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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-14-03 07:54 PM
Original message
(Bush never said) Imminent Threat Claim Debunked
Edited on Sun Nov-16-03 10:16 PM by elad
http://www.centerforamericanprogress.org/site/apps/s/content.asp?cid=%7bE9245FE4-9A2B-43C7-A521-5D6FF2E06E03%7d&bin_id=%7b55B74016-32AC-4A4A-B536-455DF8212EB3%7d&content_id=%7bA8669E5A-2C79-4B24-9E4F-94FC2FF5A8BC%7d

IMMINENT THREAT CLAIM DEBUNKED: The Administration has claimed that it never depicted Iraq as an imminent threat in defending itself against accusations that it misled the public before the war. But the evidence is clear that they did, in fact, depict an imminent threat (see Jules Witcover's column on this, or the 10/16 version of the Progress Report for a rundown). And the new poll reflects that: "An overwhelming 87% said that, before the war, the Bush administration portrayed Iraq as an imminent threat, while a majority (58%) believes that the administration did not have evidence for this and only 42% believe that it was the case."

Jules Witcover writes from The Baltimore Sun's Washington bureau and appears Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays. http://www.sunspot.net/news/opinion/oped/bal-op.witcover17oct17,0,1793934.column?coll=bal-oped-headlines WASHINGTON -- When I wrote in my previous column that President Bush, in defending his Iraq invasion by citing the horrors of Saddam Hussein, "seemed to have forgotten those missing weapons of mass destruction he insisted earlier posed such an imminent threat," the e-mails poured in.


<snip>...State of the Union speech of 2003: "Some have said we must not act until the threat is imminent...Since when have terrorists and tyrants announced their intentions, politely putting us on notice before they strike? If this threat is permitted to fully and suddenly emerge, all actions, all words, and all recriminations would come too late." That sounds to me as if he was saying the threat could well be imminent, so we'd better not take a chance and hit Saddam Hussein before he hits us.



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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-14-03 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
1. Grreat! Let the voters "debunk" bush's
claims.
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chaumont58 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-14-03 08:04 PM
Response to Original message
2. It's god damn incredible
Edited on Fri Nov-14-03 08:06 PM by chaumont58
The Bushies invaded and conquered a sovereign nation, but that nation posed no immenent threat the US? They lie and then lie about the lie. How many of their puke ass supporters are going to believe that latest lie? It gets so you can't tell the lies without a scorecard. I don't hate Bush, much, but the mess the US is in right now was brought on by the beltway whores. All of them. Especially the socalled liberal: Al Hunt, Margaret Carlson, Mark Shields. They couldn't trash Al Gore enough in 2000, and couldn't praise the chimp enough. They have sown the wind, and now the nation(and innocent Iraqis) reap the whirlwind.
Sonsabitches. Sonsabitches.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-14-03 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
3. PUBLIC OPINION REFLECTS CREDIBILITY GAP
PUBLIC OPINION REFLECTS CREDIBILITY GAP: According to a new poll by the nonpartisan Program on International Policy Attitudes http://www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/Iraq/Nov_13_03_iraq_press.pdf
, a majority of Americans (55%) believe that the Bush Administration went to war on the basis of incorrect assumptions. All told, "61% said that the US should have taken more time to find out if Iraq had weapons of mass destruction and 59% saying it should have taken more time to build international support."

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gristy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-14-03 08:58 PM
Response to Original message
4. reposting to shorten the links (and get text to fit my screen)
link

IMMINENT THREAT CLAIM DEBUNKED: The Administration has claimed that it never depicted Iraq as an imminent threat in defending itself against accusations that it misled the public before the war. But the evidence is clear that they did, in fact, depict an imminent threat (see Jules Witcover's column on this, or the 10/16 version of the Progress Report for a rundown). And the new poll reflects that: "An overwhelming 87% said that, before the war, the Bush administration portrayed Iraq as an imminent threat, while a majority (58%) believes that the administration did not have evidence for this and only 42% believe that it was the case."

Jules Witcover writes from The Baltimore Sun's Washington bureau and appears Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays.
link
WASHINGTON -- When I wrote in my previous column that President Bush, in defending his Iraq invasion by citing the horrors of Saddam Hussein, "seemed to have forgotten those missing weapons of mass destruction he insisted earlier posed such an imminent threat," the e-mails poured in.


<snip>...State of the Union speech of 2003: "Some have said we must not act until the threat is imminent...Since when have terrorists and tyrants announced their intentions, politely putting us on notice before they strike? If this threat is permitted to fully and suddenly emerge, all actions, all words, and all recriminations would come too late." That sounds to me as if he was saying the threat could well be imminent, so we'd better not take a chance and hit Saddam Hussein before he hits us.


<snip>In his speech in Cincinnati Oct. 8, 2002, the president called Iraq "a grave threat to peace" that "possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons" and "could bring sudden terror and suffering to America."?Some ask how urgent this danger is to America and the world. The danger is already significant and it only grows worse with time. If we know Saddam Hussein has dangerous weapons today -- and we do -- does it make any sense for the world to wait to confront him as he grows even stronger and develops even more dangerous weapons?" That sure sounds to me like the perfect rationale for waging a pre-emptive war, and the sooner the better, as propounded in Mr. Bush's National Security Strategy paper and implemented in the subsequent invasion of Iraq.


