Kerry, Lieberman Both Take Shots at Dean

[Khephra]

WASHINGTON -- He wasn't even on the Sunday talk shows, but Howard Dean got plenty of air time as his Democratic rivals for the White House took aim at the former Vermont governor.

"Howard Dean has zero experience in international affairs," said Massachusetts Sen. John Kerry on NBC's "Meet the Press."

"The presidency is not the place for on-the-job training in this new security world," he said.

Dean has opened up a wide lead over Kerry -- by more than 20 points -- in the latest poll in New Hampshire, a key state because of its Jan. 27 primary. Dean had been trailing Kerry earlier this year.

more.................

http://www.newsday.com/news/politics/wire/sns-ap-democrats-2004,0,331354.story?coll=sns-ap-politics-headlines

[IndianaGreen]

1. Funny that Clinton was one of those Governors with no experience

a point lost on Kerry when he was making that assinine swipe at Dean by comparing the Chimp to the Dean.

[ozone_man]

18. Really, this kind of attack, makes me think even less of Kerry.

I think the important thing is that Dean, like Clinton has had substantial experience in running the government, at the state level, in preparation for the national level.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think many more presidents have made it from the governor position, and few, if any, have made it from a congressional position.

[Jackpine Radical]

21. To be fair, so was Bush--a guv w/o international experience, that is--

and he sure as hell proved to be a lemon, so maybe Kerry's got something there.

[IndianaGreen]

27. And Kerry's experience did what? Got us into Iraq!

So much for experience!

The issue is not experience. The issue is judgment! One can always hire experts to counsel one on world affairs. Washington is full of experts! How one exercises their own judgment is what determines the sort of President one will make. On that basis alone, Kerry fails miserably!

Kerry reminds me of "the best and the brightest" that McNamara brought to the Pentagon with him. They were the ones that got this nation into the Vietnam quagmire, and were unable to extricate us from it.

[TrueBlueDem]

35. And don't forget FDR

Yet another governor with no foreign affairs experience.

So, how would you say he did handling the foreign affairs issues confrontint him?

[Cha]

2. I trust Dean with ZERO expericence on Foreign Affairs 10000

times more than I trust any of the other candidates.

Who cares? "The presidency is not the place for on-the-job training in this new security world," he said Is that the best you got?

Dean has a brain and is able to use it more than these war mongers who have led us off a tall cliff!

And remind me what experience has kerry had?

[JohnKleeb]

24. all of em are warmongrels?

We may not be on the cover of time magazine and the like but we do exist. BTW all this with respect just dont confuse DK with a warmongrel, hes the antithesis.

[janx]

3. This doesn't worry me. In fact, it makes me laugh.

Whenever anyone goes after Dean like that, it only bolsters his support! I think that may be because every time someone mentions his name, more people check out who he is and like what they find.

It's going to be really funny when Chimpy tries to do it.

[Nicholas_J]

4. Presidential primary

WASHINGTON — By tradition, Labor Day is the political starting gun, the time when voters tend to notice the race for the Presidency.

Through the years, the presumptive front-runners have discovered that Labor Day is either the beginning of the glide path to the nomination and the White House or the time they acquire a giant bull’s-eye on their back.

It just depends on the political party.

“Democrats traditionally don’t have all that much respect for front-runners,” said political scientist Larry Sabato of the University of Virginia. “They view them more as targets..

And Labor Day, he argued, is not a date for candidates to celebrate a lead in the New Hampshire polls.

http://www.theunionleader.com/prez_show.html?article=25609

[arcos]

38. Not everyone agrees...

Bill Schneider is not talking about the current race, but it applies:

<snip>

Prof. William Mayer, a political scientist at Northeastern University, has studied every contested nomination in both parties since 1980. Here's what he finds: "In seven of the ten cases . . . the nominee-to-be had opened up a sizeable lead over every other eventual candidate by, at the latest, one month after the preceding midterm election -- more than a year, in other words, before the start of the actual delegate selection activities.'' Which means, at this very point in the nominating cycle.

<snip>

Mayer coined the term, "the invisible primary'' -- the period from the midterm election to the Iowa caucuses, when candidates struggle for money and attention before a single vote is cast. Does the invisible primary matter? You bet it does. Because nine out of ten times, whoever wins the invisible primary becomes the nominee.

<snip>

Winning the invisible primary means two things: raising the most money, and becoming the frontrunner in the polls. Here are Mayer's findings:


"If one focuses on the last poll taken before the start of delegate selection activities -- meaning, in most years, in the last poll before the Iowa caucuses -- the candidate leading in that poll went on to win the nomination'' in nine out of ten contests. The exception: Gary Hart was the Democratic frontrunner just before the 1988 Iowa caucuses.

"The leading money-raiser in the pre-primary campaign -- more precisely, the candidate who had raised the largest amount of money by December 31 of the year before the election -- went on to win the nomination'' nine out of ten times. The exception: John Connally had raised more money than Ronald Reagan by December 31, 1979.

