Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

A republican congressman(Ron Paul) is riping neocons a .......

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Latest Breaking News Donate to DU
 
chaumont58 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-03 01:44 PM
Original message
A republican congressman(Ron Paul) is riping neocons a .......
Edited on Thu Jul-10-03 07:45 PM by chaumont58
new asshole on CSPAN1 right now(5:41pm pdt). This could be news tomorrow, except on the Faux Channel.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 07:44 PM
Response to Original message
1. You've confused me. How do you "reap" a neocon a new ass****? Do
you grow it or what?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lcordero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. he meant "reaming" I think
EOM
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
chaumont58 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #6
22. I meant 'riping', I can't spell for beans.
*
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Flubadubya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #22
62. That's OK, we knew what you meant....
but it has 2 "p"s, i.e. "ripping"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GreatAuntK Donating Member (534 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 07:44 PM
Response to Original message
2. Ron Paul
I can't believe my ears. He's from Texas, talking about Neo-Cons movement!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Gin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. I am shocked...he sounds like a DU'er...........wow
gm
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
indictrichardperle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 07:45 PM
Response to Original message
3. TUNE IN NOW !!!!!!
Hes taking on Faux, Bunker Dick and PNAC.

Holy Shit
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lcordero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 07:45 PM
Response to Original message
4. He's not really a Repuke
He's more of a "Barry Goldwater" conservative.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
indictrichardperle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. actually hes a liberatarian
Hes an honest fellow. I respect him. Some dems may not like him because he is for limited govt, but hes very pro-peace and very honest.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lcordero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. Actually I respect him because of his vote against the Patriot Act
http://clerkweb.house.gov/cgi-bin/vote.exe?year=2001&rollnumber=398

It must have felt almost as lonely for him, Rep.Otter and Rep.Ney as it did for Sen.Feingold.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
indepat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #8
24. Is he pro-peace or maybe just against unprovoked, unjust, inhumane,
unnecessary and illegal pre-emptive war? I dunno.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NewJerseyDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-11-03 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #24
89. I think pro-peace
His speech made him seem like he was an isolationist that probably opposes almost any war. He said that neoconservatives were using to September 11th as an excuse to go to war with Iraq. He said people did the same thing with the Lusitania in order to get into World War 1. So, most people support the US entering World War 1 while it seems like he maybe doesn't which makes it seem like he is pretty much a pacifist.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
joeunderdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #8
57. Pure libertarians know that repukes use their party for greed.
They detest when government works against the people. They don't want us mucking it up with other countries, abusing our own citizens' rights and expanding the government at the expense of the citizens. It wasn't long ago when there were a number of Republicans whose politics were based on deep ideological concerns and not greed.

My uncle is one of these pure libertarians and we share our disgust for Bush, his lying and greed and the self-serving, victimizing agenda of most of the Repukes out there.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 07:45 PM
Response to Original message
5. Its over
This is a dead man walking adminsitration... WOW
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GreatAuntK Donating Member (534 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #5
19. Paraphrasing
Edited on Thu Jul-10-03 08:07 PM by kmargret
Since neo-cons dominate it behooves us to understand their goals. Irving Crystal, Leo Strauss, Mahiavelli... Michael Ledine an influential neo-con theorist & his book on Machiavelli was passed out at a strategy meeting. "The War Against The Terror Masters" - creative destruction both within our society and abroad...

"They must attack us in order to survive just as we must destroy them ..."

Pre-emptive war. Ledine praises a business leader: "There are no absolute solutions ... what is right depends on what needs to be done and how."

A prince must have no other objectiveds except war - war is an integral policy of neo-con policy.

Peace increases our peril by making discipline less urgent... would undermine the power of the state.

To capitulate and give up striving for peace is a frightening thought that condemns the world to perpetual war. These are dangerous ideas.

The conflict is between the state and the individual."

(All this from a Republican - I've been trying to paraphrase here. - K.)

In order to achieve the most noble accomplish the leader may have to enter into evil ... the chilling insight that has made Machiavelli so feared, admired and challenged.

Man is so depraved that individuals are incapable of moral...greatness, need an authoritarian leader.

Are these ideas influencing our leaders in Washington?
? Where do they obtain their monopoly on wisdom

Lying is central, because if our enemies can depend on our reliability vulernability is increased. Preserving the state is their goal even if individual freedom has to go.

.... PNAC forsaw the need for a Pearl Harbor event that would galvanize the Am. people...while strangling any potential rival. 9-11 was used to support a policy that is appalling, disturbing.

After 9-11 they argued to attack Iraq even though it was not related.

There's more than just the influence of lpre-emptive war. Neo-con-ism is being debated even if it's not fully understood. No appetite to challenge the system that does challenge to our economy. Debt is not seen as a problemm. Conservatives now accept deficit spending... Civil liberties are easily sacrificed. Foreign aid championed, lip service given to free market & trade but favoring big labor, big business & big money.

End of local limited government movement in our Capitol. Liberals have become lazy in defending civil liberties, approving wars.

The people are less well off while liberty languishes as a result...

Federal spending is growing faster than at any time in 35 years.

It does not need to be that way. Authoratarian rule is authoratarian rule. A solution can come after the ideology is replaced with a more positive one. Liberty is a modern idea and must regain the high ground for civilization to advance.

I realize all cons. are not neo-cons., and all do not agree on all points. Most members of Congress & in Admin. don't take their marching orders from...Richard Perle... This country still allows open discourse, though less every day. It is getting difficult to get fair discussion on issues. Hegemons object to them as traitors, unpatriotic and un-American. Uniformity of cable news should concern every American. We should be grateful for C-Span.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sophree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-11-03 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #19
87. HFS!
.... PNAC forsaw the need for a Pearl Harbor event that would galvanize the Am. people...while strangling any potential rival. 9-11 was used to support a policy that is appalling, disturbing.

After 9-11 they argued to attack Iraq even though it was not related.

****

I can't believe he mentioned the PNAC's call for a "Pearl Harbor-like event."

See, we aren't the only ones who want our country back!!

:bounce:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
study_war_no_more Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-03 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #87
100. LIHOP is coming
like a big black bear over the hill to go after the bull.
VISUALIse swirled peas
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
proud patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 07:47 PM
Response to Original message
9. Holy Cow
That's a Texas Repuke.....He is going off ...Just said
the threat never exsisted :wow:

using the term "neo-cons" bringing up the founding fathers
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
indictrichardperle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Now hes going into Leo Strauss and Michael Ledeen
Holy Shit.

He is pouring all of the soiled garbage on the house floor. Ron Paul is AWESOME.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
w13rd0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 07:50 PM
Response to Original message
11. I respect Ron Paul...
...and agree that the current crop of neocons in this Administration more resemble corporate socialist Trotskyites than traditional conservative or liberal mindsets. He's got quite a few commentaries out there that are GREAT to use with people that claim they are conservative. I love "We are all Democrats now"...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DrPepper Donating Member (194 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. "We are all democrats now"
I don't understand the context of this quote. Did Ron Paul say this or is it a saying?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
w13rd0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #14
45. Yes, it was the title of an essay...
...he wrote.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DannyRed Donating Member (509 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #11
75. HEY!
Leave Trotsky alone!

If anything, he would be MORE vehemently opposed to these assholes than anyone here, and would have advocated MORE than "electing a democrat" as a panacea to solve all our ills.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 07:51 PM
Response to Original message
12. Ron Paul on TomPaine.com
asked a series of powerful and important questions before the war. The article is still there: http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/6404
On another more trivial and personal note...is it necessary to be so vulgar?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
indictrichardperle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. the word
"shit", as in "holy shit" ?

It was a adjective derived from great enthusiasm, as Mr Paul is reading word for word from Ledeen's book, where Ledeen praises fascism and lying to the people for the sake of aggressive war.

Next time ill use "poop", Holy Poop :D
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JaySherman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 07:52 PM
Response to Original message
13. Now he's attributing Machiavelli quotes to Ledeen
Wow. I can't believe I'm hearing this. It's got to be too good to be true.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AntiCoup2K4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
16. I didn't have a clue who Ron Paul was before 5 minutes ago, but....
Edited on Thu Jul-10-03 07:59 PM by AntiCoup2k
....Holy SHIT, this is good! :evilgrin:

BTW, who the Hell is this Ledeen guy he's quoting??
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mjb4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
18. Neacons say Peace is WUSSY
this speech would make the masses rush the capital or atleast cry. Neocons say PEACE is WUSSY.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Gin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. I didn't know who he was either..thought it was Mo Paul...
this guy has my attention....and admiration for these words..
wow...way to go Ron.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AntiCoup2K4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 08:01 PM
Response to Original message
21. YES!! He just dropped the big one...
The 9-11 Pearl Harbor bomb! :evilgrin:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JaySherman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 08:01 PM
Response to Original message
23. PNAC!
nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AntiCoup2K4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. He just mentioned Perle by name. Did he mention any of the other....
traitorous PNAC shitheads specifically?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GreatAuntK Donating Member (534 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #27
35. He definitely mentioned
Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, others - I did not hear Jeb's name, although he is a signatory of PNAC.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Barrett808 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
25. This will be a transcript to be widely disseminated
It should be posted at his Congressional site, right?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
indictrichardperle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. He is striking at the heart of evil
American Enterprise Institute and Richard Perle.

