Endangered species: US programmers

[DuctapeFatwa]

Say goodbye to the American software programmer. Once the symbols of hope as the nation shifted from manufacturing to service jobs, programmers today are an endangered species. They face a challenge similar to that which shrank the ranks of steelworkers and autoworkers a quarter century ago: competition from foreigners.


Some experts think they'll become extinct within the next few years, forced into unemployment or new careers by a combination of offshoring of their work to India and other low-wage countries and the arrival of skilled immigrants taking their jobs.


Not everybody agrees programmers will disappear completely. But even the optimists believe that many basic programming jobs will go to foreign nations, leaving behind jobs for Americans to lead and manage software projects. The evidence is already mounting that many computer jobs are endangered, prompting concern about the future of the nation's high-tech industries.


Since the dotcom bust in 2000-2001, nearly a quarter of California technology workers have taken nontech jobs, according to a study of 1 million workers released last week by Sphere Institute, a San Francisco Bay Area public policy group. The jobs they took often paid less.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=711&e=10&u=/usatoday/20041014/tc_usatoday/endangeredspeciesusprogrammers

[sadiesworld]

1. .

[demnan]

2. Yes we are all facing this

Who knows? Maybe we'll all be working at Wal Mart.

[DuctapeFatwa]

3. Fort Worth Hosts Halliburton's Iraq Job Fair

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x906703

[harpo]

108. yeah I saw that too...herding cattle to the slaughter house

[soup]

4. Can someone 'splain this to me?

Computer programming - couldn't that be considered as a 'job of the 21st Century'?

*bushblips from the 3rd debate-

"I'd say, Bob, I've got policies to continue to grow our economy and create the jobs of the 21st Century and here's some help for you to go get an education- here's some help for you to go to a community college."
-

"You know, education is how to help the person who's lost his job, education is how to make sure we've got a workforce that's productive and competitive.

We get four more years, I've got more to do to continue to raise standards, to continue to reward teachers and school districts that are working, to emphasize math and science in the classrooms, to continue to expand Pell grants to make sure that people have an opportunity to start their career with a college diploma and so, to the person you talked to, I say "here's some help- here's some trade adjustment assistance money for you to go a community college in your neighborhood, a community college which is providing the skills necessary to fill the jobs of the 21st Century" and that's what I would say to that person."
-

"Thirdly, one of the reasons why there's still high cost in medicine is because this is, they don't use information technology. It's like it's the equivalent of the buggy and horse days, compared to other industries here in America, and so we've got to introduce high technology into health care: we're beginning to do it, we're changing the language, we want there to be electronic medical records to cut down on error as well as reduce cost- people tell me that, when the health care field is fully integrated with information technology, it'll wring some 20 % of the cost out of the system."

---

Unemployed tech people are supposed to go back to 'a community college in their neighborhood' to learn - what???? -

Horse shoeing? buggy building?

:wtf: :shrug:

[Arioch]

5. Come Monday morning

we will have our first off-shore trainees in the office.
For six months we will be "training" programmers who will then head back to India.

I'd be surprised if they don't get mugged in the parking lot one night...

There not even here yet and there is murder in my co-worker's eyes...

[alevensalor]

6. I'm a SW Eng

And I did a story on this on my blog two days ago, entitled Go To School, ya Hippies!

Check it out from a SWEng POV. http://watchingthewatchers.org?p=119

~A!

[klook]

9. I agree

Bush's comments were completely idiotic.

So are you a proponent of restrictions on hiring foreign workers? What about hiring teams of programmers who are located off shore?

[alevensalor]

14. It's a tough situation for US corporations

Largely because they have to make money, and I understand that completely. What we are moving to in our society, however, is a place where there are only minimum-wage jobs and medical jobs available domestically, and everyone who is not a doctor or a nurse is below the poverty line.

Yes, I am against outsourcing our jobs, but I think legislating restrictions about who they can hire won't work, because they will simply circumvent them. We need to make it too expensive to outsource, and then they will come around.

~A!

[Cicero]

21. You forgot about the lawyers and actors. eom

[GinaMaria]

32. and military careers n/t

[Thor_MN]

49. That the same arguement that * uses on taxing the rich - they have lawers

and accounts and are good at dodging taxes, so it just won't work...

[burrowowl]

55. Just a little example of Corporate Greed

You pay $10 for a tee-shirt no matter what.
If an American makes it $0.24 goes for labor if a Vietnamese makes it $0.01. Neither the American nor the Vietnamese worker is ahead in the game. The Corporations are. Many times, like it happened in Mexico and the Phillipines, Corporations create 'free trade zones' and the workers are forced to work even below their own countries minimum wages amd worker protection laws.
Guess where the money and so-called savings go? Into the pockets of the top 1%.
Highly recommend: Wealth and Democracy by Kevin Phillips. Anybody but a billionaire (not even a miilionaire) voting for Bu$h is an ARSE!

[ramapo]

30. Worse than the idiotic Bush...

are the millions of idiots who hang on and believe every word out of his mouth...community college for the out-of-work programmer...how absurdly stupid

[SkipNewarkDE]

25. Good article in your blog. I, too am a software engineer

And from the period of early 2001 to 2002, I was unemployed. I had the great pleasure of going to college for six years to learn my craft, and develop it and grow career-wise for some 15 years in the industry.

I was up to making well over $100,000 a year. The company I worked for went under due to really poor fiscal management, and an inability to secure additional venture capital, despite the really lucrative product this company produced. I was laid off.

For the next 15 months, my life became a living hell, as it was systematically disassembled before my eyes. Having a lifestyle and commitments that were met with one salary, and then suddenly having to make ends meet on unemployment made me seriously reprioritize my existence. I sold off bits and pieces of my life over the ensuing months, ran up dept, lost my credit.

Then the unemployment ran out. I had the shame of eating with food stamps, my look, my clothes, my spirits became a bit raggedy.

I was fortunate almost two years ago to finally secure a job in my profession developing commercial application software. The catch was the job is located 65 miles away from my home, in a place I have no desire to move. I like the job, just not a fan of the place where it is located. The salary is merely ok, but bundles of money compared to what I was making. With fuel prices what they are now, I find that I am pissing away $400.00 or more a month just for my commute, kind of a payment for the pleasure of having a job.

It sucks so tremendously.

[alevensalor]

34. I can empathize with that

I went from 50K a year to 20K at Wendy's, I definitely feel for the situation, even if I can't empathize with the scope. That totally has to suck.

~A!

[Dogmudgeon]

38. Same story

Only I didn't work at Wendy's.

My grandmother took ill, and instead of bringing in a nurse, I was recruited for the job.

Taking small-peanuts programming work I got on my own, I made about $1200 this year. But at least my grandmother is still alive.

--bkl

[soup]

11. The people who work at your company

are expected to train the very people who may then take their jobs?

I know nothing about computer programming, but think I'd have trouble not throwing some kind of glitch into the works.

[barb162]

13. I cannot blame one person for feeling this way. I was asked to do

this twice and I quit outright with no job. It is humiliating!

What is happening to the American worker these days is outrageous. If Congress can do bills favoring corporations they can do the same for voters and workers.

[arikara]

16. Are you training your own replacements?

If so, I really feel for you. I've heard of that a lot recently. I just lost my job as a tester but at least I didn't have to train my replacement...

[DulceDecorum]

8. Unemployed tech people

can generate huge income from
selling on eBay.

[klook]

10. Jobs of the 21st century, Bush style

• Selling stuff on eBay
  
• Torturer for hire
  
• Selling pirated DVDs
  
• Community college instructor
  
• Pell grant administrator
  
• Wood salesman
  

[DBoon]

19. Another one

make easy money by collecting Bush/Kerry signs and turning them in to the local Republican Party for $5 each.

Much more lucrative than picking recyclables out of the trash

[burrowowl]

53. Well, I guess

Bu$h thinks everybody should get an MBA.

As with China producing spare parts for airplanes and some parts of weapons systems (quality very bad). What if off-shore programmers decide to really f**k up stuff for U$ consumption?
The U$ Corporate Empire planting the seeds of doing in almost all of U$ citizens.

[pdurod1]

64. Bush wants a nation of marching morons

Hitler tried to do it in Poland during WWII. Bush seems to want the US to resemble a forced labor camp, make us slaves to money: "Arbeit Macht Freiheit from our credit cards." Take away the overtime benefits, let the retirement age go up. Work longer and harder and turn us into Mexico. Community Colleges teach vocational skills, they don't deliver a full education. Look at the manufacturing sector, these skills are being offshored faster than programming skills. What's left? No opportunity, might as well blow the dust off the military career and defend well paid Haliburton employees. We won't need a draft.

[klook]

7. Foreign code

To anybody who's worked in a company that writes original software, it's obvious that there are a lot of people from other countries doing this work now.

And who can blame the employers? These people have excellent skills, some of them--especially those from India--speak and write English very well, they cost less, and they have a great work ethic. Often they have no personal life to speak of, since their families are back home and they don't know many people here, so if they're paid by the hour they don't mind working long hours.

As a recruiter once said to me, "Why should I hire an American for $100 an hour when I can get a couple of guys from Bangladesh to do it for $60 an hour?" (This made me feel great, since I was making far less than $60 an hour! But that recruiting firm is now out of business, thanks to the turn-of-the-century technology bust.)

This is even better than hiring women at 76 cents on the dollar, so suddenly corporate America is embracing multiculturalism.

Outsourcing affects not only the software industry, but also engineering, as this article describes:
http://www.aecnews.com/online/Back_Issues/2004/aec2004-02/03-offshoring.html

So what should we do about this? Instate financial penalties for American companies that hire foreign workers? Make it harder for foreign workers to get work permits? Or should unions make a concerted effort to sign these workers up and thereby boost pay scales for everybody?

I don't have the answer, but I do have some advice for those working in the technology sector. Learn new skills. You have to be constantly retooling and broadening your skill set so that you can offer a smorgasbord of marketable talents that others may not have.

If you're a software programmer, you should learn something besides programming skills--for example, project management, marketing, documentation, or making presentations--so that you can be a double or triple threat in your current position. ("Value added" is the bizspeak term.) If you're an engineer, same thing.

Or consider a different career altogether. You may have transferable skills that can be used in a different work situation. Check the What Color Is Your Parachute? web site by Richard Bolles for more ideas and advice.

The problem, of course, is that most other fields don't pay as well as technology does, and that's what's putting the hurt on these people.

I was glad to hear John Kerry say, in the third presidential debate, that he can't guarantee that we'll keep jobs from being outsourced, because that's the rational answer. However, as he said, it's important to work on solutions to ameliorate the problem. Closing the tax loophole that rewards companies for going overseas, and creating a tax credit for employers who hire American workers are two ways of doing that.

(edited for formatting)

[AndyTiedye]

18. ...

> These people have excellent skills,

Some do, some don't. Whey you hire a lot of people in a hurry, as
many outsourcing companies have, you don't get the cream of the crop.

> some of them--especially those from India--speak and write English
> very well, they cost less, and they have a great work ethic. Often
> they have no personal life to speak of,

There is a very substantial Indian community in Silicon Valley.
A lot of them have more of a social life than I do.

> So what should we do about this? Instate financial penalties for American companies that hire foreign workers?

It would be reasonable to tax those companies more, since they are
causing the government to have to spend more money.

> Make it harder for foreign workers to get work permits?

Most countries do that in times of high unemployment.
Unfortunately, this doesn't do anything about outsourcing.

> Or should unions make a concerted effort to sign these workers up
> and thereby boost pay scales for everybody?

If unions want to retain any relevence at all, they will have to.

> Learn new skills.

That has always been a good idea.

