USA Today: Questions about Bush's Guard Service Unanswered (hits hard!)

[DeepModem Mom]

Thanks to brand-new DUer kicktheelephant, who posted this article in a GD2004 thread!


Questions about Bush's Guard service unanswered

By Dave Moniz and Jim Drinkard, USA TODAY


WASHINGTON — At a time when Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry has come under fire from a group of retired naval officers who say he lied about his combat record in Vietnam, questions about President Bush's 1968-73 stint in the Texas Air National Guard remain unresolved...

(The article raises the following issues: Why did Bush stop flying jets, and fail to take a physical; the '72-'73 gap when no one in Texas or Alabama saw him on duty; did Bush receive preferential treatment in getting a Guard, and pilot, slot "despite poor qualifying scores and arrests, but no convictions, for stealing a Christmas wreath and rowdiness at a football game during his college years.")

***

The White House has released hundreds of pages of records, but the files released so far haven't answered those questions. Since the documents were released in February, at least a half-dozen news organizations, including USA TODAY, have filed new requests for Bush's military records under the Freedom of Information Act....

***

Since February, the White House has banned all Guard and military commanders outside the Pentagon from commenting on Bush's records or service. Requests for information must go to the Pentagon's Freedom of Information Act office.

The Pentagon last week responded to a 4-month-old request from USA TODAY for additional records from Bush's files by sending another copy of documents that were released by the White House in February. The documents do not address the unexplained year in Bush's Guard service or his decision to stop flying....


http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/president/2004-08-23-bush-service_x.htm

[deacon]

1. I'll stick this on teh kerry blog n/t

[Occulus]

28. an aside:

I am soooo glad I now know I'm not the only person on this board who accidentally says 'teh' instead of 'the'.

I don't feel so... alone... anymore.... :evilgrin:

[TahitiNut]

40. Some of us are more cephalically bicameral than others.

:silly: (At least we know that's a two-handed typo.)

[Reciprocity]

58. 'teh' instead of 'the' isn't so bad I say how for who.

[Maeve]

62. And I have yet to figure out why "understand" comes out "understnad"

Nad that's the truth! :dunce:

[TahitiNut]

70. It's only because you use two hands to type.

Do you see how I can know that without even watching you? Let me coin a pseudo-scientific term for it: "bicameral typolexia". :silly: Or ... "ambidigital dysphasia"? :dunce:

It's not surprising, however, since we're all aobut teh conlfict between the left and the right ... perhaps oversensitive when teh right gets ahead of itslef nad beats teh left. :evilgrin:


On eidt: Maybe these should be called "semipolydextrous qwerty-quirks"?

[Maeve]

75. I blame it on being left-handed

But it's nice to know that it happens to others, as well!

Makes me feel that less "special" (in the short-bus meaning of the word)...

[TahitiNut]

76. (grin) It's gettin' lonely on this short bus.

So many people keep getting off. :silly: :silly: :silly: :evilgrin:

[leftchick]

2. This is Great DeepModem Mom!!

Read it and weep freepers....:bounce:


<snip>

The Associated Press filed a lawsuit this summer requesting copies of Bush's military records stored in a Texas archive on microfilm. It sought information that might explain why Bush did not take his flight physical and whether he showed up for duty in Alabama in the fall of 1972, AP spokesman John Stokes said.

[DeepModem Mom]

3. And, again, thanks to newbie kicktheelephant, in a first post!

[PatGund]

71. They don't care.....

The winger I deal with on a regular basis is *still* convinced that * has released all his records and Kerry hasn't released any of his, despite every bit of proof I've sent him. As a result, he believes that this has all blown over and it's only the so-called "liberal media" who keeps commenting on the "Bush AWOL myth".

It's the "my mind is made up, don't confuse me with facts" thing.

[Piperay]

4. GLAD

some of the media is finally questioning chimp's military record.:thumbsup:

[Born Free]

5. great article, keep the pressure on!

The bush team has made this a character issue, the only way out now is to force the bush coward out of hiding. The bush coward must be made to stand up like a man and fully disclose what he did during the Vietnam war so Americans can compare his character to John Kerry's character. The bush coward has a pattern of hiding behind others and even the bible to cover up his poor decisions in life, his cowardice during and after the Vietnam War must be shown to the American people so they can see the character of the man that is destroying everything America stands for in the world.

Those of you that are good writing to editors, keep the pressure on, we must smoke the bush coward out from hiding behind his cronies, we owe it to America to show everyone what this man is about.

[Judi Lynn]

6. SURELY some red flags should have gone up SOMEWHERE

From the linked USA article above:

Since February, the White House has banned all Guard and military commanders outside the Pentagon from commenting on Bush's records or service. Requests for information must go to the Pentagon's Freedom of Information Act office.