Now lambasting media whores for stifling dissent.

I think Ron paul posts on DU :evilgrin:

Okay which one of you are congressman Paul ?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
berry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-11-03 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #25
95. Here's a link to Ron Paul's speech from last night in the House
It sounds like almost the same speech (last night there was NO one else on the floor--so maybe he's repeating it, though there seem to be a few small additions today). Anyway, you can get it NOW--and check later for todays speech.

http://www.thelibertycommittee.org/index.html

YAY, Ron Paul!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Barrett808 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 08:06 PM
Response to Original message
26. "Authoritarian rule is authoritarian rule"
Amen.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BuckeFushe Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
28. I am stunned at his candor
My jaw hurts from how low it has dropped. "Marching orders from Richard Pearle", priceless.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
30. "Most members of Congress do not take their marching orders
from AEI or Richard Perle."

Paraphrased:

w/o a special event they realized the difficulties of selling a pre-emptive war.

Ledeen on Pearl Harbor, calling it a lucky event. PNAC likewise saw the need for a Pearl Harbor event to galvanize the Amer people to support their ambitious plans.

After 9/11 Rumsfeld and others argued for immediate attack on Iraq even though it was not implicated.

Our gov't is now moved by several ideas I call neoconism. Washington is now driven by old views brought together in a new package.

The Third Way has arrived and it has taken the WORST of what both sides have to offer.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Gin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Bless this man... I have chills!
gm
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BuckeFushe Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. This speech is not yet posted, but I am positive it will be
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nocreativename Donating Member (121 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. paul
I don't have a t.v., but I started looking around the web, this guys running for pres. http://www.paul2004.com/
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BuckeFushe Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. nope, hopeful supporters placed the site
Congressman Ron Paul is committed to running for reelection to his seat in Congress. This website was not posted at his instigation, and is not meant to imply his official sanction, though we do hope he will honor us by throwing his hat in the ring if we can garner enough support.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #33
65. You can always get C-Span on the internet
Edited on Thu Jul-10-03 09:55 PM by JudiLyn
Just go to http://www.c-span.org/

You can either listen to what they are playing on C-Span I, II, or III, or you can look through the opportunities to see previous shows they list under "Latest Video," which lists all the shows from the current day, etc.

I'm not sure what program Ron Paul's speech will appear within, but it's there somewhere. Maybe some DU'er can explain this better than I.

You'll REALLY appreciate the opportunity to tune into C-Span, anytime night or day. You don't NEED to have it on your tv now!

On edit:

Jeez, I just noticed you're a newcomer, "nocreativename!"

Welcome to D.U.! :hi: :hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #31
41. Don't get too excited
we may be enjoying his attacks on the neo-cons et al but I don't think we should get caried away. A Ron Paul America is not most dems ideal.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #41
47. No, but surely we can
appreciate, admire and be grateful for principled people from other than our own parties. To be honest, I rather appreciate Pat Buchanan from time to time ('cept when he's being his BIGOTED self, of course). And I've been a Ron Paul fan since before the war when he was speaking out on the floor of the House in extraordinarily clear terms about the travesty it was.

Eloriel
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
chaumont58 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 08:17 PM
Response to Original message
34. I have never heard anything like this speech
I bet Congressman Paul won't be going to state dinners at the White House any time soon.
He can't be sued or anything like because of the speech and debate clause, but I would also bet that there are a bunch of newcons who would like to sue, or even worse.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FubarFly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. I was wondering how long the moderate repugs
would put up with this neocon crap.

Hopefully this is the start of something.

Any guesses on who else is willing to turn?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #37
48. Ron Paul is NOT a moderate
He is just not a member of the neo-con cabal.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Allah Akbar Donating Member (231 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-03 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #37
97. Moderate repubs are fearful of the Neo-cons as well
The neo-cons will even go after republicans if they don't support their radical agenda.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BuckeFushe Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. Have we ever heard any of our fearless leaders speak like this
The DNC needs to speak to his speechwriter, or him for that matter.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Aaron Donating Member (489 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #34
42. GOP has been working on getting him out for a while IIRC
I think they (the party establishment/neocons) have found primary candidates to run against him in the last few elections but he wins everytime. I disagree with him about half the issues - but I've never seen him be deceitful or act in an unprincipled manner. I'm not in his district so maybe he does act in a nefarious manner sometimes and I don't hear about it, but everything I've seen points to an honest guy who isn't a political trickster, just a true conservative limited government absolutist.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dansolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-11-03 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #34
92. Perle will now declare him a terrorist
Just like Seymour Hersh
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Papillon Donating Member (420 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 08:23 PM
Response to Original message
39. I woke up from a nap at the begining of his speech
and though I must be still dreaming. I could not believe he was saying these things. WOW!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
qanda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 08:27 PM
Response to Original message
40. I saw Ron Paul on Washington Journal...
Before the war and he was very against us going into Iraq. He's a strict constitutionalist. He even voted against honoring Charles Shultz-- he said that if Congress wanted to honor Mr. Shultz they should have taken up a collection amongst themselves and not used the hard-earned money of the taxpayers.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
indictrichardperle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. hes a good man
Dems would be very lucky to have him in their party.

People like Ron Paul and Paul Wellstone are very rare in congress. Honest and they love their country. Nobody owns them but the voters in their district. Can you say that about many in either party ?

The neo-cons are recycled Trotskyites, fascists.....they are a small group who have hijacked the GOP. Old line gop like Buchanan , Novak....they despise them. Unfortunately most of the rethugs are going along with their bullshit.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #43
49. The neo-cons are recycled Trotskyites, fascists
What on earth does that mean? or are you just trotting out words you think sound offensive?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
demgrrrll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #49
52. Rupert Murdoch had a bust of Lenin in his dorm room n/t.
.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SteveG Donating Member (833 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #49
54. Pearl and Wolfowitz
Edited on Thu Jul-10-03 09:08 PM by SteveG
were associated with Trotskyites during their college years. They have just moved their fanaticism and authoritarianism from the Left to the Right. Do a Google search on the following terms... "Perle"+ "Trotskyite"+ "neocon" or "wolfowitz"+ "Trotskyite"+ "neocon" you will be amazed at what you find.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
indictrichardperle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #43
55. many of the neo-cons were leftists
and now advocate fascism. Do a little research loud mouth.
Kristol, Podhoretz, Ledeen, Perle.


And instead of beating around the bush, why not come out and tell us what is so awful about Ron Paul, other than him pounding the crap out of the neo-cons.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. No need to get defensive
and no need to ask me to do your homework for you. I enjoy Paul's attack on the neo-cons but after that there is not too much that I have in common with him. I learned my information from his speeches and wrtngs posted in various places on the net, including Tompaine.com and his own we site. You could do the same. Meanwhile I relish his tongue-lashing of our mutual "enemies".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
indictrichardperle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. no you objected to the terms "trotskyite and fascist"
there is a very good basis for these terms, in describing the neo-cons. They were of the left and now are extremists on the right. Ledeen describes himself as a "universal fascist". The policies of the neo-con resemble fascism more than traditional republicans.

What is it about those facts you object to or dont understand?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zorro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 08:40 PM
Response to Original message
44. This speech needs to be sent to all major network news orgs
This was a stunning, jaw-dropping blast from a member of the Republican party. Paul was hitting on all cylinders, and presented a coherent, explicit, frightening warning to this country on where this administration is deliberately dragging us.

The media will not be serving theirs, the public's, or this country's interests by ignoring this message. The way Paul talked, it was easy to make the connection that "neocon" will be synonymous with "21st century fascism".

Ron Paul hit a grand slam with this speech, and it needs to get the widest dissemination to every news outlet available, and the campaign staff of the various Democrats running for the nomination need to use, discuss, and promote this message.

