Pope warns feminists

[kskiska]

Bishops told to take hard line on issue of gender

The Pope will call on leaders of the Roman Catholic church today to attack feminist ideologies which assert that men and women are fundamentally the same.

The Vatican is concerned that this belief is eroding what it regards as women's maternal vocation. But a paper on the subject which is due to be published today - the Vatican's third major pronouncement on women's role in the quarter century of John Paul's papacy - has drawn scornful criticism from feminists and academics.

According to a leaked extract, the document accuses feminists of "blurring the biological difference between man and woman".

(snip)

The Vatican's sights are trained in particular on the view that while people's sex is anatomically determined their gender identity and roles are entirely a product of conditioning. In a letter to bishops on the participation of men and women in the church and the world, the Pope's chief theological spokesman, the German cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, stresses, as the pontiff has done on several occasions, that the book of Genesis is unambiguous on this point.

more…
http://www.guardian.co.uk/pope/story/0,12272,1273140,00.html

[slinkerwink]

1. this feminist tells the pope to "shove it!"

[Pachamama]

20. This Feminist says to the Pope - "KEEP YOUR ROSARIES OFF MY OVARIES"

:grr:

[IndianaGreen]

61. He might like that! Oooooh, baby!

this feminist tells the pope to "shove it!

He might like that! Oooooh, baby!

What a misogynist!

What can we expect of a priesthood that has a pathological fear of women?

[Baltimoreboy]

65. You mean like their fear of Mary?

The Catholic Church doesn't fear women.

[IndianaGreen]

69. They always portray Mary wearing the Catholic version of a burqa

Miriam (which was Mary's Hebrew name) is always depicted by the Catholic Church as a virgin in order to deny her womanhood and she is always in a submissive role. She was none of those things!

[Baltimoreboy]

70. How do you know?

Were you there 2,000 years ago?

Come on, Catholic beliefs are based on faith. If you don't share it, you don't grasp it.

[IndianaGreen]

74. Well, let's look at this particular passage of the Gospel...

Jesus' Mother and Brothers

46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him.
47 Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you."
48 He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?"
49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers.

Gospel of Matthew, Chapter 12, verses 46-49

[Baltimoreboy]

79. You are debating theology with the wrong guy

I think you need to address your finer points to the pope.

[Name removed]

106. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[psychopomp]

145. I think what we can learn from this passage is

that Jesus put nothing between himself and his spiritual path, even his family. It may be a way for the storyteller that came before, this writer or even Jesus to demonstrate that relationship with God is more important than filial piety.

How is this related to Catholic attitudes towards women?

[tlcandie]

2. Can't he find something better to do with his remaining time?

eom

[Reverend_Smitty]

3. The Catholic church is so out of touch...

but what do you expect, it only took them 400 years to apologize to Galileo. The women's lib movement has only been about 40 years. Some times I'm really ashamed to be a Catholic.

[punpirate]

11. Yeah, but not to worry...

... they're on the job--the investigation into Copernicus is still ongoing....

[SemperEadem]

4. yeah, and if he could burn us at the stake as witches, he would

The Bishop of Rome can just shut the eff up.

[susanna]

28. Or...

"Shut the Cheney up, please."

(I added the "please" because I'm a traditional sort of gal.) ;-)

edited to mock myself

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

5. Feminists don't blur the biological differences

but the social differences, the economic differences.
Sounds to me like the bishop's agenda is to put women 'back in their places'. Appaerntly they don't know the power of Kali and her children.

[liberalmuse]

6. Take your patriarchal paradigm...

and in the words of one of my favorite women, 'Shove it!!!'

[TankLV]

7. This from an idiot who wears a dress, prefers to not marry, & who lives

only with other men.

Yeah, riiiiiigt!

Tank to Pope: Fuck you - who cares what you think.

Isn't it time his "god" called him home - long ago?!

[Baltimoreboy]

66. Anti-Catholic, homophobic and calling for the death of a religious leader

All in one post.

[IndianaGreen]

72. I gather you find no fault in the Pope's misogynists views...

May you be born female in your next life! Let's see how your attitude changes then.

Karma is powerful! :evilgrin:

[Baltimoreboy]

73. i was born and raised Catholic

I do not agree with everything the church says, but I remain Catholic and get wildly offended at the constant anti-Catholic attacks here that are more reminiscent of a 1920s Klan meeting than a progressive website.

[IndianaGreen]

76. I suggest to you that American Catholics do not share the Vatican's views

about the role of women, celibate priesthood, etc.

Most American Catholics do not subscribe to the Opus Dei inspired ideology that passes for Catholic theology nowadays. It is no secret that this particular Pope is surrounded by Opus Dei activists.

[Baltimoreboy]

82. It is their choice to leave if they don't agree

However, if they elect to stay, the pope remains the ultimate authority on such issues.

[oldcoot]

99. At one time, I would have agreed with you

Unfortunately, with Bush's faith-based crap, I may be obliged to subsidize the pope's bigotry with my tax dollars. Asking women to support faiths which discriminate against them is like asking African Americans and other minorities to subsidize churches that advocate white supremacy.

I hope that many women do follow your advice and leave. It will be interesting to see if the Catholic Church can survive with half of its members gone.

[squidbro]

188. The Pope doesn't keep it only to Catholics, unfortunately

The pope believes he is ultimate authority on ALL matters for ALL of mankind.

If he were to keep it to Catholics, that would be one thing. But he and the church do not. They believe that their theology applies to the whole of mankind over the entire planet.

It is wrong. Very wrong.

[Baltimoreboy]

203. Things that impact all mankind also impact Catholics

[October]

77. Yeah, me too, but...

I was born and raised Catholic as a girl -- a very different world from yours.

[calimary]

164. This born-and-raised Catholic girl agrees.

If you were a girl, you really WERE in a different world from what the boys experienced. The boys were on the "fast track" to the inside. Those who really felt The Calling could count on being able to proceed - and to go as far as they wanted to or were able to. They could be priests. They could administer the sacraments. They could be promoted and climb up the heirarchy. As Americans (at least where and when I went to school) it was pretty much assumed that you could go all the way to Cardinal, but that the top job would probably not ever go to an American. At least not in MY lifetime.

Girls had NO SUCH OPTIONS, or avenues, open to them. In fact, girls had few options of ANY sort. When I was a kid, some women were only beginning to wake up to the idea that there actually were more options than exclusively marrying and having kids and that's that. In the same vein, the conventional wisdom held that if girls wanted to study medicine, they'd be able to become nurses - NOT doctors. The MEN were the doctors. The women were the nurses and medical assistants and receptionists. And I always resented that.

[Susang]

189. I'll add a third vote of agreement to that opinion

12 years of Catholic school to boot. I had to leave when I finally couldn't take the thought of having to be the help-mate or assistant for the rest of my life.

I also could not accept that I, by nature of my gender, would carry the burden of "original sin" for the rest of my life. I rejected that notion for the bullshit it was back then and I reject it still.

[playahata1]

86. ANY organization that disrespects women, religious or secular,

DESERVES to be censured. Now go crawl back into your cave.

[Baltimoreboy]

87. How dare I defend my religion against the open bigotry

In this thread? Is that the gist?

[playahata1]

89. You are ignoring the issue.

The Roman Catholic Church is a sexist, homophobic -- and, need I say, archaic and anachronistic -- institution. By your ignoring these issues, you are endorsing sexism and homophobia, I don't care how you slice it. You are defending the indefensible.

[Baltimoreboy]

90. I am criticizing the open bigotry here

The Roman Catholic Church is a group you belong to VOLUNTARILY. If women don't like how the church treats them, they have the option to leave.

[Crowdance]

94. Criticism of bigotry isn't itself bigotry

The church insists on playing in the public arena--making itself fair game for examination, discussion and criticism of its statements. You play in traffic, you might get hit by a car. You wanna' be safe, stay on the sidewalk.

[Baltimoreboy]

107. The endless stream of anti-Catholic comments`

That always bash the church, the pope, claim that all priests are pedophiles and the pope is a man in a dress bear no relation to political commentary.

They are biogtry pure and simple.

[struggle4progress]

121. Keep it up, BB! There is really no excuse for some ...

... of the biased comments posted on this board.

[playahata1]

109. Thank You!

Despite what the Pope says, neither he nor any other element of the Church is infallible.

[LiberalFighter]

213. But those of other faiths or not of a religion don't have the choice

to leave the catholic church when laws are enacted to satisfy the demands of any religious leader or their followers.

[struggle4progress]

120. The Catholic Church is a huge institution and has produced ...

a number of progressive thinkers. While the Church has never been a uniformly progressive institution, and while reactionary tendencies continue to resurface, I very frequently find myself in close agreement with Catholics on a number of issues. In any case, most people are not ideological troglodytes.

