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UpInArms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 07:57 AM
Original message
Panel: Berger didn't impede Sept. 11 report
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0407240193jul24,1,1785528.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed

(free registration or try www.bugmenot.com)

WASHINGTON -- The commission investigating the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks was able to get every document needed to complete its report on the attacks even though former National Security Adviser Samuel "Sandy" Berger improperly took some classified terrorism materials from the National Archives, commissioners said Friday.

Commission Chairman Thomas Kean said that he and the panel's vice chairman, Lee Hamilton, were told by Bush administration officials about six months ago that the Justice Department was investigating Berger and the documents' removal.

The commission staff concluded that no document that was deemed essential to completion of the panel's 567-page report was withheld or lost because of Berger's actions, Kean said.

...more...
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 08:54 AM
Response to Original message
1. No, but Bush certainly did.
This is such a bogus story. Are there ANY republicans with decent ethics?
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Frodo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 09:03 AM
Response to Original message
2. I prefer Colbert King's take on it in today's WashPost
Edited on Sat Jul-24-04 09:05 AM by Frodo
Set aside Republican speculation that former Clinton national security adviser Samuel "Sandy" Berger was trying to hide classified information from the Sept. 11 commission or that he had provided the material to the Kerry campaign. Do likewise with Democratic suspicions that the FBI's investigation of Berger was leaked to distract attention from the commission's report. Those concerns, all unproven, are partisan and secondary. Keep the focus where it belongs. Did Sandy Berger violate the rules regarding the protection of classified information entrusted to him, and if he did, will he be held accountable for his actions?

Edit for link - http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A10451-2004Jul23.html

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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. I totally disagree with King
he says the primary issue is the criminal case, and that the politics is secondary, and suggests that Berger somehow will not be held accountable.

In fact, there has been a criminal investigation ongoing for almost a year, with no charges filed. If Berger committed a crime, he will be held accountable for it, and there's no evidence he's getting any kind of pass.

Now there's the matter of the Ken Starr nature of the leak, the politically calculated timing of it, and the Clinton-era-style overreaction and embellishment of the story, along with the familiar playing-along done by the mainstream media.

THAT'S the important, timely part of the story.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Rose Siding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. You have a link for that assertion?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Rose Siding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. That says the opposite of what you posted
Edited on Sat Jul-24-04 10:01 AM by party_line
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. lol
thanks for the laugh, and welcome to DU! :-)

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UpInArms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #7
15. welcome to DU Pro_Life_Democrat
:hi:

Since you are obviously a newbie, you may not have realized that NewsMax is really not a reputable news source - they are a rightwing smear rag and the column that you have linked to is all innuendo and assertion without a shred of evidence for the aspersions cast. That particular writer is merely a gossip-monger and doesn't have a reputation for "news" that would qualify to dispel or disperse valid information.

Please seek another source for future rebuttals.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #7
23. I'll never forget the time Newsmax leaked the Elián Gonzalez story
which was allegedly handed to them by a "neighbor" peering over her fence next door to the couple which gave a dinner for the Gonzalez family and their hosts and associates in Georgetown, where they were staying, waiting until they could return home.
"These photos were taken in a hurry and through the window of one the bedrooms of my sister's house. I just wanted to post them as soon as possible. Please, forgive the quality of some of the photos, but there wasn't much time to prepare for this.

"In one photo, Elian can be seen through the bushes holding a box. While most of the kids played in the backyard of the house, Elian was not allowed to be in the backyard for anymore than a few minutes at a time.

"Even though he tried to get out several times, he was prevented from so doing.

"In another photo it can be appreciated to the left of the Central AC unit, what appears to be a Gargoyle like figurine. It is a Santeria Deity, plain and simple. It used to be located by the main entrance of the house on the steps leading to the front door. Some have said that it is an effigy representing Eleggua, the opener of the roads in the Santeria pantheon of deities.
http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=2000/6/19/95231

Here's the photo in question.



Oh, PATHETIC! It's one of those millions of garden leprechauns, gnomes, etc. made from molds, and sold everywhere, even at Walmart, etc., etc. and it's placed by their trash bin, or whatever. Holy moly!

