CNN Breaking...Bush's payroll records now found

[maddezmom]

will look for a link.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

1. HOLY DEEPLY SUSPICIOUS TIMING, BATMAN!

[maddezmom]

6. no shit...we have them, we don't have them...oh here they are

but they don't prove squat. Still can't find a link :(

[papau]

AP refuses to say if they show any payments - I wonder why?

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/B/BUSH_MILITARY_RECORDS?SITE=FLTAM&SECTION=POLITICS&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

Pentagon Releases Bush's Guard Records

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Pentagon on Friday released payroll records from President Bush's 1972 service in the Alabama National Guard, saying its earlier contention the records were destroyed was an "inadvertent oversight."

The records cover July through September of 1972, when Bush was working as a campaign volunteer in Alabama. The future president had been transferred from the Texas Air National Guard to the Alabama unit so he could stay in Alabama.<snip>

Records of Bush's National Guard service released previously did not conclusively show whether Bush fulfilled his service requirements in 1972 and 1973, during the Vietnam War.<snip>

In a letter to The Associated Press Friday, Pentagon freedom of information chief C.Y. Talbot said the records couldn't be found earlier because officials were using the wrong index number.

The Associated Press was evaluating the documents.

[MallRat]

55. They're still looking at them. Give them a little time.

Give them a couple of hours to get the story right. We don't misinterpretation to muddy the waters.

-MR

[aquart]

122. Lying is now an "inadvertent oversight"???

Think they turned up because even the NYT didn't buy the story?

[jamesinca]

153. I thought his TANG service was a special unit

I thought it did not allow for transfer out of the unit. If he was being paid in AL during this time, does that take him out of the TANG unit? I thought he was denied permission to serve in the AL guard because of the TANG unit he was in? Will the military continue to pay you if you don't show up? I want to see records of his performance and evaluations! I don't want a piece of paper saying he went to the dentist, that only tells me he took advantage of the benefits, not actually doing work! I want this to be investigated, not swept under the carpet again.

[Ironpost]

200. With the little* mans track record I'd say they are forgeries...yes

[mzmolly]

66. WHAM! BAM! UMPH!

POW!

:P

[movonne]

72. I think they have been doctored!!!!

[Jack Rabbit]

188. Sounds like a typical Friday, post-911 Commission Rpt news dump to me

About what is there to be suspicious?

[loathesomeshrub]

2. How does this show that he was there? It shows he got paid, not that he

was there...

[kentuck]

18. Right.....

Was it mailed to him or did he pick it up in person??

[Pepperbelly]

173. after 4 yrs in active duty, i was in the reserves for a couple of years ..

and in order to get paid, you had to sign in.

And they always documented shit that you did. Training or whatever.

From my understanding, they are showing no pay for the sumbitch during the relevant time frame.

[r_u_stuck2]

186. I was NG from '69 - '75

I was in the Alabama and Florida NG. I worked in Headquarters & Heardquarters company typing personnel records and Special Orders.

The reporters are looking in the wrong place. They need to look at all the Special Orders from each unit Bush served in. Any deviation from normal drill dates or any special detachment orders will be there. Believe me, nobody goes anywhere without Special Orders.

All a good reporter needs to do is to get to a person who was assigned as a full time employee at the National Guard unit that knows the in's and outs of personnel records. Anyone who has served in that capacity also knows about "Morning Reports" These also reflect the number and rank of everyone who shows up for drill.

[brianmattis]

184. "Honorable" discharge proves it?

Any one who can get special treatment to get in can get
special treatment on discharge.

[TankLV]

194. NPR reporting that the payrecords DO NOT cover the periods in question.

His "service" is still missing.

There are NO pay records for more than a few months!

This is the reason for the "dump".

The fecal matter is only just now beginning to hit the air movement device.

[DoYouEverWonder]

3. Somebody must have finally found

an old mimeograph machine, so they could make faked copies.

[Hawkeye-X]

5. Or a useless printer.

:P

[fdr_hst_fan]

4. But will they be

COMPLETE AND UNDOCTORED?

:wtf: :puke:

[arcane1]

7. announced on the Friday News Dump, of course

[maddezmom]

9. like this one- Air Force Spends $2.6 Billion on Planes

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=542&ncid=542&e=1&u=/ap/20040723/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/pentagon_pricey_planes

[arcane1]

17. but that's money well-spent!

if you are a crony at Lockheed-Martin, anyway. That's the name of the game

:puke:

[Cocoa]

14. and right before Bush disappears to Texas

I don't think he wants to be answering questions about this, for whatever reason.

[Catfight]

8. Michael Moore gave him a copy of his copy of the original before

the alterations. Next in news, Bush blows Michael Moore a kiss.

[onehandle]

10. So what?

I can be be snorting coke off of the belly of an underage prostitute in Mexico and still collect a check. If he was paid, he needs to pay us back.

[Sporadicus]

11. Found a Link

National Review (of course) :eyes:

http://www.nationalreview.com/york/bush3.pdf

[ewagner]

33. Okay, looked at them

On the records on the day of the month there is a 2-digit code. Does that indicate the nature of the duty?

[rawstory]

49. LINK IN TEXT, WITH INFO

I examined the records and wrote a brief -- more soon:

http://www.rawstory.com

[rawstory]

80. The story is there ... but did he MEET his requirements?

That's the question I can't immediately answer...even after reviewing the docs and writing the story. How many days does he need to have served?

[papau]

50. 35 days in 72 - but no hours - no pay amounts - no sign in sheets

These are not the records that the Guard saved in those days

This is Bull

And it proves nothing.

[King Coal]

85. Why is all that crap blacked out?

I wonder if I can black out crap when I get audited?

[MrBenchley]

12. So the records that he says he already released

that were supposedly were destroyed have been "found"...

Uh-HUH.

[maddezmom]

13. yup that about sums it up

:)

[MrBenchley]

34. Well, I believe it....(snicker)

wonder if the WMDs and the anthrax killer were in the same folder?

[maxrandb]

25. Will Rush and Hannity

Suggest that someone must have had them stuffed down their pants or in their socks? Of course not!

[fob]

111. Must be the same operation that killed the one legged Zarqawi

and then brought him back to life AND grew his missing leg back!!

We really do have access to alien technology.

[ewagner]

15. and, of course,

he's in Crawford for a week so there won't be any comments........

[Beetwasher]

16. And What Praytell Do They Show?

What information can be gleaned from them?

[democrat in Tallahassee]

24. I think you are paid for the days you are present? I think I remember

reading that

[Pathwalker]

19. FRIDAY DUMP! Are they real? Are they fake?

My, what timing...

[underpants]

23. We will have to wait for McClellan to wave them around to the press

See they are right here so that settles that

Uh do you mind if we could see them and get copies

Uh some copies will be available to those of you who we like

[Sporadicus]

20. Has Anyone Suggested Reviewing SSA or IRS Records?

It seems to me that - if (and that's a mighty big IF) these records are valid, Social Security should have matching records. The IRS should also have matching records for when he paid his taxes.

[C_eh_N_eh_D_eh]

32. Yeah, right. Since when does a Bush pay income tax?

Or Social Security, for that matter.

[papau]

58. Excellent point - lets see the SS records - any bets that these don't

show up in the SS record?

and that the media does not follow up on the zero amount recorded by Soc Security?

[azmesa207]

96. Review SS records

I recently received records from the SSA and it had all the pay records from My service in the Navy 1957 to 61 They should have Bush's to.

[spooky3]

145. It's a good idea but it still won't prove that he actually worked for it.

[kskiska]

21. It's just so strange

that only HIS records have a way of getting lost, then found.

[Dover]

22. Who says the Bush regime isn't transparent?! LMAO!

Predictable and transparent as clock work.

[Worst Username Ever]

26. So what does that prove

That he actually showed up like he was suppose to? Isn't that was you are SUPPOSED to do in the national guard??

It's like Chris Rock talking about parents who brag that they "take care of their kids."

"You're SUPPOSED to, you dumb motherfucker!""

[bushisanidiot]

27. "I was lost, but now am found"

it's AMAZING!! PRAISE THE LARD!

