LAT: "Enemy Contact. 'KIll 'em, Kill 'em'" (soldiers killing in Iraq)

[DeepModem Mom]

THE CONFLICT IN IRAQ
'Enemy Contact. Kill 'em, Kill 'em.'
U.S. troops are trained to respond instinctively during combat. But the lessons do not prepare them for the emotional distress that may arise.

By Charles Duhigg, Times Staff Writer


...."I'm confused about how I should feel about killing," says (Spc. Joshua) Dubois, who has a toddler back home. "The first time I shot someone, it was the most exhilarating thing I'd ever felt."

Dubois turns back to the road. "We talk about killing all the time," he says. "I never used to talk this way. I'm not proud of it, but it's like I can't stop. I'm worried what I will be like when I get home."...

***

Troops, returning home with untreated and little-understood mental health issues, put themselves and their families at risk for suicide and domestic violence, experts say. Twenty-three U.S. troops in Iraq took their lives last year, according to the Defense Department — an unusually high number, one official acknowledged....

***

Capt. Robert Cardona, a psychiatrist with a combat stress-control team based in southern Iraq...is familiar with the death fixation in the soldiers' conversations. "When they talk, they're trying to prove to themselves and each other that what happens doesn't matter," he says. "There's a posturing going on, and sometimes soldiers themselves don't know how much they are affected by what they see. They start to believe what they tell each other."...

***

"I enjoy killing Iraqis," says Staff Sgt. William Deaton, 30, who killed a hostile fighter the night before. Deaton has lost a good friend in Iraq. "I just feel rage, hate when I'm out there. I feel like I carry it all the time. We talk about it. We all feel the same way."...

***

"These guys grew up with video games," says Maj. John Hamilton, 50, an Army chaplain stationed in southern Iraq, where he counsels troops. "They've seen thousands of people die on TV. They're already numb. It scares me that some take delight in combat.

"Others just become immediately scared, have nightmares. But that reaction is more frowned upon."


http://www.latimes.com/la-fg-killing18jul18,1,1755382.story?coll=la-home-headlines

[opihimoimoi]

1. We will reap what we sow..... we know not what we do...sad...pitiful..

[Guaranteed]

2. Having a conscience is frowned upon.

You're supposed to ENJOY killing people. That's NORMAL.

WTF?

[stellanoir]

3. yeah and what so few recognize is that both

Timothy McVeigh and John Allen Mohammed (D.C. sniper) were veterens of Desert Storm.

Veterens of this disastrous ongoing conflict have experienced far worse than what they experienced. Can't believe that Kerry wants to keep the troops over there. Since most of Europe and the Mideast (unlike the US) are now aware of the child sodomy attrocities, how could the Iraqis not want to seek retribution by taking it out on our soldiers?

When people compare this conflict to Vietnam, I want to scream because Vietnam was comprised mainly of Buddhists. Buddhism is probably the most forgiving of all the religions. Extemists within the Muslim faith can be the most vengeful. Or I should say, equally as vengeful as our allegedly "Chistian" misleader.

[Aidoneus]

4. I fear the day these monsters return home

if their attitude doesn't get them killed first..

[Columbia]

17. Hey, we're already here

Tens of thousands of us have been back, some for over a year.

[Aidoneus]

30. Lets establish some basic concepts here.

Do you/thousands of others agree with the any/all of the following thoughts:--

1) "I'm confused about how I should feel about killing"
2) "The first time I shot someone, it was the most exhilarating thing I'd ever felt."
3) "I enjoy killing Iraqis"
4) "I just feel rage, hate when I'm out there. I feel like I carry it all the time. We talk about it. We all feel the same way"

etc etc etc.

If not, then guess what:--that wasn't who I was referring to.

A couple weapons catalog displays back, there was a really brilliant line by some pilot on the telescreens when asked how he felt about killing innocent people in some place he probably had never heard of: "We are not romantic people! We are the Sega generation!"--it's all just a fucking game to the sort of brainwashed clowns, filled to the brim with nonsense, given a joystick and then pointed towards the killzone. Some of them are interviewed in this piece, a lot I've met face to face or by email/message board/etc, and I thought it was obvious the sort I was referring to. If you're personally above that mentality, then that is great.

[izzie]

5. When my husband went on subs he was asked----

Would you mind killing women and children and he said well yes. and they said that is the right answer. It is almost funny to think of that. We like to dress up the army in all this country loving stuff but it is still teaching young men to kill on orders. Not a very nice this, is it?

[DeepModem Mom]

6. I wondered what families -- and vets -- would think of this article --

It was difficult to read, and to post.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

7. It was difficult to read, and to post.

Knowing that these 10's of thousands of people would have NEVER come over here.... NEVER done anything against us.... had we not illegally invaded their country. I hope W is satisfied with his reactionary thinking and corporate influenced decision making. May the neocons reap what they sow.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

8. Unfortunately

when soldiers who become mentally unstable because of this immoral war come home, they won't be killing neocons. They'll be killing randomly, like McVeigh and Mohammed. What we need to do is make sure there are mental health facilities and help for returning soldiers.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

10. More biz for the prisons

>>when soldiers who become mentally unstable because of this immoral war come home, they won't be killing neocons. They'll be killing randomly, like McVeigh and Mohammed. What we need to do is make sure there are mental health facilities and help for returning soldiers.<<

Many of them may end up supporting one of America's finest industries... the prison system.