Successful political work requires us to understand that people of equal intelligence and good-will may disagree. There is absolutely nothing to be gained from gratuitous unpleasantry.

Although I'm not Catholic, I still find your remarks offensive.

[October]

118. Well, I for one am wildly offended by your comments

If women don't like it, they're free to leave...

Talk about arrogant.

Are the church and pope infallible in your eyes?

Remember Galileo?

The Nazis?

Some of us think they're wrong about women. I just hope it doesn't take them another 5 centuries to apologize to more than half the population.

[struggle4progress]

123. Membership in the church IS optional. People ARE always free ...

... to join a different church more to their liking. So BB's POV really IS defensible.

I do agree with your view that the Catholic church is wrong about women, in important ways, and I personally hope that women who choose to stay Catholic will continue to fight against church traditions that strike me as anti-female.

But, as I understand it, BB's entirely understandable attitude is that those of us who are not Catholic really have no business describing to Catholics, from our external perspective, how their Catholic beliefs strike us; and we have not been invited by Catholics to tell them why we think they are wrong or what we think they should believe. Come to think of it, most of the Americans I know aren't receptive to that sort of criticism: productive and sensitive dialog evidently requires more than calling people names.

[Crowdance]

136. You're begging the point; we're NOT free from their ideas

Those of us who aren't Catholic DO have business critiquing ideas put forward by the Pope. The Vatican is working very hard as an NGO to mold the work of the UN to suit its ideologies--in league with fundamentalist governments like the Saudis and the US. You've probably noted that recently the US bishops have been pressuring politicians and voters to change US laws supporting women's reproductive rights. Not to mention its attempts to influence US voters to vote for Bush in order to put an end to the possibility of gay marriage.

I expect we'll see the Vatican and its bishops taking the Pope's latest pronouncement and trying to force it into law here and around the world too. Look for a push for laws ending no-fault divorce because it makes it too easy for women to leave their husbands; further reduced funding for women's shelters--same rationale; additional assaults on Title IX; further assaults against women's use of birth control; and an end to UN programs that support the improvement of women's health, education and worklives.


This IS our business. We can't just leave these awful ideas be. We have to criticize them; we have to oppose them. Failing to recognize this faith for the powerful institution it is would be a serious failing.

[struggle4progress]

139. I, for one, don't see why religion has to enter those discussions at all:

we can debate these issues on policy grounds alone, and in the United States we can probably win political fights on the issues based on the electorate's view of its own selfd-interest.

I am inclined to agree that on certain issues the position of the Catholic Church is regressive, although I also consider the Catholic Church's position progressive on other issues important to me. I don't think the Catholic Church is particularly good on women's issues.

But the policy discussions can be carried out without resorting to the anti-Catholic rhetoric that several of our anonymous posters seem to prefer.

[calimary]

163. Damn straight this IS our business, said this born-and-raised Catholic.

It is NOT easy to leave (at least for ME), for several reasons.

Catholic guilt (at least for ME) is awfully strong.

A sense of deep commitment to reform and progress compels me to stick around. I have long felt that outfits like the Catholic Church NEED their dissenters. If everybody says "the hell with you guys" and bails, who's left on the inside to try for, press for, agitate for, and work for change? I could just walk out. But then I'm leaving the problem to stand, as is.

As a LIFELONG CATHOLIC, who spent a solid 12 years in Catholic school, I started feeling feminist leanings when I was maybe ten years old. They weren't called feminist leanings back then. There wasn't a word for them, really. Feminism hadn't really arisen as a national force until much later. But I can SO CLEARLY remember sitting in catechism class and listening to Father Flanagan and wondering to myself "how could he know? He's a man. He's never been married. He's never been a dad. He's never fathered children. He's never had to raise any. He's never had a wife. How can he know? How can he possibly understand or advise? And HOW can he say?"

That said, I have been in an uncomfortable position, recently. All summer, and in fact while school was still in session, I failed to get to Mass regularly, and/or to take the kids with me. I'm just REALLY having a serious problem with it. Ever since the campaign heated up and people started making an issue about how Kerry (and other Catholics) should be denied communion because they believe in a woman's right to choose (for which, in MY OPINION, there really can be no compromise - this is NON-NEGOTIABLE) and a couple of bishops here and there made statements about this, I'm REALLY TORN. I'm actually now finding myself reconsidering whether I should stay a Catholic. That has never happened before.

Meantime, in the past ten years or so, as my kids have grown, I've gone to other church services. My husband is a Presbyterian. Up til recently, his local church (which he LOVED) had been very liberal - until the liberal chief pastor died - and friends there assured me that if I were ever excommunicated, I'd be MOST welcome over there (I used to joke that I have my green card over there whenever I want to use it). So we went to a number of different services of theirs. My husband has become discouraged from there since a new pastor was chosen, who's more conservative. Since then we've been to a Methodist Church, which I liked, but - just as with the Presbyterian church - IT'S JUST NOT HOME.

I'm torn. Truly torn. I don't know where to go or what to do. So I sit, for now, on the sidelines.

I had my children baptized Presbyterian because when I found out I was pregnant with a girl, I realized she couldn't go anywhere in the Catholic Church if, by any chance, she had "The Gift." Turns out she didn't. But I wanted her to be in an arena where she could fully express and pursue and develop "The Gift" if she was blessed accordingly. Same with my son.

And meantime, the molestation issue has deeply disturbed me. Some of the other moms in my parish, equally liberal, share my objections to the politicking from the pulpit, and the yearly lectures from some visiting nun about the blessings of No Choice, and the molestation issue. We have shared our concerns that whenever they pass the plate, the money might really be going toward the settlements of MANY lawsuits from molestation victims, OR, in OUR case here in L.A., to what people call the "Taj Mahony," the big, fancy, chi-chi new cathedral that was built for Roger Mahony downtown, to replace St. Vibiana's - when that money is sorely needed to help the poor.

I'm emotionally and spiritually a mess about this. I feel like, at the moment, I don't have a spiritual home anymore. I don't feel good about what the Catholic heirarchy is currently doing. I am UNWILLING to sacrifice MY right to choose, OR THAT OF MY DAUGHTER, who's now technically of childbearing age. I am UNWILLING to support politicking from the pulpit. I am UNWILLING to accept that the Pope is completely infallible on secular issues. I do NOT take the Bible LITERALLY, even while I love and appreciate its many stories and lessons and metaphors. I object strenuously to the idea that only priests can preside over the sacraments and that women remain disinvited, disincluded, and locked outside. But I look around, elsewhere to other churches, and It. Is. Just. Not. Home.

Being an artist all my life, and an art major in college, and a BIG fan of church art and all its many maestros and creators, I used to joke with the Presbyterians (whose churches are devoid of a lot of visual aids, statues, paintings, sculptures, pictorial stained glass windows and all the other gew-gaws) that I'd be right over as soon as they finished decorating.

So I'm SERIOUSLY torn. But I cannot divorce myself from the "feminist" views that started sprouting within me when I was a kid - who knows why? I cannot bow to this. I cannot just be quiet and accepting and acquiescent. I can't stay, but I can't leave. But neither will I remain silent about it, or be okay with the "second-class citizen status" my Church would foist upon me.

Shit - sorry about the LENGTH! SEE? I really mean it when I say I can't shut up...

[Crowdance]

169. A beautiful piece that contributes greatly to the discussion

I would have to think that those who blithely dismiss women's concerns about the Pope's pronouncements would have to think twice if they'll read your post. You've eloquently described the pain that the church's positions against women have caused in your life, how they've made you feel separated from your diety. I, for one, appreciate your willingness to share your story so openly.

[calimary]

187. Thanks!

"...how they've made you feel separated from your deity..."

YOU describe things quite eloquently, too.

[struggle4progress]

177. Well, I wasn't really Catholic, so I could walk back out ...

... but if you want to stay and fight, more power to you. But if you're looking for an alternative with a familiar liturgical environment, you might try the Episcopal or Lutheran churches.

[October]

141. My point is defensible, as well

The pope's message was for bishops to attack feminism.

He has an international platform. The pope's words are spread throughout the world -- not kept behind closed church doors. Because of this, we have an obligation to respond and defend what we believe.

I've not resorted to name-calling.

I brought up the past, whereby Catholics were wrong and refused for centuries to admit it -- because it conflicted with earlier beliefs/writings. (Galileo)

I was raised Catholic and so speak from experience. I was offended by their ways, and did leave. But I left with pain, feeling unloved for having been born female. And yes, I think it arrogant and easy -- very easy -- for a modern man to say "You are free to leave," when no one forces him to choose between their religion and taking a subservient role.

When the church attacks feminism, we have every right to respond.

