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The Nation: How They Could Steal the Election This Time

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Barrett808 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 12:33 PM
Original message
The Nation: How They Could Steal the Election This Time
How They Could Steal the Election This Time
by Ronnie Dugger

Ronnie Dugger wrote the definitive warning essay about the dangers of computerized vote-counting in The New Yorker of November 7, 1988. Research support was provided by The Nation Institute. Dugger wishes to acknowledge the special assistance of Frances Mendenhall, Pokey Anderson, Peter Neumann, Rebecca Mercuri, Roxanne Jekot and David Jefferson, and his debt to hundreds of other reporters whose work cannot be properly credited here.

On November 2 millions of Americans will cast their votes for President in computerized voting systems that can be rigged by corporate or local-election insiders. Some 98 million citizens, five out of every six of the roughly 115 million who will go to the polls, will consign their votes into computers that unidentified computer programmers, working in the main for four private corporations and the officials of 10,500 election jurisdictions, could program to invisibly falsify the outcomes.

The result could be the failure of an American presidential election and its collapse into suspicions, accusations and a civic fury that will make Florida 2000 seem like a family spat in the kitchen. Robert Reich, Bill Clinton's Labor Secretary, has written, "Automated voting machines will be easily rigged, with no paper trails to document abuses." Senator John Kerry told Florida Democrats last March, "I don't think we ought to have any vote cast in America that cannot be traced and properly recounted." Pointing out in a recent speech at the NAACP convention that "a million African-Americans were disenfranchised in the last election," Kerry says his campaign is readying 2,000 lawyers to "challenge any place in America where you cannot trace the vote and count the votes" .

About a third of the votes, 36 million, will be tabulated completely inside the new paperless, direct-recording-electronic (DRE) voting systems, on which you vote directly on a touch-screen. Unlike receipted transactions at the neighborhood ATM, however, you get no paper record of your vote. Since, as a government expert says, "the ballot is embedded in the voting equipment," there is no voter-marked paper ballot to be counted or recounted. Voting on the DRE, you never know, despite what the touch-screen says, whether the computer is counting your vote as you think you are casting it or, either by error or fraud, it is giving it to another candidate. No one can tell what a computer does inside itself by looking at it; an election official "can't watch the bits inside," says Dr. Peter Neumann, the principal scientist at the Computer Science Laboratory of SRI International and a world authority on computer-based risks.

The four major election corporations count votes with voting-system source codes. These are kept strictly secret by contract with the local jurisdictions and states using the machines. That secrecy makes it next to impossible for a candidate to examine the source code used to tabulate his or her own contest. In computer jargon a "trapdoor" is an opening in the code through which the program can be corrupted. David Stutsman, an Indiana lawyer whose suits in the 1980s exposed a trapdoor that was being used by the nation's largest election company at that time, puts it well: "The secrecy of the ballot has been turned into the secrecy of the vote count."

(more)

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040816&s=dugger
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 12:40 PM
Response to Original message
1. The DemocraticUnderground Psychic Hotline strikes again
Over a year ago now.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Actually, it became a big DU issue right after the 2002 midterms...
Especially when in Georgia (first state with statewide touchscreens) TWO races saw final week double digit reversals against the Democratic candidates.

So it's been almost 2 years now.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. How time flies when you realize
they control the machines!
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-04 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #3
45. Brought it over from bartcop forum BEFORE the 2002 election.
I think it was the end of September. We were already on the lookout for fraud by the time of the election, that's why it blew up so fast afterward. DU was on fire afterwards and never let up.
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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
2. There could be a repeat of the Florida
voting scandal, what with the faulty voting machines and corrupt overseers of the process. Don't miss Bill Moyers PBS presentation re. the problem. You can be damned sure Bushco will do anything to win the election. Do all you can to insure that your state officials are above board re. the election.
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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
4. why are we turning our voting process over to private companies? . . .
the whole notion of turning our voting mechanism over to private, for-profit corporations (which, as corporations, have vested interests in the election outcomes) is inimical to good government and to the very foundation on which our democracy rests . . .

why is this happening? . . . why are our representatives letting it happen? . . . if there's anything more outrageous, more egregious, more injurious to the security and sanctity of our votes, I don't know what it is . . .

WE MUST NOT ALLOW THIS TO HAPPEN! . . .
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Wright Patman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. It is happening
because the PTB know that neither demographic nor economic trends are moving in their favor.

