Belief in Hell Boosts Growth: Fed Report

[stevedeshazer]

By Alister Bull

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Economists searching for reasons why some nations are richer than others have found that those with a wide belief in hell are less corrupt and more prosperous, according to a report by the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis.

<snip>


"In countries where large percentages of the population believe in hell, there seems to be less corruption and a higher standard of living", the St. Louis Fed said in its July quarterly review.

more... http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040727/bs_nm/economy_hell_dc_1

[lovedems]

1. Oh-My-God.

Now we have intertwined religion with economics.

WTF?

[stevedeshazer]

3. Call it "faith-based economics" I guess

Maybe we can put Jerry Falwell on the dollar bill.

[lovedems]

8. I am surprised smirky hasn't called for Jesus to be put on the dollar bill

"faith based economics" I love it!:D

[Ganja Ninja]

54. Maybe we need to change the "In God We Trust" line to ...

In God We Trust - In Satan We Believe!

[struggle4progress]

67. kick for faith-based economics!

great line!
:kick:

[ck4829]

2. I don't believe in it and I'm doing just fine

The scary thing is Bush just may use it as a case for war against nations that have a more pluralistic religion than him and his supporters.

[stevedeshazer]

4. Your government does!

Get with the program, heathen! It will make you more prosperous and less corrupt! :)

[Joanne98]

5. Just when you think you've heard it all

They manage to come up with something even more absurd. Watch Pat Robertson pick this one up. geez

[Pathwalker]

6. Then why isn't Our economy rocking?

To hear the righties talk, we're a God-fearing nation, so why isn't it sky-rocketing?

[Catch22Dem]

7. Are you FUCKING kidding me?

I can't wait till my dad hears this one. He's gonna blow a gasket.

[thebigidea]

9. It takes a strange mind to attribute economic success to a belief in hell

[yankeeinlouisiana]

10. Ok, if this is true

then explain to me about Mexico and South America. Those are mainly catholic countries and I keep hearing about poverty in those areas.

[hatrack]

12. Yup - now we know why Argentina's been doing so well lately

Belief in hell is, apparently, strong enough to overcome IMF sanctions, government corruption & cynicism and crushing debt burdens, too!

[Canuckistanian]

52. Not to mention widespread corruption

[amandabeech]

60. Don't forget all those fundamentalists in Scandinavia.

Those countries have extremely low levels of corruption and a high standard of living for most citizens.

Perhaps all those Scandiavian Lutherans are big on hell.

[lostnfound]

65. A nation that is religious can be easily exploited by the overlords.

That's my theory, anyway. Bet these guys don't measure a nation's prosperity by the absence of poverty so much as by instances of extreme wealth.

[liberalmuse]

11. Well that makes sense.

They 'believe' in hell. Much of the world doesn't have to believe in hell. They are already living in it. I imagine the people who have the luxury of merely believing in hell are probably better off in the first place. Who did that dumbfucking study, the Falwell Institute?

[Trillo]

13. How can a corporation believe in Hell? nt

[R Hickey]

14. Belief in Christmas promotes Christmas spending!

I don't think it requires any great leap of logic to observe that not just religious holidays, but that also other superstitious activities and beliefs will effect various cultures in economic ways.

[54anickel]

15. WHAT?!?!?!

Talk about picking and choosing items and publishing them without the full context. I went to the actual Fed site to read the essay. Seems event he Fed made some changes to what they originally posted.

How freakin bizarre.

http://www.stlouisfed.org/publications/re/2004/c/pages/fear_of_hell.html

Editor's Note: Several paragraphs at the end of this article have been changed because the original article contained an error in its analysis of the data. The original chart has also been deleted and replaced with two new ones. The conclusion of the article, however, remains the same. I would like to thank two alert readers, Frederick Marki and John Early, for pointing out the error to us.

[Trillo]

28. correlation coefficient is much closer to zero on the...

...on the "fear of hell" versus "corruption" ranks. This is easily seen on the graph in the widely varying lengths of dots from the regression line over it's length. It can even be seen fairly easily on the raw data in the right hand column.

