Girl with digestive disorder denied Communion

[liberalpragmatist]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5762478/

Girl with digestive disorder denied Communion:
8-year-old cannot consume wheat wafers

Updated: 4:39 p.m. ET Aug. 19, 2004

An 8-year-old girl who suffers from a rare digestive disorder and cannot eat wheat has had her first Holy Communion declared invalid because the wafer contained no wheat, violating Roman Catholic doctrine.

Now, Haley Waldman’s mother is pushing the Diocese of Trenton and the Vatican to make an exception, saying the girl’s condition should not exclude her from the sacrament, which commemorates the Last Supper of Jesus Christ before his crucifixion. The mother believes a rice Communion wafer would suffice.

“It’s just not a viable option. How does it corrupt the tradition of the Last Supper? It’s just rice versus wheat,” said Elizabeth Pelly-Waldman.

Church doctrine holds that Communion wafers, like the bread served at the Last Supper, must have at least some unleavened wheat. Church leaders are reluctant to change anything about the sacrament.

“This is not an issue to be determined at the diocesan or parish level, but has already been decided for the Roman Catholic Church throughout the world by Vatican authority,” Trenton Bishop John M. Smith said in a statement last week...

[jeff30997]

1. Soooo stupid...

[LittleApple81]

2. Idiots. Christ would allow his flesh to be represented by whatever

is least damaging for his lambs.

[arcos]

3. Will the Catholic Church ever grow a brain??

jeez... :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[rfkrocks]

4. didn't Jesus say

"suffer the children to come unto me...unless you are to be like these little ones you will not enter the Kingdom of God" But Jesus has very little to do with this absurd doctrine

[SidDithers]

5. Actually not that rare...

My daughter has celiac disease, it affects between 1 in 100 and 1 in 200 North Americans.

My wife just about went off the deep end when I told her about this, I'm glad we're not Catholic.

There was a long thread about it on the weekend:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=748024

Sid

[calico1]

6. Show's people's stupidity and ignorance.

People just don't understand that if you can't eat wheat, it is poison to your body. A "little bit" can do a lot of damage. You cannot make exceptions. I'm sure they think the little girl and her mother are being selfish!

[papau]

7. Not LBN - prior threads noted that Roman Catholic Holy Communion

need not include the wafer. If she is allowed the wine she has completed her first Holy Communion.

If she wants both the wafer and the wine she needs to start attending a different Catholic denomination - namely the Episcopal Catholic Church - as they permit Soy wafers in most parishes.

If she is willing to give up the Catholic side of her religion, then the Methodist with their grape juice is available (actually grape juice rather than wine is permitted in the Catholic Tradition - both Roman and Episcopal - I am not sure of Orthodox - it is just that I have never seen it done).

[tekriter]

10. Actually grape juice is NOT a substitute to the Catholic church...

according to my readings the last couple of days about this New Jersey case.

The article I read said that the wine has to be fermented from grapes, and must contain at least a trace of alcohol.

So, according to the Catholic morons, an 8-yr old cannot be holy if she eats a rice wafer, but if she takes the wine with alcohol she's OK.

Man, am I glad I got away from those loons.

[SidDithers]

12. Loons is right...

Obviously, they're entitled to enforce whatever rules want. And I'm entitled to call them the intolerant, inflexible dinosaurs that they are.

Sid

[tekriter]

18. Sid, is that you?

Is this going to be a subject of a Dithers' Bitz?

[SidDithers]

20. Hehe..

Nah, I'm just a dad, who's overprotective of his daughter :)

:toast:

Sid

[tekriter]

19. Maybe you're a different Sid Dithers...

the one I'm thinking of is from somewhere else...

[SidDithers]

21. Must be :) nt

Sid

[papau]

32. You're correct - I was wrong - Roman Canon Law requires wine

But the communion is complete with just the wine.

Roman Catholic Church Code of Canon Law states that hosts must be made of wheat, and therefore, a rice wafer isn't permissible. The Catholic Church's Code of Canon Law permits priests to set aside a special wine chalice exclusively for worshippers following wheat- or gluten-free diets. This eliminates the possibility of the hosts accidentally contaminating the wine. The Canon Law also offers parishioners the alternative of drinking only wine or consuming low-gluten wafers.

Wheat- and gluten-free hosts are approved by the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America and the Episcopal Church.