So he stonewalled everyone until he was selected, and NOW he apparently can forbid National Guard personel to discuss his history. Nice work if you can get it, eh?

[anarchy1999]

7. Beautiful!! Where are his fellow veterans? Why even with a $10,000

dollar reward will no one step forward? Where are the "vets" George was with? This is such a non-issue! But if Bush/Rove Inc. want to make it be an issue, let us make it one.

This has nothing to do with 527's. This is smoke and mirrors. Let's agree to get rid of all these "ugly" 527's that billionaires are contributing to. Right? I call BullShit! Sorry Mod's. Remove my expletive if necessary. I apologize.

Once again, kudos to you DeepModem Mom.

PS/ I have a contact or two at the Texas National Guard. Probably just signed up for a knock at my door, but it is true.

[Judi Lynn]

9. His fellow whatchamacallits probably have been unavoidably delayed

yet will be here soon. Any day now.







They'll set the record straight, and show us once and for all that _Bush is exactly the kind of substance Scalia and friends would shove into the Oval Office.

How could we have ever doubted him?

[EST]

8. Now add this to the huge DU investigation into

chimp's wearing ribbons he didn't earn, the issue of how he went from enlisted to 2ndLt with no OCS , etc. This is getting bigger and bigger; folks in Europe have noticed and are tuning in! This has Rove-scrub all over it.

[Disturbed]

10. A three year cover up.

Dumbass was derelect of his duty. Anyone that didn't have his connections would have been placed on active duty and shipped out or would never have recieved an Honorable Discharge. He was AWOL for over 30 days but the Air Guard just ignored this. He is a phony and a coward.

[qwertyMike]

35. Money don't talk

It swears obscenities - the song says

[WhereIsMyFreedom]

53. On his honorable discharge

Special treatment getting in, special treatment getting out.

[0007]

11. Let's talk about junior's community service in Houston and his

cocaine arrest that was expunged by daddy while junior was in National Guard.

Does anyone know where James R. Bath is today?

[DeepModem Mom]

13. I used to Google Jim Bath until blue in the face -- no society mentions...

no kids' weddings, no college reunions, no business deals. He got exposure in "F9/11," thanks to MM. I'm told he's mentioned in "House of Bush, House of Saud," but haven't yet read. Anybody know if it sheds any more light on the guy, and what he, no doubt, knows bigtime?

And he, of course, is part of the Guard story, as he and GW at the same time, I believe, skipped a physical and stopped flying.

[0007]

17. junior has James R. Bath hidden very well, if not buried.

Where was Jimmy last seen or known to live. Someone has got to know? This is a major cover up, in my opinion. ...such as IRS records.

[starroute]

32. Is there any sign of Bath after 1992?

That's when he was being investigated by the FBI for not registering as a foreign agent when acting for the Saudis and when his former partner testified that he was CIA. Has he been missing that long or just since Bush started running for president?


On edit: I just checked, and the last last public mention seems to be at the time of this 1994 lawsuit by his ex-wife:

http://sugarinthegourd.com/bath/bath02.html

A key figure in the world's largest banking scandal is participating in an attempt to take control of a major city of Houston aviation contractor, according to a lawsuit filed in federal court here.

National Commercial Bank-Jeddah, Saudi Arabia (NCB), which is controlled by the family of Sheik Khalid Bin Mahfouz, has claimed rights to 90 percent of the outstanding shares of Southwest Airport Services, according to documents accompanying the lawsuit filed by Sandra C. Bath, president of Southwest Airport Services.

<snip>

Bath filed the lawsuit against the bank and her former husband, James R. Bath, a local entrepreneur.

"Mr. Mahfouz, as owner of National Commercial Bank, hopes to accommodate Mr. Bath 's desire to assume control of Southwest Airport Services Inc., and treat it as his personal piggy-bank as he has done over the preceding several years," says the lawsuit.


But someone posted on Daily Kos yesterday (!) claiming Bath still shows up regularly at the Southwest Airport Services offices:

Anyway, Mr. Bath is still around and is associated with a number of corporate entities. One of these entities is a Texas company called Southwest Airport Services. Website here:

http://www.swjetops.com

Mr. Bath apparently shows up at the offices of Southwest Airport Services several times per week.

http://pontificator.dailykos.com/#

[0007]

42. Tell me, would it be possible to locate James Bath at this point in time

with a little incentive? I'm not sure how creditable the information is at dailykos.com.

Wasn't Major Bath AWOL the same time junior was? Didn't he quit flying the same time that junior did?

[starroute]

45. I'm not sure how credible that Daily Kos posting is either

But it's the only mention of Bath I could find later than that 1994 lawsuit.

I don't follow Kos regularly, but he's apparently been looking for Bath for a while. He posted that Bath's ex-wife is still listed in the Houston White Pages, as "S.C. Bath."