[October]

202. But he says

he doesn't agree with everything the church stands for...

Should I tell him to leave?

[sendero]

207. Yes...

.... and if all of the people who disagree with one or more of the RCC's core positions left, the church would be decimated.

Couldn't happen soon enough for me. A neanderthal in a stupid hat is still a neanderthal, and cloaking repugnant ideas in a religious cover does not make them right, moral or sane.

[JohnLocke]

147. What comment were you offended by?

He didn't say he agreed with what the pope said. What he said was that TankLV's post was anti-Catholic, homophobic, and called for the death of a religious leader. What was wrong with that?

Also, he explicitly said he DID not agree with the Church on everything.

[October]

201. He said women are free to leave

Very easy stance for a man to take when it comes to the Catholic religion.

They're not asked to be subservient or leave...it's a hell of a choice. And it's an arrogant stance, leaving no room for discussion. While he feels free to not agree with everything the church stands for -- I'm supposed to like it or leave.

[TankLV]

142. Thanks for the laugh - pointing out the homophobic bigoted and hateful

policies of this idiot church and you're projecting those things on ME?

Do you know the meaning of those terms?

I was raised Catholic, and I have the intellitgence and better sense to see bogus "values" when I see them. Too bad you are blinded by your "faith" in something that is reprehensible.

I never called for the "death" of him - just noticed that he's lived a lot longer than other GOOD people who have been taken from us prematurely.

Anti-Catholic? Perhaps - certainly anti-papist.

But calling me homphobic for calling out this idiot - the current pope, as well as all the church leadership - his/thier blatent anti-gay agenda is priceless. Facts would prove that you and the pope are the homophobic ones!

[Baltimoreboy]

143. All in one post

You implied he and other church leaders were gay and/or crossdressing. You implied there was something bad with that. And you called for his death.

Not exactly the most progressive post I've ever seen.

Now, it's the "idiot church." I guess you don't hate the Catholic Church or anything and those comments certainly aren't bigoted.

Nah...

Of course you called for his death. You just didn't call for anyone other than God to arrange it.

And even you admit you might be anti-Catholic. And, since Catholics follow the pope, being "anti-papist" IS anti-Catholic.

As for the homophobic comments you made. You were the one who mocked his "wearing a dress" and living with other men.

Amd I'm not the slightest bit homophobic. Which I guess is a big reason why I was offended by that part of your comments.

[TankLV]

148. No - you missed the point entirely, as usual & as many others have pointed

out to you.

It's the HYPOCRACY!

This moron acts and dresses and lives exactly like those he HOLDS CONTEMPT FOR!

And OF COURSE I am "anti-papist" or "anti-catholic"! - if they support the bigotry and hatred that that church espouses - they hate me for what I am and wish me dead!

I am anti-anyone who wishes me and my kind ill - and who work to harm me. We will not go quietly into the trains, I will make sure of that!

Calling them on it is an observation.

And all in one post.

You catholic apologists are truly amazing.

[Baltimoreboy]

149. You can't be that clueless

You really can't.

He is wearing a ROBE. I wear a robe around the house. Robes are traditional garb for all sorts of people. It isn't a dress.

Yes, hypocrisy bothers me. Klan-like bigotry on a "progressive" website bothers the hell out of me.

I don't know any good Catholic -- especially priests on up -- who wish anyone dead.

What trains is anyone pushing you onto? Amtrak? Metro?

At least you are honest about your hatred.

[Crowdance]

208. Short arms, BB?

You keep picking the low-hanging fruit in this discussion. You're doing nothing to show an argument in favor of this document or your religion's stances on women. Your statements are coming off as merely combative. Try addressing some of the meatier arguments in this thread. Show your stuff. Show your religion's stuff.

[AngryAmish]

195. -10 sp

[Khephra]

8. Pope Joan says "suck it!"

Yeah, I know she's not "historical", but neither are the Gnostics according to the CHURCH.

[punpirate]

9. Now, I'm confused....

I don't know which is crazier--Bush or the Pope....

Do you ever get the feeling that just about every leader in the world is overdue for their Thorazine?

[UTUSN]

10. Feminists Warn Pope n/t

[Lindacooks]

63. LOL!!!

Feminists warn Pope: mind your own fucking business, you senile old man.

[robcon]

122. The pope is not senile

There is no need to attack the pope with a fallacious smear.

[dflprincess]

12. My grandmother was a very devout Catholic

One of the mainstays of her parish. She died in 1989 not long before her 92nd birthday. A year or so before she died she nearly caused me to faint when she said to me "I think this Pope hates women." Now Gram was not what is called a "cafeteria Catholic" and when she said that, I could only think "He must be even worse than I thought if Grandma's talking this way."

[Eloriel]

26. The woman-hating was the final straw for me for the Church

way back in the very early 1960s, before I even had any words for it (i.e., feminist, misogynist). Grade 7, Catholic school, religion class. I learned (and asked repeated questions to make sure I really heard what I thought I heard) that no matter WHAT the circumstances, any woman who showed up at a Catholic hospital pregnant with a medical emergency would lose HER life in favor of the child's if there were a choice to be made between the two. She didn't have any say in the matter, nor would her husband, her other children if any, her parents -- no one ahd any say in the matter. EVEN IF SHE WEREN'T CATHOLIC herself, it didn't matter. The baby's right to live trumped hers.

Needless to say, that 7th grader found the whole thing more than a little barbaric, not to mention unfair. My attitude was basically, "Whoa, let me outta here, this is no place for females of the species." And I've never looked back.

I have no idea if that's still the policy in the Church, but it doesn't matter one whit to me. AFAIC, it wasn't enough that the Church was directly responsible for killing so many women (and gays, and who knows who else) during The Burning Times, they've been directly responsible for a lot of women's deaths in the centuries since and up until this day, not to mention assorted other misery, poverty, etc. And then there's the matter of women priests....

His time is coming, though. He'll be very surprised when he meets God and learns She wasn't at all amused by his anti-woman "theology."

[dflprincess]

137. I think it is still the policy

though they keep quiet about it. I believe there's some woman being pushed for sainthood because she chose (strange, they use that word) to die taking a pregnancy to term rather than have an abortion - leaving her 3 other children without a mother.

Just as some here check on the Free Republic I've taken to lurking at catholic.com (though this is not an official website of the Catholic church) there are people over there who think Bush isn't prolife enough because he would permit abortions when the mother's life was at stake or in cases of rape or incest (most the people on that website have apparently not heard of Vatican II either - though there are some lonely liberal voices). The only time I've been tempted to come up with an id and post over there was when someone started a thread called "What made you leave the church?". I wanted to respond "This website made me realize, it's time to stop fooling myself, I've left and I'm not coming back."

One more thing about Grandma - in her late 80's she may have been considered a "cafeteria" Catholic by the folks on that website. - When my cousin divorced her abusive husband, Gram helped finance it and announced she had decided the Church was not "realistic" about divorce.

[Eloriel]

151. Cafeteria Catholic is just another name for

people who can think for themselves.

One of the other major issues for me, even as a child, about the Catholic church was the very fact that it was obvious they DIDN'T want me thinking for myself. It was very clear to me by the 3rd grade that some of their laws were "man-made" (as opposed to "God-made," let's call it -- like Thou Shalt Not Kill and others). And I never could wrap my mind around the papal infallibility thing, even as a child. No meat on Friday (since changed, of course)? Missing Mass is a mortal sin? Never, ever visiting another kind of church for any reason? All ridiculous, unquestioning and therefore vulnerable to even exploitation.

And I agree: your Grandma sounds top notch!

[alarimer]

157. I never heard that myself

but I grew up in the 70s and 80s when they might have downplayed that just a bit. I left the church because I despise being told what to think. I have a brain, I can form ideas and beliefs on my own. I can read the Bible if I want to (reading the Bible is not encouraged in the Catholic Church- they want the message to come from priests and so forth).
I have no idea why anyone would stay in an organization that 1) treats them like second-class citizens- they are not allowed to control their own bodies- that is just sick) and 2) does not allow for any questioning so that you either swallow all of it or not at all. I got in trouble a LOT for this last thing by asking questions like "why does God allow war?"

Also I have heard stories )not sure if they are true or not) in which women abused by their husbands go to thier priests for help and he tells them to stay with the assholen even though he might kill her. That is so sick if true.

[susanna]

33. I really, really like what your Gram stood for...

She was awesome! Good for her for seeing through it all. :-)

[meg]

13. As a FORMER Catholic and a current feminist, I agree

The Pope can shove it!

[madrchsod]

14. again the church fails humanity

..basing a religious tenants on perversions of a 5000 year old tribal laws has no basis in the year 2004. to not evolve a religion dooms it to obscurity....

