Iranian History Professor Sentenced to Three Years for "insulting Islamic

[papau]

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGBOUGG3WWD.html

Iranian History Professor Sentenced to Three Years for "insulting Islamic Sanctities"
By Ali Akbar Dareini
Associated Press Writer

TEHRAN, Iran (AP) - A prominent history professor twice condemned to death on blasphemy charges has been sentenced to three years in jail for insulting Islamic sacred beliefs, the judge in charge of the case said Tuesday. The defendant's lawyer said he would appeal.
Hashem Aghajari, a professor at Tehran's Teachers Training University, had his death sentence overturned twice before the charges were reduced in a third trial earlier this month.

Judge Mohammad Eslami said he issued his verdict Saturday and informed Aghajari's lawyer on Tuesday. He said the sentence also deprives Aghajari of his social rights for five years, meaning he cannot take official posts or compete in elections.

Eslami told The Associated Press that he acquitted Aghajari of charges of propagating against the ruling Islamic establishment" and "spreading lies for the purpose of inciting public opinion."

Aghajari's lawyer, Saleh Nikbakht, said the full sentence was five years, with two years suspended. Aghajari, who has already spent more than two years in jail, will serve just one year of the new sentence. <snip>

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&ncid=578&e=4&u=/nm/20040720/ts_nm/iran_aghajari_verdict_dc

Iran Academic Aghajari Handed 5-Year Jail Term

By Parinoosh Arami

TEHRAN (Reuters) - Iran's hardline judiciary sentenced dissident academic Hashem Aghajari to five years in prison on Tuesday for saying Muslims should not blindly follow their clerical leaders like "monkeys," his lawyer said.

The sentence marked a major climb down by the judiciary which originally condemned Aghajari to death for blasphemy after making the speech in 2002.

The death sentence, issued by a provincial court in western Iran, sparked some of the largest student protests for years and fueled international concern about restrictions on free speech in the Islamic state.

The blasphemy verdict was finally overturned by the Supreme Court in June (the court dismissed previous charges of blasphemy, disturbing public order, inciting public opinion and making propaganda against the system) after many senior clerics said it was too harsh. A re-trial was held in Tehran earlier this month.

"The Tehran court sentenced him to five years in prison for insulting Islamic values," Aghajari's lawyer Saleh Nikbakht told Reuters. <snip>

[tlcandie]

1. Here we go... stories of abuse, civil rights abuses and more to

justify the bombing/war/invasion..whatever! I guess that instead of going after Iran first, they needed to clear Iraq for all those bases in order to mow down all the ME countries and make them US states.

Of course, that isn't even considering the oil/gas issues.

We might as well accept the fact that it is a done deal, IF * doesn't get ousted come November. Same setup/ prestaging as Iraq.

I'm not so sure he won't start it before he leaves office no matter the outcome of the November elections.

[geek tragedy]

2. Should we just ignore the abuses of regimes like Iran and N. Korea?

There's a genocide going on in Sudan, and we're not intervening there.

Not everything revolves around aWol's agenda.

[markses]

4. You are from an abuser nation

You should ignore all abuses but your own until you have your own house in order.

[geek tragedy]

5. All nations are abuser nations

I guess we should just throw away the idea of universal human rights. Let's disband the UN bodies on human rights, and outlaw Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International while we're at it.

/contemptuous scorn

[markses]

6. Your nation is currently involved in the occupation

of a foreign nation, together with ongoing murders and torture. It is not an either/or proposition: Your nation currently has more human rights abuses on its hands than Iran, so your nation should get its house in order before commenting on other nation's problems.

Especially if it plans to handle those problems ith evn more severe human rights abuses and arbitrry bombings.

</even more contempuous scorn for utter hypocrisy>

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[geek tragedy]

11. Okay, Mr. Smart Guy, please tell me why

you're making these comments when:

1) This is a PRESS report about a human rights abuse in Iran;

2) It does not involve the U.S. government;

3) I never said the US government should be taking action against Iran.