Bath isn't merely an old pal of junior's. He's been CIA, associated with BCCI and the bin Ladens, and part of Houston business circles that were heavily involved in the S&L scandals. This guy knows *so* many secrets that the pressures on him to keep his head down have got to be far greater than any "little incentive" could reverse.

[gatorboy]

48. Bath also was connected to the Bush abortion scandal

that came out a few years back:

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=bush+%22Jim+Bath%22&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&as_drrb=b&as_mind=12&as_minm=5&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=24&as_maxm=8&as_maxy=2001&selm=20001107035421.04395.00000261%40ng-fg1.aol.com&rnum=1&filter=0

<snip>
The source meanwhile, is afraid of coming forward, saying that she was threatened by Mr. Robert Chandler and by another Bush friend and supporter named Jim Bath. Mr. Jim Bath has longstanding intelligence connections, and played a role in the BCCI scandal. Robin Lowman (now Garner) is married to Jerry Lee Garner who is an FBI agent.
<snip>

[0007]

69. "little incentive" may have been a little too hasty and unthinking, LOL!

I'm sure it would have to be mega bucks.

[jdj]

50. this site has a timeline

but look, beside all the entries "dates uncertain" WTF?

http://www.modernhistoryproject.org/mhp/EntityDisplay.php?Entity=BathJR

Bath, James R. (1937 to present) | Google | Questia | Wikipedia | Namebase
• Aircraft broker, real estate developer, financial agent. Based in Houston, Texas
• 1992 : Article about J.R.Bath business dealings (See: Houston Chronicle article)
• 2001 : Article about J.R.Bath (See: John Mecklin article)
• 2002 : Another article about J.R.Bath past dealings with G.W.Bush (See: Tom Flocco article)
• 2002 : Detailed article on Bath, Bush, bin Laden, bin Mahfouz, etc. (See: Dubya Report article)
• 2004-03 : Detailed article about James Bath, bin Laden, bin Mahfouz, etc. (See: Martin Rivers article)
^ Southwest Airport Services Inc. (Director of, dates uncertain) | Google
• Director and shareholder
• 1994-09 : Houston Chronicle article about a financial dispute involving James Bath, Susan Bath and bin Mahfouz (See: Jerry Urban article)
^ Arbusto Energy (Owner of, 1979 to 1984) | Google
• Purchased 5% share of Arbusto from G.W.Bush for $50,000
^ Bank of Credit and Commerce International (BCCI) (Director of, dates uncertain) | Google
(no notes)
^ Bush, George W. (Associate of, dates uncertain) | Google
• Friend and business partner
• 2003-10 : Timeline of Bush relationships with James Bath, Salem bin Laden, Kahlid bin Mahfouz, etc. (See: CBC timeline)
^ bin Mahfouz, Khalid (Associate of, dates uncertain) | Google
(no notes)
^ bin Laden, Salem (Associate of, dates uncertain) | Google
• 1976 : James Bath appointed to manage financial affairs for Salem bin Laden
• 2001-11 : Article about Bush-Bath-bin Laden connection (See: Andrew Wheat article)
^ U.S. Air National Guard (Officer of, dates uncertain) | Google
• Pilot, Texas Air National Guard (with G.W.Bush)

[DeepModem Mom]

59. It seems that articles after a point in the Nineties are all about...

events in the past. I don't know if the lid was put on when GW ran for governor of Texas, or for President. See post 49 for a report of a recent conversation with Bath, by Craig Unger. At least it confirms that the man remains alive, and apparently lives in Houston.

[DeepModem Mom]

49. From Craig Unger, author of "House of Bush, House of Saud"...

writing in "Salon," April, '04:

Reached at his home near Houston, Bath, who has been a business associate and friend of George W. Bush's for about 30 years, acknowledged to Salon that he was the man in question (suspended from flying at the same time as Bush), but he dismissed the suspensions as trivial. "It happens all the time, especially in the Guard," he said. "In a regular squadron it is real easy to get your physical, but in a Guard unit, it is a different kettle of fish because the flight surgeon is also a civilian."...

Bath asserted that allegations that Bush had been using drugs are a "bogus issue," but declined to answer precisely why he and Bush failed to undergo their physicals. "I'm telling you that it did not happen. It is beyond laughable. I wasn't with him 24/7, but Geo did not use drugs. Geo did not use drugs, and I really know the facts."...

As it happens, when I interviewed Bath for my recently published book, "House of Bush, House of Saud," I discovered that the White House may not want to reveal his name because Bath, a Houston businessman who became friends with George W. Bush in the '70s, is the middleman in a story Bush doesn't particularly want told -- the saga of how the richest family in the world, the House of Saud, and its surrogates courted the Bush family. Bath was present at the birth of a relationship that would bring more than $1.4 billion in investments and contracts from the House of Saud to the House of Bush over more than 20 years. The blotting out of Bath's name indicates President Bush's extreme sensitivity about his family's extensive connections with the Saudis....