A country with a few at the top owning everything and no middle class dare not ever trust the destitute masses with the actual selection of a president any longer.

And since all power has been concentrated into the executive branch, the presidency is all that matter anymore anyhow.
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Crachet2004 Donating Member (725 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. You are SO right, and when it finally penetrates to the great mass...
Of the American People what has been perpetrated on them with these machines, I think they are going to go absolutely freaking berserk.

I think these kind of shenanigans deserve a return of the 90% marginal top rate in the tax code, and close every single loophole. That way, the top 2% will not have so much money lying around to get in trouble with.

It's for their own good, really.
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Fovea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #16
24. And the nationalization of oil and energy.
until we can sort out the next gen of energy supply.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #16
33. A brilliant comment.
You could build it into a whole essay & publish it somewhere.

Toughlove for the rich.
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Crachet2004 Donating Member (725 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. Well, lol, if it keeps going the way it is now, soon there is going to be.
Big trouble. People need a certain minimum of hope for advancement of their own aspirations, and that is rapidly disappearing in this country.

Eventually, there will be a backlash. I shudder to think what the reaction will be if, for example, the GOP were to steal yet another election.

I do not think the Democratic Party will throw in the towel quite as easily as in 2000.

And really, I think there should be rewards won and punishment meted out, when we win. Changing the tax code in our favor is a good start. I don't know the whole story, but I figure the wealthy were being punished when it was at 90% before...then they got a few loopholes, then reagan, then bush and bush, then, well you know-time to jack them back up again!

They have been very, very, bad boys, and we need to make sure they can't do it again for ANOTHER fifty years.
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CJCRANE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-04 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. Another difference
is that the Democratic Party will have the support of a majority of world citizens as well this time.
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #4
29. Hey... it's all about "smaller"
government... a RW talking point... a "sellable item" a "clever ruse" a "shill" a "scam" in other words pure BS.

We are making government smaller so they say... but how is it smaller when Haliburton (posing as a corp saving tax dollars) is sucking the very life out of what was once a surplus? How is that so when bags of laundry were being done for 100$ a pop along with all the rest of the scandal and corruption? Giving over public jobs and institutions to private industry that you happen to be directly tied to is not only ineffective... but it is also illegal. I guess you can always just tell people who complain about your criminal activity to go "f" yourself.

How is putting the voting process in the hands of private corporations that are supporters of none other than yourself... making government smaller?? Truth is.. it ain't and that is the problem. Oh how we shall spread our "truth and justice" all over the world.. won't it be grand... isn't it grand.

http://www.jimhightower.com/buy/thieves.asp
>>I. LOST AMERICA (The Bad News)
1. BushCo
2. Never Have So Few Done So Much for So Few » read .pdf excerpt
3. Bad Apples
4. The Super-Duper Empire of King George the W
5. The Wobblycrats » read .pdf excerpt

II. AMERICA THE POSSIBLE (The Good News)
6. Even the Smallest Dog Can Lift Its Leg on the Tallest Building » read .pdf excerpt
7. Legacy

III. AMERICA THE BEAUTIFUL (The Best News of All)
8. A Progressive Optimist in the Age of Bushwa » read .pdf excerpt
9. Public Spirit » read .pdf excerpt
10. Wal-Mart: How to Play Beat The Devil » read .pdf excerpt
11. Taking Charge of Dinner
12. No Sweat » read .pdf excerpt
13. The Road To Privacy
14. Don't Be An Idiot » read .pdf excerpt<<
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Bo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-04 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #4
44. Hand marked paper ballots to difficult in U.S.?
Look at Canada and most other counrtries.They still use good old hand marked ballots.
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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
5. ...and don't forget:
if our man Kerry wins, the Repubs are going to claim that the machines were rigged in our favor and that's why we've been putting up a squawk for all these years about the touch-screen. Then, when the riots start, fueled by the same brownshirts we swaw in Dade County in 2000, they'll declare martial law, the Supremes will make another one-time ruling that * is Prez, and we'll gnash our teeth for another four years on this website...

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maryallen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #5
34. Bob Novak ...
Tonight on Crossfire Novak accused the Dems of planning to steal the upcoming election. Projection? Cover-your-ass?
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AspenRose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-04 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #34
48. If he's so worried about the election being stolen, perhaps he should
join other Democrats in insisting that the UN supervise the election.

Someone should ask him to do that....and then see what he says.