I urge those of you that missed it to read the transcript. It was an awesome speech, and I'm grateful that someone has finally shown the courage on the House floor to discuss issues at length. Bravo to Ron Paul: I only hope it will serve as a rallying cry to other concerned politicians on both sides of the aisle to speak up against the gross abuse of power being exercised by this administration.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dhalgren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #44
64. I think that if there are any other Republicans of Mr. Paul's stripe
there would be a great opertunity for a concerted effort "across the aisle". If Senator Byrd and Congressman Paul could somehow establish a bi=partisan caucus of some sort - to give support and cover for others to come out of the dark and into the light. We may have come so far into the maw of pure evil that party affiliations made have to take a back seat to honest patriotism.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
46. Get yourselves familiar with what Ron Paul is about...
He has a website: "Project Freedom" -- http://www.house.gov/paul/openingpage.htm

sw

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #46
50. Yes, read it
This man is not someone I would want running the country. Given that we have to have Republicans (!) then it's nice to have the odd one or two like Paul. But you wouldn't want a whole lot of them. Remember: The enemmy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dhalgren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #50
66. Any person who finds the courage to act in a truely patriotic way
will have my support for that action. We can debate and run civilized campaigns against each other and see who can legitimately sway the american public. But to say because his politics are different, then he can not be a patriot, is pretty narrow.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Allah Akbar Donating Member (231 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-03 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #66
98. This is why I have tremendous respect for John McCain
Whether I agree or disagree with him politically, I have no doubt that he loves this country with all his heart and would never do anything like the neo-cons are currently doing to destroy it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nannah Donating Member (690 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-11-03 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #46
77. The Ron Paul Freedom Principles
this clear statement of values offers interesting points for discussion. It comes directly from the link above.

The Ron Paul
FREEDOM PRINCIPLES

* Rights belong to individuals, not groups.
* Property should be owned by people, not government.
* All voluntary associations should be permissible -- economic and social.
* The government's monetary role is to maintain the integrity of the monetary unit, not participate in fraud.
* Government exists to protect liberty, not to redistribute wealth or to grant special privileges.
* The lives and actions of people are their own responsibility, not the government's.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sagan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
51. Ron Paul is one of the few real Republicans in Texas..
Edited on Thu Jul-10-03 08:52 PM by Sagan
And that's because he's really a Libertarian. He ran as their Presidential candidate a couple of times, actually.

Ron Paul has been around a long time here in Texas. The district he represents very well suits him and his philosophies, being comprised mainly of a big swathe of the Gulf Coast and encompassing a lot of small towns. Very little in the way of urban constituents.

Ron Paul is consistent. He's the conservative that Neal Boortz wants you to think he is.

In a Texas filled with imported Bible-thumping, Deep South fundamentalist whackos, Ron Paul keeps the real spirit of Texas alive.

I wish he was a Democrat.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Avatar13 Donating Member (103 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. I'm not so sure he'd make a good Dem
He'd be better as an independent (Lib).


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ROakes1019 Donating Member (434 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 09:21 PM
Response to Original message
59. Ron Paul
His speech on the House floor tonight was a thorough
explication of the neocon and PNAC.  I kept thinking R had
been put after his name by mistake.  He was awesome.  In case
anyone wants to look up the neocon he spoke of, I believe it's
Michael Ladeen, not Ladine.  I've seen some of his crap
around.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Shiraz Donating Member (261 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. Rep. Ron Paul has always gotten it
IMHO eom.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
enough Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 09:27 PM
Response to Original message
61. I am not C-span enabled
A basic question please --

What was the venue of this speech? What was the event? Was it on the floor of the House? What were they discussing? Was there any noticeable reaction from anyone around while he was speaking?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NewJerseyDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #61
71. It was on the floor
I think it was a special order speech which means that he gave the speech at the end of the day. So, he was basically alone on the floor giving a speech for the cameras.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
diamond14 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
63. all congress is getting HAMMERED by their constituents...now
they are all jumping off bush* boat...nobody wants to go down with shrub....it's just the old cover my a*s....no one should be surprised that these die-hard politicians feel that they got to say something "for the record" to prove their own non-complicity...

Did you call/email/write YOUR congressional representative TODAY...and TOMORROW...keep up the pressure...keep up the pressure...everyday, everyday, call a talk show, write a letter, make a phone call...it's the LEAST we can do....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Room101 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 09:54 PM
Response to Original message
67. I left a positive mesage at his office...
You should to!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blackcat77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 09:56 PM
Response to Original message
68. I've been following Ron Paul's career for a long time.
He's a darling of the goofball rightwing shortwave radio stations -- who are so radical they make Rush sound like Maxine Waters. He beieves that TX should be a separate nation and that they never legally entered the union in the first place. He's been a bee in the bonnet of the Pubs for a very long time, but believe me, he's no friend of the Dems either. He's a complete loose cannon.

So enjoy his words, and in this case I agree with him, but don't consider him an ally.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pop goes the weasel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #68
70. Sure, he's a loose cannon
But he's *our* loose cannon. That is, he represents my district, and he does a good job of it. I disagree with him on many issues, but I understand his principles and respect him for standing by them, for refusing to be bought. One of the things that upsets me most about the redistricting crisis in Texas is that part of our completely rural county would be moved out of his district and forced into a new suburban district tailor made for neo-cons.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zan_of_Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #70
72. Paul is out there but
.....

Before the war, there was probably wasn't a handful of things I agreed with Ron Paul on.

But, there he was last fall, standing up very strong against going to invade Iraq. He spoke out, while his neighbors on the Republican side of the aisle were meeting behind closed doors with my US Rep, a liberal Dem. She told a town meeting I attended that a number of Repub Representatives had serious doubts about going to war, but were too afraid to say a peep in public about it.

Ron Paul is gonna be wrong, by my accounts, on most stuff. But, his courage is undeniable, unlike most of the sheeple in Congress. And, it looks like he has been doing some serious homework.

I hope his speech gets attention.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GaryL Donating Member (413 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #70
73. "loose cannon" is somewhat of an understatement.
I live in Austin and the local boys at the hardware store hate chimpy as much as anyone. Along with the UN, NATO, etc. And they loves their guns! I get a kick out of their rantings but RP is cut from the same mold. These guys do better making conspiracy video tapes rather than as congress critters.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
indictrichardperle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #73
74. i am not offended by a libertarian
a strict constitutionalist who supports the second amendment, they are what they are, i may disagree on some things. They are seperate and different from fat-cat GOPers who are trying to screw the poor.

What i am offended by and despise, are congressmen who shake pom-poms , cheer-leading the illiegal, immoral war on Iraq....we have several in the democratic party.

The junta, neo-con pursuit of endless war, and global domination , that is THE ISSUE.

Some obscure libertarian is much less offensive, by comparison.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sophree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-11-03 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #70
88. Great DU name!
How appropriate!

Welcome to DU! :hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pop goes the weasel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-03 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #88
102. me?
Thanks. I have been around quite a while; I just don't post very often. I was wondering if anyone would get the name.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jab105 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 10:01 PM
Response to Original message
69. How can I see this!!
I can get C-SPAN online....

Can you look through the video libreary and tell me which one it is, I really want to see this!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NIGHT TRIPPER Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-11-03 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #69
78. yeah--I can't find it either
I just went to CSPAN --and have no idea where to look--
the site is huge

I really want to see it--
HELP...anyone who knows !!
Anyone who knows exactly where it is on cspan
(direct link to a page would be really cool)!!

Thanks
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-11-03 12:04 AM
Response to Original message
76. Could not believe what was being said on the House floor
Thanks for starting this thread. I thought the speech was a hallucination. He did a great job especially when I had to pick up jaw up from the floor when he talked about AEI and Perle.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-11-03 06:41 AM
Response to Original message
79. The speech is now up on the web
It is on the Liberty Committee site here:

http://www.thelibertycommittee.org/neo-conned.htm
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sickofit2 Donating Member (11 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-11-03 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #79
80. WOW
I can't believe what I just read..... I am speechless. I just hope a lot of people hear/read that. This guy is dead on of what is going on and it is scarry to hear but is finally being told.........
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-11-03 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #79
84. Thanks a million
This is indeed powerful.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sophree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-11-03 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #79
90. Wow is right!
Edited on Fri Jul-11-03 06:55 PM by Sophree
I think I'm in love. :loveya:

"I realize that all conservatives are not neoconservatives, and all neocons don’t necessarily agree on all points—which means that in spite of their tremendous influence, most members of Congress and those in the administration do not necessarily take their marching orders from AEI or Richard Perle. But to use this as a reason to ignore what neoconservative leaders believe, write about and agitate for—with amazing success I might point out—would be at our own peril. This country still allows open discourse—though less everyday—and we who disagree should push the discussion and expose those who drive our policies. It is getting more difficult to get fair and balanced discussion on the issues, because it has become routine for the hegemons to label those who object to preemptive war and domestic surveillance as traitors, unpatriotic and un-American. The uniformity of support for our current foreign policy by major and cable-news networks should concern every American. We should all be thankful for C-SPAN and the Internet."