By 1976, (Salem) bin Laden had appointed Bath to be his American business representative. (Khalid) Bin Mahfouz drew up a similar arrangement with him. Bath was more than simply someone who could provide the Saudis with an entree to political power brokers. But exactly what he did beyond that, in the intelligence world and elsewhere, is shrouded in mystery. When asked about his career, Bath downplays his importance. By his account, he is merely "a small, obscure businessman." It has often been said that he was in the CIA, but Bath denied that to Time magazine. Later, he equivocated. "There's all sorts of degrees of civilian participation ," he told me. "It runs the whole spectrum, maybe passing on relevant data to more substantive things. The people who are called on by their government and serve -- I don't think you're going to find them talking about it. Were that the case with me, I'm almost certain you wouldn't find me talking about it."...

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/04/27/james_bath/index.html

[merci_me]

12. Trained on obsolete plane......

Why was the congressman's son trained on a plane that was already being phased out of service? One more cushion, to insure he wouldn't be sent overseas.

BTW, I don't have the history at my fingertips, but was Poppy still a congressman at the time, or was he already Chair of the RNC by then?

[Judi Lynn]

14. I went to look to see which plane it was, found this loathesome puff piece

from MSNBC:

In late 1969, when George W. Bush showed up at Ellington Air Force Base in Texas for flight training, his instructor was a 270-pound judo black belt and self-described "mean S.O.B." named Maury Udell. "I know your dad is a congressman, but that doesn't mean a thing to me," Udell told Bush. After Bush had learned to fly jets, Udell tried to rattle him by getting on his tail in mock dogfights. Bush gave his instructor a hard look and began doing his own high-speed zigzags, "doing his damnedest to lose me," Udell recalled to NEWSWEEK. "He was not a candy a--." Udell rates Bush "among the top 5 percent of fighter pilots I've ever trained."

Bush's frat-brother background was useful at flight school. A favorite fighter-jock game was called Dead Bug. In a bar, when anyone shouted "Dead bug!" everyone, including generals, had to drop to the floor with hands and feet extended into the air, like a dead bug. Last man down had to buy drinks. Bush, who was cheap as well as practiced at drinking games, "would always get to the floor first," recalls Scott Woodfin, a retired Air Force colonel who served in Bush's unit.

The standard rap against Bush is that he was ducking combat by joining the Guard. Actually, the Texas Air Guard had a program called Palace Alert that allowed pilots to volunteer for flight time in Vietnam. Three of Bush's fellow pilots—Udell, Woodfin and Fred Bradley—recalled to NEWSWEEK that Bush inquired with the base commander about signing up for Palace Alert. He was told no; he had too few flying hours at the time and his plane, the F-102, was by then deemed obsolete for air combat.
(snip/...)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4271922/site/newsweek/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sounds as if Karen Hughes may have written the _Bush material in this atrocity. Pure hype, and a huge intention to mislead.

[FormerOstrich]

15. My memory ain't what it use to be....

but I am almost sure that the piece was discredited or at least discrepancies with the time frames Udell was around.

[truthisfreedom]

20. i recall a more recent piece that debunks the obsolescence of bush's plane

where a military commander basically says "nonsense! we were still flying those in Vietnam!"

[caraher]

86. F-102s not important in 'Nam when Bush joined up

That debunking is overblown - and I learned today that Google is clogged with Republican propaganda on this subject. I'm a military aviation buff from way back and the F-102 deployed to Vietnam very early on but was long gone by the time Bush left Yale in 1968, and never did play a very significant combat role. From the usually reliable Joe Baugher web profiles of military aircraft (http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/f102_1.html)
-----------
Aircraft from the 590th Fighter Interceptor Squadron were transferred to Tan Son Nhut AFB near Saigon in South Vietnam in March of 1962 to provide air defense against the unlikely event that North Vietnamese aircraft would attack the South... <big snip> The F-102A was finally withdrawn from Southeast Asia in December of 1969...

(description of some nighttime harassment missions omitted)

The F-102s soon switched to a day role, firing the 12 unguided FFAR rockets from the missile bays, using the optical sight. 618 day sorties were flown, the last one being flown at the end of 1965. One F-102A was downed by ground fire during one of these rocket attacks.

There were some later missions flown, especially in Mayday emergencies when the 102's were the fastest response available in the South...
-----------

Offline, Victor Flyntham's excellent reference "Air Wars and Aircraft" shows the 509 FIS and 64 FIS as the last F-102 squadrons in Vietnam, withdrawing in September 1968.