Almost anything to do with security has been hot lately, for
obvious reasons. That includes computer and network security.
That's what I do. The group I work in has been expanding, even
during this Bush-league economy.

[Silent3]

12. One ray of hope

I don't doubt that many software jobs will be lost to outsourcing, but I think their are some limits to what can be accomplished via outsourcing. Horror stories of software outsourcing gone bad are already piling up and should eventually give those who would ship software projects overseas some pause to reconsider.

Non-technical managers want very badly to believe that software can be produced in an assembly line fashion. They have fantasies of rigorously defined stages of architecture, design, and coding, where a small number of expensive analysts are going to reduce every problem down to ball-and-stick diagrams of utter clarity which capture every nuance of the final desired product, making the final neatly delineated stage of a software project, after architecture and design, a “mere matter of writing code”. The coding stage in this fantasy world is set of simple, easily divisible tasks, ready to be farmed out to any number of interchangeable, easily obtainable and replaceable mediocre programmers with commonly available skills.

There are software projects that can almost be made to fit into this fantasy world, with the headaches of software reality that will be encountered perhaps still being an acceptable cost given the savings of using cheap talent.

In a lot of the kind of work I’ve done, however, this kind of approach would never work. Requirements are shifting all of the time. Software tools and APIs don’t work as expected. The pretty ball-and-stick diagrams fail (as nearly always) to capture enough of the character of the real problems that have to be solved. Software engineers need frequent interaction with other people who know about customer needs, hardware requirements, etc, interacting in ways that can’t be hindered by language barriers and which suffer from long-distance communication.

My guess is that it will turn out that only the most deadly dull software engineering tasks and cookie-cutter software projects will yield satisfactory results when outsourced. Companies will, at least for a time, keep throwing good money after bad, however, lured in by the promise of cheap software development, but many of them will end up with delays and cost overruns as they try and try again to fix the messes they get into from unwise bargain hunting and unrealistic fantasies about assembly-line programming.

[klook]

15. Good points

Very true that managers with little understanding of the software development life cycle, and the realities of technical processes, want very badly to get the job done well, cheaply, and quickly. Of course, these people have forgotten the old truism "Price, quality, speed: pick any two."

And these are the same idiots who want to change their minds 15 times about the project and then expect it to still come in on time.



Welcome to DU! :hi:

[lagniappe]

33. I tend to agree and have a more positive outlook.

I think the future for software engineers and IT in the U.S. is better than most people think. I'm starting to get a few more head hunter calls than I have in the past few years.

As far as outsourcing is concerned, you simply can't throw business requirements over a wall and expect to get back reliable, maintainable software - especially for complex enterprise applications. Most of the applications I've worked on had complex business rules. Simply hiring a junior programmer from India won't cut it in many situations.

During the dot com boom, everyone was a 'software engineer'. Many, many people jumped into the industry. Most commanded a very high, sometimes outrageous salary even if they did not have a compsci or engineering degree or industry experience. There was no way that the industry could sustain what we saw during that time. The dot com boom was an anomaly. We should not use it as a benchmark to measure the health of IT in the U.S.

I look at software engineering the same way I look at mechanical, electrical, or civil engineering. It will eventually stabilize just like other comparable fields. Sometimes your industry will be hot and sometimes it will slow.

[DubyaSux]

89. I agree...

...I think that there is a true crisis in the IT field, but this "extinction" talk is extreme.

This is far too broad a paintbrush. If we were to only look at commercial desktop programs, this premise would be valid. It's very tough to compete, nobody wants to spend that much, and quite frankly, it doesn't matter where it came from.

But there is plenty of business for technical software used in manufacturing, engineering, and hardware related industries. It's very tough to send this work out because of the amount of "hands on" work required to implement the software.

I write software for security systems during the day. That business is great. It can't be sent out because of the hardware/debugging requirements.

After hours (about 30-40 hours a week), I write software for robotic and automation equipment. I always have at least one project backed up waiting on me. I can charge $60/hr and as an LLC, pocket the money without being legally liable for the company. If the company gets sued, they can't touch me.

I have a website, but have not posted it to search engines because I'm afraid I'll get more business than I can physically handle. If we can get some type of nationalized healthcare through Kerry, I'm golden. I can quit my day job and just concentrate on my own business and make lots more money.

Software development is not dead. There will be more computers, not less computers. Some industries have been very badly affected. Some have flourished. That is not "extinction" in my opinion.

[newyawker99]

39. Hi Kerry4Kerry!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[liberalcanuck]

80. Sounds very familiar...

They have fantasies of rigorously defined stages of architecture, design, and coding, where a small number of expensive analysts are going to reduce every problem down to ball-and-stick diagrams of utter clarity which capture every nuance of the final desired product, making the final neatly delineated stage of a software project, after architecture and design, a “mere matter of writing code”.

You wouldn't happen to work for Accenture would you?

[sweetheart]

17. The industry is mature

For the past decades, we've been collectively building the first
permanent layers of abstraction in software/hardware/IT. It used
to be you wrote device drivers, now they come with the computer,
and so many things that were done by programmers in the past are now
simply configured and no longer need highly capable folks, rather
"administrators", people who used to be called "operators" in
mainframe times.

As well computer capacities are sooooo large, that a single system
that used to be a serious challenge to support say 1 million users
is now an out of the box package or service from a hosting company.

Before computers, banks used to employ 10000's of people who were
called "computers", and as they've automated, these human computers
were retired, and so on and so on, that as the industry matures
there is simply not the need there once was for so many, and there
is an oversupply.

As well, the industry has been collapsed in to a few tiny monoplists
who have a direct interest in destroying all competition, including
independent programmers who are better than their entire organizational
capacity. Oligopolists who abuse their market positions: microsoft,
IBM, Oracle, HP... The mark of a maturing profession is when
industries buy each other instead of growing in the market, showing
that the market is saturated and the only way to grow is to buy
the customers of a competitor outright (hence oracle's bid for
peoplesoft).

What is really sad, is that the industry has ossified. There are
no new databases, no new serious software architectures emerging,
as the whole industry is shifting from innovation towards low cost
sales and delivery... and we are stuck with windows and some of the
crappiest user interface software around, when so much better is
possible... but not unless you bust these monopolists who are
blocking innovation with their faux-maturity. They know, just
like IBM almost lost it to MSFT in the 80's... that if a serious
innovator is allowed out of the gates, it could see them all off.

Consider how long in human history, innovation techniques improved
over 1000's of years that stone houses have grown in to skyscrapers
and bronze tools to aircraft flying a 1000mph. Yet computers are,
according to the bullshit pundits, now "MATURE" after 50 years.
Bollocks. There is a LONG way to go, and most of this first
generation stuff we use today, will be seen in future times as
bronze age computing.

[klook]

28. Interesting stuff. So what about Linux? (n/t)

[sweetheart]

31. linux is based on UNIX circa 1972

Though it appears to be "modern", it is simply public domain old
stuff. Granted, up until the last 10 years, unix was only running
on machines private individuals could not afford... and i really
like UNIX... but geez, it was originally developed on a PDP-10
or 8, someting that is truly a magnificent antique if you see one
these days.

In that sense, the innovation of UNIX was paid for by Bell Labs
when Bell labs was supported by the ATT monopoly (american taxpayers). That is part of my point, that the "foundation" levels
of modern software are actually quite old, and nobody has fully
revisited top-to-bottom the entire paradigm, and in a way, the
old legacy deprives modern innovators with the "clean slate"
edge of true innovation.

[davekriss]

44. The PDP-10! Brings back sweet memories...

In the mid-seventies, when I was in highschool, I wrote a "password stealer" on a time-shared PDP-10. It had beautiful assembler language! "CAIN" for "compare accumulater <against> immediate <and branch if> not equal" -- it was, to me, technically very "pretty" (I hated the 3 letter mneumonics of IBM!).

I had passwords into the project/program numbers of almost the entire system, academic and businesses. My "catch.da" program ran 24 hours a day and intercepted hundreds of id's. I deposited copies of the program source code, complete with comments describing what it did and who I was, on everyone's disk space around the system (then expensive), yet still (though they tried) they could not defeat catch.da! Finally, the owners of the PDP-10 had to call DEC down from Maynard to figure out what was going on. I was ceremoniously banned from the computer thereafter but I was protected because the head of my school's math department said he challenged me to do it because he believed it could not be done.

Instead of CS, I pursued a liberal arts degree (english lit), and I've had multiple careers (including film editing, resturanteering, and management consulting that's never too distant from technology) -- but I'll never forget my fun on the PDP-10!

[DBoon]

20. Slashdot has this too

In case anyone is interested...


http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/10/15/1521231&tid=156&tid=187

[Robert Oak]

22. they won't look to the obvious

There is absolutely no job immune to outsourcing anymore.

All of these arguments about the "jobs of the future" do not work
because right now, in china and india, you have US CORPORATIONS
educating chinese and indians for the jobs of the future.

It's a complete myth that magically the US will innovate and have
expertise in the jobs of the future

simply because they are screwing their technical innovators of the present...

and this is where the innovation of the future would come from.

Right now we have globalization which leaves out societies as a whole.
It doesn't protect workers, we're considered a commodity, the same
as raw materials to make steel, we're considered expendable.

[Boomer]

24. Nonsense

>> There is absolutely no job immune to outsourcing anymore.

You must mean no white collar job, because I challenge you to outsource the need for an electrician or plumber.

I would kill for a reliable, skilled workman who could rewire my house or rebuild the brickwork on my crumbling front porch. But they're booked solid months in advance, never bother to answer the phone, never return calls or don't even show up for scheduled appointments. I've been reduced to hiring a series of handymen who have sometimes wreaked more damage on top of the original problem.

I don't get it. With unemployment running high, underemployment running even higher and jobs bleeding overseas, you'd think there would be a stampede of young men and women to trade schools. Are these jobs so demanding or demeaning that no job at all is a better alternative?

[Robert Oak]

26. yup, they can outsource a plumber and electrician

it's called US guest worker VISA program.

Right now they are bringing in nurses, doctors, engineers, financial analysts on H-1B, L-1 and right now in trade negotiations they are trying to get unlimited
restrictions in having foreigners, who will work for 20-50% less
than an American counterpart, into the US.

Amazing but true.

I personally thought electrician or plumber would be the way to go
because it was a local service, required high skills and was good paying...

and then I read about *this* trend.

Little publicized is they have been doing this for years now, bringing
in computer engineers from foreign countries who work for 20-50% less
on the US visa system.

(BTW: I personally think the infamous "demeaning" crud between
someone who is a tradesman and a white collar professional
is another public relations job to keep labor overall from forming
a coalition to stop this screw job on Americans...and I think
what's happening to white collar professionals is waking up
many who didn't blink an eye when the auto workers were so screwed
over.)

[trogdor]

27. The problem is the system making it worse...

...not that it's happening. Cutting off tax breaks and other incentives for companies that don't make anything here anymore helps. Going after companies that relocate offshore to some tax haven helps too.

On the other hand, you will find it hard to convince a credit card company, a software company, etc., who must maintain 24/7 customer service that hiring Americans to work the graveyard shift is better than hiring Indians who are just having their morning coffee when we're going to bed. We can globalize AND protect American labor. It is indeed possible. It just requires leaders who care about this sort of thing.

[Robert Oak]

29. I wrote a dailykos comment wondering where is real intelligence?

Right now you just have multinational corporations and foreign lobby
bodies like the India caucus pushing for whatever is going to make
their short term gains happen, there isn't any long term strategy
beyond putting power and money in the hands of the few.

Here's my comment regarding the outsourcing question from debate 2 and 3.
============================================================

Bush's answer was so insulting, he switched to education, as if people with multiple Masters in Engineering and Computer Science (who are being hit heavily with outsourcing), people with PhD's in Chemical Engineering (who are starting to be outsourced) need to go back to community college for retraining.