He or his aides MUST read DU or maybe true Libertarian websites?

I'm inviting all Libertarians and true Conservatives to join us here at DU if any of Rep. Paul's message is hitting home.

We are all Americans first!!!

On edit:

Rep. Paul also condemns the Drug War and its VERY negative impact on the health of our democracy and on our civil liberties. Some DUers could take a few lessons from Ron Paul.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-11-03 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
81.  "Neo – CONNED !" Up on Ron Paul's site
Edited on Fri Jul-11-03 02:01 PM by Tinoire
HON. RON PAUL OF TEXAS
IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

July 10, 2003


Neo – CONNED !

The modern-day limited-government movement has been co-opted. The conservatives have failed in their effort to shrink the size of government. There has not been, nor will there soon be, a conservative revolution in Washington. Party control of the federal government has changed, but the inexorable growth in the size and scope of government has continued unabated. The liberal arguments for limited government in personal affairs and foreign military adventurism were never seriously considered as part of this revolution.

Since the change of the political party in charge has not made a difference, who’s really in charge? If the particular party in power makes little difference, whose policy is it that permits expanded government programs, increased spending, huge deficits, nation building and the pervasive invasion of our privacy, with fewer Fourth Amendment protections than ever before?

Someone is responsible, and it’s important that those of us who love liberty, and resent big-brother government, identify the philosophic supporters who have the most to say about the direction our country is going. If they’re wrong—and I believe they are—we need to show it, alert the American people, and offer a more positive approach to government. However, this depends on whether the American people desire to live in a free society and reject the dangerous notion that we need a strong central government to take care of us from the cradle to the grave. Do the American people really believe it’s the government’s responsibility to make us morally better and economically equal? Do we have a responsibility to police the world, while imposing our vision of good government on everyone else in the world with some form of utopian nation building? If not, and the contemporary enemies of liberty are exposed and rejected, then it behooves us to present an alternative philosophy that is morally superior and economically sound and provides a guide to world affairs to enhance peace and commerce.

One thing is certain: conservatives who worked and voted for less government in the Reagan years and welcomed the takeover of the U.S. Congress and the presidency in the 1990s and early 2000s were deceived. Soon they will realize that the goal of limited government has been dashed and that their views no longer matter.

The so-called conservative revolution of the past two decades has given us massive growth in government size, spending and regulations. Deficits are exploding and the national debt is now rising at greater than a half-trillion dollars per year. Taxes do not go down—even if we vote to lower them. They can’t, as long as spending is increased, since all spending must be paid for one way or another. Both Presidents Reagan and the elder George Bush raised taxes directly. With this administration, so far, direct taxes have been reduced—and they certainly should have been—but it means little if spending increases and deficits rise.

When taxes are not raised to accommodate higher spending, the bills must be paid by either borrowing or “printing” new money. This is one reason why we conveniently have a generous Federal Reserve chairman who is willing to accommodate the Congress. With borrowing and inflating, the “tax” is delayed and distributed in a way that makes it difficult for those paying the tax to identify it. Like future generations and those on fixed incomes who suffer from rising prices, and those who lose jobs they certainly feel the consequences of economic dislocation that this process causes. Government spending is always a “tax” burden on the American people and is never equally or fairly distributed. The poor and low-middle income workers always suffer the most from the deceitful tax of inflation and borrowing.

Many present-day conservatives, who generally argue for less government and supported the Reagan/Gingrich/Bush takeover of the federal government, are now justifiably disillusioned. Although not a monolithic group, they wanted to shrink the size of government.

Early in our history, the advocates of limited, constitutional government recognized two important principles: the rule of law was crucial, and a constitutional government must derive “just powers from the consent of the governed.” It was understood that an explicit transfer of power to government could only occur with power rightfully and naturally endowed to each individual as a God-given right. Therefore, the powers that could be transferred would be limited to the purpose of protecting liberty. Unfortunately, in the last 100 years, the defense of liberty has been fragmented and shared by various groups, with some protecting civil liberties, others economic freedom, and a small diverse group arguing for a foreign policy of nonintervention.

The philosophy of freedom has had a tough go of it, and it was hoped that the renewed interest in limited government of the past two decades would revive an interest in reconstituting the freedom philosophy into something more consistent. Those who worked for the goal of limited government power believed the rhetoric of politicians who promised smaller government. Sometimes it was just plain sloppy thinking on their part, but at other times, they fell victim to a deliberate distortion of a concise limited-government philosophy by politicians who misled many into believing that we would see a rollback on government intrusiveness.

Yes, there was always a remnant who longed for truly limited government and maintained a belief in the rule of law, combined with a deep conviction that free people and a government bound by a Constitution were the most advantageous form of government. They recognized it as the only practical way for prosperity to be spread to the maximum number of people while promoting peace and security.

That remnant—imperfect as it may have been—was heard from in the elections of 1980 and 1994 and then achieved major victories in 2000 and 2002 when professed limited-government proponents took over the White House, the Senate and the House. However, the true believers in limited government are now shunned and laughed at. At the very least, they are ignored—except when they are used by the new leaders of the right, the new conservatives now in charge of the U.S. government.

The remnant’s instincts were correct, and the politicians placated them with talk of free markets, limited government, and a humble, non-nation-building foreign policy. However, little concern for civil liberties was expressed in this recent quest for less government. Yet, for an ultimate victory of achieving freedom, this must change. Interest in personal privacy and choices has generally remained outside the concern of many conservatives—especially with the great harm done by their support of the drug war. Even though some confusion has emerged over our foreign policy since the breakdown of the Soviet empire, it’s been a net benefit in getting some conservatives back on track with a less militaristic, interventionist foreign policy. Unfortunately, after 9-ll, the cause of liberty suffered a setback. As a result, millions of Americans voted for the less-than-perfect conservative revolution because they believed in the promises of the politicians.

Now there’s mounting evidence to indicate exactly what happened to the revolution. Government is bigger than ever, and future commitments are overwhelming. Millions will soon become disenchanted with the new status quo delivered to the American people by the advocates of limited government and will find it to be just more of the old status quo. Victories for limited government have turned out to be hollow indeed.

Since the national debt is increasing at a rate greater than a half-trillion dollars per year, the debt limit was recently increased by an astounding $984 billion dollars. Total U.S. government obligations are $43 trillion, while total net worth of U.S. households is just over $44 trillion. The country is broke, but no one in Washington seems to notice or care. The philosophic and political commitment for both guns and butter—and especially the expanding American empire—must be challenged. This is crucial for our survival.

In spite of the floundering economy, Congress and the Administration continue to take on new commitments in foreign aid, education, farming, medicine, multiple efforts at nation building, and preemptive wars around the world. Already we’re entrenched in Iraq and Afghanistan, with plans to soon add new trophies to our conquest. War talk abounds as to when Syria, Iran and North Korea will be attacked.

How did all this transpire? Why did the government do it? Why haven’t the people objected? How long will it go on before something is done? Does anyone care?

Will the euphoria of grand military victories—against non-enemies—ever be mellowed? Someday, we as a legislative body must face the reality of the dire situation in which we have allowed ourselves to become enmeshed. Hopefully, it will be soon!

We got here because ideas do have consequences. Bad ideas have bad consequences, and even the best of intentions have unintended consequences. We need to know exactly what the philosophic ideas were that drove us to this point; then, hopefully, reject them and decide on another set of intellectual parameters.

There is abundant evidence exposing those who drive our foreign policy justifying preemptive war. Those who scheme are proud of the achievements in usurping control over foreign policy. These are the neoconservatives of recent fame. Granted, they are talented and achieved a political victory that all policymakers must admire. But can freedom and the republic survive this takeover? That question should concern us.

Neoconservatives are obviously in positions of influence and are well-placed throughout our government and the media. An apathetic Congress put up little resistance and abdicated its responsibilities over foreign affairs. The electorate was easily influenced to join in the patriotic fervor supporting the military adventurism advocated by the neoconservatives.