The Lutheran church's policy is "For pressing reasons of health ... congregations might decide to place small amounts of non-wheat bread or non-alcoholic wine or grape juice on the altar. Such pastoral and congregational decisions are delicate and must honor both the tradition of the Church and the people of each local assembly." Similarly, the Episcopal Church allows congregations to offer non-wheat wafers if someone in the church community makes such a request.

[PATRICK]

50. I know alcoholic priests have

a dispensation to use unfermented wine. Between absurd legalism denounced by Christ and not crossing line to meaningless flippant choices. They have forgotten the guiding principles for the sake of agricultural symbolism accidental to the Middle East circa 30 AD.

This isn't hard unless you are not a spiritual leader but an organizational hairsplitter.

[wellstone dem]

8. One step closer

to another schism with Rome, one step closer to an American Catholic Church.

[Warpy]

9. time for another person to leave the stupidly rigid

hierarchy of Rome and head for an Episcopalian church. Unbudened by a hierarchy with the weight of infallibility upon them, they can afford to be much more reasonable in such matters.

[Swamp Rat]

28. Yeah, and Episcopalians have better taste in music too.

The ONLY church to hold great classical/folk/gospel/blues/jazz concerts here in New Orleans is the Trinity Episcopal Church. I've also had crawfish and beer after mass... I personally don't believe in sky ghosts, but I DO appreciate good food and music.

[ClintonTyree]

11. I saw this................

on one of the Cable News (?) Shows this morning. I couldn't believe it. I never had a very high opinion of the Catholic Church. This just puts them on the lowest rung on the religion ladder as far as I'm concerned. They rank right there with snake handlers and Jim Jones follwers as far as I'm concerned.

[DemBones DemBones]

14. Ah, tolerance of others' beliefs is such a wonderful thing.

Too bad this thread is full of shit posted by intolerant ignoramuses.

[SidDithers]

15. Ignorant, we're not...

This story is about the conflict between the beliefs of the Catholic Church, and the health of a child with celiac disease. I have a child with celiac, I think i'm entitled to an opinion.

Whining about intolerance in a thread dealing with inflexibility is pretty ironic, don't you think?

[DemBones DemBones]

38. The only thing ironic about this thread is that

it features a number of kneejerk bigoted responses from people who believe themselves to be tolerant liberals.

I understand celiac disease -- not from the experience of having a child with the disease, certainly -- but I do understand intellectually what extreme precautions have to be taken to protect a celiac sufferer from gluten. And I'm very concerned about this young girl, and anyone else unable to receive Communion due to celiac disease. I've known about the problem faced by Catholics with celiac disease for years. I also know that people with celiac disease are allowed gluten-free wafers in some areas despite the "official policy." I sometimes wonder if some of the American hierarchy are "more Catholic than the pope," i.e., more inflexible than necessary.

I also understand that the Catholic Church doesn't change quickly and that's part of its strength. Look how long it has lasted, and it's not done yet, despite its opponents' hopes.

Obviously celiac disease was not a known problem in the early days of Christianity or this rule would have created problems then and probably been altered in some way. (I would suspect that celiac disease probably wasn't known then because anyone who had the disease died very young, too young to make receiving Communion an issue.)

[Solon]

46. Bigoted?

I grew up in the Church, from First Communion to Confirmation, now I follow a different path, but both my parents are Catholic, my sister is ambiguous. I have yet to hear a truly bigoted remark, even the one about the music was dead on accurate :). A truly bigoted remark would be saying: "All Catholics are a bunch of Mary Worshiping Anti-Christians, etc. etc. etc." Most statements to that effect are usually made by fundamentalists and other bigoted Protestants. To claim the criticisms here as bigotry is a misuse of the term, its like calling all of us, because of our disagreements against the Republican Party, bigots against Repubs, which is not the case. I have yet to hear about any generalization of all Catholics on this thread, only criticism of the Church Hierarchy, which I think is well deserved.

For example, my mother, the Good Catholic, HATES the POPE with a passion even I cannot imagine. She calls him the stupid old fart who won't die, something even I cannot imagine saying. Is she a Bigot?

