Chavez WINS!!!! 58% CNN Breaking news (Chavez Claims Victory)!!!!

[seventhson]

saw it on the scroll - no live coverage yet!!!! (CNN Headline news)


YeESESESESESESSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/americas/08/16/venezuela.recall/index.html


OIL PRICES COMING DOWN TOO!!!

(altho in a not-so-funny way this helps Bush)

[IndianaGreen]

1. The Fascist opposition is claiming fraud (The Guardian)

While everyone seems to admit that Chavez won by a landslide, the decadent Venezuelan elites won't give up without a fight, just as Bush/Cheney won't give up power in the US.

From The Guardian:

1.15pm update

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chávez claims victory in Venezuela vote

Agencies
Monday August 16, 2004


Mr Chávez is popular with the poor, but his redirection of oil revenues towards social policies has angered the middle classes, oil producers and some unions.

Opposition leaders refused to accept the results and demanded a manual recount, claiming their own exit polls showed almost 60% of citizens voted to oust Mr Chávez.

"We categorically and absolutely reject these results," said Henry Ramos Allup, leader of the Democratic Coordinator coalition of opposition parties. "The national elections council has committed a gigantic fraud."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1284125,00.html

[asthmaticeog]

3. The fraud accusations

were scripted as soon as the election date was announced. Also, I read somewhere (no link, sorry) that the organization doing these exit polls that "showed" that Chavez lost was the same group that ran the failed coup.

[geek tragedy]

8. Did you see Citizen Kane? n/t

[asthmaticeog]

11. I did, a looooong time ago.

I'm not catching the refence. Elaborate? What have I forgotten?

[geek tragedy]

15. When Kane ran for office, he had his newspaper print two editions:

A) Kane wins!

B) Fraud at the polls!

[asthmaticeog]

19. Riiiiight! Thanks. n/t

[seventhson]

4. Gee - who would have expected THAT???? This is Bush-Spookness

Let's rtejoice in the moment man,

THIS was a HUGE victory for humanity!

[Merlin]

5. "Angered the middle classes" my ass! He's angered the upper class.

There are no "middle classes." That's the whole fucking problem.

Chavez will now have to put a regiment around his residence because the next step will no doubt be another coup attempt. The rich do not give up easily, if ever.

His best bet is to announce a massive land redistribution right now while he's still got the clout to make it stick.

[On the Road]

24. As Much as I Support a Chavez Victory

He has alienated a lot of ordinary people -- shopkeepers, professionals, and taxi drivers. Some of them may have just listened to the right-wing media. Some may see government programs as patronage or undeserved handouts to the poor.

Chavez still has the support of the lower classes and rural areas. But for Chavez to solidify his position, he has to gain more support from the middle classes without watering down his populism too much. This is the fine line he has to walk.

[Union Thug]

2. GO GO HUGO...

Socialism resurgent! You da man! Show those bush boys and thier south of the border proxies the door!

[IndianaGreen]

6. If Chavez were truly Red, which he is not, he wouldn't put up with this...

The major reason the democratically elected Jacobo Arbenz was toppled in Guatemala, in addition to the CIA coup, was that he was too nice and accommodating to the elites. The one lesson of the Cuban Revolution is to never give a break to the enemies of the people.

Chavez should have jailed and tried for treason all of those that were part of the US-instigated coup against him. In Cuba they would have been shot!

[Zynx]

9. You're saying the left needs to be authoritarian? WTF?

What's the matter with you? Your kind of extreme thinking plays right into the Right's hands.

[IndianaGreen]

12. Those that subvert the democratic process are criminals

What would you do if you were to find out that there was a coup to topple a Democratic President and that a Middle Eastern nation was behind it? Would you jail and prosecute these people, or would you let them go?

[Zynx]

25. I would jail them, not shoot them. There is a big difference.

You were also speaking as though Chavez needed to crack down on the elites in general. That is a horrible idea. Firstly, that is the wrong way of doing things. If you want wealth redistribution, do it through progressive taxation, not murder. Secondly, if he did, he would be pointed to by those on the right in this country as yet another example of left-wing authoritarianism.

[IndianaGreen]

29. You need to re-read what I wrote

you have totally misconstrued what I said and went off a tangent of your own.

[Zynx]

30. Here's what you wrote:

"The major reason the democratically elected Jacobo Arbenz was toppled in Guatemala, in addition to the CIA coup, was that he was too nice and accommodating to the elites. The one lesson of the Cuban Revolution is to never give a break to the enemies of the people."

What you are implying here is that Chavez needs to become authoritarian like Castro and not suffer the same fate as democrats like Arbenz, Goulart, and Allende.

Also:

"Chavez should have jailed and tried for treason all of those that were part of the US-instigated coup against him. In Cuba they would have been shot!"

You are implying that Chavez should behave more like Castro. If he did, he would just be another left-wing thug(though most authoritarians have been right-wing) in the eyes of the world rather than a democratically elected leader who respects human rights.

[IndianaGreen]

35. As one who has been to Cuba

the only people that were ever executed were the Batista people that had killed innocent peasants and workers, and more recently, people that were involved in terrorist activities.

It was done by the law, after a trial in which they had defense attorneys!

We have similar laws in this country that impose the severest penalties for people involved in terrorism and narco-trafficking.

What happened in Guatemala and in Venezuela is that the elites involved in criminal activities were given a pass instead of being prosecuted, as they should have.

[Dancing_Dave]

31. Where's the "What If"?

Didn't that already happen?