The numbers of those who still hope for truly limited government diminished and had their concerns ignored these past 22 months, during the aftermath of 9-11. Members of Congress were easily influenced to publicly support any domestic policy or foreign military adventure that was supposed to help reduce the threat of a terrorist attack. Believers in limited government were harder to find. Political money, as usual, played a role in pressing Congress into supporting almost any proposal suggested by the neocons. This process—where campaign dollars and lobbying efforts affect policy—is hardly the domain of any single political party, and unfortunately, is the way of life in Washington.

There are many reasons why government continues to grow. It would be naïve for anyone to expect otherwise. Since 9-11, protection of privacy, whether medical, personal or financial, has vanished. Free speech and the Fourth Amendment have been under constant attack. Higher welfare expenditures are endorsed by the leadership of both parties. Policing the world and nation-building issues are popular campaign targets, yet they are now standard operating procedures. There’s no sign that these programs will be slowed or reversed until either we are stopped by force overseas (which won’t be soon) or we go broke and can no longer afford these grandiose plans for a world empire (which will probably come sooner than later.)

None of this happened by accident or coincidence. Precise philosophic ideas prompted certain individuals to gain influence to implement these plans. The neoconservatives—a name they gave themselves—diligently worked their way into positions of power and influence. They documented their goals, strategy and moral justification for all they hoped to accomplish. Above all else, they were not and are not conservatives dedicated to limited, constitutional government.

Neo-conservatism has been around for decades and, strangely, has connections to past generations as far back as Machiavelli. Modern-day neo-conservatism was introduced to us in the 1960s. It entails both a detailed strategy as well as a philosophy of government. The ideas of Teddy Roosevelt, and certainly Woodrow Wilson, were quite similar to many of the views of present-day neocons. Neocon spokesman Max Boot brags that what he advocates is “hard Wilsonianism.” In many ways, there’s nothing “neo” about their views, and certainly nothing conservative. Yet they have been able to co-opt the conservative movement by advertising themselves as a new or modern form of conservatism.

More recently, the modern-day neocons have come from the far left, a group historically identified as former Trotskyites. Liberal, Christopher Hitchens, has recently officially joined the neocons, and it has been reported that he has already been to the White House as an ad hoc consultant. Many neocons now in positions of influence in Washington can trace their status back to Professor Leo Strauss of the University of Chicago. One of Strauss’ books was Thoughts on Machiavelli. This book was not a condemnation of Machiavelli’s philosophy. Paul Wolfowitz actually got his PhD under Strauss. Others closely associated with these views are Richard Perle, Eliot Abrams, Robert Kagan, and William Kristol. All are key players in designing our new strategy of preemptive war. Others include: Michael Ledeen of the American Enterprise Institute; former CIA Director James Woolsey; Bill Bennett of Book of Virtues fame; Frank Gaffney; Dick Cheney; and Donald Rumsfeld. There are just too many to mention who are philosophically or politically connected to the neocon philosophy in some varying degree.

The godfather of modern-day neo-conservatism is considered to be Irving Kristol, father of Bill Kristol, who set the stage in 1983 with his publication Reflections of a Neoconservative. In this book, Kristol also defends the traditional liberal position on welfare.

More important than the names of people affiliated with neo-conservatism are the views they adhere to. Here is a brief summary of the general understanding of what neocons believe:

They agree with Trotsky on permanent revolution, violent as well as intellectual.

They are for redrawing the map of the Middle East and are willing to use force to do so.

They believe in preemptive war to achieve desired ends.

They accept the notion that the ends justify the means—that hardball politics is a moral necessity.

They express no opposition to the welfare state.

They are not bashful about an American empire; instead they strongly endorse it.

They believe lying is necessary for the state to survive.

They believe a powerful federal government is a benefit.

They believe pertinent facts about how a society should be run should be held by the elite and withheld from those who do not have the courage to deal with it.

They believe neutrality in foreign affairs is ill advised.

They hold Leo Strauss in high esteem.

They believe imperialism, if progressive in nature, is appropriate.

Using American might to force American ideals on others is acceptable. Force should not be limited to the defense of our country.

9-11 resulted from the lack of foreign entanglements, not from too many.

They dislike and despise libertarians (therefore, the same applies to all strict constitutionalists.)

They endorse attacks on civil liberties, such as those found in the Patriot Act, as being necessary.

They unconditionally support Israel and have a close alliance with the Likud Party.


Various organizations and publications over the last 30 years have played a significant role in the rise to power of the neoconservatives. It took plenty of money and commitment to produce the intellectual arguments needed to convince the many participants in the movement of its respectability.

It is no secret—especially after the rash of research and articles written about the neocons since our invasion of Iraq—how they gained influence and what organizations were used to promote their cause. Although for decades, they agitated for their beliefs through publications like The National Review, The Weekly Standard, The Public Interest, The Wall Street Journal, Commentary, and the New York Post, their views only gained momentum in the 1990s following the first Persian Gulf War—which still has not ended even with removal of Saddam Hussein. They became convinced that a much more militant approach to resolving all the conflicts in the Middle East was an absolute necessity, and they were determined to implement that policy.

In addition to publications, multiple think tanks and projects were created to promote their agenda. A product of the Bradley Foundation, the American Enterprise Institute (AEI) led the neocon charge, but the real push for war came from the Project for a New American Century (PNAC) another organization helped by the Bradley Foundation. This occurred in 1998 and was chaired by Weekly Standard editor Bill Kristol. They urged early on for war against Iraq, but were disappointed with the Clinton administration, which never followed through with its periodic bombings. Obviously, these bombings were motivated more by Clinton’s personal and political problems than a belief in the neocon agenda.

The election of 2000 changed all that. The Defense Policy Board, chaired by Richard Perle, played no small role in coordinating the various projects and think tanks, all determined to take us into war against Iraq. It wasn’t too long before the dream of empire was brought closer to reality by the election of 2000 with Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Cheney, and Donald Rumsfeld playing key roles in this accomplishment. The plan to promote an “American greatness” imperialistic foreign policy was now a distinct possibility. Iraq offered a great opportunity to prove their long-held theories. This opportunity was a consequence of the 9-11 disaster.

The money and views of Rupert Murdoch also played a key role in promoting the neocon views, as well as rallying support by the general population, through his News Corporation, which owns Fox News Network, the New York Post, and Weekly Standard. This powerful and influential media empire did more to galvanize public support for the Iraqi invasion than one might imagine. This facilitated the Rumsfeld/Cheney policy as their plans to attack Iraq came to fruition. It would have been difficult for the neocons to usurp foreign policy from the restraints of Colin Powell’s State Department without the successful agitation of the Rupert Murdoch empire. Max Boot was satisfied, as he explained: “Neoconservatives believe in using American might to promote American ideals abroad.” This attitude is a far cry from the advice of the Founders, who advocated no entangling alliances and neutrality as the proper goal of American foreign policy.

Let there be no doubt, those in the neocon camp had been anxious to go to war against Iraq for a decade. They justified the use of force to accomplish their goals, even if it required preemptive war. If anyone doubts this assertion, they need only to read of their strategy in “A Clean Break: a New Strategy for Securing the Realm.” Although they felt morally justified in changing the government in Iraq, they knew that public support was important, and justification had to be given to pursue the war. Of course, a threat to us had to exist before the people and the Congress would go along with war. The majority of Americans became convinced of this threat, which, in actuality, never really existed. Now we have the ongoing debate over the location of weapons of mass destruction. Where was the danger? Was all this killing and spending necessary? How long will this nation building and dying go on? When will we become more concerned about the needs of our own citizens than the problems we sought in Iraq and Afghanistan? Who knows where we’ll go next—Iran, Syria or North Korea?

At the end of the Cold War, the neoconservatives realized a rearrangement of the world was occurring and that our superior economic and military power offered them a perfect opportunity to control the process of remaking the Middle East.

It was recognized that a new era was upon us, and the neocons welcomed Frances Fukuyama’s “end of history” declaration. To them, the debate was over. The West won; the Soviets lost. Old-fashioned communism was dead. Long live the new era of neoconservatism. The struggle may not be over, but the West won the intellectual fight, they reasoned. The only problem is that the neocons decided to define the philosophy of the victors. They have been amazingly successful in their efforts to control the debate over what Western values are and by what methods they will be spread throughout the world.

Communism surely lost a lot with the breakup of the Soviet Empire, but this can hardly be declared a victory for American liberty, as the Founders understood it. Neoconservatism is not the philosophy of free markets and a wise foreign policy. Instead, it represents big-government welfare at home and a program of using our military might to spread their version of American values throughout the world. Since neoconservatives dominate the way the U.S. government now operates, it behooves us all to understand their beliefs and goals. The breakup of the Soviet system may well have been an epic event but to say that the views of the neocons are the unchallenged victors and that all we need do is wait for their implementation is a capitulation to controlling the forces of history that many Americans are not yet ready to concede. There is surely no need to do so.

