U.S. Marine Force Pulls Out of Taliban Stronghold Killing More Than 100

[BaysideLiberal]

KABUL, Afghanistan (AP) - U.S. Marines have pulled out of a Taliban stronghold in southern Afghanistan after killing more than 100 enemy fighters, their commander said Thursday.

The 2,000-strong force, which lost just one Marine, has withdrawn to an American air base in the southern city of Kandahar and is preparing to leave the country, Col. Frank McKenzie said. That withdrawal had already been announced.

The contingent, part of the 22nd Marine Expeditionary Unit, deployed in late March in an attempt to divert militants from attacking preparations for historic elections

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGBAV1AZYWD.html


comment : at least they are pulling out.....but killing 100 thats hard to take

[msmcghee]

1. Are you being sarcastic or . . .

. . do you really like the Taliban in that conflict?

[Tempest]

5. The killing of any person should be distasteful

Are you that jaded of a human being not to feel at least the slightest sorrow at the death of another human being?

They are fighting against an occupying force.

Wouldn't you do the same?

[msmcghee]

32. The way I understand it . .

. . the Taliban harbor al Quada and protect bin Laden and his followers. Bin Laden planned and attacked the United States and killed over 3000 innocent Americans. He'd like to do it again if he could.

Would you suggest that we encourage him to get counseling - and thereby consider ourselves safer from further attack?

No matter what ill-conceived foreign policy decisions were made by us leading to his desire to kill Americans - that still does not justify his doing so. He is a criminal and sworn enemy to you and me, as are the Taliban.

Even if you disagreed with those decisions when they were made, you didn't feel strongly enough to denounce your citizenship and leave. Therefore, you and I, just as much as the RW zealots who led us down that road are just as responsible for those decisions. It's called democracy.

If you lament their deaths perhaps you could donate to their war support fund - maybe even join up and become a freedom fighter for the Taliban. Until then I suggest that you and your family and friends are safer with 100 less Taliban trying to kill Americans. Yes, it is unfortunate that people like to kill each other. I feel bad about that. But, such is the human condition.

I suggest you pick one side or the other and support it. But it is disingenuous to sit back and enjoy the freedom and easy life that you have here, while agonizing over the death in combat of those who want to kill us.

I love America and want to make it better through the political process. I don't want our enemies who are tring to kill us to win. Do you?

[shadu]

35. Where do you come across crap like that?

You have mastered the non sequitur.

[Tempest]

56. My thought exactly

Talk about not addressing the issue.

[wackywill]

57. No but

are you nieve enough to believe they were all Taliban or that there were only 100?

[ConservativeDemocrat]

63. Well said...

Bush has made this country less safe precisely because he crippled the war against Al Quada and the Taliban in favor of attacking Iraq.

There is no evidence whatsoever that if the U.S. had been more "liberal" during the Bush or Clinton administrations, it would have dissuaded Osama Bin Laden from attempting to attack us on 9/11. OBL and the Taliban are attempting to establish a fascist Islamic theocracy across the Middle East and the world. And, as the world's foremost national power, we are naturally a target no matter what we do.

Al Quada and their Islami-fascist sympathizers are a lot like the Nazis: some people just need killing.

- C.D.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BaysideLiberal]

3. ???

Pretending? Thanks for the warm welcome.

[Tempest]

6. Welcome Bayside

You'll have to excuse some of those here.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DS1]

9. How about you use the alert function and let the mods decide

How's that for an innovative idea?

[markses]

11. I'll take it under advisement

Thanks.

[DS1]

22. It's only the rules you agreed to, after all

:eyes:

[Tight_rope]

36. Welcome to DU BaysideLiberal!

[daleo]

4. Who knows about these body counts?

The fact that they pulled out shows this was no victory, unless they are planning to fight a war of attrition in Afghanistan. Body counts are notorious for being inflated. The phrasing is suspect.

"McKenzie said he "would not challenge" reports that more than 100 enemy fighters were killed during the Marines' four-month tour in Uruzgan, home of fugitive Taliban leader Mullah Omar, and neighboring areas. He declined to give an exact figure."