<snip>Rumsfeld, describe(ed)..the threat as "immediate" in testimony before the House Armed Services Committee Sept. 18, 2002, three weeks before Mr. Bush's Cincinnati speech?.saying he didn't know "precisely how close he is to having a deliverable nuclear weapon," Mr. Rumsfeld added: "But those who raise questions about the nuclear threat need to focus on the immediate threat from biological weapons." Later in the same testimony, he observed that "no terrorist state poses a greater and more immediate threat to the security of our people, and the stability of the world, than the regime of Saddam Hussein in Iraq."?.the president, Mr. Rumsfeld and other architects of the war insisted before launching it that deliverable weapons of mass destruction existed in Iraq and were the reason it had to be waged pronto. <snip>

10/16 version of the Progress Report IMMINENT THREAT ARGUMENT:..the Administration repeatedly said Iraq was an imminent threat. On 5/7/03, White House spokesman Ari Fleischer was asked "didn't we go to war because we said WMD were a direct and imminent threat to the U.S.?" He replied "Absolutely." On 11/14/02, a mother of a U.S. soldier told Secretary of Defense Don Rumsfeld that she was not convinced that Iraq was an imminent threat. He replied "I would look you in the eye and I would say, go back before September 11 and ask yourself this question: Was the attack that took place on September 11 an imminent threat the month before or two months before or three months before or six months before? When did the attack on September 11 become an imminent threat? Now, transport yourself forward a year, two years or a week or a month...So the question is, when is it such an immediate threat that you must do something?" The Administration also made the "imminent threat" point in other ways. Rumsfeld said on 1/29/03 "The President has stated that he considers the Saddam Hussein regime a danger to the United States ." And Vice President Cheney said on 1/30/03 that there was a "grave danger posed by the outlaw regime in Iraq," adding that Saddam "threatens the United States of America ."



link

Q Well, we went to war, didn't we, to find these -- because we said that these weapons were a direct and imminent threat to the United States? Isn't that true?
MR. FLEISCHER: Absolutely. One of the reasons that we went to war was because of their possession of weapons of mass destruction. And nothing has changed on that front at all. We said what we said because we meant it. We had the intelligence to report it. Secretary Powell said it. And I may point out to you, as you may know, there is a news conference at Department of Defense today at 2:00 p.m. to discuss one element in this.
And so we have always had confidence, we continue to have confidence that WMD will be found. He's had a long period of time to hide what he has in a variety of different places, and there is a whole protocol of the search that is underway, that is being conducted in a very methodical fashion.


http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/2003/t01292003_t0129sd.html

DoD News Briefing - Secretary Rumsfeld and Gen. Myers
Q: Thank you. Do you believe Iraq represents an imminent threat to the United States?
Rumsfeld: You know, that is a question that is coming up quite a bit, and it's an important question.
Clearly, it's been -- what's been going on there has been going on in large measure for some 12 years. In a different way, it's been going on since the inspectors left -- free play for them.
Every day, every week, every month that goes by, let alone years, their programs are maturing, and their relationships exist, and they have intelligence agents around the world, they have relationships with terrorist networks, and they have opportunities to do things.
Now, at what moment was the threat to -- for September 11th imminent? Was it imminent a week before, a month before, a year before, an hour before? Was it imminent before you could -- while you could still stop it, or was it imminent only after it started and you couldn't stop it, or you could stop one of the three planes instead of two or all three? These are very tough questions.
And plans change. We know that the al Qaeda plans sometimes took a year to develop, and they were -- the cells existing around that waited impatiently until the time was perfect, and then they acted.
We have -- we know we have imperfect knowledge of everything that goes on in the world. We know that. We know that an attacker can attack at any moment they want. And we know the lethal effect of an attack might not be 300 people or 3,000 people, but 30,000 people. How do we, how do you, how do all of us, how do the people in the world decide the imminence of something? And I would submit that the hurdle, the bar that one must go over, changes depending on the potential lethality of the act.
Q: But as you see it now, do you believe that Iraq does present an imminent danger, imminent threat?
Rumsfeld: The President has stated -- our job here is to be prepared to do what we're asked. The President has stated that he considers the Saddam Hussein regime a danger to the United States and a danger to the region; that it has weapons of mass destruction, that it is developing still more, and that it has linkages to terrorist activities; and that every other effort has been exhausted -- the diplomatic, the economic, limited military activity in the Northern and Southern low -- no-fly zones; and that the string is running out.
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librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 01:01 AM
Response to Original message
5. Josh Marshall held a contest (TPM)
Edited on Sun Nov-16-03 10:12 PM by elad
500 people responded to the request to debunk the fictional argument that ShrubbiCorp never said the I word. Josh's series on this eternal question is hilarious (link below)

snippage:



..." their argument is really just a “crafty verbal dodge — sort of like ‘I didn’t accuse you of eating the cake. All I said was that you sliced it up and put it in your mouth.’”
snip

More in contention are the quotes from the president’s spokesmen at the time. Did they think the president was arguing there was an imminent threat? The evidence here is awfully clear...

snip

more at http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2003_11_02.html
scroll down to Nov 7 2003 10:26 am


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weldon_berger Donating Member (74 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 05:39 AM
Response to Original message
6. He may not have used the actual words, but his campaign did.
And surely they ought to know.