[progressivebydesign]

28. Can you all grasp how pathetic the Bush camp is right now???

How PATHETIC is it that people are actually considering payroll records from a rarely there, cannot-fly anymore, left the Guard to work on a political campaign, politician as something worthy??? I mean.. he's runing against an ACTUAL military HERO! And the GOP is creaming their pants over a freakin' payroll record. What is wrong with this picture???

Saw a "VETS FOR KERRY" bumpersticker the other day. It was great!

[classof56]

151. You nailed it--Pathetic Indeed!

Remember the Lincoln/Douglas debate when Douglas looked up at Lincoln and in reference to Abe's height, intoned, "How long, oh, Lord, how long?" And Lincoln responded: "The days of the wicked are short." Both these are Bible verses. Let us hope and pray the days of this wicked administration truly are short!

Lincoln--now there's a President we can take pride in, even if he was a Republican! (I know--different party then!)

Bush Must Go!!!

[Art_from_Ark]

198. The "party of Lincoln" never was

Lincoln was bumped off as soon as he got the job done, that is, defeating the South. The radical elements in the party then made sure that Lincoln's successor could not carry out the compassionate side of Reconstruction.

Any time a Republican president in the 19th century actually started showing compassion (Hayes, Garfield, Arthur), he was either dumped from the ticket next time around, or bumped off.

[RandomKoolzip]

199. Yeah. So pathetic, Bush's party-line defenders own all three branches

of government and the media.

As silly and as "pathetic" they might seem to those of us with brains, let us not forget that they're in power, that they won't let go of that power easily, and that about half of the American people (STILL (!) (!!!!!!!!!!)) thisnk that BushCo. is doing a fine job.

It really shouldn't be this way, but we got a tough road ahead of us. We can't count on the American press calling a spade a spade anymore.

[MallRat]

29. Hmm... Late Friday afternoon? Must not be good news for Bush.

Most. Predictable. Presidency. Ever.

-MR

[jayfish]

30. Hmmm... I Thought They Were Transfered To Microfiche...

and the microfiche was destroyed.

Jay

[stopbush]

31. Too bad the records list "Donald Rumsfeld, Sec. of Defense"

and the TANG base address is somewhere in Niger.

It's the details that screws ya up...

[hang a left]

48. Thats a good one!

:evilgrin:

[Beetwasher]

35. The Records SUPPORT THE AWOL ACCUSATIONS!!!

See this post of the image in GD and my response in post #25:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2051007&mesg_id=2051140&page=

The payroll records show he was missing for several months in '72 and didn't get paid and also for a couple of months in '73 when he didn't get paid. HE WAS AWOL!!!

[underpants]

36. That Sir is treasonous

and W should be punished accordingly

Sorry for posting the same thing twice.

[Beetwasher]

39. It Needs To Be Said, People Are Missing How Relevant These Are!

They support the claims of AWOL! If he did duty like he claimed, he would have been paid. He wasn't paid, he didn't serve.

[Joanne98]

46. Can you post them?

CNN says they don't support AWOL claims.

[Beetwasher]

47. See The Thread In GD

Unless I'm reading the docs wrong, he didn't get paid for 5 months in '72 and 2 months in '73. That would indeed support the AWOL claims. Maybe there's some other reason he didn't get paid, but if there is, he's not forthcoming about it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2051007&mesg_id=2051140&page=

[REVOLT823]

180. I'm agreeing with you

this shows he didn't get paid on those months mentioned, and this is thru the summer of 72. Why would he NOT get paid if he was indeed serving? I don't think the military could even consider that legally.

[Jack Rabbit]

190. They don't prove he showed for duty; he wasn't paid

Form the Los Angeles Times
Dated Friday July 23

Pentagon Releases Additional Bush Military Records
By Richard A. Serrano, Times Staff Writer

The Pentagon released newly discovered documents on Friday that administration officials said provided further evidence that the president fulfilled his duties as an officer in the Texas Air National Guard while on temporary assignment in Alabama 30 years ago.
The payroll records show that he wasn't paid for the five months in 1972 when he was assigned to an Alabama guard unit, indicating that he didn't show up for duty. But the same records show that he wasn't required to attend because he had already accumulated enough credits to meet his obligation for that year.
Questions about Bush's military service in Alabama had touched off allegations by Democrats and other critics that the young Bush had gone AWOL during this period. He had moved to Alabama to work on the Senate campaign of a friend of his father, then the chairman of the Republican National Committee.
It seemed unlikely that the payroll records would put to rest questions about Bush's National Guard experience.

Let's see . . . no fellow officer remembers meeting him . . . no record that he was paid for the period . . . the inference that he skipped out on his duty sounds like a pretty safe one.

[cal04]

37. anyone can get paid without actually going to work

Bush Guard records found
Leak shows Bush paid; no proof he was there...

[Beetwasher]

38. No, They Show HE WASN'T PAID!! He WAS AWOL!!!

His payroll records have gaps of several months in '72 and '73 for which he wasn't paid because he didn't show up...BUSH WAS AWOL!!! Shout if from the rooftops!!

[mom cat]

170. That's the way I read it too! I know that he is dumber than dirt, but

I can hardly believe that he is so dumb that he released PROOF THAT HE WAS AWOL! Perhaps he is so delusional that he thought he found proof that he did serve. This shows that his service was sporatic at best. Missing for over six months is AWOL, even in Texas or Alabama.

editted for spelling :dem:

[REVOLT823]

182. Missing for 6 months is not AWOL, its desertion.

You are considered a deserterafter 30 days of being AWOL.

[MrBenchley]

53. Hell, the chimp got millions for his "oil company" that found no oil

Getting paid isn't proof of anything....except that he found away to suck the public tit while he was trying to get that racist imbecile Blunt into Congress....

[Cocoa]

40. story found

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/politics/9228015.htm?ERIGHTS=6187570901282265928miami::[e-mail]&KRD_RM=9pprtqqxryysywrsttpypppppp|daily|Y&is_rd=Y

The Pentagon on Friday released payroll records from President Bush's 1972 service in the Alabama National Guard, saying its earlier contention the records were destroyed was an "inadvertent oversight."

The records cover July through September of 1972, when Bush was working as a campaign volunteer in Alabama. The future president had been transferred from the Texas Air National Guard to the Alabama unit so he could stay in Alabama.

The release came days before Democrats began their national convention in Boston to officially nominate Sen. John Kerry as their presidential candidate.

<snip>

In a letter to The Associated Press Friday, Pentagon freedom of information chief C.Y. Talbot said the records couldn't be found earlier because officials were using the wrong index number.

[MallRat]

43. This is nice: "The Associated Press was evaluating the documents."

I'm glad they're taking their time, instead of jumping to conclusions.

-MR

[w4rma]

202. I read it as the AP is trying to figure out how to spin so Bush isn't hurt

so badly.

If they report it without that spin, it could end this election right here, right now in favor of a landslide for Dems.

[MallRat]

41. I need a little background: what WERE the service requirements for *?

How many days a year, how many days a month, etc.?

I'm having a hard time with the big picture here.

[OK_DemX2]

67. Service requirements for ANG

Bush would have had to have 50 units of credit (12 weekends broken into 4 units per weekend with additional 2 credits for 2 weeks of active duty military service {summer camp}). This proves that he did not fulfill his commitment in the ANG. Also, the paperwork for his yearly report came from Texas ANG, not Alabama and Texas expressed they had no documentation from Alabama to base evaluation on, so no eval was given. If Bush had transferred to Alabama, those documents would have been readily available to Texas ANG when eval time came.

[Hoping4Change]

147. When the story broke on CNN tthe Pentagon correspondent

said he was AWOl but that the White House is claiming that dimwit got all his required time in a shorter period of time, that it was condensed. Do you know if that is allowed?

[mom cat]

174. I bet there are a lot of people serving now who would like their time

"condensed". What the hell does that mean? This spin is sickening!
:puke:

[Hoping4Change]

176. The wierd thing is that I can;'t find mention of these remarks that

CNN's Jamie McIntrye made when story was breaking though condensed is my word not his.