There is now a recognized philosophic connection between modern-day neoconservatives and Irving Kristol, Leo Strauss, and Machiavelli. This is important in understanding that today’s policies and the subsequent problems will be with us for years to come if these policies are not reversed.

Not only did Leo Strauss write favorably of Machiavelli, Michael Ledeen, a current leader of the neoconservative movement, did the same in 1999 in his book with the title, Machiavelli on Modern Leadership, and subtitled: Why Machiavelli’s iron rules are as timely and important today as five centuries ago. Ledeen is indeed an influential neocon theorist whose views get lots of attention today in Washington. His book on Machiavelli, interestingly enough, was passed out to Members of Congress attending a political strategy meeting shortly after its publication and at just about the time A Clean Break was issued.

In Ledeen’s most recent publication, The War Against the Terror Masters, he reiterates his beliefs outlined in this 1999 Machaivelli book. He specifically praises: “Creative destruction…both within our own society and abroad…(foreigners) seeing America undo traditional societies may fear us, for they do not wish to be undone.” Amazingly, Ledeen concludes: “They must attack us in order to survive, just as we must destroy them to advance our historic mission.”

If those words don’t scare you, nothing will. If they are not a clear warning, I don’t know what could be. It sounds like both sides of each disagreement in the world will be following the principle of preemptive war. The world is certainly a less safe place for it.

In Machiavelli on Modern Leadership, Ledeen praises a business leader for correctly understanding Machiavelli: “There are no absolute solutions. It all depends. What is right and what is wrong depends on what needs to be done and how.” This is a clear endorsement of situational ethics and is not coming from the traditional left. It reminds me of: “It depends on what the definition of the word ‘is’ is.”

Ledeen quotes Machiavelli approvingly on what makes a great leader. “A prince must have no other objectives or other thoughts or take anything for his craft, except war.” To Ledeen, this meant: “…the virtue of the warrior are those of great leaders of any successful organization.” Yet it’s obvious that war is not coincidental to neocon philosophy, but an integral part. The intellectuals justify it, and the politicians carry it out. There’s a precise reason to argue for war over peace according to Ledeen, for “…peace increases our peril by making discipline less urgent, encouraging some of our worst instincts, in depriving us of some of our best leaders.” Peace, he claims, is a dream and not even a pleasant one, for it would cause indolence and would undermine the power of the state. Although I concede the history of the world is a history of frequent war, to capitulate and give up even striving for peace—believing peace is not a benefit to mankind—is a frightening thought that condemns the world to perpetual war and justifies it as a benefit and necessity. These are dangerous ideas, from which no good can come.

The conflict of the ages has been between the state and the individual: central power versus liberty. The more restrained the state and the more emphasis on individual liberty, the greater has been the advancement of civilization and general prosperity. Just as man’s condition was not locked in place by the times and wars of old and improved with liberty and free markets, there’s no reason to believe a new stage for man might not be achieved by believing and working for conditions of peace. The inevitability and so-called need for preemptive war should never be intellectually justified as being a benefit. Such an attitude guarantees the backsliding of civilization. Neocons, unfortunately, claim that war is in man’s nature and that we can’t do much about it, so let’s use it to our advantage by promoting our goodness around the world through force of arms. That view is anathema to the cause of liberty and the preservation of the Constitution. If it is not loudly refuted, our future will be dire indeed.

Ledeen believes man is basically evil and cannot be left to his own desires. Therefore, he must have proper and strong leadership, just as Machiavelli argued. Only then can man achieve good, as Ledeen explains: “In order to achieve the most noble accomplishments, the leader may have to ‘enter into evil.’ This is the chilling insight that has made Machiavelli so feared, admired and challenging…we are rotten,” argues Ledeen. “It’s true that we can achieve greatness if, and only if, we are properly led.” In other words, man is so depraved that individuals are incapable of moral, ethical and spiritual greatness, and achieving excellence and virtue can only come from a powerful authoritarian leader. What depraved ideas are these to now be influencing our leaders in Washington? The question Ledeen doesn’t answer is: “Why do the political leaders not suffer from the same shortcomings and where do they obtain their monopoly on wisdom?”

Once this trust is placed in the hands of a powerful leader, this neocon argues that certain tools are permissible to use. For instance: “Lying is central to the survival of nations and to the success of great enterprises, because if our enemies can count on the reliability of everything you say, your vulnerability is enormously increased.” What about the effects of lying on one’s own people? Who cares if a leader can fool the enemy? Does calling it “strategic deception” make lying morally justifiable? Ledeen and Machiavelli argue that it does, as long as the survivability of the state is at stake. Preserving the state is their goal, even if the personal liberty of all individuals has to be suspended or canceled.

Ledeen makes it clear that war is necessary to establish national boundaries—because that’s the way it’s always been done. Who needs progress of the human race! He explains:

"Look at the map of the world: national boundaries have not been drawn by peaceful men leading lives of spiritual contemplation. National boundaries have been established by war, and national character has been shaped by struggle, most often bloody struggle."

Yes, but who is to lead the charge and decide which borders we are to fight for? What about borders 6,000 miles away unrelated to our own contiguous borders and our own national security? Stating a relative truism regarding the frequency of war throughout history should hardly be the moral justification for expanding the concept of war to settle man’s disputes. How can one call this progress?


Machiavelli, Ledeen and the neocons recognized a need to generate a religious zeal for promoting the state. This, he claims, is especially necessary when force is used to promote an agenda. It’s been true throughout history and remains true today, each side of major conflicts invokes God’s approval. Our side refers to a “crusade;” theirs to a “holy Jihad.” Too often wars boil down to their god against our God. It seems this principle is more a cynical effort to gain approval from the masses, especially those most likely to be killed for the sake of the war promoters on both sides who have power, prestige and wealth at stake.


Ledeen explains why God must always be on the side of advocates of war: “Without fear of God, no state can last long, for the dread of eternal damnation keeps men in line, causes them to honor their promises, and inspires them to risk their lives for the common good.” It seems dying for the common good has gained a higher moral status than eternal salvation of one’s soul. Ledeen adds:

"Without fear of punishment, men will not obey laws that force them to act contrary to their passions. Without fear of arms, the state cannot enforce the laws…to this end, Machiavelli wants leaders to make the state spectacular."

It’s of interest to note that some large Christian denominations have joined the neoconservatives in promoting preemptive war, while completely ignoring the Christian doctrine of a Just War. The neocons sought and openly welcomed their support.


I’d like someone to glean anything from what the Founders said or placed in the Constitution that agrees with this now-professed doctrine of a “spectacular” state promoted by those who now have so much influence on our policies here at home and abroad. Ledeen argues that this religious element, this fear of God, is needed for discipline of those who may be hesitant to sacrifice their lives for the good of the “spectacular state.”



He explains in eerie terms: “Dying for one’s country doesn’t come naturally. Modern armies, raised from the populace, must be inspired, motivated, indoctrinated. Religion is central to the military enterprise, for men are more likely to risk their lives if they believe they will be rewarded forever after for serving their country.” This is an admonition that might just as well have been given by Osama bin Laden, in rallying his troops to sacrifice their lives to kill the invading infidels, as by our intellectuals at the AEI, who greatly influence our foreign policy.



Neocons—anxious for the U.S. to use force to realign the boundaries and change regimes in the Middle East—clearly understand the benefit of a galvanizing and emotional event to rally the people to their cause. Without a special event, they realized the difficulty in selling their policy of preemptive war where our own military personnel would be killed. Whether it was the Lusitania, Pearl Harbor, the Gulf of Tonkin, or the Maine, all served their purpose in promoting a war that was sought by our leaders.



Ledeen writes of a fortuitous event (1999):

…of course, we can always get lucky. Stunning events from outside can providentially awaken the enterprise from its growing torpor, and demonstrate the need for reversal, as the devastating Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor in 1941 so effectively aroused the U.S. from its soothing dreams of permanent neutrality.



Amazingly, Ledeen calls Pearl Harbor a “lucky” event. The Project for a New American Century, as recently as September 2000, likewise, foresaw the need for “a Pearl Harbor event” that would galvanize the American people to support their ambitious plans to ensure political and economic domination of the world, while strangling any potential “rival.”