[Mike Daniels]

17. So the world should have avoided South Africa?

Every country is guilty of some level of human rights abuses. But based on your statement not one single country in the world had no business putting pressure on South Africa because those countries hadn't solved it's human rights problems prior to taking them on.

No offense, but your argument's whacked off its ass. And if you're just referring to the U.S. in your argument then it's hypocritical as well as being whacked off its ass.

[Bridget Burke]

10. I hereby criticize human rights abuses in Iran.

The mullahs suck. Many Iranians agree with me & are trying to make their society freer. With time and the growth of a younger population they may succeed. Fighting off an invasion will not help the forces of change in Iran. They will either unite with the old men against the invaders or be seen as traitors.

You mentioned the Sudan. That's a big emergency that would benefit from assistance right now. The question: Do they have oil?

[geek tragedy]

12. The Iranian people will overthrow the Mad Mullahs

An entire generation of Iranians has grown up resenting the abuses of the Mullahs. They'll overthrow the bastards themselves. The US should not meddle--it is against their interests and against our national interest.

No UN action will be taken against the Sudan. Why? Two permanent SC members, China and France, have HUGE oil concession contracts with the Sudanese government.

[The Stranger]

23. I think the problem is one of massive and profound denial.

Focusing on another, or an "Other", perpetuates that profound and insidious denial. Focus on one's own, and the denial must recede.

[geek tragedy]

24. But I'm not in denial

and this is a major news story. Why shouldn't Americans pay attention and comment on the efforts of dissidents against repressive governments? Should we tell Egyptians and Russians and Syrians to STFU about US abuses?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

32. "Major news story"?? Compared to what? You do know....

...why these stories about Iran are coming out now, don't you? You do understand that the NeoCons are actively ramping up for an assault on Iran, don't you?

This has nothing to do with a sudden interest by the NeoCons in human rights abuses in Iran, and you should know that by now. Why is this kind of story suddenly important enough to be published NOW in the mainstream media? Hasn't this kind of activity been ongoing in Iran for quite a few years, perhaps even decades? Why no stories in the U. S. before now?

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

39. "Huge news story in Iran"?? So what? Those kinds of cases have....

...been going on for decades. You do know that, don't you? Why is this story something that Americans should suddenly be concerned about?

"Get over your paranoid obsession with NeoCons"? Right. Thanks to the NeoCon Coup of December 2000, we now find ourselves in a worsening domestic and international position. Our economy is in ruins, we are at war in the Middle East based on a pack of lies, and our international standing is next to worthless. If you think that should cause any reasonable person to become obsessed with the NeoCons, then call me "obsessed" any time you wish.

[geek tragedy]

43. If you think that press reports of legitimately important news stories in

other parts of the world are Neocon plots, there's no sense discussing things with you.

Your claim is 100% irrational. Good day.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

71. You really don't have a clue, do you?

[geek tragedy]

72. Not in your reality.

But I don't live in your reality. Have a nice day. :hi:

[Media_Lies_Daily]

75. Face it, you don't live in any "reality" at all.

[geek tragedy]

76. Where is that "ignore" function?

Ah, there it is. Nice knowing you.

[pale reflection]

48. Whe was the last time...

...you exhaled?

[geek tragedy]

61. Stories about Iran have been coming out for years.

This story actually began two years ago.

This has nothing to do with Neocons. Nothing. Nada. Zip.

This is about the internal political dynamics of Iran.

[The Stranger]

56. "But I'm not in denial."

You are actually illustrating my point right before my very eyes.

[geek tragedy]

59. Care to elaborate?

How is condemning theocracy in Iran incompatible with condemning the proto-fascists holding power in the US right now?

[pale reflection]

29. Look in the mirror.

You act like all American soldiers are responsible, when it was only a few. Even then, how many people were killed? Tortured?

Compare that to your "peace-loving" Islam that has killed 200 MILLION people in its short, bloody 1,370 year existence, and has even boastfully named a mountain range after one of your larger massacres (the Hindu Kush, where Kush comes from the word for slaughter or killer. Hindu Kush means Hindu Slaughter).

We've got problems, but don't you DARE try to take the high ground with us.