"One Marine was killed and 11 injured in combat operations, often conducted jointly with Afghan troops. None of the Afghans were killed, but about 15 were wounded, he said."

[yellowcanine]

10. I thought the U.S. military didn't "do body counts" anymore. Am I missing

something? Coulda swore I heard that somewhere.

[amandabeech]

68. More and more,

our adventures in Afghanistan and Iraq resemble what I remember watching Vietnam on TV.

General Westmoreland's nightly body counts became absolutely gruesome theater.

If the shrub is re-selected, maybe we'll see another general every night.

[Az_lefty]

7. these are real terrorists we're fighting in Afghanistan

I've no sympathy for these bastards

[TahitiNut]

12. And you're certain of that because ...?

:eyes:

[Az_lefty]

14. because it's not Iraq

[markses]

16. Eminently logical

:eyes:

[Az_lefty]

20. yes it is logical

with all we've been through with fighting the Taliban, I doubt there are
any left that are solely religious.

[markses]

21. Putting the cart before the horse

TahitiNut is asking you whether the people being killed are terrorists. You say you're certain they are, because they are not in Iraq. A farmer who has nothing to do with terrorists but dislikes a bunch of white dudes trapsing over his shit might not be in Iaq, but that doesn't make him a terrorist. You assume that everyone the US Marines report killed as a "terrorist" is actually a terrorist; you except the definition without question.

[ilovenicepeople]

27. Don't you mean FLAWGICAL

Which is worse a real terrorist or a fake one?:hi:

[TahitiNut]

48. By that "logic" neither is Idaho. Kill 'em all.

:eyes:

[DrWeird]

13. No, they're just fundamentalists.

Probably never had any intention of terrorist attacks against the US. At least until recently..

[jdj]

17. I understand the points being made here, but the taliban are scum.

Period. Think of the women, and how they are treated.

Human rights violations are human rights violation, in the name of religion or the state, it doesn't matter.

[DrWeird]

19. So you're saying they're scum, because they violate human rights.

Kind of like US troops?

[frylock]

15. the taliban may be a repressive group of troglodytes, but terrorists?

I don't recall how many Taliban were involved with 9-11.. oh wait, there were ZERO. The war in Afghanistan is all about the Caspian pipeline, and has absolutely nothing to do with the War Against Terror™. I mean, since when did liberating the people of Afghanistan have ANYTHING to do with fighting terrorism? If shrub was sincere about eliminating the threat of terrorism, we'd be over in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.

[jdj]

18. That little 'tm' says alot.

It needs to be after all of their slogans. I wish I knew how to make one with this keyboard.

[KansDem]

25. Copy and paste the symbol...

Highlight the ™ and strike Ctrl-C. Type what you want (ie, a slogan) then strike "Ctrl-V" The symbol should then appear...

[JohnOneillsMemory]

46. Thanks for the tip.

Goodbye™.

[ilovenicepeople]

28. TWATtm.

The war against terror is starting to smell fishy(no offense to fish)

[Media_Lies_Daily]

24. 15 Saudis and NO Iraqis or Afghans.

[maxsolomon]

29. the taliban sheltered al queda

they did. they drew funding, inspiration, training, and tactics from them.

in some ways, the people of afganistan were HAPPY when the taliban came as they established order & safety. the cost was the repression. now the warlords & lawlessness are back. and the taliban are regrouping.

there should have been 250,000 US & UN troops there after 9-11. RAWA should have been given the reins of the civilian administration. the taliban should have been imprisoned, killed, or exiled & the borders sealed. warlords should have been incorporated into a civilian controlled military or ruthlessly eliminated. every nook & cranny of that country should have had infrastructure improvements - roads, sanitation, water, power. a massive literacy & education program undertaken. something besides an effing madrassa.

afganistan was the place to demonstrate our goodwill, not iraq. they're NOT arabs, but they are muslim. & it would have cost a fraction of what we've thrown down the iraq hole.

[shadu]

33. Do you think it was ever Bush's intent to demonstrate goodwill?

I think that was/is the farthest thing from his mind.

[maxsolomon]

60. well, no, but it is MY intent

and should have been OUR intent. we helped wreck that place in the 80's, and we could have & should have fixed it.