[SidDithers]

48. Thank you for a reasoned, and polite, response

My frustration is that I know what this girl goes through. When she goes to a classmates birthday party, she can't have pizza and birthday cake like all the other kids. When she plays soccer, she has to bring her own snacks, because some popsicles are OK and some aren't, and she's never sure if the oranges and watermelon brought by the other parents weren't contaminated by crumbs on the counter when they were sliced. And her parents, like my wife and I, get hyper-sensitive when we see an organization, which should represent love and tolerance, place more obstacles in her path.

If the church won't change to help her, I hope that she and her family will find comfort somewhere else.

Peace.

Sid


Edit for spelling

[tekriter]

16. So, I guess you're OK with the church's decision?

My opinions of the catholic church are not done from a vacuum or from ignorance, I was raised catholic and only in the last few years broke away completely. I have about 45 years of catholic adherence under my belt, so I do feel I have the right and the knowledge to speak.

This New Jersey situation is one of the most boneheaded things I've heard come out of the church. Even with all the child molestation scandals here you have an 8 yr old kid who WANTS TO BELONG to the church. She wants to receive sacraments. Her class was getting their first communion. Because of a danger to her health she should not eat wheat.

The church's answer: Tough shit, kid. If you want to drink some wine, well that's OK but not a rice wafer. Jesus had wheat bread at the last supper so you have to have it, too.

But let's think about it - the communion wafer is supposed to be, not bread, but the actual body of JESUS CHRIST. The Miracle of Transubstantiation, if I recall correctly. After the transubstantiation it isn't wheat bread anymore.

So I guess Jesus does not have the power to make rice wafers into his body, but wheat is no sweat? Or, if it's still wheat bread, then it isn't the body of Christ. You can't have it both ways.

Like I said, loons.

[Swamp Rat]

30. Hey! Where's the proof that this dude ate wheat bread anyway?

:shrug:

[tekriter]

31. Excellent point that I hadn't even thought of.

You get 10 years off your purgatory time.
(Purgatory - ANOTHER bullshit invention of the catholic church.)

[Swamp Rat]

34. NO PLEASE! I want to go to Purgatory!!!

We have been practicing in New Orleans for nearly 300 years.

[tekriter]

Oh, you're going alright...just not as long as you think...

I bet you ate meat on Friday at least ONCE when you were a kid.

[Swamp Rat]

44. Funny you should mention that.

I remember begging my dad to let me BBQ steaks on Friday instead of the usual Saturday BBQ after I heard we're not supposed to do that. So, my place in Hell was confirmed during childhood since I MEANT to break that rule on purpose.

[tekriter]

17. One more thing - if Jesus, at the last supper,

had his hair pulled back in a ponytail would I be denied communion because I'm bald and can't make a ponytail?

[DemBones DemBones]

23. Such brilliant logic simply astounds me. nt

[tekriter]

26. Then respond to it. Why is this decision by the church a good idea?

I'm waiting.

[DemBones DemBones]

45. I already made a lengthy response to another poster

but, in brief:

1) It's an unfortunate situation. I am very sympathetic toward this girl and all Catholics with celiac disease. It's a disease that can affect anyone and is becoming more and more common.

2) It wasn't an issue in the early days of Christianity, when the rules were made.

3) I hope the Catholic Church will make gluten-free Communion wafers allowable throughout the Church before too long.

4) Gluten-free wafers are used in many places, despite the rules. Sometimes I think some in the American hierarchy create problems unnecessarily.

BUT

5) I'm glad the Church changes slowly and tries to remain true to longstanding Catholic Christian teachings.

[tekriter]

49. OK, I read your responses, and I can see where you are coming from...

and I agree wholeheartedly with the church heirarchy creating problems unnecessarily.

I wonder how the rest of the world adheres to the wheat-only rule, especially in arid regions, or in southeast asia, or in other tropical areas where wheat is not common. I wouldn't be surprised if the rule is mostly a European and North American thing.

My real bone in this is that this girl is trying to do the right thing, and the church is making it harder for her. Jesus would not be happy about that, in my estimation.

By the way, the Pharisees were also notoriously rigid in their rules and we know what Jesus thought about them.

[Bark Bark Bark]

22. Here's A Solution

Maybe they could just crucify the kid. Whips, thorns, spears, nails, the whole works.

They're trying to force this choice upon her: die horribly now and get into heaven--or live your life but be doomed to an eternity in Hell.

Nice.