[OK_DemX2]

211. No, that is NOT allowed,

You can make up excused absences in drill but you can't say, OK, I signed up for 6 years, that is 45 days a year so I am going to serve 270 straight days and bam, I am going home, mission accomplished. The time has to be served, and typically, you are allowed only a few excused absences per year, and, unless extenuating circumstances, very, very few unexcused absences, which seem to be the type that our fearless "Weeder" was racking up. Also, when you sign up for the reserves or ANG, it is an eight year commitment, 6 active reserves and 2 inactive reserves, not only did he not go, he didn't even complete his commitment in either.

[mom cat]

172. Welcome to DU. Nice info. I look forward to hearing more from you.

:hi:

[jmowreader]

207. Is that for a non-flying unit or a flying unit?

Flying units go in more often than non-flying units because the equipment needs more maintenance, they train more so they don't get killed flying the equipment, there's more records to maintain...and because aviation units need to work more, they need more drills to "fulfill their commitment."

[OK_DemX2]

213. You're right, unfortunately I was in a non-flying unit

as was my dad. Did work at Carswell AFB in Fort Worth when I was on active duty and they had a reserve fighter wing stationed there, seems they have to drill 2 weekends a month and active duty 4 weeks (2 2 week periods) if I am not mistaken. Probably documentation on the web, just don't have time to look it up. Sorry for the mix-up. btw at the end of *'s service, his job was changed to a non-flying, administrative billet, which was almost unheard of, especially after he had voluntarilly had his flight status revoked, lot of money to spend and get basically nothing for it, even if it was F-102's.

[Alpharetta]

42. I want to see the flight surgeon's report regarding his drug test

He didn't skip the drug test did he? That would not make any sense at all, to go to Alabama and then not take the medical to keep on flying.

[Joanne98]

52. YEAH

That's how he got grounded. Him and his buddy James R Bath.

[aden_nak]

44. Why are payroll records the standard measurement for this?

Surely he has a military file or record, which would contain reviews by his superiors. And surely there is some record showing how many hours he logged in what aircraft? I have several family members in the military, and there seem to be records of every time they took a piss while they were on site. Is this the best they can find?

[politicat]

68. Right, but those would show things that * doesn't want you to see.

Like discipline records, promotion/evaulation records, behavior records, ...

things that would show him to be a spoiled rich kid who got the cushy assignment thanks to politically connected papa. Payroll records are neutral.

Pcat

[Fed Up]

45. the magic president. they were lost forever, but we found them. n/t

[UVAlaw]

51. Slooowwwww down little buckaroo

We already knew that Bush didn't show up for duty and was grounded during May-September '72. The only thing these records do is verify that he didn't show up. What actually needs to be determined is WHY he didn't show up and why he was grounded. These records don't provide that info. So actually there is nothing new here.

[Beetwasher]

54. No, We Don't Need To Know Why

Bush claims he fulfilled his duty and DID in fact show up. That's what he claims. The records show otherwise. We don't have to know the reason why. He's already caught in a lie. Even if he was grounded, he still had to show up for duty and he would get paid if he did. He didn't get paid, he didn't show up and now he's lying about it.

[MallRat]

56. What did Bush have to do to "fulfill his duty?"

How many days a year, a month, etc.?

-MR

[Beetwasher]

59. Not Exactly Sure, But He Sure As Hell

was not allowed to skip off for 5 months in '72. The fact is he claims he went to Alabama to work on a campaign and showed up for duty there. If he did, he STILL would have been paid, and the records show he wasn't, so he DIDN'T show up there either.

[Frodo]

75. Trying to find a link for that info.

I seem to remember that they had a quarterly obligation to a certain number of days. BUT that you could make up (or maybe carry forward) days from other quarters.

Does anyone have a better memory on the subject?

Your point "He Sure As Hellwas not allowed to skip off for 5 months in '72" is the crux of the matter. He may have been.

[Beetwasher]

130. Except His Story Is is that He WAS serving During That Time

and not just a few days. He certainly meant to IMPLY he served that whole time...Not that he skipped out and made the time up later and was allowed to do it...

Let him go ahead and try to make that argument and look foolish...That is, if anyone in the media actually has the guts to ask him about it...

[Frodo]

143. The question isn't REALLY his truthfullness...

There are plenty of issues of more weight where THAT point can be made.

It's the whole "AWOL" thing. He either did or did not fulfill his obligation under the rules. It really doesn't matter what WE think is "good enough" - there was a specific system to follow (which I still can't find). WE may agree that you should not be allowed out of Vietnam service for a dozen or two days a year reading manuals, but it isn't really relevant.

If the system allowed this sort of variable schedule then all that's left is whether the records have been forged or altered. This copy of a single sheet would be hard to prove or disprove (wouldn't it be interesting if it's printed in a font that didn't exist in the 70's???). Then he would have had to use his father's connections to get out of trouble.

HE doesn't have to make any argument at all. We're the ones accusing him of being AWOL. The rules on what he could and could not elect to do are the HEART of the issue.

[Beetwasher]

148. Yes, It Is His Truthfulness

As far as I'm concerned. AWOL too. It can be both. His credibility is an issue, period. This cuts right to the heart of it. You don't get to dictate what the question is. If you want to merely defend him against the AWOL charges, that's your perogative. I'll raise questions about his AWOL AND his lying about it too.

This is politics and I got no problem w/ us leveling the charges of AWOL if it looks like he was. He claims he served during the period he was absent. He didn't. He lied and we can claim AWOL until he proves otherwise or at least makes a legitimate case. He hasn't. You can get mired in the minutiae of the details of how he may or may not of been technically AWOL. I could care less. If it sticks and it gets in people's heads that he was AWOL, whether or not it's technically true, that's fine w/ me.

[Frodo]

152. Not what I meant. We don't make any headway on

calling in to question whether he truthfully recalled exactly which days he was in and out thirty years ago.

The "minutia" as you call it is EXACTLY where the devil hides in these things. If the "technical" rules say "x number of days over y months" and he did then "AWOL" makes us look foolish. You can shout "he wasn't there at ALL in July!" but if the rules say he didn't HAVE to be there in July you aren't saying anything.

We need to find the rules and compare them to this record. It's really that simple.

If they match then we question his veracity on some OTHER issue - pick one of many. Then we question his patriotism in avoiding a war he blames Kerry for leaving.

The point is, you can't claim "AWOL!" AND define for yourself what "AWOL" IS.

[Beetwasher]

154. That Would Merely Be A Bonus

As far as I'm concerned. There was obviously something fishy going on, and it could only look bad for Bush the more it gets looked into.

I can shout AWOL all I want, I could care less if I look "foolish" to some; I'm not the Dem party, just some schmuck on DU :shrug: I'm not saying I think Kerry should get out there and start shouting AWOL. I would like to see some more measured rhetoric regarding this coming from Dem officials, but I think it certainly warrants questions.

This is all about credibility. Credibility is THEIR big issue. He said he served and certainly implied he did it during the months he was absent, if he wants to backpeddle and change his story, that's fine w/ me.

I'd love to see the regs. But I wouldn't even know where to begin to look for regs from '72.

[BeatleBoot]

178. It proves two things

1) Bush is a sissy.

2) Bush is a coward.

[TankLV]

196. Do you know of ANYONE from that era who could get the breaks he did?

I as sure hell don't. And you won't find anyone either.

We're talking Vietnam here.

Everyone and anyone who could tried to avoid going to become cannon fodder. Everyone.

The National Guard wasn't what it is now - it was THE last alternative to AVOID GOING TO NAM.

Do you know ANYONE else who requested and got approval for CAMPAIGINING FOR SOME IDIOT POLITICIAN instead of going to NAM?

There IS no one.

Do you know ANYONE else who could do ANY of the sommersaults as you describe and the repukes try to spin INSTEAD OF GOING TO NAM?

THERE IS NO ONE who has gotten so lucky.

If ANY of these opitions to service were available, don't you think there would have been TENS OF THOUSANDS of boys who would have LOVED to have that option?!?!?!?!?!

This stinks to high heaven and this scum is guilty of DESERTION.

He should pay the MAXIMUM penalty for his desertion!

[Frodo]

204. Don't be silly.

There were FAR easier ways to avoid 'Nam and lots of people took more unusualy routes to avoid the war (I would image that one or two people hopped in a car and went to Canada for an extended vacation.