<snip>

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0103/schneider121902.asp

There are a lot of interesting things in that article, several of which can be used in favor of either Dean, Kerry, or any other of the candidates. But it is a fact that not everyone agrees that Labor day Democratic front-runners are usually in trouble.

[liberalnurse]

5. I think all the attacks on Dean will only strengthen his base.

Being the center of attention, the target of the others keeps him in the loop. He has something to say, to show and it gives him additional space to get out the message.

[Sean Reynolds]

6. These shots will only excite the base more.

To steal some words from our amazingly bright leader - Bring 'em on!

[Eloriel]

7. What's laughable about Kerry's swipe at Dean

is actually twofold:

1. *I* could do better than Bush has done, and I could do better at cleaning it up, too.

2. If Kerry's so smart re "international affairs," why didn't he do more stop Bush from doing all this stooopid stuff? What good is all his "experience" if he doesn't / hasn't done anything with it?

Eloriel

[lumpy]

10. Excellent rebut, Eloriel

No matter who gets the nomination or vote, the mess Bushco has made will not easily remedied.

[MODemocrat]

12. Kerrey voted for this bloody war, not Dean

If he's so adept on foreign affairs himself, why would he have approved of the attack on Iraq? I know, Bush lied big time, but
Kerrey should have seen through this.

[sujan]

14. wait

he says Bush Fooled him. Do we want someone for presidency who was fooled by a fool?

[Jackpine Radical]

22. Fool me once, shame on you

Fool me twice, errr, that is, won't be fooled again, uh, fool...uh

[henslee]

41. Wahhhh! I love that soundbite... wish i had all his soundbites.

I could be wrong but but i thought it was something like "fool me twice... errr (long dumb pause) well you just better not fool me.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

16. Bravo!

:toast:

[DoveTurnedHawk]

8. REEKS of Desperation

And this is from a former Kerry supporter. I still think Kerry's OK, but he's now behind Dean for me, of the declared candidates.

DTH

[Sean Reynolds]

11. I too supported Kerry.

And it seems now that he's going down in a ball of flames he's gonna try and bring Dean with him.

[Jackpine Radical]

23. Maybe it's good if only a few people are watching

and paying attention as Kerry & Holy Joe thrash wildly on their trip to oblivion. That way if they splash anything on Dean it'll escape much notice.

[polpilot]

9. 30 years of Kerry's representation and what do we have? Domestic

& international nightmares. Kerry's clock has run out.

Dean '04...

[farmbo]

13. And what was Carter, Reagan, Carter & Bush*s experience?

The only people who have "experience" (whatever that means) in foreign policy, are Washington insiders.

And what's the kiss of death in this election cycle: to be seen as a Washington Insider.

[henslee]

43. Wonder what a Carter endorsement is worth.....

And how early would he give it... and would he give it?

[tinnypriv]

15. Instant rebuttal

1. Dean has been in over 50 countries.
2. Dean met the incoming President of Argentina before Bush even did.
3. Dean has at least the same amount of "experience" as Bush, Reagan, Clinton and Carter had before they entered the White House (if not more, see #1).

4. When did Kerry sign up for the Clark/Braun campaign?

Next.

[dean4america]

17. poor john...

he realizes his dream is coming to slow end. What's funny about this statement of zero experience is that it's been out there for ages by news organizations, fox news, etc., and now kerry is just saying it out loud on a national stage. this will totally backfire on him.

that he voted for the war, and basically admits he was fooled by bush, make him look even worse.

[goforit]

19. Desparate,Desparate Desparate!!!!......LOL!!!!

Lieberman and Kerry knock themselves out!!!

This is just tooooo funny!!

[Voltaire99]

20. "This new security world"

Kerry's language is that of the co-opted establishment chimp. It's the language of the Patriot Act, the perma-war, and Fatherland Security. Expect no help from him in fighting the over-weening police state order fashioned so irresponsibly following 9/11.

[IndianaGreen]

28. Is the old Pax America, another name for imperialism

or to put it in Marxist terms, it is capitalism in its last stages.

The reason Kerry voted for the war in Iraq is because Kerry believes in the war in Iraq. Kerry has no qualms about PNAC, and no issues with the concept of Bush's "pre-emptive" wars.

While Kerry is not Bush when it comes to domestic policies, Kerry is most definitely in agreement with the goals of Bush's foreign policy. If you watched Kerry on Meet the Press, you should have noticed that Kerry did not say once that invading Iraq was wrong or illegal or even unethical. Kerry's quarrel with Bush is not based on the war, but on Bush's management of the war's aftermath.

To put Kerry in another historical perspective, Kerry would be like the Germans that applauded Hitler's invasion of Poland in 1939, but then had second thoughts about the treatment of the Poles.

[Forkboy]

25. Kerry is in a position

mostly of his own making,where he has no choice but to go on the attack against Dean.

[THUNDER HANDS]

26. alright...he was criticized

Which, last time I checked, is what happens during primaries.

And remember kiddies, Dean started all of this by calling Kerry "Bush-lite" when it was plainly obvious Kerry is anything BUT Bush-lite.