But I've comes to expect no better from a church that has said: "Sure, for decades we acted as an international protection network for men who molested children--but we still have the utter gall to sit in judgment of you all, especially you homos and your evil, evil love for each other, and you revolting women who delude yourselves into thinking you're our equals."

[AngryOldDem]

24. Just Wondering...

Do you think Christ would really care what the wafer is made of? So Christ cannot be present in **nothing** but a wheat wafer? Do you really think he would have such silly rules as to who could come to him?

One of my biggest gripes against the Faith is that it is always trying to put God and Christ in a box (or pyx, the case may be).

BTW, this is not new. Another little girl was denied First Communion under this species in Boston, when Law was still in charge.

I've heard every argument there is for this, and none are convincing.

[tekriter]

27. I'm with you 108%

That's 100% plus tax.

[Crowdance]

36. Yes. Too bad. n/t

[Doosh]

13. what's next? "Man with lazy eye denied communion"

"Woman with hangnail denied communion"

[dflprincess]

25. Let's keep one thing in mind

the girl's parish priest did agree to give her a rice wafer and she did receive her First Communion with that wafer. It was someone up the food chain that got wind of this and decided it was an invalid communion (I'll bet some busybody in the parish informed on the priest). The Church maintains that Jesus used wheat at the last supper therefore wheat must be used in the Sacrament. Why they think Christ would care what the host is made of is beyond me.

The problem with the wine is not the alcohol, it's that during the Consecration the priest does dip a host that has been broken into 3 pieces into the wine which means it is possible that there would be some crumbs in the communal wine cup and her mother, quite understandably, is not about to find out if her daughter can tolerate a crumb of wheat. Personally, I find the communial wine cup disgusting - sure there's someone there to wipe the rim off after each person drinks out of it but as far as I'm concerned that cloth must be germ heaven. A lot of people refuse it. (The cup was not used when I was a kid - I don't know where that inspired idea came from.)

[tekriter]

29. OK, I'm looking in the Bible right now...

it says in there somewhere that it had to be wheat ... I know it's here somewhere ... can't be rice .... gotta be wheat ... where was that? ...

Oh, it's not in here. Guess it's one of those catholic "rules that they can't prove" , like annullments.

[Swamp Rat]

33. Isn't there something in the old testament about eating unleavened

bread? I think it's near the part about "homos can't get married" and "no whistling on a Tuesday or we'll stone your ass!"

Anyway, that little girl is a witch. BURN HER!

[tekriter]

39. She turned me into a newt!

I got better.

[dflprincess]

35. I was only explaining the rationalization for this

I hope you didn't think I was agreeing with it because I don't. (I'm what they call a "cafeteria Catholic" and this is just another item you won't find on my tray.)

[DemBones DemBones]

42. Catholics are not fundamentalists -- we don't believe the Bible is to be

taken literally, and, being the oldest Christian church, we have some beliefs that come from early Christian tradition but were never encoded in the Bible.

But you're not interested in an explanation, just looking for something to trash about us mackerel snappers, aren't you?

Lord, deliver me from liberals like these!

[DU GrovelBot]

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[tekriter]

40. Now we did it!

n/t

[Hotdiggitydog]

41. Possible solutions....

Use a rice wafer impregnated with approxitely 3 molecules of the essential Jesus-containing gluten compound. If Jesus is all powerful as the Church claims, then it shouldn't matter whether you ingest 3 molecules or 3 hundred million molecules of Jesus-body bread.

OR....encapulate some special Jesus bread inside a capsule which will pass straight throught the body. C'mon, is the Church really going to examine the poop to tell whether the magic Jesus wafer was processed by the body?????

[KT2000]

43. No condoms in AIDS ravaged

communities around the world either.

ridiculous and shameful - this is a perfect illustration of what religion is really all about.

[Penance]

47. The poor girl is caught between the Church AND the mother

I'm a 'recovering' Catholic as George Carlin would say, so actually defending the faith is foreign to me, but it seems to me that the mother is being the more unreasonable of the two. I have little simpathy for the Church's wheat-only host rule, but they ARE giving the girl a theologically legitimate alternative: the wine. The wine's just as valid part of the sacrament as the host, but the mother won't allow her daughter to drink alcohol. (it was mentioned in local stories)

They're both being needlessly inflexible, but at least the church is offering a reasonable solution.