On the other hand, the correlation looks pretty good on the "GDP per capita" versus "corruption" ranks. It is also much more easily eyeballed where the regression line likely is. I wonder, though, how is the "corruption" measured?

My bottom line is that the authors are grasping at flames, at least so far as the title and "hell" is concerned. Maybe they're trying to make the BF and "associates" happy.

[54anickel]

29. I had a difficult time determining the conclusion of the report after

reading that Editor's note. Seemed there were several conclusions that were drawn and cited. Maybe it's just me, but I certainly didn't come away with any definitive conclusion - but then again I didn't read it all THAT closely - it's just too bizarre.

You can't make this stuff up.

[aquart]

16. What interesting linkage: "less corrupt and more prosperous."

They believe their prosperous little selves are "less corrupt." Isn't that adorable?

[jukes]

17. speechless

jukes can't even rant on this.

[Mari333]

18. Hell (HEL)was originally a Nordic Goddess, according to mythology

Good luck getting people to actually read mythology!

http://www.glamourjunkies.com/wych/norsegoddesses.html

[AlienGirl]

23. This is a more expansive definition..

http://www.gods-heros-myth.com/norse/hel.html

Hel was known as the queen goddess of the underworld. She was originally raised in Asgard with her father, but was later given the underworld of Nifelheim/Helheim as her domain. She presided over all of the dead but those who were killed in battle. Those who died heroically in battle ended up in Valhalla, the Hall of the Heroes. She was the sole goddess to decide the fate of those souls who entered her domain.

This expands on Niflheim itself.

http://www.pantheon.org/articles/n/niflheim.html

Niflheim ("house of mists") is the far northern region of icy fogs and mists, darkness and cold. It is situated on the lowest level of the universe. The realm of death, Helheim is part of the vast, cold region. Niflheim lies underneath the third root of Yggdrasil, close to the spring Hvergelmir ("roaring cauldron"). Also situated on this level is Nastrond, the Shore of Corpses, where the serpent Nidhogg eats corpses and gnaws on the roots of Yggdrasil.

After Ragnarok, there will be a hall here for the punishment of murderers, oath breakers, and philanderers.

Our modern interpretation of Hell is about as far removed from the original definition as it can be.

[rfkrocks]

19. Father Greenspan-its been 10 quarters since my last rate increase

The Fed is now studying belief in the afterlife-the next thing you know the Supreme Court will be picking our next President-wait a minute

[struggle4progress]

20. Horse hockey! Do a linear regression with the data ...

... in the "Does Fear of Hell Pay Off?" table at
http://www.stlouisfed.org/publications/re/2004/c/pages/fear_of_hell.html
by using a spreadsheet, for example.

When I do the regression, I discover: each addition 1% of the population believing in hell reduces per capita income by $113.39.

Damn! No wonder the economy is tanking! Let's get rid of these idiot ideologues and put some genuine thinkers and real doers in charge.

[daleo]

32. I did a multiple regression in Excel with the following result

I don't have anything better on my home computer, so I just used the Excel data analysis package. But this type of quack social science probably doesn't deserve better anyway.

Coefficients (P-value)
Intercept 37.0 (0.00)
Belief-in-Hell Rank -0.156 (0.11)
Corruption Rank -0.902 (0.00)

Both the Belief-in-Hell Rank and Corruption Rank have negative coefficients, so high ranks in these correspond to low ranks in GDP. This supports their goofy theory, but note that the Belief-in-Hell Rank coefficient p-value is only .11, so it is not actually statistically significant, and ought to be dropped from the model. So, the only thing they really have here is the result that countries that rank high in corruption tend to rank low in GDP.

Also, the fact that they took continuous data (GDP, pct of pop who believe in hell, corruption index) and transformed the data into ranks for their model seems dicey to me, like they were fishing for a pre-determined result.

[struggle4progress]

33. I don't believe that regression involving "rank" ...

... is intellectually defensible. I realize the Fed has graphics on its webpage showing the results of such regressions, but rank is an integer-valued variable, which is not intrinsic to each country but depends on the particular countries sampled: any statistical techniques appropriate to anmalysis of rank should be nonparametric.