[geek tragedy]

30. Wtf?

This sounds like a rant from Little Green Footballs.

[pale reflection]

31. Nevertheless...

...it is factual.

Hindu Kush links:

http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/modern/hindu_kush.html

http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/archives/miscarticles/hkmhs.html

http://www.directory.co.uk/Hindu_Conflicts_With_Other_Religions.htm

http://www.indolink.com/Forum/Arts-Culture/messages/673.html

If you would like a detailed list of Muslim-caused wars and their casualties, I can arrange that as well.

[geek tragedy]

35. Why are you going after Islam here?

No one has said that it, or any other religion, is blame free.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[geek tragedy]

45. Um, okay. Awfully presumptuous.

Say hi to Chuckie Johnson for us.

[markses]

40. We have a systematic policy to occupy

a foreign nation and wage war against any of its people that defy our demands.

And you cathect on "islam" and "a few bad apples." Look in your own damn mirror.

[pale reflection]

46. I am

Right at you

[markses]

52. Whatever that means....

Nice comeback, champ. :eyes:

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

53. I have studied your posts - this is par for the course

:eyes:

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

49. I love reading your posts!

Have a fun time here

[The Stranger]

57. The reflection in the mirror you will not like.

Actually, Christians have mass murdered far, far more Muslims and Jews (and possibly Hindus) than any one of these religions have ever murdered Christians. The Crusades involved the bizarre, systematic declaration of religious war on Muslims and Jews and resulted in the mass murder of hundreds of thousands. Time to learn a little about history, without the neocon filter.

[pale reflection]

67. Who needs the history lesson?

"The most outrageous lies that can be invented will find believers if a person only tells them with all his might." --Mark Twain.


Your claim that Christians have killed more than any other religion is patently false. Incorrect. A LIE. It is time to set the record straight.

You claim Christians killed "hundreds of thousands" in the Crusades? From 1096 to 1270 their were eight major crusades and two children's crusades. Only two of the major crusades were successful, and six failed. History shows us that the vast majority of those who died in the crusades were European Christians, not Jews or Muslims as you falsely maintain. Perhaps you'd like to include the Spanish Inquisition? Oops, history shows us a maximum of 5,000 died there (http://biblia.com/christianity/inquisition.htm). To really get to the meat of Christianity's abuses, you've got to include Christian on Christian violence. All told, Christians have probably killed several tens of millions, including the six million Jews Hitler killed in the Holocaust.

By comparison, Muslims have killed over 200 Million, starting in 632 AD and continuing to this very hour. The Afghan historian Khondamir records that Muslims massacred 1.5 million Hindus in the the city of Herat alone in various assaults. Timer Lane killed between 50,000-100,000 captives before the Battle for Delhi alone. It was not uncommon for Muslim leaders to murder 30,000 captives on a single day(http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/modern/hindu_kush.html).

And yet you suggest Christianity is a more barbaric religion?

I love that if I'm not a tree-hugging liberal, then I'm a neocon. I'm a moderate Democrat... ever hear of those? Apparently, I'm an endangered species. I'll finish out the threads I currently post on, but I'm not long for a user community that would rather listen to their own "common wisdom" than historical facts.

[geek tragedy]

68. "Tree-hugging?"

Are you a femi-nazi?

[pale reflection]

69. irrelevant, is it not?

[geek tragedy]

70. "Tree-hugging" = right-wing Limaughtian code.

Not a term used by progressives.

[pale reflection]

77. Never said I was "progressive"

M-O-D-E-R-A-T-E.

Or does this board only support part of the Democratic party? In rural NC, "tree-hugger" is quite appropriate when we are talking about people we view to be on the fringes of the party.

[TahitiNut]

74. Genocide of 100 million Native Americans in the Western Hemisphere ...

... over 400 years - the most extensive genocide in world history, based on the morally bankrupt ethnocentric "Doctrine of Discovery" sponsored by the European Church in concert with "Holy" Monarchs of Portugal and Spain followed by the English and French.