''Commentary: Psssst, imminent threat, pass it on

Syndicated columnist Kathleen Parker expresses not only her disbelief at the news coverage of the Kay report, but her judgment that Kay’s report does indeed prove that conditions in Iraq posed an imminent threat to the United States and the world.
''
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drfemoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 07:41 AM
Response to Original message
7. If he and his didn't do it ..
Edited on Sat Nov-15-03 07:45 AM by drfemoe
the murican people must have come up with the idea on their own!! ??

I know that in the pre-war frenzy (my pre-DU days)
if I raised my tiny little voice questioning the neccessity of WAR, my fellow muricans responded hysterically that Saddam was going to blow us away any day if we didn't stop him!!!
You cannot argue with a mind which has been hypnotized by the mass media agenda.

But there was another reason. In March 2003 I sent an email of a list of war protest slogans to a very selected few. Here's a sample ..

Let's bomb Texas, they have oil too.
How did our oil get under their sand?
If you can't pronounce it, don't bomb it.
Daddy, can I start the war now?
1000 points of light and one dim bulb.
Sacrifice our SUV's, Not our Children.
Preemptive impeachment.

I was shocked when one of my friends gave me his viewpoint:
*this person practices nature religion, is a photographer by profession, baby boomer, gentle and sincere*
snips from emails of our exchange (his replies only), early March 2003
....
I don't agree with the anti-war protesters (sorry),I think we should have gotten Saddam out during Desert Storm....
He's very much a barbarian. I wouldn't want to live there...
....
Yeah I do know you .. It seems the hippies have resurfaced,along with their offspring....
There are obviously good and bad either way we look at the situation, but Saddam still has to be dealt with.. Remember, he's had since the Gulf War to hide all of his weaponry, even in tunnels..
....
I think that you have misunderstood my stand on the war with Iraq.
I hope that Saddam will be frightened into exile, and a war can be
averted.. He may choose the coward's way out, but if he chooses exile, it will be interesting to see if he will try to maintain power even from exile.
The Iraqi people deserve a better government, one that is less
oppressive. He lives in many palaces while his people live in squalor. They have never known anything else, but don't they deserve better ? Saddam has had 10+ years to clean up his act, but has not,he has only become more devious and dangerous to the people of the Middle East.
No, I don't want or like war, and it will be unfortunate if it
happens...
....
Well, I hope that we don't go to war, and that it's somehow
averted... But I'm enough of a patriot to back the country in whatever decision is made..
We can't just sit back and let someone like this (Saddam) step all over anyone he feels like.. My God, even his own people have been massacred by him.. Innocent women and children...
....
Fri, 25 Apr 2003
I haven't heard from you in a while, and I was wondering if you're angry with the old "warmonger" ? I hope not, it was sad to lose even one of our soldiers, or any of the newspeople.. All for the cause of freeing the Iraqi people from the monster that
ruled them for so many years.. They can never be replaced, but their sacrifices will never be forgotten.. It's too bad that things like that cannot be resolved in a peaceful manner..
....
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003
I began thinking of all that has happened in Iraq.. To me, the only
true weapons of mass destruction are Saddam Hussein and his sons.. The others made of metal and chemicals are superficial..
Let us hope and pray that Iraq can rebuild its government along more
humane lines..

....
*we don't write much any more...
....
Watching news footage of the 'conquest' of baghdad while the 'news' people repeated over and over what a scum bag saddam was for living in palaces while his people live in squalor .... I wonder how people can be so blind or STUPID or deceptive .. which is it? Like there is NO social injustice in OUR country. And where did the coalition high rank officials set up? Palace. And the grunts? Ramshackle bunks. I guess as more stories broke of CEO and wallstreet rips offs and americans falling into poverty, the comparison became too much to broadcast day and night because maybe then some drowsy viewer just might make a synaptic jump to the conclusion that if rich, powerful, corrupt, despots who allow their people to suffer in poverty and joblessness, with no regard for human life deserve to be 'dethroned' . well then ...

No. That war selling point has been shortened to "the world is a better place without ..." .. saddam of course. (I can envision this becoming a standard phrase with a fill-in-the-blank as needed.) This simplistic pea soup is an insult to any person who is not in a persistent vegitative state. Or mass hypnotized. For them, it's just the next stage trick. Everyone else is quacking like a duck. I have to quack like a duck. Getting closer .. it's a quackmire.

It couldn't have been anything else. When you beileve your sandcastle is a beach front condo, and convince everyone else it is too, you can never stop making piles of sand. Never.
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