[donsu]

11. mental health facilities funds are being slashed yearly by bushgang

and states are so broke or bushgang minded, that they too are slashing funds and whole programs in the mental health and physical therapy area.

don't count on our crashing, crumbling health system.

[Rose Siding]

12. And they'll be killing themselves

http://www.suicidewall.com/SWStats.html

Suicide Statistics

While doing research for his novel, Suicide Wall, Alexander Paul contacted Point Man International and was given the name of a retired VA doctor, and conducted a phone interview with him. In that interview, the doctor related that his estimate of the number of Vietnam Veteran suicides was 200,000 men, and that the reason the official suicide statistics were so much lower was that in many cases the suicides were documented as accidents, primarily single-car drunk driving accidents and self inflicted gunshot wounds that were not accompanied by a suicide note or statement. According to the doctor, the under reporting of suicides was primarily an act of kindness to the surviving relatives.

If the estimate of over 150,000 veterans of the Vietnam War having committed suicide since returning home is true, the figure would be almost three times the number killed in the war. When these deaths are added to the 50,000 plus Vietnam War casualties, the number approaches the 292,000 American casualties of World War II.

[jmcgowanjm]

23. The 'living dead"

How many of these men are there?

American Free Press estimates that as many as
30,000 American servicemen have been sent home from
Iraq and Afghanistan as a result of battle wounds, accidents
and illnesses.

The American Legion doesn’t know. The Veterans of
Foreign Wars (VFW) doesn’t know. The Disabled
American Veterans (DAV) doesn’t know. Not even the
Purple Heart Association admits knowledge, and they should
be aware of every soldier wounded in
combat.

http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/the_best_kept_.html

[Geo55]

13. uh huh

The Gov. will throw them out like yesterdays newspaper.

[progressivebydesign]

15. I'm thinking of the recent story about the solider who had panic attacks..

.. he started having panic attacks after seeing an Iraq citizen "cut in half by our gunfire", he tried to seek help and was jailed for "cowardice", punishable by DEATH. After months of wrangling, they FINALLY decided that he had a menatal condition "caused by an anti-malaria drug". They couldn't comprehend that a normal, emotionally healthy person would be bothered by gruesome death and destruction. Reminds me of the Pvt. Eddie Slovik story...

[Columbia]

19. As an Iraq vet

I had a lot of counseling support (usually from Chaplains) available to me before, during and after the deployment so I think the article was exaggerated a bit by describing the lack of such support.

Also, I would take issue about there not being discussions about the ramifications of killing another human being. Since and including basic training, this is talked about a lot including discussion of rules of engagement and the Geneva Conventions.

[DeepModem Mom]

21. Thank you for your valuable insight, Columbia --

and for your service.

[Rose Siding]

24. I wish that information got to the guy in charge!

It seems important

snip>
"The idea and experience of killing another person is not addressed in military training," says Col. Thomas Burke, director of mental health policy for the Defense Department. "Training's intent is to re-create battle, to make it an automatic behavior among soldiers."

He defends the approach, saying that if troops think too much about emotional issues in combat situations, it could undermine their effectiveness in battle.

[Columbia]

25. Out of touch leaders?

But I can only speak for myself. We often had many philosophical discussions about morality in my platoon at basic and beyond.

But again, that is only what I experienced. YMMV.

[Rose Siding]

27. That's reassuring.

I suppose it may just have been exclusive to your platoon but I'm glad to hear that there were discussions about killing or death, or how to 'handle' it. (even the words feel clumsy to me) Would you attribute that to the leadership present?

When the Abu Ghraib story broke here, I read a snip of one of Hersh's articles where he wrote about talking to a Captain in Iraq, who told Hersh of being asked by military intelligence officers to let his soldiers keep some detainees awake. The Captain said, so matter of factly, that he told them no, that his soldiers hadn't been trained for that and he knew they'd get creative if was left up to them.

You hear that and you throw up your hands and say 'Why isn't THIS guy in charge?' He gets that they'd want to do what they'd been asked, they're young and it could go wrong- he cared enough and was just smart enough to think it through.

I was glad I read about him. It's the leadership. Or lack of it.

Glad you're back. If you're back.

[Columbia]

28. It's always down to leadership

I'm also very mistrustful of officers above the rank of LtCol. Majors on down are usually decent folks, but the allure of getting that silver full bird makes people do funny things. A lot of bad things happened over there directly due to the ambition of LtCols to overperform. Quite sad really. And people died because of it.

And yes, thank you, I am back.

[teryang]

9. Unsupportable contentions

<preventable anguish>

<avoidable psychological damage>

Preventable and avoidable, yes but not after combat. The only way to prevent traumatic stress disorder is not to get traumatized. Other than that there is no prevention or cure, only treatment. It's a chronic disorder.