There's no need to blow it out of proportion. I'm sure he didn't want to go, but the rules as they seem to have been described fit his behavior. Heck, you just had to go to graduate school in some cases. You didn't have to join a military unit. He would not only have had to pull strings to get IN, but there would have to be some strings involved with keeping his unit out of the war as well. Several ANG units fought over there.

Please describe "desertion"? Do you agree that if the ANG rules say (I'm making it up) "you must be here for ten days per quarter and can make up missed days up to two quarters later" that you could go five or six months without showing up at all and not be deserting?

"Avoidance" is fine - ton's of politicians now serving have been painted with that brush, but I have yet to see someone show a military definition of "AWOL" or "Desertion" that applies to the situation. I was in the military and would have been "AWOL" if I missed an 11pm rack check... but that's active duty.

[TankLV]

205. Sorry, not true. It is VERY SERIOUS, not at all "silly" - except to you.

The draft lottery specifically excluded ANY exemptions for ANY schooling deferments. I know. I lost mine. Everyone did, except apparently not bunkerboy.

Why do you constantly defend this piece of crap?

What I said is are FACTS. I noticed that you have not disprooved a single one.

Show me proof that ONE OTHER PERSON could do as he did. Just one.

I mentioned working on some puke campaign and then just doing other things, not "going to Canada". You are talking apples and oranges.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

98. Don't forget that FratBoy refused to take a flight physical in 1972....

...and was suspended from flying.

[OK_DemX2]

69. 12 weekends and 2 week active duty summercamp

[Frodo]

78. Air National Guard during Vietnam was not today's Reserves

You can't stay qualified on aircraft by putting in two days a month.

The obligation was different that just two weeks and the occasional weekend.

My vague recollection is ten days a quarter with the ability to make up days a quarter or two ahead or behind.

He may or may NOT have met that according to these records.

[OK_DemX2]

84. Even by Bush's own admission

There were no aircraft in Alabama he was qualified on, so he was reading safety manuals in the safety officers office. You are correct in that you cannot maintain flight status at 2 days a month, but you also need to have a flight physical, which Bush did not have, and his final billet (which he was discharged under) was a more standard job that did not require flight status. (My dad was Reserves after he got back from Active Duty in Phillipines, got the info from him)

[Frodo]

116. Yeah, but even if you are no longer in flight status...

you don't step down to "weekends" status.

His requirements for duty would not have changed.

[OK_DemX2]

119. Requirements would change will a billet change

Was moved into another field during/immediately after (not sure) the Alabama situation. Again, splitting hairs, was active military and ANG myself, he didn't show up, should have been labeled AWOL/Deserter and shipped to Vietnam on the first bus. Daddy stepped in a saved his ass (again) but I don't think his Daddy's buddies are going to be able to save his ass this time.

[Hoping4Change]

149. Hi OK_DemX2

Welcome to DU. Glad you're here.:hi:

[OK_DemX2]

214. Thanx,

glad to be here, am being held prisoner here in Texas and Oklahoma by the RW fanatics that bear blood relation to me. Am trying to educate, and all is not lost, grandparents are Dem to the core, but my wife's family and rest of my family are dyed in the wool Repubs and sometimes it gives me apoplectic fits.

[UVAlaw]

57. Not sure about that

My understanding was that he did fulfill his duty. He only had to serve a certain number of days. You'll notice that the last couple of months he was almost always at work. This was so that he could get the necessary number of points to fulfill his commitment. I think the question is why he was grounded and whether he was actually on duty the days he was paid.

[Beetwasher]

60. Nope, That's NOT What He Claims

Those are additional good questions but not relevant because Bush claims he DID SHOW UP FOR DUTY DURING THAT PERIOD IN Alabama. That's Bush's own story. The records show otherwise.

[DrWeird]

61. Look. It's painfully clear.

He joined the TANG because he's a damn coward and wanted to dodge Vietnam. He took off from the TANG because he figured his daddy's connections could get him off the hook.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

107. Here's something else to think about....

In 1972, FratBoy refused to take a flight physical which corresponds with another story about our favorite "flyboy", and I really mean "flyboy".

That story goes roughly like this...

****FratBoy gets pulled over by a Texas trooper who happens to notice that Mr. Light-bulb left his coke out on the carseat beside him.

****Poppy then calls his favorite local judge to work a deal...community service in exchange for expunging FratBoy's record when the hours were completed.

****There used to be at least one copy of a photo on the Net that showed FratBoy working at a community service facility in Houston. I personally saw the photo but unfortunately I stupidly failed to save it.

So, my theory is that FratBoy did his community service during the time that he was supposed to be fulfilling his National Guard contract. Can't be in two places at once.

[UVAlaw]

63. Calpundit National Guard Summary

Here is a link to a good summary of the National Guard controversy.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2004_02/003303.php


"In May 1972 he moved to Alabama to work on a senatorial campaign. For the next six months he did not show up at any drills at all and missed his annual physical. Even by the loose standards of the 70s-era Guard, this was pretty unusual."

[Beetwasher]

65. That's There Take, But Not What Bush Says

Bush claims he showed up for duty in Alabama...

[Frodo]

83. Do you have a link?

We need a quote of exactly what he claimed.

Is there or is there not wiggle room?

[liveoaktx]

97. The infamous Meet The Press Interview

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4179618/
Russert: The Boston Globe and the Associated Press have gone through some of the records and said there’s no evidence that you reported to duty in Alabama during the summer and fall of 1972.

President Bush: Yeah, they’re — they're just wrong. There may be no evidence, but I did report; otherwise, I wouldn't have been honorably discharged. In other words, you don't just say "I did something" without there being verification. Military doesn't work that way. I got an honorable discharge, and I did show up in Alabama.

Russert: You did — were allowed to leave eight months before your term expired. Was there a reason?

President Bush: Right. Well, I was going to Harvard Business School and worked it out with the military.

Russert: When allegations were made about John McCain or Wesley Clark on their military records, they opened up their entire files. Would you agree to do that?

President Bush: Yeah. Listen, these files — I mean, people have been looking for these files for a long period of time, trust me, and starting in the 1994 campaign for governor. And I can assure you in the year 2000 people were looking for those files as well. Probably you were. And — absolutely. I mean, I —

Russert: But you would allow pay stubs, tax records, anything to show that you were serving during that period?

President Bush: Yeah. If we still have them, but I — you know, the records are kept in Colorado, as I understand, and they scoured the records.

And I'm just telling you, I did my duty, and it's politics, you know, to kind of ascribe all kinds of motives to me. But I have been through it before. I'm used to it. What I don't like is when people say serving in the Guard is — is — may not be a true service.

[Frodo]

120. That's not going to help

That's not contradicted by these records

"did report" & "summer and fall" leaves too much wiggle room. These show he "reported" for six days during the "sumer and fall" period.

[Beetwasher]

128. Good, Let Him Argue That Fine Point

I'll take that "wiggle" room...He was AWOL for almost 6 months and can't account for his absence and at the very least TRIES to make it seem like he DID serve for those 6 months, and these records make a good case for the charge of AWOL, one Bush can't defend without looking like a quibbling fool...

[bagnana]

165. He claimed he showed upon in the Summer & fall.

He didn't. He lied.

[papau]

62. Well said - but will the media say the obvious about 7 months of no pay?

I doubt it.

[Joanne98]

70. That's right

If these records prove he didn't show up he's a LIAR again. We know what he was doing. He was partying with James R Bath and getting that 15 yr old girl pregnant. The one he had Bath take to get an abortion. That was in 72'. One year before abortions were even legal. If we can prove he was AWOL, we can clear the way for the OTHER stuff. There's also his drug test he refused to take and the persistant rumor that he did "community service" for someone in Houston. It all comes together.

[TahitiNut]

71. Six months - matches the (alleged) six months of community service

... for a drug conviction. Removed from flight duty due to conviction (or plea bargain) for cocaine possession. (Partying with James R. Bath.)

[David Zephyr]

81. Excellent Observation, TN!

Yes, the six months that GW was back in Houston.