Recognizing a “need” for a Pearl Harbor event, and referring to Pearl Harbor as being “lucky” are not identical to support and knowledge of such an event, but this sympathy for a galvanizing event, as 9-11 turned out to be, was used to promote an agenda that strict constitutionalists and devotees of the Founders of this nation find appalling is indeed disturbing. After 9-11, Rumsfeld and others argued for an immediate attack on Iraq, even though it was not implicated in the attacks.



The fact that neo-conservatives ridicule those who firmly believe that U.S. interests and world peace would best be served by a policy of neutrality and avoiding foreign entanglements should not go unchallenged. Not to do so is to condone their grandiose plans for American world hegemony.



The current attention given neocons is usually done in the context of foreign policy. But there’s more to what’s going on today than just the tremendous influence the neocons have on our new policy of preemptive war with a goal of empire. Our government is now being moved by several ideas that come together in what I call “neoconism.” The foreign policy is being openly debated, even if its implications are not fully understood by many who support it. Washington is now driven by old views brought together in a new package.



We know those who lead us—both in the administration and in Congress—show no appetite to challenge the tax or monetary systems that do so much damage to our economy. The IRS and the Federal Reserve are off limits for criticism or reform. There’s no resistance to spending, either domestic or foreign. Debt is not seen as a problem. The supply-siders won on this issue, and now many conservatives readily endorse deficit spending.



There’s no serious opposition to the expanding welfare state, with rapid growth of the education, agriculture and medical-care bureaucracy. Support for labor unions and protectionism are not uncommon. Civil liberties are easily sacrificed in the post 9-11 atmosphere prevailing in Washington. Privacy issues are of little concern, except for a few members of Congress. Foreign aid and internationalism—in spite of some healthy criticism of the UN and growing concerns for our national sovereignty—are championed on both sides of the aisle. Lip service is given to the free market and free trade, yet the entire economy is run by special-interest legislation favoring big business, big labor and, especially, big money.



Instead of the “end of history,” we are now experiencing the end of a vocal limited-government movement in our nation’s capital. While most conservatives no longer defend balanced budgets and reduced spending, most liberals have grown lazy in defending civil liberties and now are approving wars that we initiate. The so-called “third way” has arrived and, sadly, it has taken the worst of what the conservatives and liberals have to offer. The people are less well off for it, while liberty languishes as a result.



Neocons enthusiastically embrace the Department of Education and national testing. Both parties overwhelmingly support the huge commitment to a new prescription drug program. Their devotion to the new approach called “compassionate conservatism” has lured many conservatives into supporting programs for expanding the federal role in welfare and in church charities. The faith-based initiative is a neocon project, yet it only repackages and expands the liberal notion of welfare. The intellectuals who promoted these initiatives were neocons, but there’s nothing conservative about expanding the federal government’s role in welfare.



The supply-siders’ policy of low-marginal tax rates has been incorporated into neoconism, as well as their support for easy money and generous monetary inflation. Neoconservatives are disinterested in the gold standard and even ignore the supply-siders’ argument for a phony gold standard.



Is it any wonder that federal government spending is growing at a rate faster than in any time in the past 35 years?



Power, politics and privilege prevail over the rule of law, liberty, justice and peace. But it does not need to be that way. Neoconism has brought together many old ideas about how government should rule the people. It may have modernized its appeal and packaging, but authoritarian rule is authoritarian rule, regardless of the humanitarian overtones. A solution can only come after the current ideology driving our government policies is replaced with a more positive one. In a historical context, liberty is a modern idea and must once again regain the high moral ground for civilization to advance. Restating the old justifications for war, people control and a benevolent state will not suffice. It cannot eliminate the shortcomings that always occur when the state assumes authority over others and when the will of one nation is forced on another—whether or not it is done with good intentions.



I realize that all conservatives are not neoconservatives, and all neocons don’t necessarily agree on all points—which means that in spite of their tremendous influence, most Members of Congress and those in the administration do not necessarily take their marching orders from the AEI or Richard Perle. But to use this as a reason to ignore what neoconservative leaders believe, write about it and agitate for—with amazing success I might point out—would be at our own peril. This country still allows open discourse—though less everyday—and we who disagree should push the discussion and expose those who drive our policies. It is getting more difficult to get fair and balanced discussion on the issues, because it has become routine for the hegemons to label those who object to preemptive war and domestic surveillance as traitors, unpatriotic and un-American. The uniformity of support for our current foreign policy by major and cable-news networks should concern every American. We should all be thankful for CSPAN and the internet.



Michael Ledeen and other neoconservatives are already lobbying for war against Iran. Ledeen is pretty nasty to those who call for a calmer, reasoned approach by calling those who are not ready for war “cowards and appeasers of tyrants.” Because some urge a less militaristic approach to dealing with Iran, he claims they are betraying America’s best “traditions.” I wonder where he learned early American history! It’s obvious that Ledeen doesn’t consider the Founders and the Constitution part of our best traditions. We were hardly encouraged by the American revolutionaries to pursue an American empire. We were, however, urged to keep the Republic they so painstakingly designed.



If the neoconservatives retain control of the conservative, limited-government movement in Washington, the ideas, once championed by conservatives, of limiting the size and scope of government will be a long-forgotten dream.



The believers in liberty ought not deceive themselves. Who should be satisfied? Certainly not conservatives, for there is no conservative movement left. How could liberals be satisfied? They are pleased with the centralization of education and medical programs in Washington and support many of the administration’s proposals. But none should be pleased with the steady attack on the civil liberties of all American citizens and the now-accepted consensus that preemptive war—for almost any reason—is an acceptable policy for dealing with all the conflicts and problems of the world.



In spite of the deteriorating conditions in Washington—with loss of personal liberty, a weak economy, exploding deficits, and perpetual war, followed by nation building—there are still quite a number of us who would relish the opportunity to improve things, in one way or another. Certainly, a growing number of frustrated Americans, from both the right and the left, are getting anxious to see this Congress do a better job. But first, Congress must stop doing a bad job.



We’re at the point where we need a call to arms, both here in Washington and across the country. I’m not talking about firearms. Those of us who care need to raise both arms and face our palms out and begin waving and shouting: Stop! Enough is enough! It should include liberals, conservatives and independents. We’re all getting a bum rap from politicians who are pushed by polls and controlled by special-interest money.



One thing is certain, no matter how morally justified the programs and policies seem, the ability to finance all the guns and butter being promised is limited, and those limits are becoming more apparent every day.



Spending, borrowing and printing money cannot be the road to prosperity. It hasn’t worked in Japan, and it isn’t working here either. As a matter of fact, it’s never worked anytime throughout history. A point is always reached where government planning, spending and inflation run out of steam. Instead of these old tools reviving an economy, as they do in the early stages of economic interventionism, they eventually become the problem. Both sides of the political spectrum must one day realize that limitless government intrusion in the economy, in our personal lives and in the affairs of other nations cannot serve the best interests of America. This is not a conservative problem, nor is it a liberal problem—it’s a government intrusion problem that comes from both groups, albeit for different reasons. The problems emanate from both camps that champion different programs for different reasons. The solution will come when both groups realize that it’s not merely a single-party problem, or just a liberal or just a conservative problem.



Once enough of us decide we’ve had enough of all these so-called good things that the government is always promising—or more likely, when the country is broke and the government is unable to fulfill its promises to the people—we can start a serious discussion on the proper role for government in a free society. Unfortunately, it will be some time before Congress gets the message that the people are demanding true reform. This requires that those responsible for today’s problems are exposed and their philosophy of pervasive government intrusion is rejected.



Let it not be said that no one cared, that no one objected once it’s realized that our liberties and wealth are in jeopardy. A few have, and others will continue to do so, but too many—both in and out of government—close their eyes to the issue of personal liberty and ignore the fact that endless borrowing to finance endless demands cannot be sustained. True prosperity can only come from a healthy economy and sound money. That can only be achieved in a free society.


http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2003/cr071003.htm
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-11-03 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
82. A Neo-Con MUST READ article
Edited on Fri Jul-11-03 02:41 PM by Tinoire
From a respected Israeli paper. The entire article is excellent. I hated snipping it.
<snip>

In the course of the past year, a new belief has emerged in the town: the belief in war against Iraq. That ardent faith was disseminated by a small group of 25 or 30 neoconservatives, almost all of them Jewish, almost all of them intellectuals (a partial list: Richard Perle, Paul Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith, William Kristol, Eliot Abrams, Charles Krauthammer), people who are mutual friends and cultivate one another and are convinced that political ideas are a major driving force of history. They believe that the right political idea entails a fusion of morality and force, human rights and grit. The philosophical underpinnings of the Washington neoconservatives are the writings of Machiavelli, Hobbes and Edmund Burke. They also admire Winston Churchill and the policy pursued by Ronald Reagan. They tend to read reality in terms of the failure of the 1930s (Munich) versus the success of the 1980s (the fall of the Berlin Wall).