[Dhalgren]

18. No, what plays "right into the right's hand"

is giving the wealthy class the bennefit of the doubt. Bonnie and Clyde had to be hunted down and killed, because they would not stop robbing. The Branch Davidians had to be taken out because they would not bend to the will of the government. There are numerous examples of the government killing and otherwise crushing the poor and under calss because of an "anti-government" stance of one kind or another. All that IG is saying is that if the government is "of the people" and certain elements in the society will not bend to the government, then they should be treated in the same way as the poor would be in similar circumstances.

[Zynx]

22. If you start shooting people for being "enemies of the people" you are

going down a slippery path towards authoritarianism. Actually, you are already there. All must be solved through the liberal democratic system if tragedy is to be averted. If you want to see more authoritarian governments in the world, you are a sick person.

[IndianaGreen]

26. The death penalty is in the US Constitution for treason

as it is in Cuban law for terrorism and treason.

While I don't support the death penalty, I would not shirk in asking for it if I were a prosecutor in a capital case.

Anyway, Chavez's mistake is that his religious beliefs caused him to forgive those that tried to topple him instead of following the law and have them prosecuted.

I gather you haven't bothered to research what happened in Guatemala to "nice guy" Jacobo Arbenz. His accommodation to the elites resulted in his being overthrown in a coup and in the deaths of thousands of innocent people.

That's the choice we face, prosecute the rightwing for their treasonous activities, or let them go until the day they win and many innocent people are butchered, as they were by Pinochet in Chile.

[seventhson]

32. Do NOT emulate the oppressors - you then become them

Yes he should smartly deal with the treasonous


and he should be firm in his defense of his democracy.

But he also has to be smart and smooth. He has a HUGE opposition and his life is already in the balance.

He does NOT need to do a purge or Stalin like communist spectacle of oppression.

He needs to use new ideas to protect the people and stay alive in the process.

[Zynx]

34. Well said.

If he became authoritarian like Stalin, Mao, or Mugabe, he would just be another two-bit thug and a failure.

[Nocturnes]

14. Bad Idea

This really would be just what the right wanted. Martyrs. Just because it happens here does not mean it is a good thing

[IndianaGreen]

16. Prosecuting people for breaking the law is not making them martyrs

Most of the violence and killings in Venezuela can be directly attributed to the rightwing. Since when are they exempt from the law?

[mountebank]

7. My favorite paragraph from NY Times article this morning.

"The government also spent handsomely on a sophisticated campaign that scared Venezuelans into believing a "yes" vote for the recall would be a vote for American imperialism and the corrupt political parties that had ruled this country in the past."

They don't even say "the aim of which seemed to be to scare" or "which might have scared."

Well, we can only assume the NY Times has done some heavy polling on this, but is not releasing the results..... Right?

[On the Road]

28. I Have to Agree with The NYT

Venezuela is flooded with pro-Chavez signs, wall murals, etc. Many of them refer to US imperialism. But in addition to government money, the "Vote No" side had the energy, too.

In some ways, it's like the presidential election here. Once the people are energized and turn out, they win. The two-day coup assured that no one was indifferent this time.

[mountebank]

33. I don't disagree with it, but it belongs on the opinion page. n/t

[Mr.Green93]

10. a victory for Progressives everywhere

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

13. Chávez Wins!!! Chávez Wins!!! Chávez Wins!!!

:party: :bounce: :party: :bounce: :party: :bounce: :party: :bounce:

[found object]

17. Finally some good news in a big way!

Thank you seventhson for posting this -- made my morning!

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

20. Let the commie - thug comments begin in 5, 4, 3............n/t

[shadu]

21. Viva Chavez!

This is great news.

[Joanne98]

23. From Narco News Blog ( REVOLT OF THE SPOILED BRATS)

The Revolt of the Spoiled Brats continues (3.50 / 2) (#3)
by Jules Siegel on Mon Aug 16th, 2004 at 09:48:14 AM EST
(User Info) http://www.newsroom-l.net
They never really wanted the referendum in the first place because they knew they didn't have the votes. They just wanted to make noise. Now that the results are in, they want to keep making noise. They will never concede defeat.
It's like those ridiculous exchanges you get into with right wingers when you challenge their facts. They never even acknowledge that you are challenging their facts. They shift ground to some other issue. When you keep trying to get them back to the facts they finally blow up and call you names and then block your email.

Their whole lives are devoted to domination of others in a hierarchy of master-slave relationships. They pay for their right to be the master to those below by being slaves to those above. The only fact involved is power.

If a slave challenges a master, the slave is terminated, whether emotionally (in the case of relatives), financially (relatives and employees) or physically (suppresion by beating, torture, imprisonment or exile, and death).


That's the next lesson that the Spoiled Brats have to learn. Unfortunately, the Bush administration is going to continue financing them to never give up. I've read some very unfair and mean statements about Jimmy Carter and John F. Kerry. While it's true that they are both members in good standing of the American power elite, I tend to believe that they have learned the lessons of Castro Cuba and will seek accomodation rather than confrontation with Chávez because they are practical politicians as opposed to religious ideologues expecting to be raptured up as soon as they can get all their slaves in line.

--
JULES SIEGEL Apdo. 1764 77501-Cancun MX
http://www.madlaughter.com


Boy this guy has the freepers down pat....."expecting to be raptured up as soon as they can get all their slaves in line" LOL

[Dancing_Dave]

27. AWESOME!!!

The Bush-Cheney Junta's foreign policy initiatives are coming apart all over the planet! :toast:

[Moderator]

36. Duplicate

Please continue here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=753911&mesg_id=753911