Overall, while it was theoretically possible for a contemporary of Bush to fly a F-102 in Vietnam, the trend toward redeployment in the Air National Guard was well-established, and the role of the Delta Daggers at that point in the war was minimal (basically standing alert against a nonexistent air threat). This is not meant to denigrate the service of anyone who did fly or service the 102 in 1968-69 but simply a bit of perspective. I think Moore overemphasizes the "obsolescence" of the F-102 but the counter-arguments have been a bit over the top...

[merh]

25. I have never known a fighter pilot to just give up flying after the

service. Has the idiot flown since 1971? Doubt it and doubt he flew at all. :shrug:

[Frodo]

29. Interesting. Almost EVERY fighter pilot I know has given up flying

at least as a profession.

None of them wanted to go from F-16s to a jumbo jet that flies itself.


But it's a good question to ask whether he's even flown a Cessna (other than his 30 seconds with the stick before the carrier photo-op).

[merh]

33. That's what I mean, not as a profession, but as a hobby.

Of course, my father was a navigator in WWII and he hated flying and in his later years refused. He said he knew what went on in the cock pits and he would rather not fly!

But the former pilots I know love to fly and often fly small planes.

[HFishbine]

52. A couple of these ANG Pilots still fly (but that's not the point. Read)

BUSH A NO-SHOW AT ALABAMA BASE, SAYS MEMPHIAN
FedEx Pilot Bob Mintz, backed up by a Carolina colleague, recalls no Dubya at Dannelly AFB in 1972.
JACKSON BAKER | 2/13/2004

MEMPHIS – Two members of the Air National Guard unit that President George W. Bush allegedly served with as a young Guard flyer in 1972 had been told to expect him and were on the lookout for him. He never showed, however; of that both Bob Mintz and Paul Bishop are certain.

<snip>

Recalls Memphian Mintz, now 62: “I remember that I heard someone was coming to drill with us from Texas. And it was implied that it was somebody with political influence. I was a young bachelor then. I was looking for somebody to prowl around with.” But, says Mintz, that “somebody” -- better known to the world now as the president of the United States -- never showed up at Dannelly in 1972. Nor in 1973, nor at any time that Mintz, a FedEx pilot now and an Eastern Airlines pilot then, when he was a reserve first lieutenant at Dannelly, can remember.

<snip>

“I never saw hide nor hair of Mr. Bush,” confirms Bishop, who now lives in Goldsboro, N.C., is a veteran of Gulf War I and, as a Kalitta pilot, has himself flown frequent supply missions into military facilities at Kuwait. "In fact," he quips, mindful of the current political frame of reference, "I saw more of Al Sharpton at the base than I did of George W. Bush."

more: http://www.memphisflyer.com/content.asp?ID=2834&onthefly=1

[merh]

64. I love that link! thanks eom

:thumbsup:

[papau]

54. the base was known to have 2 seat versions of the plane - I suspect

he never flew solo.

Indeed that book which I forget has the author saying to Bush that he heard that Bush had the day before crash landed a training flight - with Bush responding - oh ya- prove it.

[kurtyboy]

31. The first sentence is utter bullsh__

If there were ANY 270 pound flight instructors in the Air Force in 1969, I'll kiss their bare bum in public....

And if I ever see a photo of a General playing Dead Bug, I'll do the same.

What a pantload.

[TahitiNut]

57. Evan Thomas (the author of that POS) is a right-wing presstitute

His articles are ALWAYS whorish and sycophantic.

[DeepModem Mom]

61. Evan Thomas, grandson of Norman Thomas, took a big drink of the KoolAid...

probably to keep his lucrative "mainstream" career afloat. Shame -- he wrote beautifully about Robert Kennedy.

[TahitiNut]

68. I don't know how beautifully.

He took on the authorship of his book on Robert Kennedy as a self-anointed "myth-buster" and portrayed the brothers as remote from one another while growing up, and portrayed Robert as the "runt" and reticent. In characterizing the Kennedy attention to civil rights, Thomas relegated it to a "side show" where their attention was claimed to be primarily on the Soviet Union and the Cold War. He said, "Martin Luther King and the civil rights movement, they were a distraction and an embarrassment to the Kennedy administration. Bobby at first was quite cranky about it and wanted it all to go away."

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/conversation/july-dec00/thomas_12-26.html


Perhaps I'm just too old and skeptical, but I really tire of the "fictionalized" viewpoint that pretends to read the minds of subjects like some bodice-ripper and passes itself off as "reporting." Whenever I see some 'journalist' write the words "he thought" or "she felt," the bile starts to rise in my throat. These pretend-journalists can keep their damned soap-operatic mind-reading crap to themselves. If it's not observable and documentable, it's not journalizable. I have no problem with reporting the claims a subject makes about "feeling" or "thinking" but I want to see that journalized as a "he said" not a "he thought" and then compared to the subject's actions.