[TlalocW]

15. As much as I actually enjoy

Going to a Catholic church every now and then, etc. I will have absolutely no respect for the Pope, the clergy, or the church itself until it actually takes as hard a line against the clergy fucking altar boys as they do other issues. As long as they switch the priests around to hide their crimes as well as try to hide their assets when faced with lawsuits, they can piss off for all I care.

And that goes for any other church as well that lets crap like this happen and then tries to deal with it "in house" instead of turning the slimeballs over to the cops.

TlalocW

[Mikimouse]

16. and Lilith says...Butt out JP!

Cheez, JP, read some social theory why don't you. You're beginning to sound like an obsolete Parsonian functionalist. Ummm, just so you, old boy, Sex Role Theory is no longer the order of the day, and sex and gender are two entirely different things. One is based on primary sex characteristics and chromosomes, while the other is socially constructed. Moreover, there are 5 sexes, not two, get over it!

[demoman123]

17. Ratzinger? I knew it. He is the power behind the papal throne.

Every reactionary policy in the last two decades is due to him.

Click here: http://www.ratzingerfanclub.com/

[mom cat]

21. Seems like the right wing types are failing in their attempts to suppress

people everywhere. Their knee jerk attempts at repression of the human spirit are failing in the church, politics.etc. I like us uppity people.:dem:

[DieboldMustDie]

27. For the first time ever...

I genuinely can't tell if a web site is on the level or a parody. :crazy:

[demoman123]

39. This gives it away:

"As Grand Inquisitor for Mother Rome..."

There is no such title, though the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which Ratzinger controls, is the descendent of the Inquisition.

[DieboldMustDie]

48. Yea, I noticed that...

but everything else they have to say, along with the other sites they link to, actually seem supportive of the guy. :shrug:

[playahata1]

43. Michelangelo Signorile has written about how he and members

of the gay activist group ACT-UP shouted down Ratzinger during a speech at St. Patrick's Cathedral in the late 1980s. Ratzinger is also a known homophobe.

[demoman123]

50. Being a homophobe in the Catholic clergy is like...

being an anti-semite at a B'nai B'rith meeting. :)

[Snoggera]

18. The pope is retarded

breaking news.

[struggle4progress]

126. No. He's a very intelligent man.

I don't agree with him about everything, but he's bright, and he's stood up for his beliefs for a long time.

[bloom]

19. And everything he says goes into the newspapers...n/t

[Fleshdancer]

22. Focus more on your pedophile priests and less on my need for equality

eom

[stepnw1f]

23. And If The Pope Had Any Balls

he would come out of the closet.

[Baltimoreboy]

67. Any evidence to support that bigoted claim?

Just asking...

[stepnw1f]

105. bigotted hmmmmm...

don't think soooo

[Baltimoreboy]

108. Claiming someone is gay just because you don't like what they beleve

Yep, bigoted.

[Chicago Democrat]

194. The Polish Pope is famously anti-gay... Methinks he dost protest

too much. He was an actor for a long time. I live in the #2 Polish city in the world, Chicago, IL. Many Polish men are extremely hostile to gay men... They come here with the most outdated conservative Catholic ideas and I am SICK OF THEM! I do not feel safe around them. They are extremely homophobic and potential gay bashers. Its cultural... Its religious....Its very fucked up...

[koopie57]

24. I would like to hear what the Pope thinks

if he were to spend time in the real world and see the numbers of women working two jobs trying to hold their family together cuz the husband is in jail, drunk, drugs, having an affair. And this is not a slam against men at all, just there are many women who are doing superhuman jobs taking care of their families, getting them through college, etc. and the Pope is singling out women. I think that the Pope has watched one too many Leave it to Beaver reruns.

And how dare he imply that women are only good for having/raising kids. I don't think that God is intimidated by an intelligent woman. And I think that there are some moms who are better at parenting if they work. I stayed home for 17 years with my kids and believe me, no one thanks you or knows how difficult it is and you are expected to volunteer for any and everything cuz you are not working. I felt a muted disrespect and heard "do you work or just stay at home". I tore an insurance salesman's rearend off once when he called me, woke my daughter from her nap and made that crack...a**hole.

[struggle4progress]

127. Did you read the Ratzinger letter or ...

... are you just assuming you know what it says?

I don't completely agree with it, but I think your portrait of it is inaccurate.

[Technowitch]

25. And they wonder why...

...the Roman Catholic Church is losing parishoners in droves.

There are several reasons why I'm now a practicing Wiccan, after having been raised Roman Catholic, and this is one of them.

Well, that, and getting kicked out of Sunday School for asking impertinent questions. The nuns didn't like it when I pointed out the inconsistencies in the Bible. ;)

[Eloriel]

31. I was the class heretic too

Heheh.

Wicca is a great alternative for those raised Catholic who "move on" from that. I'm not myself Wiccan, but I have studied it and have great respect for the Old Religion. In fact, so much so that I got pissed off with the Church all over again when I realized where so many of their ritual practices came from, and what they REALLY meant (candles, vestments, incense, etc. -- not to mention their major "Holy Days" like Christmas and Easter) and that they didn't have the intellectual honesty to tell US what they're all about. Hell, makes me mad all over again just thinking about it.

Welcome to DU!

[kikiek]

83. Me too. I'm not Wican either, but I now understand why the Christians

fear women so much. Had to deal with that right away so made them all whores and dirty. That is something to get angry about.

[dflprincess]

175. And don't forget veneration of the Virgin Mary

This came up in an Anthropology class I took in college. There are ethnic groups of Catholics who tend to be more apt to pray to the Virgin. The Irish being one of these groups(being Irish I sat up and paid more attention at this point in class and I was always more inclinded to say a Hail Mary rather than an Our Father). It is thought that one way St. Patrick sold Christianity to the Irish was to - at the very least - imply that Mary was actually their Goddess, therefore, Jesus was the son of the Goddess.

[October]

80. Me three

Though I didn't dare question their authority till I was much older. (Too beaten down as a youngster, though deeply angry and resentful.) I applaud your bravery and strength.

I recall the way the boys in the church/school acted so superior to the girls -- and how it spilled over into society. Wife beatings and such should come as no surprise to these fools.

Today, I am happily married for nearly 20 lovely years to an agnostic, former Protestant, man. And we have 2 beautiful children.

[BigBrother]

158. Me Four

I started questioning certain beliefs around 6th grade, then I became an atheist in 8th. I was to chicken to question in Sunday school, but after awhile I just refused to go. I just couldn't stand the hypocrisy any more, and that thinking for yourself really wasn't an option.

[jukes]

29. for cries ache

when will that tedious old eunuch die?





7 leagues from rome...

[robcon]

124. "tedious old eunich" is an unfounded smear

You are a bigot.

[smirkymonkey]

162. I think he's already dead...

you know, a "Weekend at Bernie's" type of situation.

[WillyT]

30. Our Future First Lady Could Tell The Pope To 'Shove It' In 5 Languages !!!

And that would be just fine with me!!!

COULD WE PLEASE GET THE :fuckyou: SMILY BACK, PRETTY PLEASE???

:bounce::bounce::nuke: oops !!!

[IndianaGreen]

64. Teresa Heinz telling the Pope to "Shove It!" in 5 languages

French: Poussez-le !

Italian: Spingalo!

Spanish: ¡Empújelo!

Portuguese: Shove o!

German: Schieben Sie es! (Teresa's fifth language is really English, but "Shove it!" sounds more authoritative in German).

[struggle4progress]

125. That seems unlikely. She's Catholic. eom

[RazzoDazzo]

159. No. NBC said she actually said, "shove off!" Right. Thats about as likely

as Dick saying, "forgive me," to Sen. Leahy on the senate floor! LOL :toast:

[Swamp Rat]

181. HA! I'd LOVE to see this!

By the way, the Babel Fish translation isn't correct. In Português, shove it=empurre-o!

[squidbro]

32. Perhaps the Pope could use some lessons in science

A message to the Pope. Women have two X chromosomes and men have one X along with a Y. Men and Women's genes are nearly identical. The cells are the same and our biochemistry is the same.

Yes, men make more testosterone, but women make some too. Women make more estrogen, but men make some too. Our cells respond a little different to the influences of the different sex hormones, but the cells are the same.

Men can become women under the influence of estrogen and women can become men under the influence of testosterone.

Human beings are fundamentally the same regardless of certain characteristics that develop under the influence of hormones.

If the Pope needs further lessons, I'd be happy show him some babies with ambiguous genitalia and let him decide on whether the child is a girl or boy.

No wonder the Catholic church tried to silence Galileo. Science and understanding nature has no meaning to them.

So if the Pope says that gravity no longer exists, it must be so since he is the voice of God. Religious dogma ALWAYS trounces science in their view.