[TahitiNut]

121. The address for his check was "2910 Westheimer, Houston, TX 77006"

Interesting. That also matches the (alleged) community service in Houston.

April 17, 1972 through October 27, 1972 is 193 days. That also matches the (court-imposed?) community service.



The fucker was absolutely busted for cocaine possession. It couldn't have been the first time, either. I'm willing to bet James R. Bath was busted, too.

[Joanne98]

133. It might have been pot

The 70's was kinda early for cocaine. But there was LSD, pills, heroin, pot etc.

[Pastiche423]

141. Don't know where you were in the 70's

but it wasn't kinda early for coke where I lived.

O8)

[TexasBushwhacker]

191. I agree - HS Class of '75

So in '72 I was a freshman. I clearly remember being with a friend who was trying to get some pot. Our friend's boyfriend said he didn't know of anyone that had any pot, but he knew someone who had cocaine, "but that's some heavy stuff". We weren't yet to the nose candy era of the late 70's, but it was definitely around.

I was from a white, middle class neighborhood on the Southwest side of town. 2910 Westheimer is between Kirby Dr. and Buffalo Speedway and is right in the middle of River Oaks (aka old rich central). Cocaine was not something that was readily available to middle class kids in the early 70's, but rich kids? You betcha!

[Shakespeare]

155. Um, coke's been around & readily availalbe for over 100 years.

It was deemed illegal in the big prohibition sweep about 80 years ago.

[stevedeshazer]

136. Wow

[David Zephyr]

138. This is Hot! And The Address in Ground Zero in Gay Montrose of Houston

It does match.

This is what poor Jim Hatfield was trying to get at, but had the entire BFEE working against him.

The match of the dates should have us all working on this now.

We have a tight timeframe.

And how about that address, huh?

For anyone who knows Houston, this is smack dab right in the heart of the gay ghetto of Montrose.

Back then, believe me on this, saying you lived in Montrose was saying you were gay (only they said "queer" back then).

[Joanne98]

157. Are you saying Bush is gay?

That's another rumor. That Sholick guy always writes about. Bush's male sex mate that he hooked up with at Yale what's his name? But this was before he went to Yale. Maybe Bath is gay?

[David Zephyr]

161. No, But Having Grown Up In Houston & Lived There At That Time:

If you had that address, you were marked "queer".

[Joanne98]

162. Oh that's interesting

:)

[Junkdrawer]

164. Google Montrose and Houston and this comes up,,,

http://www.bodypositivehouston.org/

[Joanne98]

167. Bwhahahahahahahahahaha

Originally established to treat sexually transmitted diseases (STDs), Montrose Clinic has greatly expanded its programs over the last twenty-plus years to meet the needs of underserved people throughout the greater Houston area. A United Way agency, the Clinic has been at the forefront of responding to the HIV epidemic since 1985, when the Clinic became the citys first, and the nations second, alternative HIV antibody testing site. The Clinic now serves more than 15,000 men, women and teens annually, with over 30,000 patient/client visits for a full spectrum of care.

Our key focus is to ensure that the indigent, the uninsured, and the gay/lesbian/bisexual/transgender (GLBT) community receive high-quality health care, eye care, prevention education, social services, and clinical research services in a culturally sensitive, judgment-free, and confidential environment.


The Bush service record is getting really interesting.

[Junkdrawer]

183. Googled this one up...

Young Man Without a Game Plan

Back in Houston, Mr. Bush went to live in a four-unit apartment building at 2910 Westheimer, a busy east-west artery. His downstairs neighbor, a florist, had a dog and refused to let the landlord spray pesticides, Ms. Munson recalled, and "the roaches were just terrible."

Ms. Bear agreed: "It was little and dumpy, and there were a lot of bugs. It wasn't a nice place. He drove a white Cutlass, dirty laundry, tennis shoes, and everything else in the back of his car -- just like a guy. No Gucci loafers or things like that."

Asked about other women in Mr. Bush's life at the time, Ms. Bear said: "Not that summer. Well, I don't know. I spent a good deal of time with him. Mr. Lothario I never got the idea that he was. Do you get the impression he's a big romantic? I don't. He never was wolfish. He was a decent guy. He would never be a kiss-and-tell guy. Never."

www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1070518/posts

[TexasBushwhacker]

195. Sorry Dave, but I can't agree

2910 Westheimer is between Kirby and Buffalo Speedway. The intersection with Montrose (called "Lower Westheimer" because the addresses are less than 1000) that was and still is the center of Houston's gay community is 2 miles away. 2910 Westheimer is in River Oaks, not gay "Montrose".

BTW, someone who definitely WAS a resident of Montrose back in the day, and who was definitely gay, was Herff Applewhite, the deceased leader of the Heaven's Gate cult that all commited suicide in 1997 (in California).

[Joanne98]

158. Here's a map

http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?country=US&countryid=US&addtohistory=&searchtype=address&cat=&address=2910%20Westheimer%20Rd&city=Houston&state=TX&zipcode=77098%2d1112

[Junkdrawer]

163. Funny. Alabama St. is one block away from Westheimer Rd...

that may be as close as Dubya got to Alabama in 1973...

[Joanne98]

168. Bingo

That's the problem. He thought he was Alabama but it was really Alabama st. Too much partying can do that. lol

[David Zephyr]

169. The Plantation Gay Bar & Club

was on Alabama there in Montrose I believe and right there 1 block north of Westheimer, too.

[TahitiNut]

187. Well, that's the north end of Houston's Third Ward. (Check!)

Book: Bush was arrested for cocaine in 1972
Texas author J.H. Hatfield claims the Republican front-runner did community service at a Houston center.
By Salon Staff

Oct. 18, 1999 | A new book by Texas author J.H. Hatfield claims that George W. Bush was arrested for cocaine possession in 1972, but had his record expunged with help from his family's political connections. In an afterword to his book "Fortunate Son: George W. Bush and the Making of an American President" (St. Martin's), Hatfield says he took a second look at the Bush cocaine allegations after a story in Salon reporting allegations that Bush did community service for the crime at the Martin Luther King Jr. Community Center in Houston's Third Ward.

The center's executive director, Madgelean Bush (no relation to George W. Bush), had told Salon News and others that Bush did not do community service there, and the Bush campaign likewise denied the allegation. But the Texas governor had admitted to working at Houston's Project P.U.L.L. in 1972, and Hatfield says he began to wonder if that was actually the community service sentence. Hatfield says he confirmed those suspicions with three sources close to the Bush family he had cultivated while writing his biography, which publishes Wednesday.

(more)

---

Big surprise. :eyes: The coke-head, pathological fratboy LIED (again).

[David Zephyr]

189. Didn't L. Flint Determine That Hatfield Had The Wrong Name for the Center?

In any event, the timeframe is now pretty obvious as you have pointed out TahitiNut.

[TahitiNut]

193. The confusion over the Center ...

... was whether he worked for the Center or not. The director of the Center, with a display of hyper-caution, carefully said he didn't work for the Center. But Project P.U.L.L. apparently used the Center and El Smirko was assigned to the Project, not the Center.

Some people are extraordinarily careful about parsing answers when they're not just outright lying - when they think about Carnahan, Wellstone, and envelopes of anthrax, I guess. (It's not about the meaning of "is" either.)

[Joanne98]

82. The woman who ran that center is still alive.

But she won't talk. That's what's being said anyway. I can't remember who wrote that story. Damn. I'll try and find it.

[Carni]

99. Try Online Journal

I think they wrote the story on this--(not sure)

[Joanne98]

108. Here it is Salon.com article

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/1999/10/18/cocaine/

[liveoaktx]

192. And here's something that references * at Project PULL in Houston

Looks to be some kind of ad made for the Republican Convention.

http://www.gwu.edu/~action/repconv/bushvideo.html

GWB: Well, a wonderful man named John White asked me to come and work with him in a project in the 3rd Ward of Houston called Project P.U.L.L.; it was a mentoring program.

Ernie Ladd, Co-founder P.U.L.L.: The meaning of P.U.L.L. was Professionals United Leadership League. We had professional people who were school teachers, football players, basketball players, lawyers and doctors involved in helping go into the community and help minority kids.