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ecoalex Donating Member (718 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
6. As the reps say in Florida- Absentee Ballot people
I absentee vote it makes sense.In Oregon all voting is done by mail.Very few voters get disenfranchaised this way, why the reps call for their voters to ask for an absentee ballot this time.I guess electronic machines are good enuf for Dems, noone seems to call for it.
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wryter2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. The dh and I always do, anyway
However, last time, our absentee ballots were scanned by Diebold machinery, and the machines screwed it up. (Alameda County, CA)
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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
7. Vote absentee if your county will be using touchscreen machines.
This will at least ensure a paper trail.
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Gin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. finally its main stream....glad we still use the punch card...and I have
learned to check my chads.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
11. I wonder if they're Tempest protected.
A 'voter' could walk in with a relatively simple capacitor-based EMP device in his pocket and fry the micro-guts fairly easily, I believe.

I find it beyond jaw-dropping incredible that people have allowed these Trojan Horses inside the gates of our (purported) Democracy. After working for over 35 yeas in MIS/IT and doing embedded programming, operating systems programming, applications programming, and systems analysis at the micro, distributed, and mainframe levels, I'd never allow black-box (hidden code) equipment in a polling place without extraordinary quality assurance (MilSpec), audit, and control (validation and verification) processes to safeguard the process ... and I'd NEVER permit the code (either software or firmware) to be hidden and proprietary. NEVER. (It's a "Bend over and 'fuck me'" invitation. Beyond stupid.)
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #11
20. They are not
I've mentioned this possibility a few times, but so far none of the experts consider it a possible plan of attack.

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Voltaire99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
13. Theft is almost certain
The absence of an uproar over the 2000 theft guaranteed as much. The Dems should have staged vigorous protest, refused to recognize Bush, and kept the issue alive for four years. Instead, well, we all know what followed...
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
14. Didn't A Bunch of Student Attain the Code from DIebold
Edited on Sat Jul-31-04 02:14 PM by stepnw1f
I remember reading somewhere, that the code had been attained by students and what they had found was highly suspicious. The code itself wasn't just pourous, it looked intentionally flawed.

Either way, the outcome for this election will not be smooth, and I'm afraid the Supreme Court may be deciding this again, and not because it was a close call.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. Actually, folks right here at DU
looked at the code. It was discovered accidently by Bev Harris and examined by a team of volunteers from DU and other places. It was finally looked at by Scientists at Johns Hopkins.

see http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0307/S00065.htm

David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
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Lizzie Borden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. That makes my blood run cold...
like nothing has done for a long time. What do we do??? I will vote absentee, and I'm sure where I live my vote will be counted, but what are others to do?:kick:
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Seabiscuit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 03:13 PM
Response to Original message
15. BUSH IS STILL NOT *TOAST* UNTIL
something HUGE is done about this impending disaster.

If Americans were allowed to vote today and have every vote count, Bush would suredly be toast.

If Americans are allowed to vote Nov 2 and have every vote count, Bush would suredly be toast.

Yet behind the scenes for years now, dreading the unthinkable (to them - that they could and probably will be voted out of office), and in all their typical secrecy, the Bush administration has been slavishly working to ensure that their corporate buddies at Diebold, etc. will guarantee that they will get away with STEALING another election.

There's no doubt about it. This is far more sinister and far more dangerous to our democracy than all their illegal manipulations 2000.

With all the rhetoric, what on earth is the DNC doing/going to do about this terrifyingly fascistic menace? Such statements as:

"Kerry says his campaign is readying 2,000 lawyers to 'challenge any place in America where you cannot trace the vote and count the votes'." WILL NOT PREVENT the impending catastophe. Rather, it's like treating a soldier's leg, blown up by a landmine, with a bandaid.

Until these landmines to our democracy are removed, countless millions of Americans will be systematically disenfranchised and nothing short of armed revolution against the current and future junta will be sufficient to "take our country back".

Is it any wonder the Chimp is still smirking today and everyday he criss-crosses this country spewing filthy and transparent lies with the confidence of one who knows that he can say and get away with anything under the sun with these machines (and his minions of corrupt computer hackers and voting officials) in place to do his dirty work for him.

The DNC/ACLU must move FAST AND NOW to file suit in every state court and every federal court to obtain court injunctions removing these machines that are currently in place and replace them either with paper ballots or machines that produce paper trails not only for the voters themselves, but for the election officials tallying votes at the voting booths. Secondly, the DNC MUST recruit at least 100,000 people to supervise and monitor ALL activities of all election officals at the voting booths to ensure right-wing plants do not destroy or alter the vote-count using such paper receipts.