I wonder what the Pope would say if hypothetically a woman with androgen insensitivity (women with androgen insensitivity have the genes of a male, one X chromosome and one Y; they develop as females as their cells do not react to testosterone) decided to become a nun. Would that person be a male or a female? Does it matter? Or does the fact that that person is a human being matter more?

[MichiganVote]

35. Nothing matters to these birds. They are encased in their own corruption

This is all Bush speak who is going to push for the woman's vote by getting a rise out of the feminists (who are not deemed real women by Bushites). Watch it die a quick death. Relax, the days of a cleric ruling us are over. AND they will stay that way George Bush and Co.
so Don't Poke the Bear.

[ronabop]

54. Another lesson in science.

There are people born with XXY, XYY, and YY. (Though YY rarely make it to birth)

The concept of two groups is not only totally wrong, it is unsupported by science.

[doctorbombeigh]

34. High conviction rate/low recruitment - they need preggos. n/t

[indie_voter]

36. Perhaps the church will apologize as they did to Galileo

Centuries later. If they still exist.

[Zomby Woof]

37. medieval relic

His rotting corpse has taken up oxygen too long.

Fuck monotheism.

[Jade Fox]

38. I didn't realize biology was blurable. Dang, Feminists are powerful!

[napi21]

42. Is it possible we are min-interpreting this snippit?

When I first read this, and before I read all the responses, I thought this was his statement against gays. I do know homosexuality is a big no no in the Catholic Church. I guess I need to read the whole thing when it's released, to see just what he means by feminist.

[struggle4progress]

40. Document seems not to have appeared yet at Vatican website ...

... but this info may help locate it:

New Vatican document to confront feminism

Tomorrow the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith will publish a document that attempts to address what the Congregation sees as confusions generated by feminism and so-called "gender" ideology.

The document, published with the approval of Pope John Paul II, is entitled Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on the Collaboration of Men and Women in the Church and in the World.
<snip>

http://www.cathnews.com/news/407/171.php


In the early years of the 21st century, progressives will evidently be forced to spend time and treasure to defeat the oppressive views of religious extremists around the world.

[struggle4progress]

114. Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on the Collaboration of ...

... and Women in the Church and in the World

<snip>
2. Recent years have seen new approaches to women's issues. A first tendency is to emphasize strongly conditions of subordination in order to give rise to antagonism: women, in order to be themselves, must make themselves the adversaries of men. Faced with the abuse of power, the answer for women is to seek power. This process leads to opposition between men and women, in which the identity and role of one are emphasized to the disadvantage of the other, leading to harmful confusion regarding the human person, which has its most immediate and lethal effects in the structure of the family.

A second tendency emerges in the wake of the first. In order to avoid the domination of one sex or the other, their differences tend to be denied, viewed as mere effects of historical and cultural conditioning. In this perspective, physical difference, termed sex, is minimized, while the purely cultural element, termed gender, is emphasized to the maximum and held to be primary. The obscuring of the difference or duality of the sexes has enormous consequences on a variety of levels. This theory of the human person, intended to promote prospects for equality of women through liberation from biological determinism, has in reality inspired ideologies which, for example, call into question the family, in its natural two-parent structure of mother and father, and make homosexuality and heterosexuality virtually equivalent, in a new model of polymorphous sexuality.

3. While the immediate roots of this second tendency are found in the context of reflection on women's roles, its deeper motivation must be sought in the human attempt to be freed from one's biological conditioning. According to this perspective, human nature in itself does not possess characteristics in an absolute manner: all persons can and ought to constitute themselves as they like, since they are free from every predetermination linked to their essential constitution.

This perspective has many consequences. Above all it strengthens the idea that the liberation of women entails criticism of Sacred Scripture, which would be seen as handing on a patriarchal conception of God nourished by an essentially male-dominated culture. Second, this tendency would consider as lacking in importance and relevance the fact that the Son of God assumed human nature in its male form.
<snip>

http://www.catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=1201


Much of the rest is more oriented to scriptural discussion. I'm a bystander: I consider the Catholic church to be genuinely concerned with the problem of protecting human dignity but don't always agree with the Catholics. Ratzinger is, of course, incredibly conservative, which I believe introduces anti-feminist distortions into his discussion: with the concern that women not be regarded as breeders, he agrees -- but by pointing out that virginity is an option for everyone, an approach many do not find very helpful in a practical sense.

[SharonAnn]

178. Ratzinger is Opus Dei, he's "beyond conservative"

The Opus Dei sect in Catholicism is very, very patriarchal, hierarchical, and misogynistic.

THEY DON"T LIKE WOMEN!

They especially don't like "uppity" women.

Teresa Heinz Kerry is probably their worst nightmare. A Catholic woman who's a great wife, mother, and step-mother and speaks her mind. Also, she doesn't take s**t from these people.

[playahata1]

41. The Pope can kiss my feminist ass

and go straight to (his) hell. I like his nerve....

[Merlin]

44. Spoken like a true ideological zealot, circa maybe the 7th century.

What is wrong with this idiot? Does he really think he is so indispensable that he has to remain on duty in fear of the possibility that a more enlightened successor might lead the church into a new day? That ain't gonna happen anyhow. What a sad case.

[napi21]

45. Check my post a few above yours. Some of you are

min-interpreting this I think. Here's another snipit from that same link that started this thread.

(snip)
The statement of doctrine on gender issues is the first serious attempt by the Vatican to come to grips with a world of working women. But it is just as clearly intended to prevent any erosion of the church's resolute opposition to gay mar riage, the incorporation of women into the priesthood, and trends in gender studies which the Pope has damned as "misleading conceptions of sexuality".


I had a strong feeling this was prompted by the Catholic Church's stromg opposition to homosexuality.

[Merlin]

53. Maybe trying to kill two birds with the same stone. But make no mistake

...the "church" -- as "infallibly" interpreted by that royal relic, JP2 -- believes deeply in the Paulist doctrine that women are and must remain subservient to men; that their sole role in life is to bear and raise children; that they can never rise to equal status with men.

What is all of this nonsense based on? Certainly it's not the words of Jesus. There is absolutely nothing in the chronicles of Jesus' sayings that taught any such thing about women.

Rather it comes from Paul, a man who never met Jesus, who invented Christianity out of the tales of some of the people he--as a bounty-hunter of Christians for the Romans--heard from his captives. He larded it with some of the Mithraic mythology predominant in his home town of Tarsus (like eating the body and drinking the blood of the worshipped being), and went on the road as a promoter supreme for over 20 years.

No matter that Paul's views were completely rejected by Peter and James, Jesus' brother, who actually knew Jesus. Paul's views won out when the votes came in at the Council of Nicea, three centuries later, and the church never looked back.

Paul's views on the status of women come straight from the Old Testament. He was a true believer.

[Mountainman]

46. You no playa da game, a you no maka da rules.

[DrWeird]

47. Hey, pope, suck it dry!

Thank you, bitch.

[ljm2002]

49. Feminist warns pope

This feminist calls on all thinking people to attack papist ideologies which assert that the pope is the infallible interpreter of God's own morality.

This belief erodes humanity's spiritual vocation, and attempts to create a wall between people and their own spiritual natures.

Furthermore, by turning a blind eye to the sexual depredations of his own priesthood, this pope has given up any claim to any moral authority whatsoever.

So: Cheney off, Your Unholy Popeness.

[Kool Kitty]

51. I want to thank the Pope for giving me

yet another reason not to become catholic. Worry about the child molesters in the clergy, and then you can talk about a woman's place in the world, 'kay, Pontiff?

[WindRavenX]

52. Between Humanae Vitae and this...

...I have almost no respect for the Catholic Church. Which is a shame, because the ideals of Catholicism are quite appealing to me.
This feminist believes that the core of Feminism is not to equate men and women as "the same", but to give men and women the same BASIC RIGHTS as human beings. Of course men and women are different, but in the eyes of the law, we shouldn't be (which is why we need an ERA).
Women are still second class citizens in this world, and if the Pope was in control of the world, he'd have it stay that way

[mrsadm]

55. So, does the pope believe ... ?

that women are inferior how? Mentally? Spiritually? Economically? Physically? All of the above?

I had a summer job while in college that changed my life. I was splicing microfilm records in the basement of an insurance company building. The department consisted entirely of women. The pay was very low. The majority of the women were middle aged and many of them had to work because their husbands had dumped them for other younger women.

I have never forgotten this lesson. I have worked as a professional all my life. I have NEVER taken time off to stay at home. I never wanted to be in a position to struggle to just afford to live.

Women deserve just as much as men to be able to make a living and feed themselves and their dependents. The fact that the pope (small "p" intended) doesn't understand this means he is a cruel dictator.

mrsadm
...former Catholic

[no_hypocrisy]

56. Ask the Pope if I can regain my status of equality after menopause and

the issue of my natural role to reproduce becomes moot.

[saigon68]

57. the pope's message is lost here at DU

And lost on most of the people who have to deal with issues from 1900 onward.

What this means that as a man of the feudal 16th and 17th century, he should stay put in his summer home and do cross-word puzzles.

I wonder if he is still debating the discoveries of Tycho Brahe


http://es.rice.edu/ES/humsoc/Galileo/People/tycho_brahe.html


Tycho Brahe (1546-1601)

[struggle4progress]

134. The Church didn't object to scientific observation ...

... but it was touchy about exactly how unorthodox theories were presented. I don't think Brahe's observational work would have caused any problem. Brahe's theory of the solar system was actually a brilliant compromise, and if the Copernican theory had been exactly right, Brahe's theory would have produced completely identical predictions. I don't think Brahe got into trouble over this -- but if he did, I certainly like to know.

By now, the Catholic Church has, of course, officially acknowledged that Galileo was correct. Although the official statement was amusingly recent, the Church long ago ceased to question Galileo's work, and it is absolutely unfair to suggest that Catholics are hostile to or ignorant of modern science.

[Darth_Kitten]

58. I don't think any feminist believes men and women are the same........

duh..... :eyes:

[MaineDem]

59. This really pisses me off

I spent 13 years in Catholic schools. You can imagine that I grew up believing the Pope was infallible in matters of faith and morals.

But I lost that belief a long time ago.

The Catholic Church needs more women in authority. It's the original Old Boys Network and women will be second class human beings until that hierarchy changes.

My mother doesn't understand why I don't go to Mass every Sunday and believe like I did as a child. Her faith is important to her and I don't begrudge her that. I think I still believe in the basics of faith but certainly not in the institution of the Vatican.

Edited for the typos. The nuns taught me how to spell but not how to type.

[concord]

71. There are plenty of women

in the church ... just not one of them ordained.

I've left the church as well. Took my son and fled before he became another victim, but that was just the last straw.

In the months leading up to my decision to leave, I was struck by the fact that ALL of the people on the alter were female (servers, lectors, lay-ministers), except for the priest. MOST of the people in the congregation were women and children. I could see it two ways: that the church was already a female entity (a comforting perception, a form of denial) or that the church was attracting females who accepted their subservient status and were enabling that paradigm. In the end, I believe it's the second view which is more appropriate and was another reason why I left. I reject paulist doctrine.

[SharonAnn]

179. Yes, I left because I felt that by staying, even on my terms, I was

helping to perpetuate their misogynistic, patriarchal world.

It's called "enabling" in the substance abuse world.

[BonjourUSA]

84. If I discuss this bullshit with my "32th cutlet" I am going to spend...

.... a very bad night !!

Even if we are agnostic the pope always makes her nervous.... Can someone tell me why ? ;-)

[Mari333]

60. Oh they are freaking out over the Da Vinci code

pffft. Ignore them, and continue learning.
I suggest
Women's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets by Barbara Walker
Women's Encyclopedia of Symbols and Sacred Objects by Barbara Walker

[Chovexani]

167. May I add to that list

When God Was a Woman by Merlin Stone

The Pope can shove it.

[Darranar]

62. Utterly disgusting. n/t

[Algorem]

68. Geez,you'd think the feminists were horning in on the altar boy action.

[msanthrope]

113. Best post of the thread!!!! n/t

[Greedy Oil Puritan]

75. My advice to the Pope...

Follow Dick Cheney's advice to Patrick Leahy and you might loosen up a bit.

[joycep]

78. Oh, Genesis. Man I am so impressed!

This 66 year old feminist will change her ways immediately. Like hell i will.

[Algorem]

81. Og say woman sweep dinosaur poop out of cave.

[struggle4progress]

135. LOL but the statement doesn't adopt that sort of Neanderthal stance. eom

[KansDem]

85. Hey, Pope! How 'bout warning us parents...

...that some of your priests are pedophiles!

[leesa]

88. Hey, dumb ass...it's not the first century...there are too many people

on the planet. Even if, for some unknown reason, women wanted to be baby machines, we can't afford to bring any more people into this world.

[emad]

91. Link to BBC story covering this:

Vatican attacks radical feminism



The Vatican has published a document designed to address "distortions" generated by radical feminism.

The document, approved by the Pope, says feminism has "inspired ideologies" that view men and women as enemies, and question family and marriage.

But the Pope has also called for more respect for working women, and taken a first step towards breaking the male hold on the Vatican bureaucracy.

Feminists have condemned the document as a step backwards.

FROM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3940719.stm


JP2 sick as a pig about keeping all those paedophilia balls up in the air as his goddawful church sinks into bankruptcy.

HIs personal secretary the newly elevated Archbishop Stanislaw Dziwisz is a paedophile wanted since 1963 in the UK for sex crimes against 3, 4 and 5 year olds in childrens' homes run by the Polish terrorists the Marian Fathers in Henley on THames. They in turn linked with UK's Hell Fire Club that recruited child sex victims on a global scale.

No wonder the Vatican is spewing and writhing and trying to blame women.

[gauguin57]

92. Eff the Pope and the Popemobile he rode in on!

THIS feminist says Eff his Effing Eminence.

Eff him.

Worthless effing guy in a dress.

I will now go to confession, say my Act of Contrition (which, when I was still a Catholic, I learned to say in less than 15 seconds!) and all my sins will magically be forgiven.

Then I can go out and say eff the Pope a lot more!

[Crowdance]

93. Religious Fundamentalism relies on women's oppression

Religious fundamentalists, like the Pope, must enforce the repression of women in order to maintain their power structures. It's too hard to keep the entire population in control on their own; they need to engage their men in controlling the female half of the population in order to pull it off. In management, we call that delegation. The truly odd part of this is that women willingly engage in their own repression, and will advocate the repression of other women--even those not of their faith.

The Pope's words here are nothing other than attempt to shore up this power structure. They only have power if we permit them to. Our job is to ensure they can't imbue the words with any significance. John Kerry vowed on Thursday night to work toward fulfilling the goal of women's equality. Let's ignore the Pope and listen to Kerry.

[concord]

95. Excellent post Crowdance

The fact that Teresa Heinz is Kerry's wife says a lot about Kerry's view on women. Her speech managed to change my support for him from being lukewarm ABB to active promotion of his candidacy.

[gauguin57]

97. Last night at the Harrisburg, PA, rally,

Teresa spoke again of allowing women's voices everywhere to be heard. Which got a great response from the huge crowd.

And Kerry was just beaming at her while she was talking -- and saying stuff like "isn't she great?"

[Gin]

98. fu*k the pope and the neanderthal hore he rode in on....he's just a man

stuck in the past..... to still think that way in the 21st century!

Time to go old man!

[SuffragetteSal]

96. The Pope and his people

would do better to speak out against the senseless killing of men, women and children in this time of war and violence. He would then be seen as a humanitarian and true believer of Christ's teachings if he did so.

[The Animator]

100. Growing up Catholic...

... has molded me into the proud Atheist I am today.

I began to question my faith at the end of high school.

Then I took a World History course in college and lost the faith entirely.

Years later I read the Da Vinci Code... and the bridge leading me back to Catholic Church is reduced to smoke and cinder.



"The Vatican is concerned that this belief is eroding what it regards as women's maternal vocation."

Maternal Vocation = A womans place is in the kithcen, while barefoot and pregnant.

Hey bitch! Git in da back and make me a damn sammich!

[MaineDem]

104. The last time I went to Mass...

the sermon was about women being mothers. The priest basically said that women who don't have children are worthless. I came "this close" to standing up and walking out. That man has no idea at all why some people decide not to have children or why some people are forced by biology to not ever have children. I was so angry and I haven't been back since.

A couple I know here in town has a son who was molested by a Jesuit years ago. THey have spent much time fighting the church just to admit that this happened even though the court has already decided it. Having grown up surrounded by nuns and priests (mostly Jesuits) I can't comprehend following a religion lead by men who condone this sort of thing. I can't justify it all.

And then that one priest's sermon put me over the edge!

[BonjourUSA]

101. A different subject but a same religious blinding...

One of our friends decided to begin her doc career in Africa. She worked very hard to explain the condoms necessity for struggle against the AIDS. This hard job has been destroyed for very many African people in some minutes, I can say in some seconds, by the pope's Mexico speech in which he said the abstinence is the only weapon against AIDS. She spent one year in Africa after this bullshit but she was both furious and weary.

But today, the US give subsidies only to the humanitarian organisations with the same idea than the pope !

[oldcoot]

103. Another reason to fire Bush

It really does piss me off that we are allowing religion to determine public policy. I do not blame your friend being frustrated but tell her to hang in there. Hopefully, we will have a new administration by this time next year.

[bitchkitty]

102. The pope can kiss my Catholic ass! n/t

[Skittles]

110. the pope can stick it up his ass

I'm sick of these misogynistic assholes.

[Mara Steele]

111. The idiot... He should go FUCK himself

The pope can GO FUCK himself with his biological gender...

The man is a world class moran and a danger to civilization.

[Cheneys_former_heart]

112. So are American Catholics ready to throw away birthcontrol?

Because "The Pill" and other methods of birthcontrol are prohibited by the Catholic Church. I suspect most American Catholic women are not ready to be forced to be baby makers.

[revree]

115. STUPID OLD ASSHOLE

I hate the Pope. He is a crusty old fool who wouldn't know Jesus if Jesus pissed on his robe.

[The_Casual_Observer]

116. The Pope has long ago missed his opportunity

of greatness following the fall of the Soviet Union. Instead of reason, understanding and interpretation he has relied on dogma brought back from the dark ages. Considering how feeble he has become, I wouldn't be surprised if these things aren't being done in his name by others.

[IndianaGreen]

117. The Pope's personal secretary is a member of Opus Dei

Considering how feeble he has become, I wouldn't be surprised if these things aren't being done in his name by others.

The recently canonized founder of Opus Dei was a well-known misogynist and pro-Nazi:

The Evolution of Opus Dei
by Alberto Moncada

This article was originally published in Spanish as "La Evolucion del Opus Dei en Espana" (Ponencia al VI Congreso Español de Sociología, A Coruña, 1999) and is available on the opus libros website.

Opus Dei is a Catholic institution comprised of both priests and laymen, very close to the Pope, who praises its doctrinal integrity and committment to his policies. Juan Paul II even appointed one of its members, Rafael Navarro Valls, as Vatican spokesman.

Early Opus Dei flourished in the atmosphere of religious fervor within the winning side of the Spanish Civil War. Its founder, Josemaría Escrivá de Balaguer, was a strong supporter of the "Crusade" as the Spanish bishops labeled the war. He wrote his main book -- Camino (The Way) -- during the war, in Burgos, close to the Franco headquarters, where he made well-connected friends. Camino sums up Escriva´s "national catholicism", the Trento doctrine which canonized the union between Church and State

<snip>

Escrivá shared the misogyny frequent in Catholic theology and discipline and created a structure in which the primary activity of women was to care for houses and centers of the Work. Indeed one type of female members, who come from modest homes, were termed "servants" in the first edition of the Constitution. The result of this setup is that the numeraries are the last remaining males in Western countries, especially in Spain, who enjoy the prerogatives of traditional gentlemen, who do not get involved in household matters because that is the business of the women of the family or, in the present case, of his sisters in the apostolate. Still, a certain percentage of Opus Dei women have responded to the new educational imperative and run schools for girls. In any case, few of them exercise any secular profession independently or have university studies, something obligatory for male numeraries. Escrivá mandated stricter observances for women numeraries. Thus, among other things, women sleep on planks and used to have to ask permission to drink water between meals, although the latter rule was recently abolished. Needless to say, women count for little in internal government and limit themselves to applying the resolutions taken by male authorities.

http://www.odan.org/tw_evolution_of_opus_dei.htm

[JerseygirlCT]

132. I agree -- that's entirely possible. nt

[pschoeb]

119. Where's Anita Garibaldi when you need her?

nt

[mark wayne]

128. Down through the ages.............

Hasn't history taught us anything about what happens when "the church" meddles into politics of nations?

[roguevalley]

129. Guys in dresses telling women how to live their lives. PHEH!

[Baltimoreboy]

130. More enlightened commentary

I was just reading a book about the 1920s. The Klan used to say things just like that.

[smirkymonkey]

160. I'd like to go burn a cross on the front lawn of the Vatican.

(metaphorically speaking, I've been there and I know they don't have a "front lawn")

I am getting pretty sick of old, white men dictating to the rest of us how we should live our lives to conform to their f**ing archaic, hate-filled world view.

He's an anachronism. Enough of this Papist claptrap!

[Baltimoreboy]

170. To hundreds of millions of Catholics

He is their leader, NOT an anachonism.

And go ahead and try burning a cross at the Vatican. I hear the Swiss guards can kick some ass. Anyone who talks about burning crosses deserves to be on the receiving end.

[Swamp Rat]

173. Don't worry. Catholicism is dying and will be dead by the end of this

century. There are NOT 100s of millions of Catholics that will stand up for their religion if they have to chose between a civil society or the Dark Ages. We may be headed for another religious showdown like the Hundred Years War, but if they continue on a confrontational path, the Papists will be wiped out entirely. What these Papists want is nothing short of slavery but their 'base' is shrinking. They are severely outnumbered and losing faster and faster as people become more educated. As they slip, they will have to modify their canon, which will spell the end of them. They are in a 'catch 22'. They must change the canon to adapt yet the system does not allow for changes or changes to occur at the same rate humanity evolves.

[Baltimoreboy]

176. Shrinking some places, growing others

Despite your apocolyptic claims, the Catholic Church has outlived everything else for 2,000 years. No nation, government or empire can make the same claim.

[Swamp Rat]

180. Man, where did you go to school???

The Catholic Church has NOT been around for 2,000 years. Christianity DEVELOPED over the course of 2,000 years. Sheesh!

Zeus willing, it will devolve a lot faster.

[Baltimoreboy]

183. Wrongo

You are the rock on which I will build my church.

Peter was the first pope. Catholic Church traces its life back to him.

[impe]

185. Actually

The text is "on this rock, I will build my church and the gates of Hell won't prevail against it." The rock equals Faith, because earlier verses were about Peter's FAITH.

News Flash, Peter never went to Rome.

Is a Servant greater than his Master? The Popedom would certainly say so.

[Swamp Rat]

198. Don't bother with this guy anymore

[Baltimoreboy]

204. Let me know when you can separate a person's faith

From that person.

Church was built on Peter and that was the way we were taught as well.

Going to Rome is not required when Jesus names you pope. Rome came later.

[Swamp Rat]

197. You are so funny! Now take your Christian proselytizing to another board.

Pffft!

[Baltimoreboy]

205. Not proslelytizing, just complaining about hate speech

That is common in this and other Catholic threads.

[Swamp Rat]

211. Yes, you are proselytizing your religion on this very thread.

Why don't you start a "Catholics for Kerry" thread? I promise I won't proselytize my religion on your thread. I promise I won't use hate speech on your thread. If I do post on your thread, I promise I will be civil and remain on topic. By the way, this is proselytizing:

"You are the rock on which I will build my church. Peter was the first pope. Catholic Church traces its life back to him."

Since you said it, now I can reject it. None of this is true. It's all fiction made up by folks trying to create a (religious) construct/system to control humans. You cannot prove me wrong... just as I cannot prove you wrong. I BELIEVE that your belief is nothing but fiction, that is constantly shoved in my face wherever I go.

I don't want to be your enemy Baltimoreboy. I just don't want religious proselytizing on a political board. This is why I recommended that DU start another forum for religion only. I wish you good luck in starting the "Catholics for Kerry" thread, because I think it is a good idea.

[JerseygirlCT]

131. This is why I left the church I was raised in to become an Episcopalian -m

these are just horrible, women-hating old men... Ugh.

[seemslikeadream]

133. John Paul II Blames Radical Feminists for Lack of Brothels

Vatican City, Saturday (Rioters) - As the temperature soared in Italy yesterday the Pope launched his annual mid-summer tirade against women after a delegation from the Curia bemoaning the lack of prostitutes on the streets of Rome called on His Wholesomeness to do something for the legions of frustrated Italian males who cannot get it at home or on in the country's red light districts.

"I blame strong, opinionated women who are bankrupting the Holy Mother Church worldwide with their baseless accusations of paedophile cover ups going back fifty years and more.

"These politically-motivated lesbians are trying to destroy the very foundations of our society by withholding marital relations from their husbands, who then have to trawl the streets looking for suitable alternatives to intercourse with their wives.

"And by infiltrating the brothels of Europe, the very bastion of Catholic family life is being shamefully destroyed now that hookers and call girls no longer want to service the customers who traditionally succour their existence with their regular patronage.

"Just you wait until Peter Mandelson becomes UK Commissioner at the EU! That'll teach them!"
more
http://www.thespoof.com/news/spoof.cfm?headline=s3i6081

:P

[emad]

154. Ain't no spoof, that.....

JP2 off his trolley...

[Triana]

138. From a Feminist to the Pope...

**** SHOVE IT! *****

[suegeo]

140. After some reflection upon reading the news stories...

Could the opening of this news story be a tad bit whorish?

The first few paragraphs say the pope/church/bishops are gonna attack feminism, then later in the article it says the church wants to create conditions that make it easier for women (and men) to take care of their families AND work in the for-pay labor market. Now, wtf-do-I-know, but that sound like a GOOD thing to me.

Also, in this article or another linked in one of the posts here, it says the pope doesn't want men and women to be so confrontational. Rather he calls for more collaboration between men and women. The horror! The horror!

I'll reserve final judgement until I can read what the pope's report says. But if it's calling for making parenting easier for working men and women, and it's calling for people to try and get along, then I'll vote "sounds good to me."

(BTW, there was a report by some humanitarian organization a while back, stating that yes indeedy women do perform most of the world's work, it's just that women seldom get recognized for their work, nor do they get paid for it.)

[Tsiyu]

153. You don't help families

if you have no earthly idea how to be in one. Unmarried, "Celibate" (hahahahah) males are in absolutely no position to tell anyone how to be human, any more than they are able to give birth.

Wisdom is not the same thing as power. And there is only going to be real change when there is confrontation. Women didn't win the vote sitting down playing nice so you could feel better.....
This is pure, unadulterated crap....

[VelmaD]

144. Same old crap...

blaming feminists for causing the antagonism between men and women by pointing out the inequalities rather than addressing those inequalities in teh first damn place. Couldn't possibly be men's fault for creating the unequal system. Gotta blame them damn uppity women.

[lojasmo]

146. Fuck the vatican N/T

[llmart]

150. This 55-year old, lifelong feminist.....

would like to go on record as saying I don't give a shit what the pope thinks about us. If you're a feminist, the last person you'll listen to is the pope.

His comments are like farts in a windstorm to us. We could care less what he says.

[ButterflyBlood]

152. so apparentely feminists are worse than pedophiles

Weird priorities the Papist Church has.

[Surf Cowboy]

155. Perhaps they should be

more concerned about their priests diddling little boys and their diocese cover-ups.

[CBHagman]

156. Oh, I'm REALLY scared.

Please go back to working on relations between the Jewish and Catholic communities, Your Holiness, and stop annoying the rest of us. Thank you.

[RazzoDazzo]

161. What's a pope? I didn't know there was one much less give a shit about

any of his utterances....

[Endangered Specie]

165. Is this 2004 or 1004?

[Endangered Specie]

166. HARK! I think I get it now...

Pope want to stop feminism,
so women are forced to revert
back to babymakers
Thus, more kids means,
more altar boys, which means,
happier preists, which means,
more money to the vatican.

[Tight_rope]

168. I've said it once and I'll say it again..."FUCK THE POPE"!

[Swamp Rat]

171. The title should read: "Pope calls for return to the Dark Ages."

The book of Genesis is fiction, but the enslavement women is not.

"... the document accuses feminists of blurring the biological difference between man and woman." So these guys think that feminists are bio-alchemists?

This is why I'm passionate about the separation of Church and State, so religious lunatics can't fuck up the Earth any more than they already have.

[DaveSZ]

172. Bah

:(

[Swamp Rat]

174. You forgot "humbug."

[Gore1FL]

182. For someone infallible

the pope is sure wrong a lot.

[Name removed]

184. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[noonwitch]

186. Who cares, the Pope has no say in my daily life

He's an old guy in Rome. I'm not a catholic, so anything he says has no bearing on my life as an american protestant. If catholic women, especially american catholic women, object, they are free to quit and join a different church.

[Susang]

190. However, what he says can have great influence on his followers

That can end up influencing your daily life. I wish he were merely an old guy in Rome, but his pronouncements cause others to act and often they act politically, at the church's urging. That's why I believe these pronouncements are important and should not be minimized.

[Chicago Democrat]

191. As a Catholic Feminist I say "FUCK YOU POPE"

What an ass, please go see Goddess in person and get lost.

[Bowline]

192. Since I'm not Catholic I guess the pope is irrelevant. n/t

[GoBlue]

193. Religion pegs my baloney meter

But then religion is not for those who have faith in their soul.

[Swamp Rat]

199. Ha ha!

"Religion pegs my baloney meter." That's a good line. If you want to see more "Oscar Meyer," look at some of the posts in this thread.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

196. I would make the Pope weep....

As a woman who was raised Catholic and who spent 12 years in Catholic school, I have grown to be a woman who has had sex outside of marriage, uses birth control, and has no desire to bear a child and even less to marry. I am everything the Catholic church fears from a woman.

The church has changed the wording and the tone of their message in the past few years, but it remains essentially the same -- women, you are closest to fulfilling your god-given role when you act in line with your biology and are producing children and caring for your husband/family.

And that is one of many reasons I stopped being a Catholic long ago.

[Selwynn]

200. The pope needs to hurry up and die.

[Baltimoreboy]

206. Karma is a bitch

At least I hope so.

[Susang]

210. Since Catholics do not believe in Karma

I'm assuming that you actually meant justice?

[Malva Zebrina]

209. "blurring the biological difference between man and woman".

Naturally, this is the threat.

The hierophants, the pedophi8les, the males who dominate in this dictatorship of a religion, fear losing their power. If they cannot dominate over all, they become fearful.

They then demand that followers of their religion, follow "tradition" in order to be
"saved"

LOL. Naturallym, the "tradition" is that the male is in some way superior to the female and more and better equipped to be in charge.

This religion has , since Augustine, feared women and their sex.
earlier Christians, following Gnostic beliefs, had not this prejudice toward women.

They have prevailed because they have intimidated the women and forced them to believe in their own secondary, less than, position

[happyslug]

212. You should read the letter, there is NO attack on feminist...

Now it does address the problem of working women and their family (and the problem of the stay at home housewife) and the thrust of the letter is clearly to try to have society address the problems women face. It does attack people who want to treat women and men interchangably but more to address the problem that men and women are NOT interchangeable. Lets look at some of what it says:

"Although motherhood is a key element of women's identity, this does not mean that women should be considered from the sole perspective of physical procreation. In this area, there can be serious distortions, which extol biological fecundity in purely quantitative terms and are often accompanied by dangerous disrespect for women......

In this perspective, one understands the irreplaceable role of women in all aspects of family and social life involving human relationships and caring for others. Here what John Paul II has termed the genius of women becomes very clear.19 It implies first of all that women be significantly and actively present in the family, “the primordial and, in a certain sense sovereign society”,20 since it is here above all that the features of a people take shape; it is here that its members acquire basic teachings. They learn to love inasmuch as they are unconditionally loved, they learn respect for others inasmuch as they are respected, they learn to know the face of God inasmuch as they receive a first revelation of it from a father and a mother full of attention in their regard. Whenever these fundamental experiences are lacking, society as a whole suffers violence and becomes in turn the progenitor of more violence. It means also that women should be present in the world of work and in the organization of society, and that women should have access to positions of responsibility which allow them to inspire the policies of nations and to promote innovative solutions to economic and social problems.

In this regard, it cannot be forgotten that the interrelationship between these two activities – family and work – has, for women, characteristics different from those in the case of men. The harmonization of the organization of work and laws governing work with the demands stemming from the mission of women within the family is a challenge. The question is not only legal, economic and organizational; it is above all a question of mentality, culture, and respect. Indeed, a just valuing of the work of women within the family is required. In this way, women who freely desire will be able to devote the totality of their time to the work of the household without being stigmatized by society or penalized financially, while those who wish also to engage in other work may be able to do so with an appropriate work-schedule, and not have to choose between relinquishing their family life or enduring continual stress, with negative consequences for one's own equilibrium and the harmony of the family......

Therefore, the promotion of women within society must be understood and desired as a humanization accomplished through those values, rediscovered thanks to women. Every outlook which presents itself as a conflict between the sexes is only an illusion and a danger: it would end in segregation and competition between men and women, and would promote a solipsism nourished by a false conception of freedom.

Without prejudice to the advancement of women's rights in society and the family, these observations seek to correct the perspective which views men as enemies to be overcome. The proper condition of the male-female relationship cannot be a kind of mistrustful and defensive opposition. Their relationship needs to be lived in peace and in the happiness of shared love.

On a more concrete level, if social policies – in the areas of education, work, family, access to services and civic participation – must combat all unjust sexual discrimination, they must also listen to the aspirations and identify the needs of all. The defence and promotion of equal dignity and common personal values must be harmonized with attentive recognition of the difference and reciprocity between the sexes where this is relevant to the realization of one's humanity, whether male or female.

For a summary of the letter see:
http://www.vatican.va/news_services/press/vis/dinamiche/d0_en.htm

The actual letter:
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20040731_collaboration_en.html