GWB: I realized then that a society can change and must change one person at a time and, but it was a place that was full of activity and energy and kids were, you know kids were coming from tough circumstances. I saw that first hand one night when I took a little boy who I took a shining to, named Jimmy Dean, I took him home and situation I had never seen before. It was a living room with his mom, looked like she was on drugs and there was a bunch of hanger on-ers and smoke-filled and this was this boys home, and it was tragic and sad that he was growing up in such a tough environment, an environment that where the love that I had known as a child--it seemed like the drugs and alcohol abuse had replaced that love. And unfortunately the story ends on a sad note. My little friend was shot when he became a teenager and died.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

110. Bingo!! I just read your earlier post after I posted my #98...sorry!

[Joanne98]

115. Here's the abortion

http://www.tylwythteg.com/enemies/bush1.html#abortion

Or some of it. Larry Flynt is the one who is saying this happened. He says he has it nailed down.

[bagnana]

90. that is not true.

Bush claims he showed up between May and September 72. Just couldn't say when/where.

[cal04]

64. Bush Guard records found: was absent without pay

***EXCLUSIVE – FIRST TO THE WEB BEFORE DRUDGE OR ASSOCIATED PRESS***

President Bush’s National Guard Records for the period July through September of 1972, when Bush was working as a campaign volunteer in Alabama, which previously had been reported ‘accidentally’ destroyed, have turned up at the Pentagon.

The records appear to show gaps in the President’s payroll record during the period he claimed to have been in attendance by the Guard.

The records show that he was in attendance for only three days in February 1972, and was absent during May, June, July, August, September and all but two days of October of that same year.

He was also absent all of February and March of 1973.

They do not, however, lay to rest claims, first put forth by controversial documentarian Michael Moore, that the President was absent without leave (or AWOL) during that period. In fact, they seem to invite more questions as to why they had been reported “accidentally destroyed” earlier this month…

The Associated Press had asked a federal judge July 16 to order the Pentagon to quickly turn over a copy of the pay records. The AP had sued under the Freedom of Information Act to obtain the records from a state library records center in Texas, after Bush refused.

“The Pentagon had said that the payroll records for that time period had been inadvertently destroyed,” the AP said. “In a letter to The Associated Press Friday, Pentagon freedom of information chief C.Y. Talbot said the records couldn’t be found earlier because officials were using the wrong index number.

“The Associated Press was evaluating the documents.”


www.rawstory.com

[mzmolly]

73. Crossing fingers, if true ... He's a gonner!

:bounce:

[FreakinDJ]

89. This better be on the front page of every paper in America

let the Freepers savor the flavor of the BIG OL' SHIT BURGER they are about to eat

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA

[OK_DemX2]

91. The Repugs will bury it and tell the sheeple its a bunch of liberal media

lies and propoganda, and most of them will believe the lying SOB. It's like the Eddie Murphy skit, who you gonna believe? me or your lying eyes??

[timdoodle]

74. Does this mean Kerry needs to give up his medical records

You know that's what the assholes will want out of this.

[OK_DemX2]

76. After the Cahill letter...

I don't think they are going to be shouting about releasing records when they know they can't reciprocate and someone will call them on it. Little embarrassing last time.

[spotbird]

94. Do you think for a fraction of a second that Bush would actually

give up all of his medical records from that time? We do know he has bad teeth, but just what medicine does he take daily?

Give it up, you're transparent.

[OK_DemX2]

100. transparent???

Even the RW gives up tricks that don't work....don't quite follow your post. Merely stating that dog won't hunt, Rove knows this, and won't make a flap about something that would torpedo their own argument. No one is going to release medical records, according to the 2000 election, that was all youthful misadventure anyway.

[spotbird]

92. It will snow in hell before chimp gives up all his medical records.

But if he does, and they are complete (a truly laughable thought) then Kerry should act in kind.

These are payroll records which presumably aren't as personal in nature as medical records. I'm sure if he hasn't already, Kerry will gladly provide his payroll records, he has nothing to hide.

[David Zephyr]

77. Pentagon "Finds" GW's "Records" On Eve of Nam Vet, Kerry's Nomination!

What a crock of shit this is.

The Pentagon is now a part of the Re-Elect Bush Campaign?

What timing!

What a "coincidence"!

What bullshit!

[OK_DemX2]

79. Would this constitute flip-flopping??

We have them, you have all of them, we are going to release all of them at a later date, you have all of them, some of them were destroyed, we found them, you have all of them, well, maybe we need to release some more later.......

[struggle4progress]

86. Attempt to cut off the Texas suit?

Posted on Tue, Jun. 22, 2004
AP Sues for Access to Bush Guard Records
PETE YOST
Associated Press
WASHINGTON - The Associated Press sued the Pentagon and the Air Force on Tuesday, seeking access to all records of George W. Bush's military service during the Vietnam War. <snip>
http://www.sunherald.com/mld/sunherald/news/breaking_news/8985661.htm

[liveoaktx]

93. Perhaps so, because this record only corroborates this old CBSNEWS article

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/03/politics/main615317.shtml

As for the highest profile issue, the available files do not clear up the "missing" section of the president's National Guard service. From May 1972 through May 1973 there are highly irregular records for his attendance at required drills, reports Walter Robinson in the Boston Globe. During that time, Mr. Bush had been given permission to move from his home base in Houston to Montgomery, Ala., to work on a Congressional campaign.

Until February of this year, no documents existed to suggest that Mr. Bush performed any duty in either Texas or Alabama during those months. Pay stubs released in February show that he was paid for enough days in Alabama to be judged "satisfactory," but that he did not do any duty between April 16 and October 28, 1972, and that he failed to show up for training in December 1972, February 1973 and March 1973.

There is nothing in the records from that key period beyond those pay stubs – no evaluations from either Mr. Bush's Alabama supervisors or his Texas ones. In fact, Mr. Bush's Texas evaluators wrote on May 2, 1973 that, "Lt. Bush has not been observed at this unit during the period of report. A civilian occupation made it necessary for him to move to Montgomery, Alabama. He cleared this base on 15 May 1972 and has been performing equivalent training in a non-flying status with the 187th Tac Recon Gp, Dannelly ANG Base, Alabama." But no Alabama records exist. And Mr. Bush's official discharge papers include no evidence of any duty between May 1972 and October 1973, when he left the Guard.

[struggle4progress]

106. Also, while the Texas suit asks for ALL records ...

... the more detailed reports currently seem to indicate only payroll records were released today, although much of the press coverage (including the wingnut sites) is hyping "Pentagon Releases Bush's Guard Records."

[OK_DemX2]

112. They release portions and claim to release the records...

been using this trick for 3.5 years now. Will keep using it because NO ONE CALLS THEM ON IT. Press needs to hammer these guys about all the ommissions.

[liveoaktx]

118. Same sources also didn't differentiate between the CO and TX records

It was clear all along that the AP was suing for the records that are kept in Texas, but the media was barking up the Colorado tree.

[OK_DemX2]

123. Actually, Texas will no longer have the records, they will

be in the Archive, and the Archive is now in St Louis, MO. I just requested my DD-214 to apply for a VA loan and had to send the request there as that is where the archives are now stored. Was told there were no records in CO, just what I was told over the phone.

[Rose Siding]

87. link- Why do filing systems hate America?

"Previous attempts to locate the missing records at the Federal Records Center had been unsuccessful due to the incorrect records accession numbers provided," the Pentagon's Office of Freedom of Information chief C.Y. Talbot said in a letter Friday to The Associated Press.

"The correct numbers were obtained ... and the records were found."

Talbot wrote that the Defense Department "regrets this inadvertent oversight during he initial search and the delay it caused in your receipt of these materials."

http://www.newsday.com/news/politics/wire/sns-ap-bush-military-records,0,4398343.story?coll=sns-ap-politics-headlines

[Media_Lies_Daily]

88. Maybe that's what Sandy Berger smuggled out in his underwear....

...BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

[Mr.Green93]

95. This proves nothing

[UVAlaw]

102. I agree

There is nothing here we didn't already know. The thing that MIGHT be interesting is to find out why he was grounded.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

117. He refused to take a flight physical, for starters...why did he do that?

[bagnana]

103. Bush lied. He never showed up in Alabama

THIS IS FROM HIS INTERVIEW W/RUSSERT:

President Bush: Political season is here. I was I served in the National Guard. I flew F 102 aircraft. I got an honorable discharge. I've heard this I've heard this ever since I started running for office. I - I put in my time, proudly so.