[daleo]

34. I agree that would be the way to go

I just used their spreadsheet and went ahead and did what I assumed they did to see if I could get something like the result they were talking about. Since they started with GNP (ratio data), Pct of pop who believe in Hell (ratio data, although a transformation might be needed to use it in regression) and corruption index (not sure how they constructed this), it didn't make much sense for them to use ranked data, especially with regression.

I will admit I didn't spend a lot of time on the actual article, just skimmed it, assuming that it would be nonsense anyway.

[struggle4progress]

35. No, you're right: the article's not worth much time. eom

[modrepub]

38. Ridiculous

I work with correlation coefficients and was taught anything under .33 was random. Things don't start getting interesting until coefficients get near .67. I can't believe there aren't any statisticians working for the fed office who don't know this.

[Kitsune]

21. This is the single most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Ever. *nt*

[Solly Mack]

22. ROFLMAOPIMP And these people saying this are American?

living in America? Are they blind?

[LiberalVoice]

24. I don't believe in Hell, Heaven, or God...

No wonder I just sit in front of my computer smoking pot and watching the simpsons on DVD all day.

[PhuLoi]

25. Lou Dobbs called bullshit on that story when it was read

on his program. Lou pointed out that South America has a population that predominately believes in the existance of hell and that their economy blows.

[mom cat]

26. Wealth also correlates with shoe size, skin pigmentation etc

Also, how is corruption measured? By all measures of corruption in this country exceeds anything in history. In fact, the history of western civilization for at least the last 500 years wealth has been primarily built on corruption, theft, slaughter and making life hell for others. In those respects, the correlation is correct. As J. R. Ewing once said: "Once you loose your ethics, the rest is easy". The study's conclusion and the history that accompanies it are a shameful statement on our values and what we mean by "wealth"

[customerserviceguy]

27. The thing that's hard to believe about this

is that when you consider the highly religious societies of South America, and the Middle East, both of which have a "hell" concept, and wide acceptance of it, you have institutionalized payoffs as the norm of doing business. I severely question the methodology used to arrive at this conclusion.

[kodi]

30. antipation of the rapture has people bathing more too

no one wants to meet st pete at the pearly gates smelling and in dirty drawers.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

31. What bull!

More:

Ellen Johnson, president of American Atheists Inc., called the study the latest gimmick from the religious establishment to drum up government support.

"Religious people cannot rely on their theology to promote what they do so they turn to other things," she said.

I'm with her! Don't forget to rate this story with a big fat 1.

[stevedeshazer]

36. Regarding your subject line

Did you see the name of the author in the original post? :)

[GoddessOfGuinness]

61. lol

Actually, I hadn't...:)

[Merlin]

37. Proves only a correlation between corruption and GDP, which makes sense.

Analysis noted by posters above indicate there is no statistically significant correlation between "Belief in Hell" and Corruption. But there is a significant correlation between high corruption and low GDP. So their premise is just false, and characteristic of the penchant for bending truth to fit ideology that permeates this administration.

Friends, we are in the final days of the new counter-enlightenment. Bring out the guillotine!

[Kinkistyle]

39. How about eating bread?

it seems like there is a relationship to a good economy and bread-eating as well, it could be that.

[Art_from_Ark]

48. Of course, in propserous Asian countries like Japan

people tend to eat more rice than bread:D

[0007]

40. Yanking the chain of the superstitious is a past time with

these ignorant assholes.

[NewHampshireDem]

41. Two Words: Data Mining ...

and poor data mining at that, as has been pointed out by those who referenced Lou Dobb's comments.

I think he also said something like, "We spent tax money on this?"

[arwalden]

42. Un Fucking Believable!! -- Okay, Explain TURKEY.

The country, not the fowl.

-- Allen

[Mikimouse]

43. Part of this makes perfect sense...

The relationship of the economy to religion has been very elegantly discussed by Max Weber in 'The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism'. The part about corruption is counterintuitive.