[pale reflection]

61. Nice try, geography major

The Caspian Sea is not within 500 miles of Afghanistan. But you wouldn't spread false information, would you?

As for why the US went to Afghanistan, if you hadn't toked your short-term memory completely away, you'd remember Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda were operating from Afghanistan under the direct protection of Mulluh Mohammed Omar. Afghanistan had become al Qaeda's sanctuary and primary base of operations.

We invaded because bin Laden was in Afghanistan, and may still yet be.

Any other stupid comments?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

26. Yeah? How many of the Taliban were on those hijacked airliners?...

None.

****Well then, how many Afghans?

None.

****Okay...I bet there were a BUNCH of Iraqis!!

Nope...not a one.

****But...but...then WHO were the hijackers?

Fifteen of them were from Saudi Arabia.

****What!!!???

Think that's something? How about this...five attended U. S. military schools like Foreign Officers School in Montgomery, AL, flight school at Pensacola, FL, and language school at Monterey, CA.

Want to fight REAL "terrorist bastards" masquerading as a legitimate government? Go to Washington, DC...quite a few hang out in places like the White House, the Pentagon, Congress, and the Supreme Court.

[Wednesdays]

23. Pulling out?

I thought we were winning. :shrug:

[rocktivity]

31. You're right , Wednesdays

If they won, why are they leaving? Wouldn't it make more strategic sense to occupy it?

:headbang:
rocknation

[biftonnorton]

30. Dang Buddha Destroyers, Anyway

What a mess. I remember reading an Atlantic article about them back before they turned the ancient statues of Buddha into dust, back when they were our buddies for stamping out the opium farming. Ah, the good ol' days.

[Gyre]

34. Lets run but ...

lets show em who's boss by killing a bunch of them while we're running. Semper Fi!:) Good little killers!

Gyre

[Chicago Democrat]

37. Killed "100 Enemy Fighters"

Amazingly incompetant "fighters" this enemy is....

How do you define a "enemy fighter", sargeant?

Answer: Anyone dead is an enemy fighter.

Wanna bet they were just slaughtered for fun? Were they playing "Let the Bodies Hit The Floor" through their headsets while doing it?

[UVAlaw]

38. Afghan war is justified

I don't recall a lot of complaints about Taliban deaths when we first invaded Afghanistan. While I agree that all human life should be cherished and it is unfortunate that people are still being killed in Afghanistan the Taliban are harboring Al Qaeda terrorists and probably Osama. However much I disagree with the war in Iraq the war in Afghanistan was fully justified. Even though Bush is probably the worst president in the history of the US the invasion of Afghanistan is what any US president would have done, the difference being a competent president would not have pulled our forces out while the job was half finished so he could invade Iraq.

[uhhuh]

47. And we know the reported kills are Taliban

Because the government says so.
It's gotta be the truth, right?

We also know there was only one soldier lost because the military says so.
So that's the truth, right?

[bobbyboucher]

52. A competent president would have been there on 9/12.

Not 30 days later. But Shrubby thought they would be "traditional hijackings".

[Chicago Democrat]

59. I suggest these are not Taliban.... Do they have "property of taliban"

stamped on their heads. I suspect highly this last minute slaughter.

[UVAlaw]

62. Why the dislike of the military?

I still don't understand the rampant distrust of the US military on this discussion board. Granted it is the most conservative organization in the US (about 90% republican) but that doesn't make its members evil. For the most part they are "patriotic" Americans doing what they believe is right.

While I may disagree with them (and the republican party) on issues like gun control, civil rights, tax cuts, etc., I appreciate the fact that they are in the Middle East and Asia getting shot at while everyone on this board is sitting nice and safe in the US. Additionally, while the military is notorious for being secretive and spinning anything that would make them look bad (see Abu Ghraib) they aren't the SS or Wermacht, in fact most of them are just like you.

[Chicago Democrat]

64. Killing 100, capturing none, just before "leaving" is highly suspect

I trust nothing that comes from this government, especially the military, which lies as a matter of course.

The first casualty of war is the truth.

DU is pretty liberal and anti-war.

Any legitimacy of the Afghan War was lost after Iraq and the atrocities. They have no idea who the enemy is and they never did, this entire War on "Terrorism" is a fraud perpetrated on the American public. How can you have a "war" on a feeling? Who exactly is our enemy? Apparrently it is all of Islam. Or "evil". Its total bullshit.

Every single man those soldiers killed was murdered. Prove to me that it is otherwise! You can't because they're dead. For the crime of living in a "Taliban Stronghold". Bet they didn't attack first.. Prove to me otherwise! You can't because they're dead. Killing innocents people is murder! Why is that so hard to understand? Our soldiers are murderers, boy I bet they're proud. Our President is a murderer 50,000 times over. He kills innocents and rejoices in it! Some Christian.. More like the Church of Satan. That is sick. That is wrong. THAT IS REAL EVIL.

[UVAlaw]

65. Eyes wide open

I'm pretty liberal and anti-war myself or I wouldn't be at this web site but I try to avoid claims that are totally baseless. While the current administration cannot be trusted the military as an instution isn't to be blamed for where we are in Afghanistan or Iraq. You make a lot of claims about murders but fail to point to any specific evidence that US soldiers murdered anyone. The U.S. soldiers in Afghanistan don't have to be attacked first in order to kill the enemy--the point of war is to shoot them before they can shoot you. Being liberal and anti-war doesn't necessarily include naivete or ignorance. We need to be aware that there are those in the world who would kill us simply for who we are. The fact that they wish us ill doesn't give us any right to wage war but when they harbor terrorists who have attacked us then we do have every right (moral or legal) to attack.

[Chicago Democrat]

67. After Abu Garaib, after the lies use to justify this war, after the report

that our ex CIA "prime minister" Allawi just killed 6 in cold blood, after seeing Michael Moore's movie and listening to "Let the bodies Hit The Floor", after sleeping with a closeted gay Marine trainer who is now training boys to go to Afghanistan, after watching my own friend turn into a monster after his Iraq experience, I think I have a pretty good IDEA OF WHAT TO EXPECT when the Marines go on one last massacre before heading home and WHAT THEY WOULD SAY.


Show me pictures. Show me evidence. OR ELSE SHUT UP.

[UVAlaw]

69. There is NO evidence to support your claims

There are some unsubstantiated rumors that Alawi may have killed some Iraqi citizens--I think I'll hold off on believing those just yet. The fact that lies were used to go into Iraq does nothing to detract from the validity of the actions in Afghanistan. You do remember September 11, attacks on the U.S. by Al Qaeda operatives? That is why we invaded Afghanistan. The war in Iraq is a totally different animal. The government either lied or exaggerated the evidence. Their actions don't detract from the U.S. military or their operations. Finally, the prisoner abuses in Abu Ghraib and other illegal acts by US soldiers should be punished but should not tarnish every soldier fighting in Afghanistan or Iraq.

[Chicago Democrat]

70. No evidence is being allowed access to...

Look, I am a Democrat. I love you for enduring my invective and flaming and I'm sorry for being so upset. Its been a very difficult year and I just have a different opinion about what this one story means. I hope we can just agree to disagree and please understand those things I said are my opinion. I understand that you think Afghanistan operation is "good" like 99% of Americans do and my views are for sure outside the main.

First of all, I thought the Afghan "War" was over! So why are we still killing them by the 100s. Why shouldn't every single person a US military person kills be investigated like a murder? Shouldn't the soldiers have to show that they were at least all men of fighting age? Why hasn't this been a big news story , 100 Taliban fighters killed after all? Why hasn't the villagers been interviewed to say their story. Why are their no pictures of the bodies which would dispell all suspicion? Why?

[JustSwell]

39. Gee.....

....such respect for our young Marines.

Impressive.

[Aidoneus]

40. considering the rampant killing sprees and massacres..

carried out in Fallujah, for instance, or VN or any number of places before and after, and considering further the typically curt and dishonest press briefings on such matters, respect against such assumptions is to be earned and not expected.

(edited in a sentence fragment--"considering further ... on such matters"--that curiously didn't post..)

[JustSwell]

41. "rampant killing sprees and massacres"?

Really?