Yep, your right-wing lunatic Newsmax was off and running with the news they had spotted a Santaría deity, and were vodoo practitioners.
You probably don't hear of NewsMax getting too many journalism awards, do you?

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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. Really? Where did you read that? Please post a link
I'd really like to see it. Got a link, a source, an article? Got anything to back up your assertion? Anything at all?
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Rose Siding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. He denied it to "Newsmax"
That's supposed to be the 'admission' :eyes:
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. but he was "laughing nervously"
Newsmax cracks me up. :-)

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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #12
20. That was the first time I've ever seen that in a "news" publication
They actually wrote "(laughing nervously)" in to mold the readers' perception of Lanny Davis' psychological state. Poor, stupid people.

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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. Just read that - cross post with you!
I couldn't wait to read all the responses before I posted! lol!

I love how Newsmax has to slant even the parentheticals. They have Davis "laughing nervously". And then they insist that Davis' has made an admission when what he said is, "if it had been up to me, we would have given this story to the press last October - but the timing of its release now is very suspicious."

Anyway, our new friend will find quite a reception here at DU for himself and his Newsmax links! lol!
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Frodo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. Where?
I don't see that in the article linked.

He's been a bit coy on the whole issue. See my #13 for why it hardly matters.
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Frodo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. The "Source" of the accusation is Mark Levin
As well as a number of RW commentators.

To be fair, they mostly say it's a "Lanny Davis TYPE of leak". That is, in his book, Lanny talked about precisely this type of situation - that you know bad news is going to come out - so YOU control how it comes out and have a prepared spin to go with it. I've speculated the possibility here a couple times - but consider it a less than 50-50 chance in this case.

Their argument gets some strength by the fact that 1) The origin of the story is the SAME AP reporter Lanny used more than once to leak damaging Clinton information and 2) (at least the times I've read about) Lanny has been evasive when asked if he DID leak it. In fact, yesterday he said "Is there a possibility that someone other than the Republicans are the source of the leak? Sure."


But here's the point: It doesn't MATTER if Lanny (or Kerry) leaked the story. If they DID, it was to defuse it's future use (like in November). Which means they KNEW the other side INTENDED to use it for political gain. Same difference.
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Rose Siding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #13
18. No, here's the point: wing-nut lies matter
And to be really fair, the blurb at that link strongly implied it was Davis.
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #13
19. sure it matters
why wouldn't it matter if the White House leaked this story to smear Kerry and divert attention from the Sept. 11 report?

And you really give it a 50-50 chance that a Kerry ally would leak this right before the report comes out, and right before the convention?
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Frodo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. No, I meant it doesn't matter if Davis did it...
Because IF he did, it was because he knew THEY were going to leak it closer to the election.

So either THEY leaked it... or they WERE GOING to leak it later. In neither case do they come to the table with clean hands.

And no, I said less than 50-50 (I started at 20% with the idea LONG before the Limbaughs of the world came up with the thought. The chances have grown (IMO) because of the way Davis has talked about it and because of how effective the spin has been.

It's still more likely to be the Republicans, but I only say that because we STILL don't know what the final act is (what did that memo and marginal notes SAY!?). If there's something there that hurts Kerry, then I say WE leaked it to avoid the politically more potent October leak. If it's largely just about Berger and/or the 9/11 comission then THEY did it because NOW is the best time for them and not us.

In either case, it looks like it was at least anticipated by Kerry's team and they had our spin ready.
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creeksneakers2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #13
24. If this was a leak for containment
they wouldn't have included the nonsense about Berger being seen stuffing papers in his pants and jacket.

Berger was in a private room and had plenty of time to hide the documents without being seen. If he had been seen I'm sure he would have been stopped.

From Berger's perspective, there was a good chance that this story would never come out, because the FBI downgraded the investigation. The number of people Berger told was very limited and there was no reason to include Lanny Davis in this at all.

I've checked Newsmax transcripts before and plenty of times they've left out lines or completely misquoted people. Newsmax just flat out lies at least once a day about something.