[thinkingwoman]

44. I used to write fiction

but obviously I was an amateur.

It's non-fiction for me now! I can't make up anything that tops this b.s.!

[stevedeshazer]

62. It's been said before

You can't make this up!

[leesa]

45. So, if you don't believe in what the corporate economists tell you. then

you'll go to hell??? This is obscene. If they are talking about the current crop of Fundie "Christians", it ain't because they are prosperous, it's because they are criminals.

[JNelson6563]

46. Fear of an all loving god

Nothing like the need to save your own ass to inspire you to treat others fairly. Ugh.

If someone need to be kept in line with fear of a great hit man in the sky then I feel sorry for them.

Julie

[Jokerman]

47. Thinly veiled anti-semitism.

Correct me if I'm wrong but persons of the Jewish faith don't believe in hell, therefore, according to this, they must be corrupt.

Utter Bullshit.

[rman]

51. do muslism believe in hell? anti-muslimism?

if not, does that mean it's also anti-muslimism?

[central scrutinizer]

49. saw an appropriate bumper sticker today

"Religion was invented to keep the poor from murdering the rich"

[Art_from_Ark]

53. That quote is attributed to Napoleon

who must have said it before the French Revolution

[tlcandie]

50. Yup FEAR always works to keep people corraled and subjugated!

TERRA... FEAR.... TERRA.... FEAR.... HELL.... BOOGEY MAN....FEAR.... TERRA... COMMIES....LIBERALS...HELL....GAYS....

:puke:

When will we grow up in this world and act like adults?

[johnlal]

55. Paramount cause of 9/11

The 9/11 independent commission cited "lack of imagination" as a cause of our failures during the crisis. It makes sense. Our President and Attorney General both believe whatever they read in the Bible. In fact, they censor scientific data if it conflicts with their narrow view of the world. Is it any wonder that we lack sufficient imagination to combat the dangers we face in this world?

[Fovea]

56. This is a huge steaming plate full of crap

and a great sign that the seperation of church and state has completely collapsed. Fire this little angel, right away.

[denverbill]

57. I guess that explains Latin America. All those Roman Catholics.

That explains why Mexico's cops are virtually all on the take and why Mexico is so wealthy.

[BiggJawn]

58. So you have to believe in the Boogie-man to be honest?

Not because it's the RIGHT thing to do?

"I'm not gonna take your investment account and blow it all on whores, because I don't want to go to Hell...No, the idea that its just plain wrong never entered my feeble little brain..."

Read Carl Sagan's "The Demon-Haunted World".
Make your kids read it, too.

[MrBenchley]

59. I will say the word "Argentina" and you will awaken from your trance...

[Dover]

63. And the Federal Reserve Bank is the DEVIL!!!

We must exorcise the Fed before it throws up more green scum!

[wickerwoman]

64. When the white man came, we had the land and he had the Bibles.

When he left, he had the land and we had the Bibles.

Yeah, I buy that a "belief" in religion correlates to economic efficiency.

Excuse me while I go sunbathe on this great bridge I bought last week.

[Maeve]

66. Correlation does NOT EQUAL causality

The rooster crows and thinks he made the sun rise...:eyes:

[DBoon]

68. Max Weber stated this more eloquently

and with more sociological insight:

The Protestan Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism
http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/WEBER/cover.html

Belief in hell is correlated with a severe type of protestantism, in turn associated with the formation of modern capitalism.

If anything it is a historical evolution of social systems, not a function of one's current religious affiliation.

[kori]

69. Marx got one thing right

Religion is the opiate of the masses. I guess the Fed just proved his point. Thank you Thank you Thank you

[DBoon]

72. Not in this case..

Here religion is more like the amphetamine of the masses, pushing them to superhuman scales of endurance, building capitalist economies on the sweat of their ruined and exhausted bodies.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

70. Uh, ya, right, like Western Europe

Even when people there were religious, they weren't fundamentalists.

[buycitgo]

71. and the corollary

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=716941#716981

Fear of Death Wins Minds and Votes, Study Finds