Kerry will get his poll numbers up. In a month it'll be even again, bank on it.

[IndianaGreen]

29. Kerry is not Bush lite, but he is as much a warmongerer as Bush!

And Kerry's rationalizations on Iraq on Meet the Press leave no doubt in my mind that Kerry was as much a cheerleader for this war as Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz, and as much a liar in his Senate speech as Tony Blair.

Kerry is not Bush lite, his views on domestic policy are defensible Democratic positions (this doesn't mean that I agree with him), but Kerry is as much a warmongerer as Bush!

Kerry never once criticized the Bush doctrine of pre-emptive wars!

[Walt Starr]

30. Kerry has blood on his hands, that makes him Bush-lite in ,my book

And this little ass wipe bullshit swipe at Dean just put Kerry into the same boat with Lieberman as far as I'm concerned.

If Kerry is nominated, I walk away from the Democrats.

[Norton]

33. Anyone who calls Kerry a "warmonger"

Is ignorant of his history. Dean can't carry Kerry's shoes on the issue.

[IndianaGreen]

42. The Kerry that opposed the Vietnam war

is not the Kerry that voted for the war in Iraq and that is running for President.

Voting for this Kerry based on the man he was 30 years ago does an injustice to other members of the Vietnam Veterans Against the War, such as Ron Kovic, that remained faithful to their ideals.

[David Dunham]

31. Kerry Nailed Dean on Repealing Middle Class Tax Cuts

Senator Kerry on Meet the Press correctly pointed out that Dean's plan to repeal the entire Bush tax cut will seriously raise taxes on middle class families. The taxes for my family, with two kids, will be raised over $2000 if Dean's repeal goes through. We really need to get Dean to change his position on this issue, or Kerry and other candidates will nail him in ads in tax-concerned New Hampshire and other states. Unless Dean changes his position, I will vote what's best for my family, and that's Kerry and his tax plan.

[madfloridian]

32. You said this on at least two other threads.

Are you spamming for your candidate?

[Dhalgren]

34. You got a $2,000 tax cut in Bush's giveaway to the rich?

Man that is a pretty high middle bracket your in. And to repeal the cuts is not to raise taxes - it's just putting them back to where they were before Bush looted the treasury for his rich friends. If you buy into that "raising taxes" crap, then maybe Bush is your guy.

Also, on the Kerry attack of Dean. Why can't these candidates push their own agendas without trashing other Dems? This is not going to help next fall, regardless of who gets the nomination. Every bloody attack is fuel for Rove next fall.

[JNelson6563]

39. that's what I thought too

Wow!! That's a nice cut! $2000. Let's see, we have a pretty comfortable situation here and the Big Tax Cut for this middle class family came to a whopping $336.00 per year. We're in the 50,000+ range--family of four, two kids.

I know if my tax cut were repealed I wouldn't be crying all that hard, especially if it meant my country could actually gain a little financial security. I should think if I were in a bracket high enough to have experienced $2000.00 I would miss my "cut" even less......

But then again, I'm not very materialistic and I've no love of money. I do love my country though and would like to know I left my kids with a nation that wasn't going to go belly-up.....

I hate to see Republican style greed on a Dem board. Sad.

Julie

[RetroLounge]

45. Oooh oooh, lookie at the Kerry Spam!

3rd or 4th thread with the exact paragraph?

Get a clue, spambot...

[farmboxer]

36. Why Don't They Attack Bush?

Bush is destroying America. Democrats need to unite and just tell the truth about Bush! The coup in 2000 should also be exposed as well as the Republican manufactured and programmed voting machines.

[opihimoimoi]

37. Maybe they saving their ammo for the Super Bowl

they first have to survive the playoffs.

[metisnation]

40. waiting for a flank

just wait till Dean picks his right hand man. The winds are blowing in Clark's direction. Dean/Clark would be unstoppable! Time to take back our country America.

DEAN 04'

Semper Fi

[AntiCoup2K4]

44. Kerry and Lieberman need to drop out of the race now.

Probably Graham and Edwards as well, though they haven't been as involved in the bashing.

Defeating Bush Jr is neccessary, but with a Reich Wing majority in the Senate, there's a limit to how much damage can be undone. Throwing 4 senate seats up for grabs due to Presidential ambitions is definitely NOT the best strategy for reclaiming the Senate.

[dansolo]

47. Graham won't attack Dean

His best shot would be as a possible VP nominee, and he won't jeopardize that by attacking Dean, especially since they are probably very much in agreement on many issues. I would expect that if Dean were to become the nominee, the VP candidate choice would be between Graham and Clark.

[dansolo]

46. And he still has a 20 point lead

Kerry should take a lesson from this. Nobody is under the impression that Dean has much foreign policy experience, and yet he is pulling away from the rest of the candidates. When will Kerry realize that contrary to the Rove/GOP mantra, foreign policy is *NOT* the most important issue for Americans. The economy is a much more immediate concern. Also, Americans are beginning to realize that by being unilateralists, we are less secure than if we strove to build relationships with other countries, especially ones that could help relieve the burden of fighting international terrorism.