But, if the Davis quotes are accurate, it sounds more to me like he's trying to plug his book and letting RW attacks provide publicity for it.
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #5
21. think about it
The timing of the leak did not benefit Democrats. The 9-11 report was about to be released, with potential to harm Bush. Why would Dems get in the way of that? If the Berger story were going to be leaked for the benefit of Dems, better timing would be in August.

However, the timing of the leak DOES fit Rove's pattern of headline grabbing. To a T.
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Frodo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. We don't know that.
The timing of the leak may indeed benefit us. We don't know what the final story is.

Imagine that the documents in question are 9/11 related, but the real problem is something to do with Kerry. Leaking it now (but not giving the full story) makes it look alot like a 9/11 realted problem and thus the timing implies the Republicans did it. THAT's the best time to leak a story - when you can blame the leak on the other side.

But we're opperating on the assumption that nobody on our side ever does anything wrong. There very well might be damning information on those documents that would turn out to hurt Kerry. We don't know, but Berger's behavior is more than suspicious.

For all the bluster... we don't REALLY know anything unless/until we know the contents of what he took.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. There are multiple copies of all the documents.
To find what he took from the room, it's easy to see what's missing from the original number by doing a quick inventory on what's left in the viewing room, and comparing. That would be accurate if someone else hadn't taken away material.

It was written and repeated several days ago that the material he was reviewing pertained to information he needed to see again on the Clinton Presidency and its perception of and actions concerning various threats and events, as he was going before a committee to testify, and needed to brush up.
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Frodo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. There's nothing that says that.
It depends on what is meant by "copy". And the fact that he took ALL FIVE "copies" of one document is potentially telling.

People are acting like there is an untouchable supply of "originals" and all anyone gets to see are "copies" - so that's all he could have taken. Well, that alone would be illegal and would get a lower level person fired, cost him his security clearance, and the possibility of any future jobs for the government above janitor.

But that isn't the only possibility. Let me draw a possible picture.

Say there is a highly classified memo about terrorism JUST for senior staff to view - or perhaps it's a draft of a memo for wider distribution but the final policy is not settled on yet (they're debating some points). The President gets one (maybe he takes some notes on what to do), the VP gets one (same thing), the Chief of Staff, the Secretary of State, and maybe a chief political advisor (and each of the three makes their own comments in the margins).

Now.. there are five "copies" floating around. ALL FIVE would be archived and classified, but they wouldn't all say the same things. Imagine that in the meeting discussing the policy they have each taken additional notes in the margins of their "copy".

NOW Berger taking five (every) "copies" of the document is not only more serious, but incredibly damning. He would obviously be trying to keep something secret. Perhaps something damaging to HIM only ("Berger said 'that Osama is such a nice guy - we should have him BACK over to the Lincoln bedroom some time'"), OR to the administration as a whole ("Clinton agreed") OR something damaging in some way to Kerry (I can't even imagine - but perhaps related to Kerry's proposed terrorism policies - some of which were removed from the campaing right after Berger resigned).

I have seen no report that says "we know EVERYTHING that was in EVERY one of those documents that is now missing". This could be all about nothing, or just Act 1 of a much longer play. We'll know eventually.
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creeksneakers2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #5
25. Pro Life Democrat
I'm glad you read Democratic Underground. Please see what is there and not what you expect to see. I don't see anybody saying that the leaker should be prosecuted.
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Frances Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #4
22. And it was leaked to Susan Schmidt of the Washington Post
Shades of Monica! Why didn't they at least leak it to a different reporter? Any article with Steno Sue's name on it is an article with a Repubican agenda.
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Frodo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #22
30. No it wasn't. It was leaked to John Solomon at AP
Who was the same reporter Lanny Davis used for his leaks. AND he said as much in an interview yesterday. Which would bring new meaning to your question: "Why didn't they at least leak it to a different reporter?"

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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 09:22 AM
Response to Original message
3. This news brings a little welcome perspective, UpInArms.
They who laugh last will laugh best, right?
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
17. Richard Clarke is saying that there are copies of what Berger...
...allegedly took all over Washington, DC.