[DeepModem Mom]

74. You're probaby right, TH -- in addition to my memory dimming...

we've poured the wine in the time zone I'm in.

[caraher]

87. Maury Udell must be a real character!

From http://www.bishopcraig.org/Maurice(Maury)Udell.html
---------------------------------------
This is must read of aviation history and miracles galore!

President, George W. Bush's I.P., (instructor pilot) was Col. " Maury " Udell.

Col. Udell cut that man zero slack at Ellington, AFB here in Houston, Texas.

In addition, Maury has never hesitated, like David or myself,

to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ with anyone who will listen. President Bush listened!

This is NOT about partisan politics at ALL! This ministry prays for ALL leaders! Period!

He hardly had a choice after flying combat practices over the Gulf of Mexico in a " lead sled "

( F-4 Phantom ) with Udell holler'n at the man to make a fighter pilot out of him!

Mr. President, The Col. hollers at me too! But when he does, it's darn sure worth listening to, and always balanced with love!

Col. Udell was the pilot of the F-101F Vodoo and Lt.Col. Miller was the " shooter " in the back seat when they won The Overall Top Gun Award in 1980. The factual story is loaded with a gut wrentching message that can only lead back to God's love, and Amazing Grace in these two men's lives. The aircrft was named "Ol' Blue Four".

[reprobate]

72. F102 history is now a national secret!

erospaceweb.org | Q and A - F-102, Vietnam & George W. Bush
... F-102A production models that entered service, 259 were ... were likely candidates to
be rotated to Vietnam. ... mid-1971 (Sources conflict on the date of withdrawal. ...
aerospaceweb.org/question/history/q0185.shtml - 41k - Cached - Similar pages

http://aerospaceweb.org/question/history/q0185.shtml

I googled "f102 vietnam theatre dates of service" and got the above as the first return. Went to that page and got a "Forbidden" return. Apparently it is no longer appropriate to inquire as to when the F-102 served in viet nam. Is it possible that its withdrawal from combat service predates bush's completion of pilot training and this information is no longer appropriate for american citizens to have?

As far as I'm concerned, treason is too good a word to use for this bunch. Assholes is a much better match.

[leftchick]

16. Woo Hoo.... This was just read on C-Span!!!

:bounce:

[WillyT]

18. Oh What A Beautiful Morning, LOL !!!

Dear georgie-boy,

That's what ya get fer playin with live hand grenades!!!

:bounce::bounce::nuke: oops!

[ima_sinnic]

19. you stinkin cowardly loser!!

run, cockroach, run!
back under your rock and into your slimey lair with the rest of your despicable lying-ass greed-head blood-sucking vampires!


phew--feel better now ;)

[Catshrink]

21. Which is worse, a draft dodger or a deserter?

I asked my dad that in the 2000 race. Dad's a conservative and he said a deserter was worse. When I told him that the jackass was a deserter he didn't belive me because the story wasn't told in 2000. Finally, finally....

[JoFerret]

22. Good solid piece of straightforward reporting

...now it needs to be repeated and furthered and the the pressure applied.

[Supersedeas]

23. Something may yet come out of the Rightwing Smear Campaign

Once the mediatypes start fact checking, our AWOL President may finally be exposed as a result of the Swifties efforts to disparage Senator Kerry.

Sad that the country and the media had to be dragged kicking and screaming by the Swifties into this sad period in our nation's history, when we have so many critical issues today that some many do not want to confront.

[Child_Of_Isis]

24. I firmly believe

that this is why Kerry is allowing this thing to drag out. It wouldn't surprise me if he and McCain had a major plan up their sleeve.

[spotbird]

30. McCain campaigned for Jeb in Florida two years after the * smear.

McCain has no standards beyond blind loyalty to the Republicans.

I just can't understand the love affair with McCain. In fact I think McCain says negative things about * just to appeal to independent voters, thereby helping Bush. A scandal pops up, McCain complains, the independents are supposed to think that if McCain still supports * then * must not be all bad.

It is a ruse, McCain it firmly in the Republican camp. Watch what he does, not what he says.

[krkaufman]

46. Thank you for the voice of sanity.

McCain is for the Republicans... but mostly just John McCain.

[peacetalksforall]

81. Absolutely

[DeepModem Mom]

26. FEEDBACK: [e-mail], [e-mail], link to...

webpage of USA Today contacts --

http://www.congress.org/congressorg/dbq/media/?command=org_pages&org_id=372

[roseBudd]

85. I emailed Memphis Flyer link to USA Today contacts

http://www.memphisflyer.com/content.asp?ID=2837&onthefly=1

This goes to character.

[bearfan454]

27. bush couldn't take the flight physical because

he was too busy packing his nose with his daddy's CIA cocaine. Remember when that CIA plane crashed in the 1980's and it was full of cocaine ? They couldn't hide it that time.

[Wakeup_America]

34. Actually there is a lot more to the story

than what has been reported by the “liberal” media such as the USA TODAY’s article. Here are the highlights of the findings of a four-month investigation conducted by several researches who have examined the Bush’s military records.

1. Based on the released pay-records he failed to show up for any training for five (5) consecutive months (May-September, 1972) and missed at least 20 scheduled UTA’s (Unit Training Assemblies) out of the 48 required ones. There is absolutely no evidence that he ever made up for any of them. Lawrence J. Korb, the assistant secretary of defense under Ronald Reagan after examining Bush’s records was asked pint blank whether Bush was an AWOL, he said, “Based on these military records, unless he had permission, it would be.” The only person who has stepped forward and claimed that he had seen Bush training in Alabama, John Calhoun, is completely inconsistent with the information found in the payroll records. Calhoun claims that Bush showed up on weekends “eight to ten times…from May to October 1972.”The payroll records show that Bush was never credited with any duty from May until the very end of October of that year.

2. He was allowed to substitute for many of his mandatory trainings contrary to the Air force policy, which states that all “substitute training” had to be performed “within 15 days immediately before or 30 days immediately after the regularly scheduled UTA…” Despite this restriction, more than 60% of the training credited as “substitute training” for UTAs was done more than 15 days before “the regularly scheduled UTA”..

3. There is ample evidence in his military record to suggest that he intended to abandon, if not desert, his military service such as requesting transfer to the 9921st Air Reserve Squadron in Alabama after he had already moved to Alabama. This unit in Alabama was a special kind of unit that neither offered, nor required, the kind of training that he was obligated by law to perform.

4. The primary reason he was admitted to the National Guard in the first place was his supposed flying credentials. But Bush missed his flight physical in July of 1972 and then he never attempted to make up for it. He didn't seek a physical in August or September. After six to eight weeks of taking no action to remedy the discrepancy-- Bush was suspended as a pilot for failure to take annual physical. According to the National Guard Policy he was no longer an eligible member and should have been expelled.

5. Finally, The White House claims that Bush “fulfilled his duty” as a member of the United States Armed Forces is based on a memo written by a former Texas National Guard officer by the name of Albert Lloyd. The memo states that Bush required 50 point credits each “retention/retirement year” (R/R year) in order for him to have a “satisfactory year.” In addition to being a false statement, due to all the missed UTAs, illegal substitutions, and suspended flying status, the retention/retirement requirement was only a subset of the much more stringent National Guard service requirements at the time.

A great investigative work with a lot more details can be found in

http://www.glcq.com/

[DeepModem Mom]

38. Thanks for adding this Wakeup_America, and thanks for joining us at DU!

[TahitiNut]

41. He was a no-show/no-pay for 193 consecutive days in 1972!

That's more than 5 months.

Next, NONE of his pay records show an Alabama address. They show a Houston address that's close to where he (purportedly) did community service (as a plea bargain?) for Project PULL.

"Six months of community service" was a common penalty for a drug bust.

[calimary]

55. Welcome, Welcome!

Good resource there - thanks for presenting it!

[Ernesto]

36. This is great!

When a "feely good" piece of pretend journalism like USA Today picks up he baton, you know the chimp is in trouble. Plenty of morans read this very ubiquitous rag. I think it can be found in every airport/motel/hotel in the country. Probably overses as well.

[Skittles]

73. yup, "McPaper" panders to the masses

it is indeed a good sign

[Gregorian]

37. The voters need to know this!

As we can obviously see, this TURD is not fit to be commander in chief. We shouldn't need to produce evidence that he was actually AWOL. This is incredible!
Thanks to the AP lawsuit, the Boston Globe, and now USA Today for even trying.

I'll believe it when I see it. Until then, my emotions run on emtpy.

The question is, will the voters know enough to vote how they should?

[young_at_heart]

39. Surely there is a veteran's group to make an ad about this

I'm sick of the WH not releasing papers and banning commanders outside the Pentagon from commenting. Where is the outrage?

[ILeft]

43. Good start, Moniz and Drinkard. Keep it up.

"Past military service and qualifications to be commander in chief have become a central theme in the 2004 presidential campaign."

Thanks for making it a central theme, Rove.

[HuckleB]

44. Suhweeeeet! The SBVFT backfire gets louder and louder.

The fools done bit themselves in the ass. This is awesome!

[freemarketer]

47. Too little, way too late........................................nft

ssdff

[barb162]

51. the democrat response

to the swifties, Dole, etal, should be the prez's military non-record.
Maybe that would shut them the hell up. If the GOP slugs knew that every single question about Kerry would be answered with "well, where was Bush, why didn't Bush show up in Alabama..." would this all stop?

[barb162]

56. Chicago Sun Times editorial 8/24/04

Open the records and shut the speculation

While George Washington seems to have managed to become president without having too many people leaping to impugn his character or questioning his role in the American victory in the Revolutionary War, just about every other candidate who would become president since then has found his military record and character the subject of intense public scrutiny.

Sen. John Kerry is no different. Though the past fortnight's debate over just what went on in the four months Kerry saw duty in Vietnam is particularly bitter, even in the rough-and-tumble annals of American presidential politics.

Part of this is Kerry's own fault. America likes its heroes to be humble, and by making his Vietnam duty the cornerstone of the Democratic National Convention -- from the chorus of military buddies to his starting his speech by snapping off a salute and announcing "John Kerry reporting for duty,'' the Democratic challenger held up his service as iconic, emphasizing his few months in Vietnam over his many years in the U.S. Senate.

The savage partisan attacks Kerry has been enduring appear to be having an impact. As one Democrat close to the campaign told the New York Times, "When you're basically running on your biography, and there are ongoing attacks that are undermining the credibility of your biography, you have a really big problem." Some of the emotion in the campaign inspired by 250 other Vietnam veterans is obvious payback for Kerry's later opposition to the war and allegations that American servicemen committed war crimes.

Since there is ample blame to go around, the question should be not who is at fault for this sideshow, but how to end it. Nothing is more unappealing than the thought of this bickering over 35-year-old history extending any closer to November. The American people deserve better than that. Ultimately, it doesn't matter whether John Kerry was a war hero or a self-aggrandizer half as much as his views on the economy, education, health care and the war on terror matter.

So how to get back to the actual issues? We think the best route is for both candidates to release all their military records and be done with it. Kerry should let the Pentagon share its files on the matter. And George W. Bush -- who is still being sued by the Associated Press for records related to his service in the Texas National Guard -- should do the same. Then perhaps we will only have a week more of this nonsense before we can move to more important matters.

Politics has been on a downward spiral for many years. It wasn't enough for Bill Clinton to be a bad president, in his enemies' eyes, he had to be a rapist too. It isn't enough for those who hate the current president to question his policies or motives, he has to be tarred as an imbecile. These are childish squabbles, not worthy of the great democratic traditions of this country, and can only be remedied by restraint and candor on both sides.

[grasswire]

60. dmoniz...

...at USA Today has been following this like a bulldog for years. He used to regularly email me to see if I had heard anything new about the scrubbing of the records. I never knew anything new, btw.

I wonder why no one has ever been able to find out what Bush's OLD Texas DL number was. Surely it would have been entered on something. A parking permit? A parking ticket?

Or this: in the 90s it was possible to purchase CDs that carried the drivers records of various states. It must be possible to find one of those. PIs must have had access to them.

I don't think enough resources have been poured into this aspect.

[DeepModem Mom]

63. You don't say, grasswire! I hope he stays on the story...

especially with this new incentive.

[Zorra]

65. "The White House has banned all Guard and military commanders outside

the Pentagon from commenting on Bush's records or service."

Gee, do you think Bu$h may be trying to hide something?

[Stephanie]

66. Question: Don't DUI convictions automatically disqualify you as a pilot?

At least a fighter pilot? If not then they should. Why would the AF accept a drunk driver as a pilot?

[Nevernose]

67. Not in 1970, and probably not today

Military pilots are rather infamous for hard-drinking ways (I'm thinking of The Right Stuff here).

Cocaine, OTOH...

[ItsMyParty]

77. Several months ago I read that the Associated Press had filed

the suit demanding release of the records. I was wondering when anything would be done - it takes this long?? And now it seems like someone is still stonewalling. This suit has been around for months. Perhaps now some of the media will start screaming because the media doesn't like to be denied things they have a right to. They also want to be the first to inform. I'm so glad this is in USA today because this is sort of "everyman's" paper. It is everywhere and it's one of those papers like NY Times or the W Post where when something comes to light, the others pounce on it.

[progressivebydesign]

78. I had NO idea they banned Guard and Military commanders from talking..

WOW. That is HUGE! I think that's the most striking thing about this article!!! Can you imagine that?? The Swift Boat Wingnuts can blather and lie and accuse, but everyone else is prohibited from commenting on Bush's activities?? Wierd.

[Tight_rope]

80. I like you didn't know...But we can now smell the stinch of Bush's AWOL!

[Merlin]

79. Why the hell isn't more noise made about Bush's ACTUAL FLYING SUSPENSION ?

It is incontrovertible and documented at:
http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/document.htm

[milkyway]

82. Thanks, Swifties! I hope the repugs spend next week ducking questions

about president AWOL.

[Supersedeas]

83. Never underestimate media bias

So do not hold your breath for Bush answering ANY questions about this next week.

[KittyWampus]

84. Junior Is Guilty Of Being AWOL

there is no question whatsoever.