[The Stranger]

78. Wow, you really need to watch how you throw around the word "LIE."

You claim Christians killed "hundreds of thousands" in the Crusades? From 1096 to 1270 their were eight major crusades and two children's crusades. Only two of the major crusades were successful, and six failed. History shows us that the vast majority of those who died in the crusades were European Christians, not Jews or Muslims as you falsely maintain.

In fact, in The Rationalist's Manual (1897), M. D. Aletheia ironically calculates that "The Fruits of Christianism" have actually been 56 million deaths:

Let us look for a moment at the number of victims sacrificed on the altars of the Christian Moloch:

1,000,000 perished during the early Arian schism.
1,000,000 during the Carthaginian struggle.
7,000,000 during the Saracen slaughters in Spain.
5,000,000 perished during the eight Crusades.
2,000,000 of Saxons and Scandinavians lost their lives in opposing the introduction of the blessings of Christianity.
1,000,000 were destroyed in the Holy(?) Wars against the Netherlands, Albigenses, Waldenses, and Huguenots.
30,000,000 Mexicans and Peruvians were slaughtered ere they could be convinced of the beauties(?) of the Christian creed.
9,000,000 were burned for witchcraft.

Total, 56,000,000.

And that is before the beginning of the 20th Century.

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/gunsorxp.htm

And yet you suggest Christianity is a more barbaric religion?

I love that if I'm not a tree-hugging liberal, then I'm a neocon. I'm a moderate Democrat... ever hear of those? Apparently, I'm an endangered species. I'll finish out the threads I currently post on, but I'm not long for a user community that would rather listen to their own "common wisdom" than historical facts.

Where is all of this coming from?

[hightime]

79. Perhaps you should read your own links...."numbers are just plain wrong"

Immediately following your selective passage......"Of course, a lot of these numbers are just plain wrong. Most modern scholars would put the number of witches killed in the tens of thousands -- maybe even in the hundreds of thousands -- but certainly not in the millions. This author also seems to be a bit generous in assigning numbers to the Saxons and Arians, and I can't for the life of me find out what "the Carthaginian struggle" is, so I can't confirm or deny whether a million is plausible; however, the validity of the numbers is probably not the principle argument against this list."

The site you quote
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/gunsorxp.htm

comes to the conclusion of about 30 million.

I especially like the line..."I can't for the life of me find out what "the Carthaginian struggle" is".

[The Stranger]

95. Read the links, thanks, and it sounds like a critical viewpoint offered

for the more comprehensive 1897 study that is quoted. But the point remains, do you wish to defend the difference between 56 million and 30 million dead?

Didn't think so.

[tlcandie]

80. Thanks markses.. was away all day and just reread this thread...

I think cleaning our own glass house first would go a long way before casting stones at other people's houses.

If anyone took the time to read my posts they would know that I am not against human abuse or abuse of any beings.

[pale reflection]

27. That is a bogus argument and you know it.

There was never a nation with a perfect human rights record, and there probably never will be. You are just using a stalling tactic.

One that doesn't work.

[markses]

42. Yes, it is an exaggeration

The point of which is that the American people have a primary responsibility to clean up their own house, and have very little authority to critique others. However, I agree that that doesn't absolve us of all responsibility to critique other regimes and work for change there in ethical ways. You've persuaded me of that. I was wrong to put it in absolute terms. That said, we retain the primary responsibility to clean up our own house. The danger is that we are able to ignore our own rather severe problems by focusing on the problems of the Iranians. There, stalling tactic over. Can we agree that the US human rights violations - currently ongoing - are at least as severe as the Iranian human right violation, currently ongoing?

[pale reflection]

47. Quite Frankly, Scarlett...

I cannot agree.
It isn't even close, they are so much worse than we are.

What do you know of Sharia law? Obviously very little, if you think we are no better than they. Read up on it, see how it is practiced, and if you aren't too busy throwing up from the depravity of Seventh Century, Dark Age justice, get back to me, and we can resume this discussion when you know your subject matter.

[markses]

51. I know plenty about Sharia law

It is awful, to be sure. I also know that we have murdered tens of thousands of people in the last year without as much as an ethical blink from a vast number of Americans. See those four fingers pointing back at you, Scarlett?

[TahitiNut]

26. False dichotomy

Every international treaty and rights organization firmly embeds the moral imperative of "clean up your own house before you try to clean up the world" into its language and mission.

The UN specifically abjures external enforcement in favor of national sovereignty - having, as a first resort, the nation dealing with its own behavior. The ICRC manifests this in reprting to the nation in a closed report. The ICC overtly proclaims itself as a court of last resort, ceding and assigning responsibility to the nation itself to deal with the behavior of its government and citizenry.

Self-governance is not only a human right; it's a responsibility - one which must be respected (and expected).

[geek tragedy]

28. I agree--I'm talking about

citizens from one country criticizing the human rights record of another.

I am mystified by people who see evil in the reporting of human rights abuses in Iran.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

34. I am even more mystified by posters that seem incapable of....

...recognizing the clear signals of the ramping-up of anti-Iranian propaganda in the U. S. captive mainstream media.

[geek tragedy]

36. Good luck. I hope you work things out. n/t

[Media_Lies_Daily]

41. You're the poster that seems to have your head buried in the sand.

[pale reflection]

50. Does it hurt when...

your tinfoil hat is on that tight?

Seriously, the repubs couldn't pull off something as simple as a break-in at Watergate, and yet you give them credit for controlling the world media, against their will? Let me guess --the Jews are calling all the shots, right? Or is it the Illuminati?

I just hope the padding in your cell is nice and thick...

[Media_Lies_Daily]

73. Another clueless person in the same thread. Interesting....

...does it hurt when you have to take a crap and you have to remove your head first?

[TahitiNut]

64. The 'evil' lies in ignoring or rationalizing abuses of one's own country

... while pointing at another and petulantly saying (something akin to) "Timmy is doing bad things, Mommy."

It's always much easier to preach than practice - to the point that they've become mutually contradictory.

[geek tragedy]

66. That's just plain false

Remaining ignorant of what's going on in the larger world is no solution to solving our own problems.

It IS possible to criticize Bush and the Mullahs.

[tlcandie]

81. I don't believe that I found any evil in reporting these abuses...

What I was "trying" to bring to light was the MO of this administration for invasion of another country.

I guess that isn't even an issue here? Abuse isn't good no matter who is doing the abusing. Frankly, I would hope that I would clean my own mess up before trying to be holier-than-thou and pointing a finger at someone else.

And shouldn't it be the whole world behind stuff such as this like they are pleading for help in Africa and have for years...along with many other countries?

I just don't believe that coups, wars, invasions, nor embargoes are the key to rectifying abuses or evils.

Why wait for oil and land/power/money/greed grabs to rectify the wrongs to humanity?

I guess the saddest part of this whole thread and this story ot me is that in the end it doesn't matter about any abuses or evils unless someone's property/money/power is being interrupted or threatened.

That is when I call BULLSHIT...which is what I was trying to state in the beginning.

But oh well, people here and the rest of the world only see what they want to see and go off half-cocked on some tangent that wasn't even what a reply or post was about.

Thanks and have a nice rest of the day! :hi:

[geek tragedy]

82. I was questioning why people were associating international press reports

of news happening in Iran with the Neocon agenda.


No one has given a satisfactory answer. This story had NOTHING TO DO WITH THE US GOVERNMENT.

So, if this is a press account of a sentence for blasphemy in Iran, what on God's green earth does that have to do with the Bush administration's MO?

[tlcandie]

86. Well, greek tragedy...

I'm not as sharp as you or markses or most others on this board nor as informed and educated.

IMO, this administration makes sure that things are associated, allowed to leak, gotten into the mainstream media, seen, etc. to be connected in the people's minds as to why the US regime is justified to do the things they do. I need to apologize in that I didn't address the actual story, but instead the feeling of deja vu.

You have to admit that they are pros at propaganda and all previous attempts at propaganda pale in comparison to this regime! I believe you or someone else stated that not everything is connected to the neocons. I'm sure that is true. At the same time, I would like to state that I don't believe much is out there that isn't previously approved or pushed by this administration in regards to their agenda. It is their intention to control everything and I don't believe that can be argued.

Currently, as many threads here in LBN have shown, their latest agenda seems to be Iran. So how do they sell this product to the American people? How did they sell Iraq to the American people?

I'm sure you are right in that there have been trickles of stories regarding this issue ongoing, but all of a sudden, as someone else aptly stated, the trigger is cocked towards Iran, and with stories such as this, we start wondering when we will be hearing the baby incubator and torture rooms stories just like in Iraq?

That doesn't make this story any less newsworthy or reliable. It just brings on the sense of deja vu.

I hope the whole world starts to positively address all human rights issues SOON and not selectively in regards to power/greed/oil/profits/ resources, but because living beings truly matter!

[geek tragedy]

90. People in the US already hate Iran's government

they have since 1979.

Besides, Bush does NOT want to make Iran the "real" bad guy:

1) That means we invaded the wrong country;

2) There's nothing he can do about it now (Iraq was much weaker than Iran, and now we have all of our troops occupying Iraq, so they can't be used in Iran anyway);

3) Ahmed Chalabi, the #1 buddy of the Neocons, was an Iranian agent.

Considering Bush officials gave intelligence to Iran through Chalabi, I doubt they'll want to highlight Iran's role.

If Bush does try to push Iran, it's political suicide. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, fool me twice, I won't get fooled again.

[tlcandie]

91. I hope you are right!!!

eom

[geek tragedy]

94. I always am!

;-)

[markses]

3. SAVE THE IRANIANS! Bomb 'em to pieces!

It's all in the name of Christian charity, doncha know?

[bloom]

13. that's it

we're such good guys :eyes:

[progressivebydesign]

9. So... which PR firm is working overtime for the White House now?

Babies ripped from incubators yet? Wanna bet Bush ciphoned off Iraq war funds to pay for the pre-attack public relations blitz against Iran? Where IS the 90% of that money allocated for Iraq? Hmmmmm.... I have no doubt Iran, like IRaq, is not a good place to live for some people... but I find the timing of these reports to be oh so convenient. I was wondering where Wolfowitz and Bremer and Rumsfeld were... now I know. They are back in D.C. planning our next war.

How exactly will we attack Iran? We are stretched to the limit in the two wars Bush started in the past few years... where will the soldiers come from? Draft, much?

[geek tragedy]

14. This case has been a HUGE story in Iran

If you had been paying attention to what goes on there, you wouldn't need me to tell you that.

His death sentences sparked very large demonstrations amongst Iranian students, and highlighted the widespread anger amongst young Iranians at the right-wing theocrats ruling their country.

So, unless you think Iran timed this sentence in order to help Bush justify a war against it, your theory is nonsense.

[gottaB]

15. In other news, brain drain leaves authorities scratching their heads

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=116&topic_id=6650

[geek tragedy]

16. Completely unrelated, I'm sure.

What intellectual wouldn't want to live in a rigid theocracy?

:shrug:

[hightime]

18. SSSHHHH you are not allowed to speak until everything is perfect

in "your" country. Fuck the Sudan and any other countries abuses. You do not have permission yet.

[geek tragedy]

19. If I move to a perfect country, can I speak then? n/t

[hightime]

20. Maybe markses will let you sleep over.

[geek tragedy]

21. But he doesn't say which country he (or she) lives in

There are so many perfect countries--how could I ever guess?

[markses]

37. I live in the United States of America

I agree that Americans should decry the actions of the regime in Iran. I also think that Americans FIRST responsibility is to consider their own regime in the United States, which is clearly carrying out atrocious human rights violations as we speak.

[geek tragedy]

62. I've done that.

The most important thing to do is not to criticize the Mullahs, but to understand what is going on in Iran. The important part of this story isn't that somebody got in big trouble for heresy--that's been going on for centuries.

The big story is that this guy has become the symbol of the resistance to the Mullahs in Iran, and that it is people like him, and not outsiders like Bush and Perle, that will restore democracy and legitimacy to the people and government of Iran.

[gottaB]

22. Yes, but be forewarned

The punishment for apostasy is rather severe.

[markses]

38. Oh, sure...the commisars are out to get the common sensers

Nice little fantasy there, pal. Your victim status is thoroughly secure. :eyes:

[gottaB]

54. you've had better days, markses

:)

[markses]

55. true dat

;-)

[central scrutinizer]

25. Lynne Cheney and Joe Lieberman must be proud

that their ideas have been adopted worldwide. This sounds eerily like their post-9/11 university thought police squad.

[IranianDemocrat]

58. I pray for the end of the Islamic Republic BUT....

This sounds like Bush starting to push for a new war, and there is no way I would ever support an attack on my homeland no matter what sort of regime is in place. It is not the U.S. role to determine the fate of the Iranian people.

[geek tragedy]

60. What does Bush have to do with this?

This is a story about an Iranian court proceeding that has been drawing international attention for years now, and sparked widespread protests amongst the future leaders of Iran. What the hell does that have to do with aWol?

The Iranians sentenced him, and the press is reporting that fact. Bush isn't involved.

[Karenina]

63. You seem to be purposely missing the point

which is being made in the context of the current tune the Might Wurlitzer is grinding out. Iran was moving along quite well until the American gub'mint did it's ready, fire, aim bit. Now the trick is to portray THOSE EVIL IRANIANS as subhumans, to be treated with the same deference and respect shown the Iraqis. :eyes:

I, for one, weary of reading ignorant American critiques on other cultures. YOUR SHIT IS STINKING UP THE ENTIRE WORLD. MOST of you have NEVER been off the continent. YOU HAVE NO CLUE. Maybe if you can bring yourself to deal with that FIRST, you might be able to be of some help. However in the condition you find yourselves in now, if you've bothered to look around you, FUGGEDABOUDIT.

[geek tragedy]

65. Wag your finger at someone else & spare me boilerplate anti-Americanism

If you don't want to hear American opinions, don't hang out on an American discussion board. It's quite simple. Americans have a right to participate in discussions about principles and human rights.

And you are the one who's missing the point and making shit up.

This sentence happened. Itis a fact.

It is newsworthy. Both to Iranians and the larger world.

Americans should follow what's going on in Iran. The people of Iran are living under a theocracy. But, brave men like this guy are resisting. It is up to Iranians to get rid of their oppressive government, not anyone else.

I was not critiquing Iranian culture. This article was not authored by the United States government. The discussion of this issue is not treating Iranians like subhumans.

[Minstrel Boy]

83. I could google up similar stories from Egypt and Pakistan no problem.

But those are, of course, strategic allies of the United States. So let's not.

Let's leave the totalitarian morality arguments to PNAC, shall we?

[geek tragedy]

84. No you can't.

Find a recent story about a famous dissident whose persecution inspired widespread protests.

Seriously, disliking the Bush regime is no reason to become nihilists regarding the rest of the world.

[Minstrel Boy]

85. Don't tell me what I can't do.

Never heard of Saadeddin Ibrahim?

[geek tragedy]

87. That case isn't going on currently,

if you were implying that the media/government is paying attention to this case but not that one.

And, when that case was going on, it was covered as well:

http://usinfo.state.gov/regional/nea/summit/text2003/0519ibrahim.htm

So what's your point--that what goes on inside Iran isn't worth noticing or discussing because Bush doesn't like their government?

[tlcandie]

88. greek tragedy, didn't this regime state that they were going to

do the coup thing? Shoring up the uhappy people and inciting revolution from within the borders of Iran.

I'm sure many are very unhappy, but just how much of this is due to the hand of the US? Just like in Haiti... and South America?

Didn't we do the same with the insurgents or those opposed to the Baathists in Iraq? Isn't that what Chalabi and others were connected with? Trying to oust Sadaam from the inside and getting all those nice juicy tidbits of intelligence for the invasion?

Will other countries come to the aide of Americans being unjustly detained without legal representation after 9-11? Human rights abuses within our borders...our states...people put to death without all the facts being allowed to come before the courts to where even those who cuff the inmates to the death tables resign in disgust? Will someone come here to make sure we have a legal presidential elections like they are doing in South American and have done in other countries? Will someone come here and stop the blackout the mainstream media has over our citizens from seeing the truth? Will someone come here and delcare the Patriot Act illegal and throw it out the door? Will someone come here and stop the bleeding or our jobs, our money, our health, our forests, our children, our veterans?

[geek tragedy]

89. Why is it so hard to believe that Iranians don't like theocracy?

The idea that Iranians need Americans to convince them that theocracy and dictatorship is bad is really insulting to Iranians.

This kind of thinking is apologism for despots. All they have to do is round up dissidents, call them American agents, and some people will nod their heads and agree.

Again, this incident HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION. THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION DIDN'T CONDUCT THAT TRIAL AND IT DIDN'T WRITE THE ARTICLE. BUSH AND THE US GOVERNMENT AREN'T EVEN MENTIONED IN THE ARTICLE.

Yes, Virginia, there are unpopular despots and dictatorships outside of the US.

[tlcandie]

92. You are sooo funny....

I never said I didn't believe that the Iranians didn't like theocracy... sigh. Why are you trying to say something I didn't say?

I don't think I've insulted Iranians. Yes, I think that they are able to protest themselves. Do I think it's ONLY Iranians? NO. Do I think they are getting US support and prompting from the inside? YES. Is that a bad thing? YES. Is it insulting to Iranians? YES.

Evidently, we do need Iranians to remind us that dictatorship and theocracy is a bad idea... :eyes:

greek, I'm not into debate or argument for the sake of arguing, so if you feel you've won.. Yay!!!!!

I am busy trying to pack to fly and get my grandbaby who is much more important than a DU thread. :bounce:

So, I will not be posting any more responses and you can say that I failed to prove my point, or that when the tough get going the weak fall on the floor or whatever dribble is usually attributed to no reply posts on flinging doodoo on threads.

:hi:

[nolabels]

93. Frankly I think they are couple a steps ahead of much of the US population

The following is the text of the speech made by Mohammad Parvin, MEHR’s representative, at the University of Washington, Seattle on May 17, 2003.

US-Iran Relations >From Containment to Empowerment
(snip)
What is the nature of Iranian’s struggle?

The struggle of the Iranians for freedom and democracy, manifested in their demonstrations, strikes, and non-participation in the so-called elections is a non-violent struggle to challenge the authority of the regime and to denounce its legitimacy in representing them. This is the essence of the freedom movement in Iran. It is a civil disobedience movement to prove that the Islamic Regime doe not have any legitimacy. We will see the end of the Islamic Regime when such movement becomes organized, independent from outside interferences, and mobilizes thousands and millions of people to disobey the regime. This is a huge task; but it has to be done and can be done.

The power of a regime can only be measured in terms of the degree of the obedience of the people. Without obedience, power does not mean anything. If you don’t submit, don’t yield, and don’t obey or follow regime’s rules and regulations, then you have denied its power. This is how our people will topple the Islamic Regime of Iran.

As a side note, since there are a lot of discussions about referendum in Iran, I should indicate in passing that it would be very naïve to assume that this regime will yield to a referendum and submit its power to the will of the people. A call for a referendum is an excellent tool to challenge the legitimacy of this regime. It is a challenge to all those who still want to portray this regime as the representative of Iranians. Non-violence struggle is the method chosen by our people. This certainly would not be honored by the Islamic regime. The regime will attempt to change such effort to make it violent and bloody on its own terms. That is the time when the determination of non-violence advocates and hopefully millions of its followers will be tested. It will take much more than a referendum to get rid of IRI.

Unfortunately, the Islamic Regime is not the only obstacle against the struggle of the Iranian people for freedom and democracy. Outside Islamic Regime, Iranians must face interest-driven governments, lobby groups with shady funding, and an American journalistic and academic community that lack honest reporting and scholarship. These individuals and groups legitimize Iranians’ oppressors.
(snip)
http://www.golshan.com/english/articles/20030628d.htm