On top of that, the repository where Berger was working only keeps copies of the original documents. The originals are kept under strict lock and key.
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StatBabe Donating Member (28 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #17
31. This agrees with reports that I have read and heard...
Thomas Keane has said repeatedly that their committee saw EVERYTHING--that they got their documents from the NSC. Certainly, Sandy Berger would realize that the NSC would have all these classified documents that he had perused at the Archives anyway. Hence, the contention made by some that Berger was trying to hide something seems unlikely. David Gergen said that Sandy Berger took copies, NOT originals! Berger's attorney also indicated that the papers in question were actually copies.

In an interview on MSNBC, Berger's attorney also indicated that he had thought that the matter had been put to rest back in January. In addition, both David Gergen and John McCain have defended Sandy Berger, and I probably put a heck of a lot more faith in those two than in the myriad of idiot journalists and partisan Republicans that have rushed to point an accusing finger at Mr. Berger.

Sadly, it does not matter if this matter with the classified documents arose completely innocently, as contended by Sandy Berger himself, because the leaking of this information essentially has the effect of making it impossible for Sandy Berger to ever get Senate confirmation for a high-level position in government again.

Personally, I tend to believe Berger's explanation of events for the following reasons:

(1) Journalists are often lazy and will jump on a sensational story without proper sourcing, as anyone familiar with the details of Whitewater, from the beginning, certainly knows. Hence, I tend to take a "wait-and-see" attitude toward stories like this where it is clear that one side is attempting to seek partisan advantage. Regardless of what the real story with Berger is, the fact that the GOP has attempted to smear Kerry, Berger, and Clinton with this story makes it transparently obvious that the GOP has certainly jumped on this for ONE reason--partisan advantage!

(2) The Republicans that have gone out of their ways to "tar and feather" Sandy Berger are some of the biggest partisan snakes in the GOP. After the campaign that Saxby Chambliss conducted against Max Cleland, there is NO WAY that I would believe much of anything he has to say! Ditto for the exterminator from Texas. In contrast, less partisan Republicans, like David Gergen and John McCain, have defended Berger and indicated that they would find it hard to believe that there was anything nefarious in what Berger had done.

(3) There was much ado made about the fact that Sandy Berger had taken notes out of the Archives. However, Berger's note-taking was NOT a criminal violation--a point that is readily conceded by just about everyone involved. Instead, it was a violation of Archives policy because Berger did not go through the procedure of having the employees at the National Archives read his notes and approve him taking them with him. I suspect that Berger was merely trying to save time--particularly if he actually had taken voluminous notes, which does appear to be the case. One thing that no one has discussed is whether this particular Archives procedure is a rule that is commonly ignored by people like Berger. I could easily envision a laxity with this sort of thing when someone like Sandy Berger or Condi Rice is scheduled to appear before a congressional committee or some commission in closed session where everyone to hear the testimony would have appropriate security clearance themselves for the documents in question.

(4) According to all those on the 9/11 Commission, copies of all of the documents in question were made available to them through the NSC so it would have made no sense for Berger to attempt to destroy them. Besides, it is my understanding that some of the papers were from a report that Berger had tasked Richard Clarke to prepare--not exactly the sort of thing that one would expect Berger to be trying to bury.

(5) Unless the media have it all wrong, Clinton and former members of his administration have sought to declassify and make public thousands of pages of documents related to counter-terrorism because of the attempts of the Bush administration to scapegoat them for 9/11. (I am not saying that the Clinton administration does not share some of the blame for 9/11, but clearly, there is plenty of blame to go around to every administration over the past 20 years!)

I suppose that I feel a fair amount of empathy for Mr. Berger because I am one of those people who has an office with papers all over the place. Similarly, it does not matter how "important" the information contained within a particular document--I can still manage to bury it under a pile of other documents and be unable to find it! Although I do not handle government classified documents, I do handle data that contain private information about people in various clinical studies. Hence, there is still an expectation that the information I have will not go anyplace else--and it won't! But that doesn't prevent me from being very disorganized with piles and piles of papers all over the place! Also, in the past, I know that I have inadvertently taken a single journal out of the library and committed similar "violations" of library rules--most of the time I did these things without even knowing it! Thus, it is fairly easy for me to see how someone like Sandy Berger could get his butt in a sling for being a disorganized pig.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 12:11 AM
Response to Original message
32. kick
:kick:
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