Kerry is at least acknowledging the problem, yet no campaign mentions our trade deficit, which is now at crisis levels and how outsourcing is one symptom of overall decimation of the US as an world economy, long term. (multinationals, sure they are doing well, but the US, well no)

The question is will our government stop peddling to multinational corporations and start working for the middle class?

There needs to be a plan, a strategy to deal with the job question raised in debate #2 to Kerry that really wasn't addressed:, which is, what is the nation going to do about the "race to the bottom", the bottom being depressed wages?
No one can compete with an equivalent white collar professional who offers the same results for 1/10th the price. This is the fundamental issue
going on that there is not, to date, a solution presented.
Restructuring the tax code, manufacturing credits, reduction of benefits costs, such as health care, forcing an increase in overall labor costs in the 3rd word by basically stopping the practise of slave labor (which is what China is doing), adding to the cost of doing business by not letting the 3rd world (or should I say the multinational corporations operating in the 3rd world) ruin their (and our) environment, US domestic deficit reduction, all of these policy modifications will interplay and synergistically help.

How much help is the question. If it doesn't make the wages equivalent so all, lets say lawyers, cost the same world wide...then what is the US going to do? Lose all of it's legal expertise to 3rd world experts?

Or, will they make sure we keep critical knowledge and skills within the US by demanding a PPI ratio adjuster, so we can compete yet have a high standard of living? But, then this is a protectionist economic tool...it would be a wage tariff. Let's say someone comes to their senses and realizes that sometimes a little tweak with a protectionist economic tool is "not a bad thing"...well,

there still is a problem of the US not having a veto vote in the WTO. We have 23 other nations who wish to sell to us and made sure we do not sell to them (at least not as much) making trade treaties and international law decisions that the US cannot veto...fundamentally a problem.

[Marxdem]

45. I disagree

While I can't state that the tax cuts don't make it more attractive to off-shore. I think its the lower wages that makes the difference. 10% tax cuts are crap compared to 500% wage reductions they get from outsourced payroll.

[Boomer]

35. Technically, that's not outsourcing....

although I do grant that the effect -- putting American citizens out of work -- is the same.

[FlaGranny]

82. Plumbing and electrical

ARE some of the dirtiest, hardest, exhausting, and most unpleasant jobs in the world. That's why they charge so much. Plumbing doesn't sound too bad until you think about what they have to do - like crawling under a house to fix a sewage leak while lying in the middle of the results of the leak. Electrical is not much better -crawling into cobwebbed crawlspaces and attics where the temperature can be 140. You have to like and be able to do hard physical labor to even think about it. They earn every single penny and their jobs require intelligence and knowledge. I really respect plumbers and electricians.

[VegasWolf]

23. Note to CompSci PhD candidates, change your major! Who

would have thought that a CompSci PhD will have the
same earning power as a Philosophy PhD?

New Information Shows Bush Indecisive, Paranoid, Delusional

[OhioChick]

36. E week....

Anyone read the October 4th issue of E Week? (Stop the H1-B Bashing) Makes me sick.....

[newyawker99]

40. Hi OhioChick!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[OhioChick]

63. TY!

Thank you for the welcome! I feel right at home here!

[NJGeek]

47. sorry, but thats a ridiculous statement

please see my post "a bit overstated" below.

[VegasWolf]

56. Sorry, don't buy your argument. You say that you are an IT

consulting manager, well I am an past executive of IBM and Oracle.
With the benefits we received for outsourcing jobs to India, the head-count was virtually free after all tax games had been played.
You mention that Financial services demand for your employees is
still strong. Great, but you hardly need a PhD in CompSci for
COBOL programming. Even for trivial app server applications.
If a person wants to do serious research and potentially make
lots of money, I would pick biotech and genetics. My point was
that just 15 years ago, a PhD in CompSci was a guaranteed
to make one wealthy. My, how things change in just a short time.
<satire>At leasr executives aren't being outsourced yet.</satire>

New Information Shows Bush Indecisive, Paranoid, Delusional

[factcheck]

37. It's not all like this...

I have to admit. My company has outsourced several jobs overseas.

This is a company that has seen consistent growth since 1996 and has recently seen a huge amount of growth.

We hired MANY people from here in the states and not a single person could 'cut it'.

First, there were the endless streams of resumes, most of which were pure garbage. We would find 1 potential candidate from every 10 resumes. Then there were the hours and hours (and days) of interviews, where, again, we would find 1 candidate from about every 5 or 6 interviewees. Then, after a month or so on the job, it became painfully evident that the work ethic was SO low that these people simply could not pull their weight. We went through several rounds of this.

I was the one who always said: As long as there are good people here in America who need jobs, we will keep those jobs here.

Unfortunately, I had to rethink that. We were not finding any good people, it was costing us a great deal of money and we simply could not spend several months finding a small handful of good workers.

So, we talked to a few companies in India. It became evident that their contract rates were comparatively low, but that the overall difficulty in working with them simply would not make sense for us. So we kept looking.

We now employ several people in Russia, Bulgaria, Germany, France and Australia.

In each of these cases, these people would have accepted considerably lower salaries than what we would pay here. Especially Russia and Bulgaria where the salaries would have been less than $12,000 per year.

However, we decided that simply would not be right. We were not outsourcing jobs in order to save money. We were outsourcing simply to find good workers. Therefore, these people are currently paid an average salary of about $40,000 per year.

It kills me to have to rely on overseas workers, but the work ethic I was seeing from people here was absolutely appalling and I could not simply halt all work while we spent a LOT of time finding just the right people.

Some of these overseas workers are interested, however, in actually coming here and living and working here (and spending money here, and paying taxes). So we are working on sponsoring some visas for several of them.

I firmly believe that 99% of the companies who outsource overseas do so in order to save money. Do they really? I wonder. My company dumped Sprint's wireless service (a fairly large contract in fact) at the beginning of this year and one of the major concerns was their outsourcing of customer service to India. I had too many dealings with them myself and too many employees complaining about dealing with their customer service.

You have companies like Dell whose high level of customer service used to be a big selling point for them, now they have some of the worst customer service in the industry after outsourcing to India.

I will be honest. On the surface, it seems that outsourcing simply costs Americans' jobs. However, I have heard that many economists indicate that outsourcing is actually beneficial to our economy. I would really like to read some articles on the theory behind this just to have all of the information. If anyone has seen anything on this, let me know!

[Peter1x9]

41. "It's not all like this..."

:grr:

[OhioChick]

42. RE: factcheck....

This is the standard big business response to save face in the public eye, a deception of the truth to justify outsourcing in order to still have appeal to US consumers that they are buying a product or service that is benefiting US business that supports the US worker. Judging by the list of countries you referenced in your post; I have to assume that your company is a software development company.

Any job you post on monster.com, dice.com, etc… is bound to have many resumes that get circle filed immediately. That was true back in the late 90’s when there was an abundance of talent. It sounds to me that you are looking in the wrong places. You cannot expect someone straight out of college to have the same quality and work ethics as a seasoned software architect that has 15 years of industry experience… Let me guess, you probably have a small staff of senior level architects and a few project managers here in the US. They are the ones that have to put in 70 hour weeks to manage the development process of the product because the overseas developers are working a shift that is 12 hours shifted from the requirements you as a boss impose on them. Then you have a counterpart project manager overseeing the foreign developers.

So, here you have a senior person in the U.S. writing up detailed architecture and functionality requirements documentation that is shipped off to a foreign land… only to have the foreign development team start developing the said product and do it incorrectly because there is an enormous language gap between the architect, to the U.S. project manager, to the offshore project manager to the offshore team.

Did you ever once sit down and think that maybe it’s not that you cannot find skilled software engineers… Could it be more like, people that have been around the block for a few years know how you and your company operate? Could you and your company have already made a poor name for yourself among the local software developers? Did you ever think for one minute that you manage an undesirable company for anyone that has skills?

You are so quick to state that American workers have a poor work ethic and cannot ‘cut it’ at your company… did you ever wonder why the people that pass your strict interviewing process, and surely have the skills required for the job, either leave your company for a less paying jobs; or are so depressed at showing up for work each day during the same hours that you work, and then go home at night and continue to work extended hours to make your product a success until they are burned out and fed up with doing double shift work? I doubt it. There is still an abundance of great developers, software engineers in this great land… Surely you are looking in the wrong places… try the local Wal-Mart, Wendy’s and Home Depot. That is where many of them are working these days, thanks to you and your desire to reduce your bottom line.

The lack of intellectual, skilled and hard working American workers is a myth. If you have been a software development company since 1996, like you have stated… have you ever thought of asking your current employees to help recruit people that they know to be outstanding in their eyes? I doubt it… they most likely have already told their acquaintances of the environment at your company. Most of them are likely reading the weekly classified ads for more ethical employers. Why don’t you just come clean and face the fact that you want to put more green in your pocket by hiring a large staff of lower paid, less skilled workers that reside offshore. At least I could respect you for being truthful. Shame on you.

[factcheck]

43. Nice...

I guess it makes people like you feel better to simply assume things and sling insults that are completely unfounded.

Let me give you an idea of what my company is like and what we have been through:

I started this company in 1996. Since then we have never seen a single quarter without growth.

Here in Colorado in the late '90s, it was truly an employee's market. People had their pick of where they wanted to work in the tech sector. We did not play the game of getting venture capital and wasting it on BS benefits. Instead I devised a sustainable business model and created a realistic benefits system (no BMWs, no massages). During the 'boom years', we had trouble finding people because they were looking for perks and 'what was in it for them'. So, we would advertise a job, we would get 10 responses and maybe find 1 person who we would hire. But, the difference then was that we ended up with some good, loyal people. There was no flood of prospective employees during that time as you insinuated. People had jobs so they were not flooding the market.

Then came the 'tech bust'. The bubble burst, people were put out on the streets by the companies who had non-viable business models, but LOTS of employee perks. Now the marketplace was flooded with job seekers. To this day, I get a minimum of 5 resumes sent to me each and every day. Fortunately, because of our sustainable model, our company actually thrived and grew due to the bust. So, we began hiring more people. And, over the last 2 years we have more than doubled our workforce.

However, the problem now is exactly the opposite of what you insinuate. There are too many experienced people looking for jobs. Back in the late '90s, we hired mostly fresh college grads, which was fine with me because I didn't have to break them of any bad habits. :) Now, however, I interview people from 25 to 50 years old!!! And I have hired people that fall everywhere in that age range. However, the actual problem is that these people WOULD work 50 or 60 hours per week, but they flat out sucked! The quality of work was questionable, they slacked more than worked and they simply did not know how to take responsibility. AND, I found more people who flat out lied on their resumes than those who didn't. Believe me, we verified their credentials and skills.

Now, in my company, here is what it is like to be an employee:

First, if you are working more than 40 hours per week, I believe you must be doing something wrong, so we have to figure out how you can be more efficient and get it done in 40 hours or less. No, this is not to save on overtime because every employee is on an annual salary. So, you get $40,000 per year and I expect you to be working 40 hours or less per week!

For benefits, I have a strict policy on sick days: if you are sick, stay home. Take care of yourself. There is no allotment on the number of sick days you can take. If you need to run some errands, take off and do it. If you abuse this, then we will chat about it. No one has yet been fired for abuse of this. This creates loyalty, IMHO. My people will actually be sick and stay home and will actually put in a couple hours of work from home because they honestly care. I think that is great! And, rather than losing a whole day as a personal day, more often than not, someone will take off for a few hours to go to the doctor, run to the bank and them come back!