<Nobody wants to accept the blame for a soldier who comes home a wreck for doing what his country asked him to do,>

Who asked?

<The emotional and psychological ramifications of killing are mostly unstudied by the military, defense officials acknowledge.>

The ramifications are known, but ignored, and lied about. It was years after Vietnam that delayed PTSD was even recognized as a bona fide psychiatric disorder. Once its existence is acknowledged, then you have a whole new category of casualties and costs of war that the government would rather pretend doesn't exist.

[jdj]

20. But remember, the Eagles said to just "Get Over it"...

I'll never forgive them for that.

Shrinks didn't even name the trauma rape victims had 'til they got the terminology PTSD from the study of Vietnam veterans. And the battered wife syndrome terminology came when it was found to be the identical set of behaviors as Stockholm syndrome.

So the lesson here today is that FUCKED UP THINGS FUCK PEOPLE UP. Whether it's in war or in your living room, and it doesn't seem to matter whether you are the victim or perpetrator, you are fucked either way. Humans aren't robots, and things like this effect people, usually forever. If we evolve as a species at all and survive the next hundred years it will be by getting out of this life-hating cult of masculinity that pretends humans are not empathetic creatures. It's the empathy that destroys these soldiers, long after they have outlived their usefulness to the demons in the pentagram.

[funnymanpants]

14. diseased premise behind article

The article assumes that with just a few words, we can make people feel killing is okay:

"Killing unleashes emotions few people are prepared to deal with," Cardona says. "We help soldiers put those emotions and experiences away, so they can go into battle the next day. We set the expectation that shock is temporary, and that they will return to duty."

For cripes sake, people have trauma about killing others because it is sick! We are in the 21st century, and we need to stop killing, not find a way to make it acceptable.

[shanti]

16. OMMFG

"These guys grew up with video games," says Maj. John Hamilton, 50, an Army chaplain stationed in southern Iraq, where he counsels troops. "They've seen thousands of people die on TV. They're already numb. It scares me that some take delight in combat."

this is what i've been pointing out all along...video games have hardened our boys. we've created a monster.

[jdj]

18. War is older than video games.

I think that is a bogus argument.

I hate video games, so it's not that. But I love history, and a whole lot of human history is a bloodbath.

[belle]

22. I don't think violent video games are a cause. But they probably don't

exactly help, either. I think all the factors sort of exacerbate each other, you know? We are definitely a society that's very jaded to at least the *idea*, and the images, of violence. I do think most normal people are able to tell the difference between a video game and a real death. But something about our attitude toward violence in general is way off. And yes, it, or at least the seeds of it, were here from the beginning.

[seventhson]

26. many video games are military designs to desensitize people to killing

they then have been flooded into the market

kill rates have gone up something like 80% for soldiers in the field (something like only like 10% of soldiers on the battlefield actually tried to kill. many just tried to stay alive and did not want to kill in WWI)

the videos designed by the military were used to desensitize soldiers to killing and now the kill rate is something like 90%.

there is some great research on this and it has been the subject of litigation in one of the school shootings (not columbine)

[LittleApple81]

32. I think games follow military training. TRAINING designed

to make them kill.
SO IT IS A VICIOUS CIRCLE.

Much of the military's research on killing and battle stress began after World War II, when studies revealed that only a small number of troops — as few as 15% — fired at their adversaries on the battlefield.

Military studies suggested that troops were unexpectedly reluctant to kill. Military training methods changed, Grossman and others say, to make killing a more automatic behavior.

Bull's-eye targets used in basic training were replaced with human-shaped objects. Battlefield conditions were reproduced more accurately, Burke says. The goal of these and other modifications was to help soldiers react more automatically.

The changes were effective. In the Vietnam War, 95% of combat troops shot at hostile fighters, according to military studies.

Veterans of the Vietnam War also suffered some of the highest levels of psychological damage — possibly as many as 50% of combat forces suffered mental injury, says Rachel MacNair, an expert on veteran psychology. Most notable among the injuries was post-traumatic stress disorder, a condition contributing to violent outbursts years after soldiers leave battlefields.

[AngryAmish]

29. War has always happened

For some (perhaps many) there is a joy in killing in battle that is hard to recreate in real life. Why do you think Ted Williams volunteered for Korea? His amazing patriotism? Or maybe he just liked killing people.

It is the same adrenaline rush one gets from bungee-jumping etal, except on a higher scale.

After WW1, there were a series of US Army studies on the basic act of killing. In WW1 only about 20% of front line combat troops would deliberately shoot someone. Obviously, that is a problem if one is running an army. So the US armed forces have developed certain techniques over time to instill the killing motive in people. One I seem to recall is the pop-up target. It makes speed and accuracy of fire paramount, so one does not agonize over any thoughts of killing a person.

Killing people is difficult and it results in psychological problems for those not wired to like killing. The non-killers who do kill tend to have the most difficult problem with the act.

[Minstrel Boy]

31. "Killing Iraqis was hard at first, but after a while it got easier."

The words of Timothy McVeigh.