I would be careful to not denigrate the Guard. It's fine to go after me, which I expect the other side will do. I wouldn't denigrate service to the Guard, though, and the reason I wouldn't, is because there are a lot of really fine people who served in the National Guard and who are serving in the National Guard today in Iraq.

Russert: The Boston Globe and the Associated Press have gone through some of their records and said there’s no evidence that you reported to duty in Alabama during the summer and fall of 1972.

President Bush: Yeah, they're - they're just wrong. There may be no evidence, but I did report; otherwise, I wouldn't have been honorably discharged. In other words, you don't just say "I did something" without there being verification. Military doesn't work that way. I got an honorable discharge, and I did show up in Alabama.

HIS PAYROLL RECORDS REFLECT NO PAY FOR THE TIME HE WAS IN ALABAMA. YOU GET PAID FOR THE TIME YOU SHOW UP. HE DIDN'T SHOW UP. HE WASN'T PAID. HE SAID HE SHOWED UP. HE SAID IT ON NATIONAL TV. HE IS A LIAR!!!!!!!!!

[Bluebear]

104. It proves you can't believe a thing from this administration

Oops, inadvertant oversight my ass.

[OK_DemX2]

105. Except it follows the pattern of releasing the

same information to continue to muddy the water and keep the focus from the issue itself. On a side note, how can honest Vietnam draftee's keep throwing in with this puke?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

113. If you believe that, you're not paying attention.

[Lori Price CLG]

101. It must be 5PM on a Friday. Oh. Yup, it's 5PM on a Friday.

Actual news on the Bush dictatorship is only disseminated during slow news cycles.

Lori Price
http://www.legitgov.org/

[a_random_joel]

109. Not only that - Friday before the DNC which will dominate next week's news

Also NFL training camp starts next week.

These bastards are smart; you gotta give them that. :mad:

[starroute]

114. Bush timeline, 1972-73

through April 1972 - Bush in Houston - files complete and reports highly positive
- pay records show last day of attendance as April 16
- possible incident leading to community service (drug arrest?)

May-Dec 1972 - Bush in Alabama working on Blount campaign
- claims to have put in time with National Guard there but not assigned to any unit
- pay records now show was completely absent for over 6 months
- fails to take physical

- two days of attendance at the end of October (just before the election)
- four more in the second week of November (just after the election)
(I beleve it was stated last winter that all these days were back in Houston)

January 1973 - six days attended in early January
- then working with PULL in Houston (possible community service)

April-July 1973 - Bush attends two days in early April
- then attends frequently from May through July (making up lost time)

Fall 1973 - Bush goes off to Harvard


So the one new piece of information in these records is that Bush does not appear to have put in a single day in Alabama. (Even though he was telling people in the Blount campaign there that he was taking off certain days to fulfill his service.)

I'm going to see if I can check on those days in October, November, and January -- also on the date of that dental exam he supposedly had in Alabama.

[starroute]

124. The dates from October on are ARF service

See http://www.calpundit.com/archives/003220.html

According to Calpundit:

"ARF is the reserves, and among other things it's where members of the guard are sent for disciplinary reasons. As we all know, Bush failed to show up for his annual physical in July 1972, he was suspended in August, and the suspension was recorded on September 29. He was apparently transferred to ARF at that time and began accumulating ARF points in October.

"ARF is a 'paper unit' based in Denver that requires no drills and no attendance. For active guard members it is disciplinary because ARF members can theoretically be called up for active duty in the regular military, although this obviously never happened to George Bush.

"To make a long story short, Bush apparently blew off drills beginning in May 1972, failed to show up for his physical, and was then grounded and transferred to ARF as a disciplinary measure. He didn't return to his original Texas Guard unit and cram in 36 days of active duty in 1973 — as Time magazine and others continue to assert based on a mistaken interpretation of Bush's 1973-74 ARF record — but rather accumulated only ARF points during that period. In fact, it's unclear even what the points on the ARF record are for, but what is clear is that Bush's official records from Texas show no actual duty after May 1972."

[starroute]

126. The dental exam was in Alabama on January 6, 1973

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/02/12/elec04.prez.bush.military/

"Bush's dental record -- released Wednesday night -- says Bush received an exam at the Dannelly Air National Guard Base in Alabama on January 6, 1973.

" 'As has previously been documented and reported, the president was performing equivalent duty with the 187th Tactical Recon Group in a non-flying status,' the White House said in a statement."

[starroute]

131. The records shoot down Bush claims to have served in Alabama in 1972

That could be the most significant aspect to this new release. Back last winter, the Bush people were trying very hard to come up with testimony of Bush having served in Alabama during the summer of 1972. But it now appears it was all fake.

The new pay records show only a handful of dates credited to Bush during his Alabama period. There are those half-dozen days in late October-early November, which Calpundit suggests were merely on paper. And there are another half dozen days in early January, on at least one of which Bush apparently really did show up to have his teeth examined.


http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2004-02-13-bush-alabama_x.htm

"As the first member of President Bush's Air National Guard unit came forward to say he recalled the Bush at an Alabama base, a Selma Republican leader who campaigned with Bush says she saw him in uniform on his way to drills in 1972.

<snip>

"' Some people were saying that he never showed up there, but I know he did because I would see him with his (military uniform) on,' Sullivan said.

<snip>

"A retired Alabama Air National Guard officer said Friday that he remembers George Bush showing up for duty in Alabama in 1972, reading safety magazines and flight manuals in an office as he performed his weekend obligations.

" 'I saw him each drill period,' retired Lt. Col. John 'Bill' Calhoun said in a telephone interview with The Associated Press from Daytona Beach, Fla."

[TahitiNut]

127. He wasn't in Alabama. Look at the address on the records.

The checks were sent to a Houston address.

[Joanne98]

125. More on PULL in Houston

http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/3671

Did you know it was a FARMER who used the FOIA to get Bush's records?
Who'd have thunk?

[starroute]

134. Some interesting assertions in that Tom Paine piece

"In his annual evaluation report, Bush's two supervising officers, Lieutenant Colonel William D. Harris Jr. and Lieutenant Colonel Jerry B. Killian, made it clear that Bush had 'not been observed at his Texas unit 'during the period of report' -- the twelve month period from May 1972 through the end of April 1973.

"In the comments section of this evaluation report Lieutenant Colonel Harris notes that Bush had 'cleared this base on 15 May 1972, and has been performing equivalent training in a non flying role with the 187th Tac Recon Gp at Dannelly ANG Base, Alabama' (the Air National Guard Tactical Reconnaissance Group at Dannelly Air Force Base near Montgomery, Alabama).

"This was incorrect. Bush didn't apply for duty at Dannelly Air Force Base until September 1972. From May until September he was in limbo, his temporary orders having been rejected. And when his orders to appear at Dannelly came through he still didn't appear. Although his instructions clearly directed Bush to report to Lieutenant Colonel William Turnipseed on the dates of '7-8 October 0730-1600, and 4-5 November 0730-1600,' he never did. In interviews conducted with the Boston Globe earlier this year, both General Turnipseed and his former administration officer, Lieutenant Colonel Kenneth Lott, said that Bush never put in an appearance."


The pay records show Bush being credited for October 28-29 and November 11-14. These dates do not match the dates on which he was directed to report to General Turnipseed. So what exactly was going on? Combining this with Calpundit's remarks (which I cited above), it looks possible that:

1) Bush is separated from his Houston unit as of September 29, 1972 and ordered to report in Alabama beginning on October 7.

2) Bush fails to report and is thereupon transferred to an on-paper disciplinary unit, as per Calpundit.


It's starting to look as though Bush disobeyed military orders on multiple occasions -- when he left for Alabama without permission in May, when he failed to take his flight physical over the summer, and then when he finally received an Alabama assignment and failed to even show up for that in October. Not good.

[maryallen]

197. The farmer is a regular poster on ...

Salon's TableTalk.