Other benefits include: FULLY paid life insurance up to 3 times your annual salary, fully paid health insurance (we use Kaiser and have the highest plan they have so there are very minimal co-pays), fully paid dental and vision. We are working on adding more benefits like a cafeteria plan and some other things. In addition, those who live here in Colorado receive season ski passes for Vail Resorts and National Parks Golden Eagle passes. AND, several years ago, I instituted a 'powder day' rule. On any given day during ski season, up to 50% of my employees may declare a powder day. They can take off to ski. But only once per month. If you take off on a 6 inch day and it dumps 2 feet later that month. Sorry! :) Also, I regularly take employees on trips to reward them for their hard work; in addition to cash bonuses.

Sounds like a company that has made a bad name for itself, huh?

We owe 0 dollars to anyone outside the company. My family fully funded the company and it now fully funds itself. We have more than $50 million in assets and had $12 million in revenues last year and are on pace to hit $18 million this year.

Believe me, it was a very hard decision to hire some people overseas. But, I have to be honest, they tend to speak English better than most here in the US! They are hard workers and do very good work, otherwise I would not have kept them for 2 years now!

No kidding, I would literally have to hire a $30,000 per year employee to do nothing but sift through resumes, do interviews and employee training and, based on what we saw before, in 6 months, we would be lucky to find a single decent worker here.

That does not mean that all potential employees are bad. What it means is that, right now, there are so many people looking for work in this industry, that we would have to sift through 100 people (or more) just to get a single good worker. I don't have that kind of time or money, unfortunately.

And, you accused me of having a "desire to reduce bottom line"??? How so??? Did you miss the part where we are paying an average of $40,000 per year for these people overseas? This is the same amount we would be paying here overall!! I am not saving any money. Well, unless you count the fact that I get more work for my dollar than what I was getting out of the people I hired here.

Believe me, I would MUCH rather hire people here at home!

[NJGeek]

48. Agreed.

Also see my post "a bit overrated" below.

I run a an upstart IT consulting / software dev firm in NJ. If there was such a bad talent market out there, how the heck could we survive, nevertheless be an upstart company? I think many people get caught up with the whole outsourcing meme. Yes -- there are huge negative effects, but in IT it is not cut and dry. The IT sector cross ALL business sectors. IT folks are highly trained, logical, smart people who work in every type of company, in almost every department. The fall of the US IT worker does not HAVE to be.

Anyway, I was really glad to see that I'm not the only person on the board that doesn't have a cartoonish view of the outsourcing situation in this country.

[lovuian]

58. I have a suggestion for you If you like Russian employees

take your businesss and go to Russia

and then you can make tons of money off of very effecient workers who will slave for you for 13,000 dollars and be grateful and you will be come rich beyond your dreams

Problem is You US companies want American protection of our laws because in Russia if your a wealthy Billionaire you can have you company confiscated by the state and then slam you into jail

So go ahead and take this country down the road you want to go because you will depend on foreign workers so much that when WWIII comes and shuts down all these companies you will be looking at major security risks and sabotage

Wake up or Get Out of America... obviously us lazy Americans are not what you are looking for but PLEASE don't ask for Protection when the Russians put you in jail

[OhioChick]

59. re: fatcheck

No, it was not me making the initial assumptions and the slinger of insults sitting in the poll position; that would be you, sir.

From your first post:
quote:
“We hired MANY people from here in the states and not a single person could 'cut it'.”
“I started this company in 1996. Since then we have never seen a single quarter without growth.”


Surely you must contribute some of this success to the intellect of the IT staff that actually made this happen for you?!? Do you tell them daily that they do not ‘cut it’? You seem to take offense to me telling you that your business practices don’t ‘cut it’.

quote:
“However, the actual problem is that these people WOULD work 50 or 60 hours per week, but they flat out sucked!”


Can you attribute any of this to your hiring practices? For years, the majority of software companies looking for skilled workers in the IT field have mandated that potential employees will be tested in order to prove their skills. This is made clear before initial contact has been made between. This would limit a flood of worthless, green, and inexperienced applicants. Ever think of hiring a technical staffing company that pre-screens potentials prior to having you spend your day interviewing them?

quote:
“First, if you are working more than 40 hours per week, I believe you must be doing something wrong, so we have to figure out how you can be more efficient and get it done in 40 hours or less. No, this is not to save on overtime because every employee is on an annual salary. So, you get $40,000 per year and I expect you to be working 40 hours or less per week!”


As I mentioned in my previous post; when a project is outsourced overseas, there IS a time differential that forces the U.S. counterpart that is RESPONSIBLE for the delivery milestone. You mean to tell me that that a single person offering guidance to the offshore programmer team of, lets just say 20 people, can do this in a 40 hour week... I’d love to have this person working here at my company… and if you say he flat out sucks... please send him this way, I’m sure I can offer him a position where his skills are appreciated. Do you push the responsibility on to this same person for the assurance that the resulting product meets the requirements set forth by the design requirements documentation?

I can only speak from my own experiences in that I have yet to see good programming practices put into action by any offshore consultancy. I have debugged through hundreds of thousands of lines of uncommented code and functions that have no descriptive manifests. The fact is that if you outsource to a foreign country, such as India, you will have the exact same problems that companies faced in the workplace 4 to 6 years ago in this country: An explosive expansion in the market and wages where it is an employee’s market and not an employer’s market. You will be shielded from the constant turn-over as current employees hop from company to company in order to expedite their own personal gain.

An Indian software developer earning a salary of 10K annually is among the top 5% wage earner in their country. Are you claiming that these ‘kids’ fresh out school, that are fulfilling the need for the abundance of U.S. outsourced projects can ‘cut it’ over a person that has been doing this type of work since they were potty training? If so, you have absolutely no respect for the staff that has made you and your family business so successful of the past decade.

From your second post:
quote:
“And, over the last 2 years we have more than doubled our workforce.”


Since you have more than doubled your workforce, and could not even hire one person that could fit your bill here in the U.S., this tells me that more than half of your company now resides overseas. In my eyes, you are now a foreign company. Rather than labeling all American software professionals with the “they suck” post-it… we should look to you to be adorned with that label, for the proliferation of the blood-letting of American ingenuity and technical superiority that once made this a great nation.

quote:
“And, you accused me of having a "desire to reduce bottom line"??? How so??? Did you miss the part where we are paying an average of $40,000 per year for these people overseas? This is the same amount we would be paying here overall!! I am not saving any money. Well, unless you count the fact that I get more work for my dollar than what I was getting out of the people I hired here.”


A Senior Level Software Architect in Colorado for $40k/year… could be part of your problem in your hiring practices!

I did not miss that part at all… Do you pay local, state and federal taxes on these offshore individuals? Social Security? Do you cover them under your corporate healthcare plan? How about life insurance? Did you receive a tax refund check last year that was to promote economic growth in the U.S. and reinvest it offshore? Did you not use ANY of the tax loopholes offered to companies for outsourcing? Oh yes sir…it did affect your bottom line, and it did give you personal gain. So keep on bragging about your $50 million in assets. When these countries economies bust because companies come to realize that in the long haul, software developed onshore is delivered on time and with fewer errors and are on budget; because the onshore developers actually understand and take pride in the work that they do… you will be the first on in line slinging the blame at the offshore developers. Your record shows this by you making millions off of onshore employees and then belittling them by stating that they all cannot “cut it” and “suck”.

Go ahead and enjoy your cake while you have it, sir.

[factcheck]

66. Why I make the big bucks...

Because I can actually read. :)

"Do you tell them daily that they do not ‘cut it’? You seem to take offense to me telling you that your business practices don’t ‘cut it’."

This is a great assumption. No I don't. In fact, I try to encourage my employees as much as possible. In fact, I have made the mistake of keeping some on board longer than I should have simply in hopes that their work ethic would improve.

I don't take offense to you telling me anything. I take offense to your gross misunderstanding of what reality is. And I guess it is a little frustrating listening to a litany of BS from someone who is far less successful than myself. It is easy to complain at your bettors, I guess. But, I wouldn't have first-hand experience with that.

"Can you attribute any of this to your hiring practices?"

Ya know, possibly. I try to be involved in hiring as much as possible, but as we have grown that becomes more and more difficult. The problem is that our growth is so HUGE that we have been in a constant state of hiring for more than 2 years now and we constantly need people yesterday. So, I will admit that there have been times that we have simply hired 5 people on a probationary basis to see who would really do a good job. It hurts, though, when none of them are up to par with our existing programmers.

"You mean to tell me that that a single person offering guidance to the offshore programmer team of, lets just say 20 people, can do this in a 40 hour week"

Yes. In fact, I have project managers here who specifically requested this because they would be working really odd hours anyway. So, they do something like put in 4 or 5 hours in the 'main' part of the day, say from 10am - 2pm so they can interact with our people here and then they will put in a few hours late at night and interact with the people overseas. Now, keep in mind, too, that we have locations in 3 timezones here in the US, so time differences are always a factor, but with current technology, we have no problem dealing with it. As for the 40 hours a week. I mandate that. I do not believe people should work more than that. If they do, they burn out, they become unhappy with their job, etc.

Maybe it is a bit telling that, since 1996, at all of our locations, including the chain of retail stores we operated before spinning them off into their own company, not a single person has ever quit from my company. In fact, they would all tell you that they would not leave even for a higher salary because their overall quality of life is what is really important to them.

And, I did mention that we do not outsource to India. We have been very selective with who we hired overseas. You say you have never seen this succeed. Well, take a look at my company and YOU JUST DID! Double-digit growth per quarter. The numbers tell the story.

"Since you have more than doubled your workforce, and could not even hire one person that could fit your bill here in the U.S., this tells me that more than half of your company now resides overseas."

That is another great assumption. The ONLY people we have hired overseas are programmers, and the vast majority are junior level programmers. We have hired quite a few people in the states, just not programmers (and that is what this thread was about). So you really jumped to a conclusion there and missed big time! :)

"A Senior Level Software Architect in Colorado for $40k/year"

Well, if I ever need a Chief Assumption Architect, I will give you a call.

No employee who works for our company can make less than $30,000 per year currently because of a contract we put in place a long time ago: No one in the company can make more than 10 times the salary of the lowest paid employee. The only people making that little are entry level employees. As for $40,000, our junior level programmers will start anywhere from $30,000 - 45,000 per year based on ability. Mid-level developers (often those with multiple skills) will go from $45,000 - 60,000. Senior level programmers and project managers make between $60,000 and 85,000 currently.

And for those working for us overseas, we pay exactly the same as we do here.

"Do you pay local, state and federal taxes on these offshore individuals? Social Security?"

No. We CAN'T pay any of these things for them. But, we are working with several of them to sponsor visas so they can come live and work here with the possibility of becoming US citizens.

"Do you cover them under your corporate health care plan? How about life insurance?"

Can't. Unfortunately. We do try to take care of them as much as we can, but this is actually very difficult. There are a lot of roadblocks in this arena.

"Did you receive a tax refund check last year that was to promote economic growth in the U.S. and reinvest it offshore? Did you not use ANY of the tax loopholes offered to companies for outsourcing?"

My company? Sorry, we received no such refund.

There are tax loopholes offered for this? Perhaps you could steer me toward some! I am very well versed in the tax code and can take great advantage of it personally, but I was not aware of any loopholes that would make outsourcing any easier or beneficial. If anyone knows about these, let me know so that I can take advantage of them! After all, the less my company pays in taxes overall, the better because if I drop our taxes say 1%, I hire another worker here in the states (we are actually in bad need of some administrative level people right now).

This is kind of funny. Well, it would be if your understanding of business, and especially my business, was not so childlike. My employees would all, to a person, laugh in your face for the comments you have made.