2,000 lawyers, after the election has been stolen, will not begin to be able to undo the damage on such a massive scale.

I think DU should devote a new forum to this one issue - and perhaps not only spread the word but participate in organizing a volunteer task force to assist in preventing this looming castrophe for our democracy from coming to pass.
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tlcandie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #15
31. I think that it will be a given that there will be riots in the streets..
it will be either from the rethugs or our side. If it is their side, it won't be pretty.

So, are we planning on any type of organization ahead of time for these protests so that there is no loss of life and little time as possible lost before visible actions are seen on the streets of America?
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 03:42 PM
Response to Original message
17. History is so interesting.
The British government was determined to prevent the British East India Company from going out of business. It was going to force the colonists to buy their tea. In May 1773, Prime Minister North and the British parliament passed the Tea Act. The Tea Act allowed the British East India Company to sell tea directly to the colonists, bypassing the colonial wholesale merchants. This allowed the company to sell their tea cheaper than the colonial merchants who were selling smuggled tea from Holland.

This act revived the colonial issue of taxation without representation. The colonies once again demanded that the British government remove the tax on tea. In addition, the dockworkers began refusing to unload the tea from ships.

The Governor of Massachusetts demanded that the tea be unloaded. He also demanded that the people pay the taxes and duty on tea.

On the evening of December 16, 1773, a group of men calling themselves the "Sons of Liberty" went to the Boston Harbor. The men were dressed as Mohawk Indians. They boarded three British ships, the Beaver, the Eleanor and the Dartmouth, and dumped forty-five tons of tea into the Boston Harbor.

http://www.kidport.com/RefLib/UsaHistory/AmericanRevolution/TeaParty.htm
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Seabiscuit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Indeed, however, this is 2004
And imagine the carnage that would occur in the streets were the true American patriots to rise up against a corrupt and vile junta after the 2004 election is stolen by the rise of the *machines* (shades of the "Terminator"). Armed revolution would be our only choice. We would have to organize a blitzkrieg-style takeover of the White House, Congress, the Pentagon, and the Supreme Court in order to have a ghost's chance in hell of succeeding, and even then there would be massive carnage as Buscho unleashes its armies, police forces and national guardsmen on its own citizens. Would those three groups turn on Buscho and join the revolution? Perhaps, but not immediately.

Mere demonstrations, turning more and more violent, would result in the slaughter of millions of Americans on the streets of our nation's capitol.

Armageddon is approaching, folks, if the spineless Dems who have been asleep at the wheel for almost four years now since the scandalous manipulations of Jeb Bush and Katherine Harris and the Dubya legal team, fail to act NOW and FORCEFULLY to get rid of Diebold and the other company machines in place to silently steal the last shred of our democracy from us.

And imagine what would happen to the stock, bond and real estate markets in such an event? Total collapse. Rioting in the streets in search of food. The only safe investments would be foreign investments. And maybe not even that. And this administrations bankers in Toyko and Beijing could bankrupt our country. The only money left would be in the Social Security surplus, which Buscho would squander in an all-out war against the government's own people.

Am I crazy to dream such incredibly frightening dreams?

I don't know. I hope so. But THINK about what SHOULD have been done long ago to prevent the takeover of our elections by the rise of the machines, and THINK about what HASN'T been done, and THINK about how little time we have to do ANYTHING about it, and THINK about how NO ONE is really doing a damned thing about it. Then THINK about the possible consequences to follow in the wake of such a scandalous nationwide disenfranchisement. Any of you think there was a "coup" in 2000? That's small potatoes compared to the "coup" these same cretins have in store for us, the mechanics for which are already in place, in 2004.

It's time to think about the unthinkable, if that's what it takes to ignite a fire in the DNC to ACT NOW before it's too late. We have only three months to go, and miles and miles before we can allow ourselves to fall asleep again.
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. The event that I posted occurred before our War for Independence began.
Edited on Sat Jul-31-04 05:00 PM by Zorra
I was not at all referring to a violent revolution, and did not mean to infer the violent overthrow of our government.

Just as you posted, that would only result in tragedy for the people of the US.