That's quite a broad brush with which to paint them all.
I doubt you will ever "respect" anyone who serves, with the exception of deserters (except bush, of course).

We all see the world we wish to see, I guess.
Enjoy yours.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bobbyboucher]

55. Speaking of broad brushes.

Check out this world:

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/bodycount.htm

Enjoy.

[UVAlaw]

43. Any factual info to support your accusation

I am unaware of any confirmed massacres in Afghanistan or Iraq. I'll not argue the fact that there were serious human rights violations in Vietnam that were unfortunately not punished. But I have to say that human rights violations are unfortunately a part of war. Any war you consider, be it WW II, Korea, or Vietnam there were atrocities on both sides. That doesn't change the fact that the US actions in Afghanistan were justified and still are.

[bobbyboucher]

54. Heard about the Taliban

slaughtered in the shipping containers? Doubt it.

[Aidoneus]

58. That wasn't really the Marines, strictly sticking to the subject..

That was the pet project of (perhaps) future Afghan President Rashid `Abd al-Dostum, if memory serves (if not him, then some other US/Russian-backed "Northern Alliance" gang scion). Hell of a nice guy, if you like that "professional turncoat"/"mass murderer that looks really cool" type. It was done under American supervision and for the benefit of. There's a fine documentary on the matter that was a smash in Europe, didn't really break wind over here.

I made a mistake leaving myself limited to that military order only; most of the 'interesting' atrocities were done by air. Entire villages were wiped off the map in Afghanistan, though I cannot credit the Marines for that. The Shuhadah Cemetary (ex-soccer field) in al-Fallujah is their handiwork to take pride in, however.

[reprobate]

42. From reading many other posts in this forum,......

....it seems like our success in afghanistan is just about as good as our success in Iraq. We control only Kabul in afghanistan as we control only Bagdad in Iraq.

Never believe anything the administration says. Every word out of their mouths is a lie, designed to cover up their complete incompetance.

[JustSwell]

45. People have....

....very little understanding of the military.
Posts here prove this.
"Success" in Afghanistan is not measure by the same metric as that in Iraq, or WWII.
Holding terrain isn't the goal in Afghanistan or Iraq.
Nor are body counts.

[reprobate]

50. Of course you're right, JS.

In fact we don't even 'control' Bagdad. Only the green zone.

I assume you are speaking of the impossibility of winning an insurgent war. When the indigenous people support the insurgents, a military force will not be able to win, because the insurgents win by not losing.

Don't remember who said that, but it seems true on its face.

You'd think we would remember the lesson that Hanoi taught us so painfully.

[Aidoneus]

49. Baghdad in Iraq isn't under control

Only the so-called "Green Zone" (aside from the pesky carbombs & mortars that hit it, daily/nightly in the case of the latter), highways & major roads into it when needed (watch out for the fireworks), besieged military bases around the city and occasionally a few scattered portions of a few neighborhoods.--that's it. A dozen clashing stripes of the resistance or just ordinary people run the rest.

The Mayor of Kabul fares slightly better in his city, though the provices south & southeast are loosely held by the mujihadeen. Provinces north and west run by far more unsavory types.. it is surreal that a man like Dostum (a man far more monsterous than any and all of the Talib commanders combined several times over) can still walk around freely, let alone run for office.

[lucky777]

51. We've always been at war with the Taliban (Eastasia) . . .

We had the Taliban invited to Texas to discuss oil and taking classes in Nebraska -- they were potential friends till they harbored bin Laden. Why did they do that? Because he was also a fundamentalist but also because he built hospitals, schools, etc. Now that bin Laden is long gone, why are we still there? Who are we fighting and why? Is it just to protect the temp government that we set up with Karzai, an Unocal executive puppet?

I agree that the Afgan war was not as bad as the Iraq war, but there is still something wrong about it. . .

[The_Casual_Observer]

66. They needed to get a friendly government in there

because of the pipeline project. My though is chimpy was just waiting for Bin Laden to do something, like blow up another foreign embassy or two and use it as a pretext to topple the Taliban. The prevailing though was that the attack would be foreign and "harmless". However, Bin Laden surprised them with 9/11 instead.

[Zynx]

53. I bet that number is overstated.