Like I said: I HATE having to hire people overseas. Send me some good programmers and I would hire them in a heartbeat. The problem is that there are SO many of them looking for work right now that one has to wade through a LOT of crap to find a single 'diamond'. But, this doesn't surprise me. I have seen this sort of thing for many years: people who just want to show up for work to collect a paycheck and do the very minimum of what is required of them. It doesn't matter how much or how little they are paid, they still act this way. I think this has become a great problem in our country and, quite honestly, I think a large portion of our workforce simply is not worth the money they are being paid! People have become lazy and seem to feel entitled. Work ethic has been tossed out the window completely. Once upon a time, in our country, most people knew what it meant to put in an honest day's work. I think too many have forgotten that and it is sad. And until I can find everyone I need right here at home to put in that honest day's work, I am put in the unenviable position of having to make a hard decision and send jobs overseas.

[OhioChick]

74. RE: Why I make the big bucks...

"There are tax loopholes offered for this? Perhaps you could steer me toward some! I am very well versed in the tax code and can take great advantage of it personally, but I was not aware of any loopholes that would make outsourcing any easier or beneficial. If anyone knows about these, let me know so that I can take advantage of them! After all, the less my company pays in taxes overall, the better because if I drop our taxes say 1%, I hire another worker here in the states (we are actually in bad need of some administrative level people right now)."

If you are so versed in the tax code, and have never heard of unrepatriated earnings, then you are not as well versed as you think you are.. maybe you should outsource the job of your CPA because he is not cutting it for you.

"This is kind of funny. Well, it would be if your understanding of business, and especially my business, was not so childlike. My employees would all, to a person, laugh in your face for the comments you have made."

Maybe so... maybe you should offer this thread in your company newsletter... Let them see how you speak of them and the many you relieved of their positions because they "suck", and how many of them you are holding on too for all too long. Let them speak for themselves. I doubt I would be the one getting the last laugh as your companies productivity and profit margins take a nose dive due to the rantings of the Chief Pompous Ass.

"I don't take offense to you telling me anything. I take offense to your gross misunderstanding of what reality is. And I guess it is a little frustrating listening to a litany of BS from someone who is far less successful than myself. It is easy to complain at your bettors, I guess. But, I wouldn't have first-hand experience with that."

Oh, believe me, I understand reality and a line of BS when I see it. You are speculating on my level of success in contrast to yourself. Maybe you should be a little more hesitant in judging how high on the hog you actually are. From my perspective, I am looking down at you. And to clear one thing up... I am not complaining to anyone that I would classify as one of my "bettors".

[factcheck]

88. Ummm...

Unrepatriated earnings refers to earnings made from investing overseas and keeping that money overseas. For example, if I opened an office overseas and created it as its own company there, I could keep profits in that country and never bring them here. I would pay no US taxes on those earnings.

We do not have any unrepatriated earnings. The employees that work for us overseas are only paid a wage. But, those people do not spend that money here in the US, so I would honestly rather have people here in the US spending their money here and supporting other businesses here. Well, they likely spend some of their money on US goods, but that is not good enough to me.

LOL!!! I never said that my employees "suck". I said that the people who cannot cut it in my company "suck". That is a fact. I could offer statements from my employees, but I would be accused of being some sort of fascist. You can believe what you want, but I am responsible for dozens of families here in the US. Yes, that is exactly how I look at it. The decisions I have to make always have to take into consideration all of my employees and their families because if I screw up, I may be putting one or more of them out of work. That is why I am very careful in my decisions.

It is the general nature of people like you to think that they are on some higher ground judging all of the people around them.

But, let me ask you: How many people are YOU responsible for? How many jobs do you create in our country? How much do YOU donate to charitable causes and other causes you believe in? Just how much do YOU contribute to our economy and your fellow Americans?

[podnoi]

75. Damn Lazy American Workers!

I learned years ago that the ones that complain like this are either covering up for their own lazyness or have superiority complexes and are usually far less efficient than they imagine.

Whenever I hear people repeating the propaganda that Americans are such poor workers I cringe. It is proven that Americans work more hours and are more productive than any other country in the world.

Secondly, how in the world did we manage to start most of the IT industry here? We made this market and advanced it.

I have lived in other countries and I am continually astounded at how quickly and easily Americans discount each other. Most countries help their fellow national. That is the reason India does so well. They help each other (at least in their own caste). They hire from their own community first.

It is a fallacy that overseas workers are better than their American counterparts. I have seen entirely unqualified individuals hired simply because of the hype. I have also watched as their community supported them and aided them. Helping them after work, providing answers when they got stuck. Indeed, we may lose out in the long run. Not because we are less talented or "lazy", but because our competition works as a team, manipulates us and our system, and helps their own find work rather than trying to get them fired, While we take each other for granted, put down our fellow citizen, and go only for the quick buck.

[orpupilofnature57]

77. fascism at the work place,a ..long time trick of management

useless leaches, coming from a ditch digger.

[factcheck]

86. A great country....

Actually, I said that a large number of American workers are poor workers. I don't know that it is laziness or complacency or a sense of entitlement, or a "They are only paying me $10 per hour so I am going to sit around and complain how bad my job is and do very little work and constantly look for another job" thing.

Sorry, but if YOU accept a job for $6.00 or $600 per hour, it does not matter! YOU accepted the job, YOU should give your best effort at all times! I heard this crap when I was in the corporate world and it made me sick!

As for comparison to other countries, Americans work TOO MANY hours, not more hours. I do believe this is a part of the problem why people hate their jobs and moral is generally low. Here in America, the average amount of vacation time offered per year is 10 days. In Europe, it is 6 weeks!

We in America think it is great to work 50 or 60 (or more) hours per week. In Europe, they don't do this. Does that mean we are better workers? No, that means we are stupid! We burn out on our jobs, we are overworked, we begin to hate our jobs and complain incessantly!

Think about it this way: If I owned a company (which I do, but not one like this), and I hired you on an annual salary basis, I get you to work 60 hours per week and I have one other person like you, I have the 2 of you doing the equivalent work of 3 people. Good idea? Maybe for the company's bottom line. Tell the guy in the unemployment line who could be that 3rd person that it is a good idea.

Yes, we are a GREAT country because we work harder than people in other countries. It is OK to hate your job, EVERYONE hates their job! Just go home and take it out on your wife or husband or the guy in the other car on the freeway or anyone else around you! What a GREAT country!

If you have lived in other countries, you know exactly what I am talking about.

[TheKingfish]

81. Curious

So do you do the interviewing and actual selecting of the offshored workers?

[factcheck]

87. Answer...

As much as I do here. I like to get a sense of what kind of person these people are. That helps to weed out anyone who I believe is not going to 'cut it' in the long run. I don't want to waste a lot of time training someone and getting them up to speed on a project only to find they are not up to par with the rest of my people.

But, by and large, I trust the decisions of my management staff.

I would love to personally hire every person working for me, but that has become harder as we have grown.

[H3Dakota]

83. So, you can read...

Can you read your own postings on this subject objectively? From where many of us sit (regardless of position/current employment situation), the arrogance conveyed in your messages on this topic is only surpassed by the current President.

Perhaps your attitudes have something to do with your difficulties in finding good, loyal, hard-working employees.

No one in your company makes less than $30k? Yet your junior level programmers start at $30k? One must assume that either a) your company is far too small to need a mail room, so you do not have a mail clerk making $30k or b) you DO have a mail room and your mail clerks make the same money as junior programmers. Either way, I know of no good sized company that doesn't need lower level clerical staffing of some sort. So your junior level programmers make the same money as, your clerks. Interesting.

[factcheck]

91. The facts...

No, we do not have a mail room.

Our lowest level administrative staff does, indeed, make $30K or more.

Why? Because I don't hire anyone to 'sweep floors'.

For example, our bookkeeper is a very competent 'accountant'. No, she is not a CPA, but she does a LOT of work so she deserves that kind of money. The people who answer our phones, in our data centers for example, are highly skilled techs. THEY deserve that money.

No one does simply menial tasks here, so their overall contribution is what counts.

THAT is how I determine wages. What is the overall contribution to the company. Yes, junior level programmers only contribute enough to make $30K in some cases. Often they are being trained (or better, re-trained) by existing programmers. As their contribution level increases, they make more money.

As for my attitudes. Well, first, I DO have dozens of loyal, hard working employees here in the US. It has simply become more difficult to find more because there is so much flotsam to sift through these days. Let's be honest, there are a LOT of good workers looking for jobs out there, but there are MANY more who are not so good. And wading through those who are not so good has made it rather prohibitive to hire programmers here. We are growing at a pace that has made it impossible for me to spend a month hiring even a single programmer. Instead, I can find someone good overseas in a week or less. I know it sucks, but like I said before: what am I supposed to do? Turn work away? That could result in existing people losing their jobs. Not going to happen.

Do I come off as having a bit of a 'holier-than-thou' attitude? Yes. Why? Because I am frustrated by the process. Then, I get people who likely do not employ a single other person, or maybe don't even run their own business, or MAYBE employ 2 or 3 other people trying to tell me that what I am doing is wrong. Sorry, but what I am doing is looking out for the best interests of my people. To do that I must do what is best for my company first. Am I trying to transition over to ONLY US workers, certainly. But, that is not going to happen overnight, and that honestly may never happen completely. If I can find good, solid workers, then great, but if not, I am not going to simply hire just anyone.

Maybe you all do not understand. One of the reasons my company has been so successful is the quality of work that we do. When we get a client, we don't lose them to other companies because the work we do is so solid. Therefore, I have to be honest, many people who might be considered good workers by others' standards come to work for my company and simply are not good enough for my company. Is it wrong for me to have higher standards? I don't think so. I believe that our standards for good work have been lowered over time so that what is considered good work these days would not have passed the test 50 years ago. I believe in good, quality work and believe that we have lost much of the work ethic of our grandfathers and their grandfathers. So, yes, I am picky. I will not hire someone who I believe will work for us for 6 months and then leave just to make more money. I compensate my people MORE than fairly, so anyone looking to make more money has an inflated view of what they are truly worth. They would likely go to another company and BS them into thinking they are more than they really are. Then move on in another 6 months.

Do you not find it odd that NO ONE that works at my company has EVER quit their job here? Sure, I have fired people, but not one single person has left because THEY wanted to?

Maybe we are a cult. We brainwash them by offering them horrible things like a good solid wage, up to 100% telecommuting if they choose, great bonuses (cash and other), FULLY paid health care, FULLY paid life insurance, VERY generous sick/personal leave, VERY generous vacation time, a healthy work environment where moral is EVERYTHING!

I think I have heard of this type of horror before.... it was called... let's see, what was that term again?? .... oh yeah.... it was:

THE AMERICAN DREAM!

I am such a horrible person to have built a company such as this.

[keischin]

54. I've supervised full-time and contract software people.....

some were extraordinarilly good and some not. Most of the contractors were expensive, but this was in the late 90s when it was hard to find good ones. One problem I had was with non-citizens with temporary visas who only seemed interested in exporting technology or skills back to their country. I've never resorted to outsourcing and I don't plan to unless we grow large enough where there is a sizeable customer base within the "outsourced" country.

[Must_B_Free]

61. in highly detailed work

there is too much nuance required for effective communication. I find most non native english speakers I work with now don't really understand what I am asking them.

[factcheck]

67. You know....

I think this is likely true in dealing with those in the middle east. That is where I have had that sort of problem. Not in outsourcing, because we do not outsource to the middle east, but rather in talking to these companies at all. Also, we have been in a position where some work was being done for clients in middle eastern countries so we would have to communicate with them and I found it very difficult, indeed. Now, I do have the benefit of having worked with many people from the middle east in other dealings so I have gotten a little more used to the accent and general language usage, but if I am finding it difficult, I can only imagine what other people deal with.

We have people working in Germany, Russia, Bulgaria, France and Australia. Believe me, those people speak better English than many people I meet here in the states! Not to mention, we have people, including myself who are fluent in all but Bulgarian (and I am picking up some of that). Also, what is cool is that most of those people overseas speak 3 languages fluently as well (their native one, English and often German or French).

So far, we have run into no language barriers at all. Well, only here it seems. :) I swear that I have had to let people go here in the states because they simply didn't seem to understand direction or communications with everyone else in the company.

[Merlin]

70. Oh, my, that hiring process is just soooo strenuous. I don't know how ...

you could have even tried. So many resumes. So few qualified candidates. Gosh, I'll bet it took somebody hours to sift through and interview, and ... oh geeze what a pain.

And, you know, it's especially true right now because there are so many programmers looking for work, that you get just a ton of resumes, and that makes thing soooo difficult. Damn, a company like yours just might need to make use of, say, a personnel department, or, well, maybe, a headhunter.

And you will forgive me if I completely and totally disbelieve that you are paying anybody anywhere more than triple what they ask for because you are so highly principalled. Just how fucking naive do you think we liberals really are??? Just wondering.

[factcheck]

97. It is hard...

The last round of hiring we did when before we finally ended up hiring some overseas people took us 3 months from the point where we started looking at resumes to the point where we had fired the last person hired in that round.

As for the amount of work, here you go:

Reading through 100 resumes takes me, and my management staff, about 3 full days. Then, say we narrow those down to 10 candidates we want to interview. We then take a hard look at their qualifications, etc. There is another 5 hours. Then we bring them in for interviews. Let's say they can all come one after the other. Two days solid, minimum. Then at least one full day of verifying credentials, checking references, etc.

Then we hire one or more. One full day of orientation, filling out papers, etc. Three more days of in depth training. If they are junior level, it will be at least a week after that before they are actually able to turn out any work.

So, we have AT LEAST two business weeks just to get them through the training class. And, the time that me, and my management staff, invest into this process is huge. Do you have any idea what the cost is for us to spend, let's say, 30 or 40 hours EACH in this process???

As for headhunters and personnel companies, sorry, I have tried that route. Too many send over people who, while pre-screened, simply are not up to the standards of my company.

A personnel department? That is actually one of my next tasks. I will be hiring 3 people to handle this as soon as I can find the time to interview people. :) Kind of a catch-22 situation. I think THAT will be a good move forward for us.

As for how naive I think you are? Extremely. But, I am entitled to my opinion just as you are yours.

And, I would be happy to put you in touch with people overseas who are, indeed, making AT LEAST 3 times what they expected, but your overly skeptical mind (not a healthy thing) would just believe that I am making them say that.

[Merlin]

107. Since you insist your efforts have been conscientious and exceptional...

perhaps I can put you in touch with any of a number of companies who specialize in providing contract programmers--no muss, no fuss, no obligations, no benefits. They are able to grasp exactly what you need and find people precisely qualified to fulfill that need. And no language barrier! Of course you pay more, but that doesn't seem to be a problem, since you're thinking of adding 3 whole people to a new personnel dept. Let's see, the cost of that would be, hmmmmmm...

Funny you don't have to go thru the same screening process with foreign workers. Or maybe somebody else does it. Do they get paid? But you can't find ANYBODY in the good old US of A capable of doing the same kind of screening for you? Forgive me for being such a skeptic, but...

[AndyTiedye]

119. You Were Trying To Hire During The Boom

It was very difficult to hire good software engineers then, because they
all had good jobs already, most with lucrative stock options that provided
a strong incentive to stay put. Trying to hire then, one either had
to make very good offers or scrape the bottom of the barrel.

AT THAT TIME. hiring overseas might get better workers, because the
labor market wasn't already tapped-out.

NOW, the situation is somewhat reversed. There are thousands of
good engineers looking for work here, while most of the best in
India have been hired already, and people are starting to complain
about the quality of the workers they are hiring there now.

[NJGeek]

46. a bit overstated

I run an IT consulting firm. We have plenty of opportunities with clients; do you know what our biggest stumbling block is? Lack of American IT talent. Believe it our not, at least in the financial services sector that we work in our clients WANT highly skilled American programmers.

The reality is that there is 1 trained American programmer compared to 9 immigrant programmers here in the US. Outsourcing definitely does affect our business, but so far it has been limiting to depressing rate gains (what we charge our clients).

How do we plan to avoid the doom and gloom presented in this article? We look to perform software architecture and integration. For the non-geeks out there, software architecture is akin to building architecture. You need to be local to the client and there is a tremendous amount of resposibility. Integration typically means customizing one or a combination of off-the-self software products. Again, localism is key.

What does this all mean? By focusing on architecture, integration, design, and quality assurance, American IT workers can stay ahead of the outsourcing trend, perhaps for the forseeable future. Even "lower tier" IT related roles like jr. programmer or entry-level network engineer are required to implement this work.

So yes, US programmers are suffering, but from what I see its more from a dearth in quantity than it is from any global trade influence. FUD articles like these feed this problem, as undergraduates become hesistant to enter IT fields when they hear they may never get a decent paying job in IT. The reality is that software developer salaries are up in 2004 (1), to an average, based on region, that pushes 80k for development and 97k for management.


The average respondent reports a 5% raise this year. The median salary for staff climbed steadily from $70,000 in 2000 to $74,000 and $77,000 in the ensuing two years. This year, it ticks up to $80,000—a 3% increase from last year’s aggregate data. The lowest-paid staff, in the 25th percentile, reports a correction back to 2002 levels at $65,000. The median salary for managers is $97,000, and mean pay dropped from $100,000 in 2003 to $99,000 in 2004.
...
Programmer $66K
Programmer/Analyst $70K
Technical Support Analyst $75K
Business Analyst $77K
Database Administrator $78K
Software Engineer $79K
Systems Analyst $82K
Systems Programmer $83K
Project Leader $88K
Software Developer $99K

Not bad, and in the hot IT areas like NYC, DC, Seattle, Bay Area, Boston, etc the pay is much greater than whats listed above.

[Misunderestimator]

50. In my company, it's not even worth it to TRY to hire an American

programmer... the policy is to offshore as much as possible, and if you need onshore resources, you get them from offshore vendors who provide foreign programmers (mainly from India). Not to say that they aren't extremely good, the ones I work with are (though you have to sift through good and bad to find them, no different than when hiring Americans), but it's still a very discouraging practice. I believe that almost ALL programming jobs will go to foreign nations if this trend continues.

[are_we_united_yet]

51. I don't agree entirely

Good programmers do more than write software. They are good at writing reliable, fault tolerant, well designed software. This is more than a skill IMHO since anybody (even me) can write crappy code that works. Good programmers are also debugging complex legacy code and they know quite a bit about the interplay with software and hardware for various platforms. They know about software and hardware architecture, design and OS fundamentals, threading, multitasking etc as well as the traditional IT stuff like networking. They also understand the finer details like boundary alignment, stack dumps assembly implications and so forth. American programmers that are paid the higher salaries are typically very knowledgeable in these areas and that is why they are still employed with the XYZ corporation/company.

While many others are "learning" these skills, few are VERY VERY good at this. I think the competition has heated up but much of the <X_country> has the good cheap programmers is hype (not all but some).

My opinion.

[ItsTheMediaStupid]

52. Unionize all the guys running cables, etc

This country is ripe for another round of unionizing.

If the company offshores jobs, shut them down. No backups, no new cabling, nothing.

[LibDemAlways]

57. I have a friend who

worked for awhile as an independent contractor fixing the shoddy work done by foreign programmers. He made big money at it, too. Ultimately, you get what you pay for.

[Eloriel]

60. Well, I did my very little bit

I've read the whole thread and find it fascinating and provocative. I imagine some will not be surprised that I too am skeptical that SOME companies just can't seem to find any good programming talent here in the U.S. :shrug:

In any case, back to my very little bit (tho not for programmers, alas). After calling tech support at my IT -- Earthlink -- recently and getting soemone in India, I found another ISP and am canceling Earthlink on Monday when their bs office opens again. This is after 12+ years with Mindspring (which then merged with Earthlink).

I will continue to do my part to protest the outsourcing of tech jobs as I become aware of opportunities to do so.

[OhioChick]

62. bravo!

great actions speak loud! :toast:

good work!

[factcheck]

68. Hey...

I agree too. I despise companies who are sending jobs overseas simply to cut costs.

That is not why my company has hired some programmers overseas. We did it to remain in business. When I have to hire 10 programmers and get them working right away, I have to do it as quickly as possible or make a client wait while we go through a long screening process. Not going to happen. Should I simply turn away work?

Anyway, it is sad because Earthlink and Mindspring were very good companies. Another one is Dell. And another is Sprint. I find this all the time when I call customer service that I am talking to a guy named Todd who sounds like, is it Abu? The guy on the Simpsons who runs the store?

Now, I have heard that some economists say that outsourcing is actually GOOD for our economy. I have not researched any actual theory on this, but I don't know how much theory would help when I have family members who have indeed lost their job to outsourcing to Mexico and Singapore in particular.

[OhioChick]

71. RE: Hey...

Did your family members that lost their jobs to Mexico and Singapore lose them because they were not willing to put in an honest days work? Maybe it was because their work ethic sucked... oh, maybe it was because they could not read like you! So that I am not accused you or conjuring speculation... answer me this... do you think the companies that employed your family members and laid them off was justified... was ok that your family members lost their jobs to foreign counterparts? Surely, since you make the big bucks and feel the need for others to look up to you in awe and amazement to your wealth (not your accomplishments, your employees are the ones that did the work), i'm sure that you threw them a bone in the form of tuition money to a community college to enhance their skills, right?

You stated that "No one in the company can make more than 10 times the salary of the lowest paid employee". You do not make more than $300K... oh sorry, i thought i was speaking with someone that actually owned a successful business...

[VegasWolf]

72. Good post. Don't get too excited, I'm an ex IBM executive, this

guy sounds strictly like a Mom and Pop organization.

New Information Shows Bush Indecisive, Paranoid, Delusional

[factcheck]

84. So much hate....

Do you really hate the world that much??

"do you think the companies that employed your family members and laid them off was justified"

Not from my point of view. I do not know all of the economics of it, but my belief at this point is that any company that moves jobs overseas purely to cut costs is wrong.

My accomplishments are quite clear. My employees work very hard and I appreciate everything they do. In return, I try to look out for their interests as best I can. I also run a company in a manner that they do not have to worry about their jobs being here each and every day. Our core workforce has no risk of losing their jobs to people overseas because they are hard workers and contribute to the company. I am not going to move their jobs overseas even if I could pay someone 1/100th the money to do the same work!

"You do not make more than $300K"

Just let those assumptions fly!

But, I guess technically you are right! My salary is exactly $300K per year. I 'can' also take additional disbursements from profits, but I choose to reinvest that money. I don't believe it would be fair to 'cheat' the system I designed by technically making that 10 times more, but then taking 100 or 200 thousand more in disbursements and bonuses. That is what goes on in the rest of 'corporate America' and I have to be honest: I think that 99% of corporations and their executives are doing it wrong.

I guess I would have to disagree with your definition of a "successful business" because if mine is not, then I would rather be "unsuccessful" by your definition. :)

[VegasWolf]

85. You claim that you make 300K, but your ability to articulate says 30k

New Information Shows Bush Indecisive, Paranoid, Delusional

[factcheck]

92. That is fine....

So I am just a regular person who has built his way up in this country. I never pretended to be Harvard educated. I dropped out of the University of South Florida with one semester left in their Bachelor degree program.

If you would like me to be articulate, however I can do that as well. I am simply typing up Internet posts, not business articles that would take some time to prepare.

If you would like to debate the fine points of business and economic theory, I can do that as well.

But, I have to be honest, I am not trying to impress anyone here. Why should I? What do YOU have to offer?

Although, is it not interesting that my grammar and overall usage far exceeds that of 90% of the posts here?

<cheap shot>You believe what you want to believe, but while you get to sit in your little cubicle 5 days per week and look forward to sitting in front of the TV on the weekends and the 10 days of vacation time that you use to go camp by your local lake because you cannot afford to actually go anywhere... I get to drive a $115,000 toy... ski 50+ days, travel the world and see and do things you can only dream of (my wife and I are doing Everest in a year and a half!). And better yet! I am happy! I do not NEED the money to be happy. I have found happiness just sitting on top of a mountain with my feet dangling over the edge of a 1,000 foot ledge simply contemplating the world. I have found happiness in exploring a 3 foot area of alpine meadow for hours and marveling at the myriad of life that small area encompasses! Can you say the same? While you are stuck in traffic with your frustration fed by too much caffeine, I am enjoying laughing with my employees and sharing stories and deciding who had more fun at our last company outing!

The money just makes life a little more comfortable, the happiness comes from all of the little things that I get to enjoy.

What have YOU accomplished?

[VegasWolf]

94. You know, articulate people can express their point of view without

making up fake stories about their own accomplishments.

Economic theory is independent of your life history.

BTW, factcheck sounds distinctly like a FREEPER name.

New Information Shows Bush Indecisive, Paranoid, Delusional

[factcheck]

96. More insults...

I know, I am not articulate and I made up everything..... according to you.

It is easiest for someone like yourself to insult me and believe that I am making up everything because then you don't have to actually debate with facts.

As for my 'name'. Sorry, but the first post I ever made here was a sort of 'fact check'. It was the first thing that came to mind. :)

I am DEFINITELY NOT a 'freeper'.

Not that it matters, but maybe it does to you, would you like some proof of any of my claims?

[wellstone_democrat]

98. Ah, finally someone catches it

the arguments and the not-quite-experienced reading of the tax code, etc. all through this thread by the "champion of outsourcing due to the heart break of lazy American labor" says 30K alright but to me, who by the way earns a living parsing such things..., the poster sounds less like a "businessman" than an operative of some group that wants to spread this seemingly *reasonable* angle on outsourcing.

interesting...

[factcheck]

101. No..

I was just trying to explain the difference between companies who outsource to cut costs and those who, I believe, are 'forced' to outsource for other reasons even though that might not be what they really WANT to do.

I assure you that I am not an 'operative of some group' of any kind.

Although, if I am 'not-quite-experienced' enough, in your opinion, in my reading of the tax code, please feel free to cite examples and tell me where you think I am wrong and why.

[sweetheart]

93. I think, factcheck, that you'll find most folks on DU

are not sympathetic with the "business owner's" mentality. I hope
you hang out more and discuss over the longer term, as i'd love to
hear your views on broader ranging issues.

Most people on DU don't make so much money, and many have never
formed a business. The POV you express, must be tempered by the
reality that that type is a 1000:1 minority at best.

As well, you exhibit the classic error in judgement that a business
person makes when stepping in to the political sphere, especially
a sphere where socialism is held rather high. Your vote is equal
to ohiochicks, and your words are equal as well, even though in
your business world you are superior, here in politics land, you
are a voice.

There is a lovely passage from the book "the iron heel" by jack
london, where ernest everhard (the progatonist), is talking to some
business capitalists about their views. What you have expressed
on this thread is spookily similar to that discussion, so much so,
that i think you would really enjoy the book.

Here, you are in the temple of democracy, and humility becomes you
no matter what your salary is. Many here who are more discreet,
make more money than you do, and would never come out with such
pressing remarks... especially given that there are lots of folks
on DU who are having a REALLY hard time, out of work for years in
areas of the country unlucky to not have businesses such as yours
hiring.

I'm sure you would reflect that the computers, internet and
stuff that you've built your business success on top of, were paid
for by the USA taxpayers, like ohiochick, and that some credit for
your success really does belong to every person on DU.

Here is a small passage from "the iron heel":
When they want to do a thing (business owners), in business of
course, they must wait till there arises in their brains, somehow,
a religious, or ethical, or philosophic, concept that the thing,
is right. And then they go ahead and do it, unwitting that one
of the weaknesses of the human mind is that the wish is parent
to the thought. No matter what they want to do, the sanction
always comes. They are casuists. They are Jesuitical. They
even see their way to doing wrong that right may come of it.
One of the pleasant and axiomatic fictions they have created
is that they are superior to the rest of mankind in wisdom
and efficiency. Therefore comes their sanction to manage the
bread and butter of the rest of mankind. They have even
resurrected the theory of the divine right of kings - commerical
kings in their case. pp.51-52

What comes across in some of your postings is the subtle
condescention of the divine right of kings... and to think you
were bagged by a 100 years old book.... what irony. :-)

Welcome to DU... really welcome!

namaste,
-sweetheart

[factcheck]

99. Interesting stuff...

I always welcome a healthy discussion using facts, philosophical beliefs, etc. Anything, but unsupported opinion and insults. :)

But, did you ever wonder if the Democratic party as a whole is so unsuccessful sometimes in getting support for all of their ideals because they alienate people like myself with deep pockets?

Sad, but true: American politics is ruled, more often than not, by the concept of 'he who has the most money, wins.'

[sweetheart]

104. Plutocracy might be the defacto government

I quite agree. But our constitution says otherwise, and we've
already tried "triangulation" and all it did was destroy the party,
so catering to the republican virtue of the money calls the shots
simply cannot be done.

As well, remember that the amount of money you make is not correlated
to your party. The only serious correlation that tells whether a
voter is more likely to tick the bush oval, is "whether you attend
church on sunday." Democrats AND Repubicans both have deep pockets
contributors, and more money will not win.

Our problem is deeper seated, in that we may bitch about the WTO,
the washington consensus and neoliberal globalization, but there is
thin ideological support for a coherent alternative coming from the
criticism. Its like the british labour party before neil kinnoch,
did not endorse capitalism... and was unelectable for it... so
tony blair would not be in power were it not for the giving up of
the uber-socialist views.

Likewise here, i think that the democratic party, win or lose this
election should form several thinktanks and offer jobs to liberal
thinkers and writers to work full time on building up an ideological
base for an alternative economic thinking that incorporates
environmentalism, universal healthcare, tax reform and financial
markets in to a framework of ideologies.

So unfortunately there is the heritage foundation, the CATO institute
and all sorts of right wing/libertarian thinktanks, but when we
shift this towards looking at left wing thinking, the body of ideas
is woefully thin... and this further leads to a splintered
and undisciplined opposition to what has become a juggernaught
GOP faux-ideology machine.

The concept "he who has the most money" is not going to decide this
election. It is rather, he/she who has the most turnout and loyalty
of their party on the ground.

[factcheck]

109. That's why...

more money has been spent this election year than any other time in history? Sorry, like I said: sad, but true.

But, it seems to me that what you advocate is progress within the realm of reality. In other words, we can have technology and not destroy the environment, we can have a free market economy, but not leave people 'behind' unjustly.

If that is basically what you are getting at, then I am with you 100%!!!

[sweetheart]

114. After all that spending

We're still counting on a gazillion volunteers to monitor polls,
enforce voting laws, transport underpriviledged folks to and from
polls and all sorts of unpaid work, that comes from love of each
other and true deep patriotism.

Like yourself, i once sold off a technology company i founded, so
your line of talk is ever-so-familiar ;-) . I believe that technology
(computer science), has hardly been begun to be used, and that it has
the most potential in civil engineering. In britain, shortly on,
every citizen will have their medical records kept and available
on a massive single secure nationwide database system that all people can
register for medical care and treatment via the web... a sort of
giant single instance medical treatment software system for the
whole nation.

I see sooooo much potential for software technology in government,
and it irks me to see any tax form or ANY peice of paper dropped
through the mailbox as it is a confession that they have failed to
use computers properly.

Just no matter how technologically advanced we are, there is no
excuse for political illiteracy, and much of america has become
exactly that through deliberate misinformation and propaganda
efforts that weaken people individually that their lives are weak
and unimpeccable.

As an amazon order won't hurt your pocketbook one bit, these few
books can give you an amazing underpinning in your further chats
on how business owners and potential employees can be civil in a
strategic taking back of the nation.

"sorrows of empire" by chalmers johnson
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0805070044/qid=1098059529/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/102-8126887-8684120
"the world we're in" by will hutton
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0316860816/qid=1098059494/sr=2-3/ref=pd_ka_b_2_3/102-8126887-8684120
"the social contract" by jean jaques rousseau
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0140442014/qid=1098059571/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/102-8126887-8684120
"Democracy in America" by Alexis de Tocqueville
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0451528123/qid=1098059440/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/102-8126887-8684120?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
"the iron heel" by jack london
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1556520719/qid=1098059607/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/102-8126887-8684120
"simulacra & simulation" by jean paul baudrillard
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0472065211/ref=sib_rdr_ex/102-8126887-8684120?%5Fencoding=UTF8&p=S003#reader-link

I don't mean to be an ass with a pile of books, but rather if you
put these on your bookshelf, or by the loo (toilet), you'll find
an immense treasury of depth to add to your pragmatic knowledge
that will enrich your contribution here on DU... AS WE NEED YOU
FULLY EDUCATED on the failures of capitalism, as by knowing the
deepest critiques, you can better champion the changes we need to
see made. We need quality business leaders in america.

Godspeed to you and yours. I look forward to many delightful future
chats. :-)

-sweetheart

[sadiesworld]

103. By all means...

please teach Mr/s. Factcheck a kindler, gentler way of explaining how American workers are ignorant and lazy. S/he has much to learn from his "bettors".

[factcheck]

111. I was wrong....

I apologize. I may have hurt some people's feelings who may be currently looking for work or 'underemployed' due to cuts at previous companies.

In addition, I will admit that I felt attacked and I reacted with frustration and became very defensive.

I will not, however, say that my decision made due to HUGE growth was a wrong decision. Had I decided differently, we may have had to turn away business and some of the jobs that have been created for US workers may not have been created and we may have even had to cut staff.

All in all, I apologize to anyone who may have felt slighted by my complete ignorance of the fact that my comments could certainly touch a nerve.

Oh, and it is 'Mr.' :)

[cap]

76. you just dont know how to hire people and let contracts out...

in fact, these days, its easy to have a stable of great people/companies waiting for an opening at your company. God almighty, I fill my place with overqualified people who are happy to be working and who unfortunately are scared of losing their job. For example, QA on my project is a manager who ran QA for GPA. The guy can more than do the work, he's phenonmenal. There are tons of ex-satellite programmers laid off in CO. People who've worked satellite know mission critical software (unlike the folks in India). They can program the crap out of anyone over there.

My problem is keeping people motivated through something else besides fear...I cant give them exciting work. They are just overqualified. I cant pay them what they are worth... we would be uncompetitive.

There are lots of American companies who can get you 10 programmers at the drop of a hat. You just want cheap.

When it comes to hiring young programmers 0-3 years out of school, you'll offshore instead of hiring young Americans.

Your overseas companies have no benefits and will work people without the protection of labor laws.

In fact, you are an "owner" --- one of them who is benefitting mightily from this current regime. In fact, you probably want more of Bush's policies.
If things are truly going good for your company, well, you are part of a minority that is doing well... not the majority. However, you may not remain that way for long. As Carly Fiona, head of HP, just said in an interview with the Financial Times, "the big will get bigger and the small will get smaller". Let's see how this impacts your company. There is no middle tier any more. When I buy software, it is either from a small company or shareware; or it is Enterprise level. Nothing in between.

Your tone is obnoxious... one of the "I got mine" crowd. It's not a good thing to brag like this in front of people on this board who have lost jobs, houses, spouses and have no prospect of getting them back. Are you sure you're not a Republican or one who pulls the R lever at election time? D's dont brag like this.

[factcheck]

95. You are somewhat right...

"It's not a good thing to brag like this in front of people on this board who have lost jobs, houses, spouses and have no prospect of getting them back. Are you sure you're not a Republican or one who pulls the R lever at election time? D's dont brag like this."

It is true. I apologize if I made anyone feel bad who is only reading this thread. But, I have been there AND THEN SOME. You only have my word for that. I worked VERY hard to build my company to the level it is at now. I walked up and down streets in the early days just walking into businesses to get customers.

I have to be honest. I do not necessarily follow the ideals completely of either Republican or Democrat. I take each issue and weigh it on its merits.

Sorry if I came off with a 'bit' of an attitude, but dammit, I really do feel responsible for each and every person that works for my company. These people become like family to me. We hear that so often from companies, but it is really true here.

Our rate of growth over the past 2 years has been phenomenal and we are very fortunate. It simply became too difficult to keep up with the demand and hire people as fast as we needed to. My original point was that not ALL companies send jobs overseas simply to cut costs.

Instead, I was accused of everything from being a foreign company to treating my employees badly when this is not the case. I like to think my employees are better treated at my company than at any other and, if anyone could walk into my company and show me a truly better way, I will hire them on the spot and let them change things.

As for those who have lost jobs, houses, etc. If this is due to circumstances completely beyond their control (layoffs, outsourced jobs, medical reasons, etc.), I truly do empathize. Like I said: I HAVE been there. However, I do not believe in not having any prospects in getting those things back. That would indicate a loss of hope. As long as one has hope, all is not lost. I came close to losing hope in my life as well, but the support of friends helped me tremendously, and even, in some cases, the support of complete strangers.

Because I have been through this myself, I have always supported people who are now in a similar situation that I have experienced.

We have personally delivered turkeys and gift certificates to families for Thanksgiving. We have 'adopted' families for Christmas. I have worked with, and donated money to, groups who work with 'at-risk' youth. We donate a great deal of money to battered women's shelters (my mother was one). My wife works with a group promoting 'gay rights'. My wife is also a school teacher so we both support schools in many ways. There is quite a bit more that we do within our community. There are people everywhere who have hit very hard times in their lives and there are many right here in my own community. But, I do generally work locally.

However, if it will make any difference, form a general consensus and I will donate (anonymously if you feel better that I then cannot deduct it) $1,000 to a charity or group selected by that consensus.

Consider it a bit of a 'penance'.

[mhr]

100. Unemployed 52 Months - Over 2,500 Resumes Out The Door

15+ years of work experience

CV includes
BSEE
MBA
Commercial Pilot
Honorably Discharged Naval Officer

No luck in finding any professional employment.

Your comments do come across as extremely smug.

[factcheck]

102. Ouch!

I will not be condescending and say 'I sympathize or whatever'. I will simply express my best wishes that things work out for you, and soon!

I would offer to look at your resume, but your opinion of me may be already such that I might not seem like the type of person you would want to work with.

[cap]

105. not to spit on a good deed...

and I am sure whoever is getting your $1K will appreciate it as charities are down these days, but what you can do is simply to run your business correctly, assure people who are working for you who are doing the right things that they will have a job, and stop offshoring unless you really need a "follow the sun" business model.

A job for a fellow American will do more than charity. Train your workers. Hire the kid outa school with no experience. Beats hiring young foreigners with no experience. The labor market is getting tighter over there.

If you offshore, why not give them American benefits like retirement, health, education etc.? They are human beings too.

My feeling is to put your $1K towards the Kerry/Edwards campaign.

[factcheck]

110. Thanks...

I actually do a LOT for charities. I don't generally donate money to the very large ones and tend to keep my money in my local area, but then I get to see where my dollars are going.

I *believe* that I do run my business correctly and MOST of our workforce is here in the US. It was a VERY hard decision to pick up some overseas programmers, but I did not see where we really had a choice at the time.

As for benefits, we do offer what we can. Like I said, there are a LOT of roadblocks. Some countries do already have government sponsored health care and those that do not, are not like here at all. We cannot simply buy into a plan like we are lucky enough to have here. As for retirement, 401(k) or 403(b) plans are already something that is being looked into as well as how we can offer that to ALL employees. We do take care of those employees as much as possible, though.

If yours is the only response I get, or if most people want, then I will send $1,000 to the Kerry/Edwards campaign tomorrow. Does anyone know if that amount is 'do-able' via the web site?

[cap]

113. if you pay me a retainer fee, i will send you people...

I know how to hire people. Just for starters, pick up anyone over 40 who has a lot of satellite experience, especially ground stations. Back in the 80's, there was a lot of energy invested in teaching people good software engineering practices. You just dont need to hire foreigners. Good God, Denver has a huge unemployment rate. Your folks are there just for the picking. You can hire Americans if you want to.

You might want to increase your wage rate to 70-90 for your senior people. 60 is way to low. That might be part of your problem. You wont get good, motivated people at that wage rate.

[VegasWolf]

115. Fine, then donate it to DU, they are a great cause but I'm afraid

all we will see is what a sorry liar you are.

New Information Shows Bush Indecisive, Paranoid, Delusional

[GinaMaria]

118. How about donating it to DU?

I've been somewhat following the discussion, as I work in IT workforce development. I'm somewhat involved in recruitment and retention as well as education of > 2000 IT staff.

If you interview 1 out of every 10 resumes that cross your desk. Please tell me how you do that. That is a phenomenal number. Most places are lucky to interview 1 in a hundred. Interviewing 20 people for one position and still not finding a match is not uncommon. This is an expensive process as is hiring and training and getting someone up to speed.

We are paying the price currently for not offering the most competitive salaries and best bennies in the past. When Y2K hit, we didn't attract the top dogs and key performers. And we thought Y2k was bad, it will be nothing compared to what's in store for us.

A huge portion of our IT workforce is baby boomer soon to be retirees. We are scrambling to transfer their knowledge. My company has a home grown main frame system and is dependent on programmers. We suspect the market will turn and again be an employees' market. We are in the process of making our salaries and bennies much more competitive to attract a high calibur candidate to our many soon to be open positions.

We have also started Work/Family balance programs. Every dollar spent on these programs yeilds 2 dollars the company saves in retention, loyalty and productivity. Marriott actually realized $4 for every $1 they spent. There are companies that reap the benefit of innovation from employees when they support and encourage balance. It sounds like you have some of these policies and have been rewarded for them with employee loyalty. This is a tremendous blessing for your business.

I have to say that your comment about 'bettors' was very offensive, but I'm so impressed with your responses when people here pointed that out.

One of your posts asks about achievements or accomplishments and it struck me you were measuring those things in terms of money. Some of my greatest achievements have not brought me money. I consider some of my greatest achievements to be when I worked as a pediatric oncology nurse. These accomplishments were equally about what I gave to others as well as what I learned about myself in return.

One thing I did learn is that human beings are much stronger than they think and they are also much more fragile than they think. We all need reminding from time to time to choose our words carefully.

[DubyaSux]

90. I'll back you up...

....before I got into software, I owned my own small tool and die shop. Me and a partner landed a big contract with a local company and had consistent cash flow. I went out and got more orders and the growing began. I know it was only a small business, but I had 11 people working there (including me). When we started from just me and my partner, that was a fairly impressive growth rate in two years.

But do you know why I got out? Workers...plain and simple. And I would like to hear success stores from business owners who have had better luck. I don't know any, but I'm sure they exist.

I offered top dollar for skilled toolmakers and decent wages for entry level machinists straight out of vocational school. As small as we were, I got us a decent insurance package (pretty rare in companies of that size) to lure better talent.

Nothing worked. Some never even took a shower before an interview. Some never showed up. And the guys I had for the most part, didn't want to work. They acted like they were owed that job or something. If I gave somebody crap for poor quality, they'd threaten to quit. And they had me. They WERE difficult to replace and they knew it.

I got fed up with it an sold the business. I did what I felt were all the right things (in repsonse to the "well, you must just run a shitty business" attacks), but the workers didn't care.

With my business now, I will not hire anybody. I will only get as big as I can hadle myself. I could get bigger, but have no desire to. It's just not worth it.

[LiberteToujours]

65. They need educations

Obviously they're not educated enough. Educated people aren't losing jobs overseas. So sez Bush.

[wiswrong]

69. Educations

Yup.... those Ivy League Ph.D's really need training at a community college -- that's the solution to outsourcing that Bush promotes.

Hey -- maybe he has the right idea -- maybe that community college teaches Punjabi or Mandarin. That will be just the skill they need now -- since their jobs will now be in India or China.

[bobbieinok]

73. this has been a very interesting discussion...programming is definitely

NOT my field, but I've learned about some of the differest aspects and views of the current situation

thanks to all who took the time to post in detail

[sherilocks]

78. The same thing happened during the Reagan/Bush

administrations, only it wasn't due to outsourcing, but because of economic factors and a lack of emphasis on technological advances. A close friend of mine was forced to retire from his computer software programming job (on personal computers) after 30 years on the job or be fired. He was one of many. Retirement income, however, was years away. He took temporary work whenever it was available, which wasn't often.

One year after Clinton was elected, he was working regularly. Soon there were so many jobs available that he could pick and choose. Personal computer technology, which had stagnated from 1986 to 1993, leaped to the forefront. Remember Al Gore did not invent the internet, but he brought it into everyone's home. It was there, just regular people did not know about it.

I hope that after JK is elected, job opportunites for American programmers will turn around in the same way they did in the Clinton administraion. I think he can do this by leveling the playing field for American workers and by removing us from the Bush administration's dark ages with its lack of science and technological innovation.

[bpilgrim]

79. Outsource your CxO's - Save Billions!

you can get'em real cheap in INDIA and CHINA :bounce:

peace

[lovuian]

106. I don't hear about the threat to US National Security here

Programmers from india and other countries programming US military computers and US financial computers and computers that ensure our US energy companies function well are scary and potential to destroy this country. What if India or Russia decides they are going to war with the US??? No government contract should have foreign companies doing the work. It should be US companies because of risk of Sabotage
No one is addressing this at all...

Well then US programmers will be in demand... I'm not to worried with Bush at the helm and the way countries are hating us and want to sabotage...US companies are handing themselves on a Platter of destruction... It will be the companies with US programmers who will reap huge rewards when WWIII comes and we are really looking at that because America sold their technology to the cheapest labor force

I will say Karma its an interesting story O

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

112. Good to know

I might not ever be able to make use my of computer engineering degree.

[OhioChick]

116. RE: Good to know

Don't be too discouraged by the current trends of business owners that have hopped on the outsourcing bandwagon. It will not be too much longer before they are abruptly awakened by a nation that has had enough.

My advice to you, take it or leave it, but at least give it a thought. Stay active within you local user groups (LUGs) and network among the members. Stay current and focused on the latest technologies and computing trends. Look for areas in your field of interest(s) that cannot be outsourced overseas. You always have the option of starting your own business, growing it, and hiring quality and dedicated workers from within our borders. When you do succeed; Stay true to your neighbors and country, and you will always sleep well at night! :pals:

Best of luck to you,
-OC

[Rex]

117. I gave up the IT stuff and now teach in H.S.

True Capitalism(tm) can be a cold, hard bitch.