(Thoreau had some interesting ideas)

IMO, in the case of electronic voting devices and their usage, it is clear that these voting devices, that cannot be verifiably publically audited, exist for only one reason: They are devices whose sole purpose is for corrupt persons to subvert the democratic process in order that they may undemocratically and illegally attain, or remain in, power.

What steps are necessary to insure that these non-auditable voting devices are not used with mischievous intent in the election of Nov. 2, 2004? And is it not critical to our society and democracy that these steps be taken?

I agree completely with your post.
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Spiffarino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. By any means necessary...
...if they try to steal this next election.

Enough said.
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Seabiscuit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. Thank you.
And I agree completely with your post as well.

I'm just really, really, concerned about this voting device/"rise of the machines" problem. I read the article in its entirety, and the current situation is a lot scarier than the excerpt quoted at the head of this thread would suggest. Despite numerous efforts at solving the problem, most have which have been thwarted, there is precious little time to devise solutions and rid ourselves of this menace in just three months.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-04 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #19
40. You give mainstream America too much credit
the VAST majority of Americans don't give a shit about politics. If they did, DU would have tens of millions of members. There will be protests in major cities, but that's about it. As long as there's Wal-Mart and inane reality shows on TV, most Americans will just stay rooted to their couches with a big bag of cheese puffs in hand.
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abelenkpe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-04 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #40
46. I agree
I sincerely doubt that there will be any rioting or even large scale protests.
If the election goes to bush by a wide margin, anyone who accuses the bush campaign of rigging the election through electronic voting machines will be branded a lunatic.
The average American is not hungry or hurting enough to be moved from their couches. Of course, after another four years of bush that might not be the case.

We do need to encourage our reps to make sure there are verifiable ballots, a paper trail or hand marked ballots, whatever.

But at this point it may be too late. I would like to be more optimistic, but it's difficult.
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-04 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #19
47. "It's time to think about the unthinkable"
That's what we do here, any questions?
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Dover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
18. Bush/Cheney should be in JAIL, not up for re-election! We should be
Edited on Sat Jul-31-04 04:14 PM by Dover
pressing for completion and CONVICTION on the pending criminal allegations and lawsuits directed at those in the administration.

Relying on the vote alone is a BIG mistake, as we have already discovered over TWO failed voting cycles due to fraud.
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Seabiscuit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Agreed, however one word
makes such a pleasant dream of *convictions* impossible: ASHCROFT.
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Seabiscuit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Oh, I forgot a second word:
Scalia.
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Spiffarino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. That's "Scaliathomas" n/t
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Seabiscuit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. This thread is too important to go ignored...
so... :kick:
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candy331 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-04 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #18
42. Dover I concur with you , why Bush is even registering positive
in the polls is beyond comprehension. Has America now truly gone beyond all hope.
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cliss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 11:59 PM
Response to Original message
36. I would like to offer a humble prediction:
If they steal the next presidential election, this country as a democracy is finished.

And I don't just mean the Diebold paperless voting machines. I expect that they will disenfranchise certain groups, corrupt election supervisors, destroying ballots etc.

I don't see how we can survive as a country. Because the crooked ones who are in charge will now stop at nothing. Now they will shut down ANY dissent and make us all their serfs as they pillage and plunder not only this country but the rest of the world.

EVERYONE will be their victim because there will be no one to stop them. An outcome I don't even dare think about.....
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Seabiscuit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-04 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #36
43. Every empire in the history of the world,
when extended to excess, has crumbled. The imperialists who stole our country in 2000, given enough time in office, will utterly destroy the empire they create, and this country along with it.

Does anyone seriously believe Cheney, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, Rice, Perle, Rove or *anyone* in the Bush family has ever really learned *anything* significant from history? If they'd ever learned anything from history Bin Laden would have been captured long ago, al queda financial sources would have been cut off/dried up, our ports and borders and nuclear power plants would be secure, unguarded stockpiles of WMDs in Russia would be secure, Saddam would still be powerless and contained, and we wouldn't be in Iraq. Oh, and employment would be up instead of in the pits, and the DJIA would be far higher than the 11,500 it was at when Bush took office.
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Spiffarino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-04 10:20 AM
Response to Original message
37. Agreed...too important to be missed, so...
:kick:
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Barrett808 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-04 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
38. Combine this with carefully directed "terror alerts" for certain states
And it's a lock. The terror alert gambit might even work without the electronic vote-rigging.
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-04 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. Yep, like the Daily Show...
If you live in a large urban area, especially one that votes Democratic, stay home. Don't be a hero.
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