Are they wrong? Have they committed an act of folly in leading Washington to Baghdad? They don't think so. They continue to cling to their belief. They are still pretending that everything is more or less fine. That things will work out. Occasionally, though, they seem to break out in a cold sweat. This is no longer an academic exercise, one of them says, we are responsible for what is happening. The ideas we put forward are now affecting the lives of millions of people. So there are moments when you're scared. You say, Hell, we came to help, but maybe we made a mistake.

<snip>
((William Kristol))

Kristol is pleasant-looking, of average height, in his late forties. In the past 18 months he has used his position as editor of the right-wing Weekly Standard and his status as one of the leaders of the neoconservative circle in Washington to induce the White House to do battle against Saddam Hussein. Because Kristol is believed to exercise considerable influence on the president, Vice President Richard Cheney and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, he is also perceived as having been instrumental in getting Washington to launch this all-out campaign against Baghdad. Sitting behind the stacks of books that cover his desk at the offices of the Weekly Standard in Northwest Washington, he tries to convince me that he is not worried. It is simply inconceivable to him that America will not win. In that event, the consequences would be catastrophic. No one wants to think seriously about that possibility.

<snip>

((Charles Krauthammer))

And what if the experiment fails? What if America is defeated?

This war will enhance the place of America in the world for the coming generation, Krauthammer says. Its outcome will shape the world for the next 25 years. There are three possibilities. If the United States wins quickly and without a bloodbath, it will be a colossus that will dictate the world order. If the victory is slow and contaminated, it will be impossible to go on to other Arab states after Iraq. It will stop there. But if America is beaten, the consequences will be catastrophic. Its deterrent capability will be weakened, its friends will abandon it and it will become insular. Extreme instability will be engendered in the Middle East.

You don't really want to think about what will happen, Krauthammer says looking me straight in the eye. But just because that's so, I am positive we will not lose. Because the administration understands the implications. The president understands that everything is riding on this. So he will throw everything we've got into this. He will do everything that has to be done. George W. Bush will not let America lose.


<snip>

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=280279&sw=neocon



((originally posted here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=546&mesg_id=546&page=2))
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-11-03 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
83. Today's Richard Perle Scandal

<snip>

The minister, Effi Eitam of the National Religious Party, slammed Bush's Middle East "road map" Monday in a talk to the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations, declaring that the president's plan was "worse than the Oslo accords." According to attendees, Eitam told the 30 communal leaders present that Israel could never accept a Palestinian state, a key element in Bush's "vision" for the Middle East.

Moreover, attendees said, Eitam declared that he had been encouraged to fight the road map by no less a figure than Richard Perle, the former chairman of the Defense Policy Board, a Pentagon advisory panel.

((note: this is the same Perle who derailed Clinton's peace talks
http://www.buzzflash.com/editorial/03/06/02.html
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2002/09/05/perle/index1.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Print/0,3858,4039958,00.html))

<snip>

Eitam reportedly told the Jewish leadership group that he had received a message from Perle urging Israel to reject the road map and arguing that Jerusalem should not negotiate with terrorists, just as the United States refused to negotiate with Saddam Hussein or Osama bin Laden.


<snip>

During his turn at the conference's podium, according to several sources in attendance, Eitam said that Israel could never accept a Palestinian state in the West Bank, and that the Palestinians should therefore push for a different solution. Eitam reiterated his longstanding proposal for a Palestinian state to be created in Jordan and the Sinai desert.

<snip>

By ORI NIR FORWARD STAFF

http://www.forward.com/issues/2003/03.07.11/news3.html

About Forward: THE FORWARD
is a legendary name in American journalism and a revered institution in American Jewish life. Launched as a Yiddish-language daily newspaper on April 22, 1897, the Forward entered the din of New York's immigrant press as a defender of trade unionism and moderate, democratic socialism. The Jewish Daily Forward quickly rose above the crowd, however; under the leadership of its founding editor, the crustily independent Abraham Cahan, the Forward came to be known as the voice of the Jewish immigrant and the conscience of the ghetto. It fought for social justice, helped generations of immigrants to enter American life, broke some of the most significant news stories of the century, and was among the nation's most eloquent defenders of democracy and Jewish rights.

http://www.forward.com/history.html


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=7897&mesg_id=7897&page=2
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Aaron Donating Member (489 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-11-03 02:33 PM
Response to Original message
85. Free Republic doesn't seem to like this speech by Paul at all
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sophree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-11-03 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #85
93. They wouldn't
Brainwashed FAUX CONSERVATIVES.

"Free" Republic. HA! What a f*cking joke. They wouldn't know freedom if it bit them on their collective asses.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-03 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #85
99. Au contraire, while most of them don't, a few of them
are adamantly for it--but those are libertarian types. The thread is an intriguing read.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
goobergunch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-11-03 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
86. Ron Paul (L-TX)...
is definitely one of the more principled members of Congress. I disagree with him on many issues, but he's definitely right on here.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Frangible Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-11-03 06:29 PM
Response to Original message
91. I <3 Ron Paul
He's a true libertarian and an honest man of his word. I don't agree with him on everything (nor do I agree with liberatrians on everything) but admire his stance here.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Norbert Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-11-03 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
94. This is one of his most famour writings on the eve of the 9/11 anniv.
QUESTIONS THAT WON'T BE ASKED ABOUT IRAQ


Soon we hope to have hearings on the pending war with Iraq. I am concerned there are some questions that won’t be asked- and maybe will not even be allowed to be asked. Here are some questions I would like answered by those who are urging us to start this war.

1. Is it not true that the reason we did not bomb the Soviet Union at the height of the Cold War was because we knew they could retaliate?

2. Is it not also true that we are willing to bomb Iraq now because we know it cannot retaliate- which just confirms that there is no real threat?

3. Is it not true that those who argue that even with inspections we cannot be sure that Hussein might be hiding weapons, at the same time imply that we can be more sure that weapons exist in the absence of inspections?

4. Is it not true that the UN’s International Atomic Energy Agency was able to complete its yearly verification mission to Iraq just this year with Iraqi cooperation?

5. Is it not true that the intelligence community has been unable to develop a case tying Iraq to global terrorism at all, much less the attacks on the United States last year? Does anyone remember that 15 of the 19 hijackers came from Saudi Arabia and that none came from Iraq?

6. Was former CIA counter-terrorism chief Vincent Cannistraro wrong when he recently said there is no confirmed evidence of Iraq’s links to terrorism?

7. Is it not true that the CIA has concluded there is no evidence that a Prague meeting between 9/11 hijacker Atta and Iraqi intelligence took place?

8. Is it not true that northern Iraq, where the administration claimed al-Qaeda were hiding out, is in the control of our "allies," the Kurds?

9. Is it not true that the vast majority of al-Qaeda leaders who escaped appear to have safely made their way to Pakistan, another of our so-called allies?

...


There is 35 such questions and better ones than I've posted too.

http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2002/cr091002.htm
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BuckeFushe Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-11-03 07:51 PM
Response to Original message
96. I posted the entire spech with commentary on the Hannity site today
And only ONE wackjob who is trying his best to completely discredit Ron Paul has responded. The Rethugs will not touch this speech or Ron Paul because it is so against their beliefs that they cannot risk this speedbump growing within the Congress. Bet "Toxic" Tom Delay is in a strait jacket right now he's so angry.

The one paragraph from the speech which rings true:

I realize that all conservatives are not neoconservatives, and all neocons don’t necessarily agree on all points—which means that in spite of their tremendous influence, most Members of Congress and those in the administration do not necessarily take their marching orders from the AEI or Richard Perle. But to use this as a reason to ignore what neoconservative leaders believe, write about it and agitate for—with amazing success I might point out—would be at our own peril. This country still allows open discourse—though less everyday—and we who disagree should push the discussion and expose those who drive our policies. It is getting more difficult to get fair and balanced discussion on the issues, because it has become routine for the hegemons to label those who object to preemptive war and domestic surveillance as traitors, unpatriotic and un-American. The uniformity of support for our current foreign policy by major and cable-news networks should concern every American. We should all be thankful for CSPAN and the internet.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tracer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-03 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
101. Unfortunately, I missed this speech, but ...
... this is ABSOLUTELY THE FIRST TIME that I've ever even HEARD of anyone on television mention PNAC or the Neocon agenda.

I hope that his speech gets some attention!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Sat May 04th 2024, 04:37 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Latest Breaking News Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC