Troops say proposed UCMJ change unfair in prostitution-legal Germany

[lebkuchen]

RHEIN-MAIN AIR BASE, Germany — Troops stationed in Germany are seeing red over the Pentagon’s proposal to add an anti-prostitution charge to the Uniform Code of Military Justice, and it’s not just the glow from the local red light district.

Military personnel and their families on Rhein Main Air Base, only minutes from one of the largest red light districts in the world, are angered by the Department of Defense announcement to change the UCMJ. Those interviewed largely agree that Germany is not the place to enforce such a law.

Unlike other overseas military installations across the world where sex trade and human trafficking runs rampant, in Germany, prostitution is legal. There are licensed brothels, called Eros Center, where working girls can rent their own rooms for the day. There are no madames.

Germany women choose prostitution as a profession and are taxed as regular workers, according to Frankfurt Web sites.

<snip>

Preventing troops from visiting red light districts is going to be difficult, according to Airman 1st Class Gerard Garcia.

“Normally, I don’t go to those places :) , but I don’t think is going to work,” Garcia said.


http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=24576

Anybody have any idea why the Bushies are introducing such a controversial and unpopular measure (at least among the troops) a few weeks away from the election? The soldiers are just beginning to receive their absentee ballots.

[henslee]

1. Soliders stationed throughout the world must be bigtime spreaders of STD's

Morals aside, this measure sounds like good idea.

on edit.... though it seems like one of those hard to enforce/don't tell me, I don't want to know scenarios.

No idea why Bushies are behind this. Maybe it just makes good sense in light of recent military incidents. Maybe some new related news is about to break?

[MuseRider]

2. I find it

difficult to believe that their families are also angered. WTF? Gee, honey, I am so angry that you can't go cheat on me and spend our money with that legal prostitute down the street. Maybe I missed something?

[Sandpiper]

5. I'm with you

Please find me one military wife who will go on record saying:

"I'm angry that my husband can't go spend our money on hookers."

[lebkuchen]

7. Military wives are very practical

One year unaccompanied tours ... shit happens.

Most military men will tell you that the percentage of married military who cheat on these long deployments is at least 75%. And that doesn't include single soldiers who use the services of a prostitute and so don't cheat.

That's a lot of soldiers receiving dishonorable discharges at a time when the US is fighting a war on more than one front.

[DulceDecorum]

17. If you get

a dishonorable discharge,
do you get dishonorably discharged from the service?

Can you
(or Neil Bush)
pleasurably screw yourself out of a military deployment to Fallujah?

[Hegemony Cricket]

3. An idea...imho...

This is a cheap maneuver to reach out to a base that has been feeling a bit squeamish following the big tent charade at the convention.

Evangelicals will respond to this measure quite favorably...

[lebkuchen]

4. Yeah

I suppose there are a lot more of the fundies than horny soldiers who have had back to back one year tours in Iraq/Afghanistan.

How will this help reenlistment numbers, I wonder. A lot of the soldiers being killed/wounded are around 20 years old and single. Germany is considered a plum assignment on the verge of being yanked away in favor of unaccompanied tours to Romania, Poland, Bulgaria and Uzbekhistan, countries that are rife with the human sex trade due to the poor economies there. 1) If the Bushies are so concerned about soldiers paying for sex, why send them to the former Eastern Blok countries unaccompanied to begin with? Why not keep them home w/their families or at least in a country where prostitution is controlled? 2) Civilian contractors, such as those working for DynCorp, have been outed by whistleblowers for having had regular sex with prepubescent girls. These contractors are paid by the U.S. govt. They are not bound by the UCMJ and they make a hell of a lot more than the soldiers. How does it help morale/reenlistment to be policing the soldiers' personal lives and not the civilian contractors whose jobs are 95% dependent on the taxpayer dole? 3) Are there enough "boots on the ground" for the Bushies to be concerned about prostitution?

[Sandpiper]

6. This measure actually has some practical value

Prostitutes are notorious spreaders of disease, and soldiers with STDs cost time and money to treat.

[lebkuchen]

8. In Germany the STDs are controlled

because prostitution is controlled and legalized. I realize this is a difficult concept for Americans to grasp, but the reality is, prostitutes must get regular checkups and document.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lebkuchen]

10. The title of the article applies to troops who are stationed in Germany

and who feel that the law is unfair because prostitution is legal in that country.

The sanctimony lies within the U.S. DoD/civilian corp and its inability to understand that not every country on the planet believes the oldest profession in the world needs to be outlawed, not to mention, become a cause celebre for troops lacking a spouse or a bathroom sink to jerk off into to lose their own profession over, and certainly not at a time when reenlistments are down.

"Wrap your mind around..." Is that a quaint affection being used in the US these days or a tired colloquialism?

[Sandpiper]

12. Again, since you're obviously having difficulty with this

The UCMJ applies to all military personnel stationed in all countries of the world.

That's why they call it the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

Which part are you having trouble comprehending, Uniform Code, or Military Justice?

[Liberal Veteran]

11. Speaking of sanctimonious gums....

Sailors and soldiers are going to have sex with the locals. That's a fact.

Worrying about the fact that money is exchanged in the process is ridiculously sanctimonious and the whole STD thing is nothing more than a stupid ass smokescreen for sanctimonious people to hide behind.

[Sandpiper]

14. And is this based on something

and the whole STD thing is nothing more than a stupid ass smokescreen for sanctimonious people to hide behind.

Other than your personal opinion? The US military is subsidized with tax dollars. Every time a soldier, sailor, airman, or marine picks up an STD from a prostitute, their treatment is paid for with tax dollars.

My argument is economic. I could care less about the morality of it. Yours is emotional.

[foo_bar]

18. consider the economic impact of 100,000 soldiers with blueballs

[Sandpiper]

20. That isn't really an economic issue

As much as a morale issue.

And besides, all of them have a functioning left and right hand. ;-)

But seriously, my feeling is give it a try, see if it has any economic benefit, along with its impact on morale. Based on that, then they can decide whether to keep it, or toss it.

The military is much too practical an institution to hang on to something that doesn't work.

[Liberal Veteran]

19. So is everytime they get travellers diarhea...how about we make...

...sampling the local cuisine illegal too?

See the silliness of it?

How about instead of making it illegal, we just teach troops about protecting themselves from STD's through condom use and other methods?

You are the one making brash assumptions that prostitution is the problem, not me.

What is the punishment for the person who gets an STD from consensual sex that doesn't involve the exchange of money?

How bout if Sailor Joe sleeps with the local slut and picks up syphillis or HIV?

We just let that slide right? After all, it's not prostitution, so no harm, no foul, no precious tax dollars out of your pocket, right?

That's why it's sanctimonious. It's not about STDs and you are being intellectually dishonest or naive to buy into that line. It's about nothing more than moralizing about prostitution.

[Sandpiper]

21. Thanks for the straw man arguments

n/t

[Liberal Veteran]

25. Where's the straw man? The analogy is accurate.

You are just as likely to catch parasites or food poisonings or other diseases as a result of eating the local food as you are to get an STD from sampling the local prostitute. Is that not true?

That cost money to treat. Don't you care about your precious tax dollars?

The straw man here is that prostitution is the problem.

It's not the problem. It's risky sex whether it be with a prostitute or a just a person who puts out for a couple of drinks.

Don't play the "straw man" argument with me, when you are the one defending the biggest straw man argument of all.

[Sandpiper]

26. Ok, here you go

It's not about STDs and you are being intellectually dishonest or naive to buy into that line. It's about nothing more than moralizing about prostitution.

Straw Man Fallacy - The speaker misrepresents the opponent's position and proceeds to attack the misrepresentation.

Your food poisoning argument was a Red Herring. My mistake.

[Liberal Veteran]

28. I totally agree with you...

Using your own argument:

The problem isn't bad food or prostitution.

It's education about risky behaviors and how to lessen risks.

Whether that means telling to the troops to avoid having unsafe sex or avoid eating in streetside dives or drinking the local water.

Let me ask you an honest question: Do you believe that two bucks worth of penicillin is more costly to the military than an investigation, legal proceedings, and punishment for the "crime" of whoremongering?

[Sandpiper]

31. To answer your question

Let me ask you an honest question: Do you believe that two bucks worth of penicillin is more costly to the military than an investigation, legal proceedings, and punishment for the "crime" of whoremongering?

No.

But not ever sexually transmitted disease is treatable with penicillin.

And I agree with you about education as the key to prevention.

However, Germany is but one place where US troops are stationed. In most countries of the world, prostitution is illegal. Turning a blind eye towards soldiers soliciting prostitutes in places where it is forbidden by law is tantamount to giving tacit approval for US military personnel to engage in illegal activity.

I would have no problem with a UCMJ regulation that allowed soldiers to hire prostitutes where it was permitted by law, and forbidding them in places where it is forbidden.

Does that seem reasonable to you?

[Liberal Veteran]

33. I think the bottom line is what is it really going to accomplish?

Troops are not exempt from local laws to begin with.

Take for instance the issue of theft, assault, or vandalism. Now in many cases, the serviceperson is turned over to American authorities, but even so, troops are nominally subject to local jurisdiction already.

How on earth are we going to have enough manpower to place near every base to play secondary UCMJ enforcement officials?

I played shore patrol myself once or twice in port. I had better things to worry about than following people to hotel rooms to see if money was exchanged.

[Liberal Veteran]

23. Where's the straw man? The analogy is accurate.

You are just as likely to catch parasites or food poisonings or other diseases as a result of eating the local food as you are to get an STD from sampling the local prostitute.

That cost money to treat. Don't you care about your precious tax dollars?

The straw man here is that prostitution is the problem.

It's not the problem. It's risky sex whether it be with a prostitute or a just a person who puts out for a couple of drinks.

Don't play the "straw man" argument with me, when you are the one defending the biggest straw man argument of all.

[Liberal Veteran]

22. And yes, it's an illogical reaction to the issue.

Just like "don't ask, don't tell" is ridiculous response to the issue of homosexuality. We ignore the real problem which is bigotry by pretending gays don't really exist in the military if we don't acknowledge them (If you can't see them, they can't see you?).

Same thing with this. We attack prostitution when the fact is that a local girl who just sleeps around for free is just as capable of dishing out any number of STDs.

Instead of responding to the problem by teaching about safer sex to save your precious ass tax dollars (which is the most facetious and illogical argument I have EVER encountered on this board), you think that somehow making prostitution punishable under the UCMJ will stop it.

As a veteran, I can tell you adultery is ALSO illegal under the UCMJ and if you think for one minute that stopped adultery in any way, then you must also believe that abstinence only sex-ed programs are effective in stopping teen sex.

[Sandpiper]

24. Are you capable of discussing this rationally?

Every reply you've made was a red-faced, emotional screed.

You started with putting words in my mouth, then brought up spurious comparisons, and now bring up unrelated issues.

You've brought up one logical fallacy after the next.

Would you care to let your fury abate long enough to discuss this in a reasonable, intelligent manner?

[Liberal Veteran]

27. I already did. This is a smokescreen. It's not a logical approach.

It's a stupid attempt to incorporate a form of morality into the UCMJ.

I realise that many democrats despise prostitution and think it's wrong, but this is a stupid approach to the problem.

It's treating a symptom of the problem and ignoring the overall issue and your plaintive attempts to paint me as being emotional because I see the futility and base transparency of this is not going to work.

This is a bad idea and I have pointed out why it's a bad idea and it's damn near unenforcable.

How much tax money does it cost to charge someone with a crime under the UCMJ and have an investigation to determine if the sailor is guilty compared to the cost of 2 bucks worth of pencillin?

Do you really believe the ship that left port and a week later a sailor gets symptoms is going turn around and investigate the issues surrounding how he got the disease including determining if the woman was a prostitute?

And how about the expense of placing MP's and Shore Patrol to keep an eye for anyone who might be getting some from a hooker?

Do you begin to see why this is a bad idea?

[Sandpiper]

29. Potentially, yes

Do you begin to see why this is a bad idea?

But absent some sort of cost-benefit analysis, all we're really left with is speculation.

Would you agree though that preventing and minimizing the spread of STDs among military personnel is in the best interests of both the military and the civilian population that subsidizes it?

As to the morality issue, the morality of prostitution is a moot point to me. I have no problem with sex as a commodity as long as the prostitute in question is an adult, and is doing it of their own accord and was not forced or compelled into prostitution.

[Liberal Veteran]

30. For every complex problem there is a simple solution.

...and it usually dead wrong.

This is a prime example of it.

In the final analysis, it's applying a naive and potentially MORE expensive solution to the problem than the problem itself.

I find it utterly illogical that anyone would defend making this part of the UCMJ.

[Pepperbelly]

36. F*ck economics ...

These guys and gals are not our butt-puppets just because they are in the military. They are adults and can do what the hell they want. In my view, changing the rules after one is in the game is illegal and each of them should have the opportunity to leave the military because of the imposition of a rule that transcends the authority that any human should have over another.

If you were to tell me that while I was defending my country that I should not do certain things because it might cost you money in paying for the medical treatment, I would have to tell you to Cheney yourself.

[Liberal Veteran]

37. Thank you. The economic issue is a red herring.

And it is disrespectful to our troops.

[Sandpiper]

39. And if you were to tell me

That because you're in the military, I'm obligated to pay for your hookers and your subsequent case of the clap, I'd tell you to go Cheney yourself.

And round and round we go.

[Liberal Veteran]

40. You are obligated to pay for his clap, cancer, ski accident....

....gall bladder removal, dental, or whatever if he happens to be in the military. You are beginning to sound like one of those people who say smokers shouldn't get health care and people with HIV should not be helped because they "brought it on themselves".

Isn't that the argument of the right wingers? We shouldn't have to foot the bill for other people's misfortunes because it all has to do with choices in life?

Perhaps you would do well to give more thought to this issue.

[Pepperbelly]

42. I would then have to say ...

that I am an adult and if you wanted to take my place, then go for it.

[girl gone mad]

13. Most std's..

are easy to treat (with the obvious exception).

Working girls in Germany probably take more precautions than the average club-goer.

[starroute]

15. The military has been dealing with these problems forever

My husband was a preventive medicine technician in the army in Korea in 1961-62. He tells me they had a big photo album of all the local prostitutes, and when a soldier came in with an STD, they'd ask him, "Ok, which of these have you been with?" and then they'd go out and make sure the girls got treated as well.

That and making sure the soldiers wore the uniforms treated with whatever itchy stuff kept away the bugs that transmitted hemorrhagic fever were his main jobs in the military.

I suspect this new policy has more to do with Middle Eastern mores than it does with anything else.

[VegasWolf]

16. God fearing people imposing their anally retentive attitudes!

More and more this country is going to hell with this admin!

[Pepperbelly]

32. What this is is a bunch of crap!

The military is NOT an extension of the evangelical right nor is it the cause of the "human trade". Banning sexual conduct on the part of adult Americans is absurd and probably illegal. At the very least, it is stepping far outside the bounds of authority granted by the constitution.

So do the drug laws, btw. If they did not, why is it that it took a constitutional amendment to ban alcohol but it did not take an amendment to ban drugs? Because the court cozied up to the notion of legislating through fiat rather than consitutionally delegated powers.

[Shallah Kali]

34. Actually legal prostitition does not stop sex slavery of trafficked girls

and women. Whether it is because their owners charge less or the customers want someone more exotic looking than local females it is still a problem in countries with legal prostitition as much as ones where it is illegal.

I am assuming Bush Co. is doing this to please the would be theocrats out there and not because they actually care about the fate of enslaved people. I wonder if they will try to ban prostition in Nevada to please them. That is something I have wondered about for years - why don't those against sexual content in movies go after actual legal paid sex in Nevada???

[Kellanved]

35. The US State Department is trying to get Germany to re-ban prostitution

Very actively so. It gets to the point that Embassy officials have hardly any interest in joint anti-terrorism efforts, but are only willing to discuss prostitution and Scientology.

What's worst is the idiotic claim that legal prostitution leads to slave-labor and human trafficking; while obviously the legalization was a huge step in fighting those crimes.

http://www.usembassy.de/policy/texts/miller.htm

[Dzimbowicz]

38. I used to be a Marine in the 1970s

and I spent some time in the Western Pacific where prostitution is also legal. I recall the lectures given us by the Navy Corpsmen (medics in normal terms) about VD and the photographs they showed us of what it could do to someone. Prior to being given liberty in places where there were an estimated eight prostitutes to every GI, it was difficult to say no; and many of my buddies said yes.

This is a lesson I learned from other people's experiences: I saw what gonorhea did to some of the guys. I even had to take one by the hand down to sick bay for "the cure". Ever see a big, tough Marine cry? (Because he could not relieve himself because of the pain, and he knew what was involved in "the cure.") This, more than anything else made me keep my trousers on!

With humans being humans, I think this policy will be a difficult policy to enforce no matter where.

Also, while I was in the Pacific, our ship pulled into Hong Kong and we were told that if anyone got a tatoo there they would be disciplined with a $150 fine and a stint in the brig (at that time hepatitis and sphyllis were the most feared communicable diseases and HK tatoo parlors were supposedly crawling with them). Well, needless to say, this policy was difficult to enforce, because many guys in my unit got them and they were never caught. Why? Well Hong Kong had (and probably still does) many a talented tatoo artist. I also think that because we were told not to do it, made the guys want to do it even more.

www.veteransforpeace.org

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

41. I made this point in an earlier discussion on this topic

Rhein-main Air Base is just outside of Frankfurt. I was in Frankfurt back in 1987 because flights to this city from the US cost less than all others in Europe except perhaps for Amsterdam. The city's red light district is by its main train station. Having some time to kill till my train arrived I took a walking tour of the area. Most of the signs on the brothels are in English. It would appear a good percentage of their business is done with American service people.