[Joanne98]

129. Breaking CNN news

Tom Ridge is on TV saying Al Quaida is going to attack us for sure. Do you believe this crap. The Hubris is stunning.

[a_random_joel]

132. "Bush's military records seem to show up as randomly as he did for duty."

So sayeth Terry McAuliffe.

Preach it, Brother!

[Mike Niendorff]

135. AP story now up on Yahoo :

Pentagon Finds Bush's Guard Records
Matt Kelley, AP, 7/23/04 -- 14 minutes ago
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&e=4&u=/ap/20040723/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_military_records

WASHINGTON - The Pentagon on Friday released newly discovered payroll records from President Bush's 1972 service in the Alabama National Guard, though the records shed no new light on the future president's activities during that summer.

A Pentagon official said the earlier contention that the records were destroyed was an "inadvertent oversight."

Like records released earlier by the White House, these computerized payroll records show no indication Bush drilled with the Alabama unit during July, August and September of 1972. Pay records covering all of 1972, released previously, also indicated no guard service for Bush during those three months.

The records do not give any new information about Bush's National Guard training during 1972, when he transferred to the Alabama National Guard unit so he could work on the U.S. Senate campaign of a family friend. The payroll records do not say definitively whether Bush attended training that summer because they are maintained separately from attendance records.

(more)

-----


MDN

[maddezmom]

137. thanks...sorry had to leave the puter and never added one

:)

[drscm]

140. Yup! I always knew *Bush was altruistic.

"The payroll records do not say definitively whether Bush attended training that summer because they are maintained separately from attendance records."

It's obvious that he worked for free!!! Such compassion and magnificence - serving our country out of the goodness of his bountiful heart.

[Zorra]

144. Welp....that's it. Hey George -

SEE YA!!!!
:hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi:
Let the door hit ya on the way out!
:)

[doglover]

139. I'm worried about this..

Buschco will use this release to demand the same of the Berger camp.

Hi-long time reader, first time poster

[Cocoa]

142. don't worry

Bush was AWOL, and everyone knows it, and it has nothing to do with Berger.

[NMDemDist2]

150. welcome to DU doglover

why worry? have berger release what and why do we care? berger isn't on a ballot anywhere is he?

:hi:

[Shakespeare]

156. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Right.

[InkAddict]

166. Welcome to DU doglover

Quote the raven: Lurk no more!

[MallRat]

171. Welcome to DU!

:party: :toast: :party:

[Media_Lies_Daily]

208. I wish I knew what point you were trying to make.

[deacon]

146. They are not new. There are still no attendence records. n/t

[stickdog]

159. Operation Desert Shun (nt)

[Myrina]

160. In a box on the 6th floor of the Texas Schoolbook Depository ?

:shrug: Never can tell with these mo-fo's ....

[Joanne98]

175. This looks like a good website

http://www.awolbush.com/

[RebelYell]

177. Check this out

Bush was in the plant biz, flying to Central America for a horticultural company.

"It was really quite amazing. Here was this young guy making acquisitions of tropical plants and then up and leaving to fly fighter planes."

"A MadCowMorningNews investigation into the controversy currently swirling around President George W. Bush’s service in the National Guard has uncovered evidence indicating that Bush’s disputed “lost year” is not the only period of time during his abbreviated stint in the Guard that remains shrouded in mystery.

Conventional wisdom about Bush is that he spent the more poorly-documented stretches of his Guard service somewhere with his cowboy boots up on a desk, pulling the tab on another ‘tall cold one.’ The questions being asked are on the order of: Did daddy pull strings to get him a cozy billet? Did he actually show up for duty?

But conventional wisdom has a way of often being wrong. Evidence unearthed in our investigation indicates that George W. Bush, while supposedly serving in the Texas Guard in 1971, may instead have been detailed to the massive covert operation of the U.S. government going on at that very moment in Central America."

Operation Condor!

Plants my ass!

http://www.madcowprod.com/mc4612004.html

[yardwork]

179. Shrub (lol) probably was involved in Operation Condor

but not for long. If he had been a success, he would have been offered a follow-up job with the CIA or the Nixon or Ford administration...but he wasn't.

Shrub's career took a big nose dive. My guess is that while he was supposed to be flying planes undercover he was really sampling the local produce and stuffing it up his nose.

In other words, Shrub was as much a failure as a spook as he was at everything else.

Just another pathetic rich drug-addicted alcoholic failure.

[RebelYell]

181. Bullseye

nt

[liveoaktx]

185. Were this a murder trial and Bush's alibi rested on these records

the prosecutor would have a field day.

"Mr. Smirk, where were you on those dates?"

"I was in Alabama, honest, not flying to Columbia, I can prove it! But I don't think you can look at my records, the dog ate them!"

"Mr. Smirk, we have a copy of your paycheck stubs and your alibi has fallen apart"

"No, No, I really was in Alabama. There's another record, but no one knows how to find it!"

"Mr. Smirk, we have a copy of your complete payroll record and you STILL show to be missing on the dates in question. Do you have any other alibi other than your word?"

"No, but don't you believe me? Isn't my body language telling you I am an honest, upstanding guy? Let me pound my fist your direction again so that you can see how I act."

"Jury, I ask you to ignore Mr. Smirk's statements. His abilis do not hold water and in two instances, confirm he was not where he said he was on the dates in question."

"No, No, Please don't kill me......."

[Joanne98]

201. Has anybody done a timeline yet?

n/t

[Joanne98]

203. James R. Bath thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2053861

Good work..........

[struggle4progress]

206. Take this advice, Democrats

THE ARMCHAIR STRATEGIST
Take this advice, Democrats
By Dan Payne
July 24, 2004
<snip>
Have ex-Senator Max Cleland, who left three limbs in Vietnam, share this recent news: "Military payroll records that could more fully document President Bush's whereabouts during his service in the Texas Air National Guard were inadvertently destroyed, according to the Pentagon."
<snip>
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2004/07/24/take_this_advice_democrats/

July 24, 2004
Discovered: George Bush's Military Records
<snip>
The records conveniently appeared on a Friday afternoon as all reporters were leaving for the Democratic National Convention.
For a complete listing of the previously obtained documents ( http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/document.htm ).
http://www.washingtondispatch.com/spectrum/archives/000426.html

Bush's Military Records Fail to Dispel AWOL Charges
Friday, July 23, 2004 7:15 p.m. ET
By Adam Entous
<snip>
In February, the White House released hundreds of pages of Bush's military records. The White House included a footnote to those earlier records saying that files for the 3rd quarter of 1972 had apparently been lost in microfilm processing.
<snip>
The Pentagon had announced on July 9 that microfilm payroll records of large numbers of service members, including Bush, were ruined in 1996 and 1997 in a project to save large, brittle rolls of microfilm.
http://wireservice.wired.com/wired/story.asp?section=Breaking&storyId=897643&tw=wn_wire_story


Payne's advice is still good, mutatis mutandis

[jmowreader]

209. It took 'em THIS LONG to gin him up a set of payroll records?

Come on. What's wrong with these people?

You get a payroll record form from Bush's time in the Air National Guard. Scan it into your computer and erase the old names from it. Make a plate, run a few hundred copies on a duplicator press, then burn the plate, and you're ready for fun and hijinks!

Next, you get on eBay and buy an old Selectric, or you look around in back rooms until you find one.

Then you type up a set of payroll records for Bush, all nice and shiney clean, with no indication of AWOL at all. You make him look like a careful and fastidious adherent to the training schedule, for only through proper diligence and wholehearted attendance could Lieutenant Bush have possibly hoped to keep Charlie from invading Dallas.

Finally, you find whoever was the personnel officer in Bush's squadron, and run him over with a car. Because if some unknowing idiot were to go on television and say "I never saw records like that, or Lieutenant Bush for that matter," it blows the whole scheme.

[symbolman]

210. Kick

KIck

[LanternWaste]

212. Dammit...

Dammit!

I knew walking out of the door on Fri I'd be away from the news for the weekend and told myself, "I have a sneaky feeling something having to do with the Plame case or AWOL's DD-214 will come on on the Friday news releases..."

Can't believe this is the first I've heard of this on DU today, though. Any new info yet?