Five Myths That Sanction Israel's War Crimes

[Matilda]

A well-thought out piece that really needs no further comment:


http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0725-35.htm

[DYouth]

1. The people sanctioning the IDF crimes have no idea of the mideast conflict

They have no idea how much the Arabs have suffered at Israeli hands and the daily indignations suffered by the Palestinians. That's why they can only see the conflict as about Israel's defense -- because they're never shown that maybe the Arabs are being denied security and peace too.

[Tom Joad]

2. I wish they could have spent even a few hours observing at a

"checkpoint" in the West Bank like i did. These things are not even for "security". People are made to wait for hours, then let go. Or sometimes they are even instructed by the occupation forces on how to go around the checkpoint. Just takes an extra hour of hiking, but it can be done. Or watch an old woman not allowed to return to her village after seeing the doctor (complete with warning shots). Just complete control and humiliation.

[Douglas Carpenter]

3. recommended --- a VERY * VERY important article

[Poll_Blind]

4. Recommended....highly. Thanks for posting this. n/t

PB

[cali]

5. Cook's passionate

defense of Nasrallah and H'zbollah, as well as his righteous slam at Egeland, are inspiring.

I don't give a shit which side propaganda comes from, I reject it. Cook has some excellent points, which get completely lost in his eagerness to present H'zbollah and Nasrallah as noble fighters for justice.

[daydreamer]

7. They may not be noble fighters. But they were founded

because of the Israeli occupation. Wouldn't you fight if you lost your home and land?

[papau]

8. Hez was founded by Iran to extend Shia influence - killing Israeli kids is

just a useful means to that end.

[daydreamer]

9. What do you think about the Israeli massacre of the Lebanese people?

[papau]

10. It is brutal- I believe the response attack could be done with more care

to avoid civilian deaths, but I realize the Hez wants arab civilian deaths so Hez makes it difficult for Israel to launch a response attack without causing civilian deaths via moving into housing projects, and fields next to UN posts, and firing their missiles from those locations, while storing their weapons in businesses, schools and Mosques.

Under these conditions, unless Israel chooses to let a few of its citizens die each day with no response by the IDF, there will be civilian deaths in Lebanon when any response is made, no matter how careful the Israeli IDF is. But the investigations of past Israeli actions that caused larger than usual civilian deaths or ones that hit the UN showed that while there was no special intent to kill civilians, the IDF troops were not excessively going out of their way trying to avoid such killing - the IDF could have slowed things down a bit so as to be more certain the attack did not hit areas of likely higher civilian deaths.

It is curious how some on DU - like Cook at Commondreams - want to pretend Hez are not terrorists - and try to sell them as freedom fighters - while they also try to sell every Israeli action as worse than the acts of the Nazi's.

God knows the treatment/humiliation of the Palestinians in the West bank, and in Gaza before Israel pulled out, was on par with US treatment of blacks prior to 1970, and deserves to be condemned, but there is a hate of Israel that goes beyond that - and the only reason I can think of for that being is a hate/fear of all things Jewish - fear of the uppity Jew that expects to get into "our" social circle.

By the way, massacre implies intentional killing of civilians. I do not believe Israel does this. Hez and other terrorists do do intentional killing of civilians via missiles which they do not even pretend to aim at IDF locations and via suicide killers that try to maximize civilian deaths. But at least you did not lead with "baby killers" as some other DU poster did today (and I know the TV today led with the babies being killed in Lebanon by Israeli weapons - but folks should realize that kids dying is happening on both sides).

[fat dad]

15. Papau,

until now I've loved reading you... Even as a Lebanese-American. I've re-posted some of your rants elsewhwere, calling you a genius.

God knows the treatment/humiliation of the Palestinians in the West bank, and in Gaza before Israel pulled out, was on par with US treatment of blacks prior to 1970, and deserves to be condemned, but there is a hate of Israel that goes beyond that - and the only reason I can think of for that being is a hate/fear of all things Jewish - fear of the uppity Jew that expects to get into "our" social circle.


...but, your snide, whiny statement of "our social circle" implies that practically everyone hates "all things Jewish." Or at least everyone who disagrees with you. You confuse criticizing right-wing Zionist warmongering and bigotry with anti-Semitism. Easy way to justify the persecuted becoming the persecutor. You rise to the surface for that divisive lure as readily as a poor sharecropping Christian will come out to vote for an aristocratic Republican who promises to protect him from gay marriage.

Perhaps feelings of wild inferiority and exclusion are only symptoms of even wilder racial superiority, paranoia, and convenient imperialistic ambitions? I guess not, if God is always on your side. Ask Jerry Falwell. Or David ben Gurion. Or bin Laden. Or George Bush. They all feed from the same trough.

Anti-Semitism? "A hate/fear of all things Jewish - fear of the uppity Jew that expects to get into "our" social circle." Is it anti-Semitic to ask whether the Zionist may have brought down some of Israel's criticism with your above statement's bigoted, xenophobic attitude as a prime example? Or just another good example of self-serving Zionist shucking and jiving and Arabic fanaticism? Because, I, for one, have never enountered anyone, but fools, and right wingers, who had nothing but admiration for the Jewish people's remarkable character, compassion, and intellect. (here's where you come back with more Step-n-Fetchit poormouth).

Whether you believe it or not, the Jews and the Lebanese are first cousins. For no matter how long you've been lost in the desert the family resemblance is still there. We are both good peoples. All people are inherently good. To demonize an entire people is always wrong. Whether it's demonizing Jews or Arabs.

It is only the hard-core Zionist who is hated/feared. The German accented Jew. The wealthy tax cutter. The Pharoahs of any creed or culture. And rightfully so. Because they are the mirror image of those you claim are guilty of "hate/fear of all things Jewish"...(/Black/Arab/Gay/Liberal).

I type this, blind in my right eye from an unprovoked Zionist beating. But my wife is a Jew.

No matter, anti-Semitism, and the hard-core Zionism it created, is Christian in origin. Our fight, as Semitic people's, is a contrived one, picked by bullies. For a millenium, the Arab world treated Jews with respect and detente while the western world was burning them. In the end, Israel is nothing more than a pawn in Anglo-American imperialism. A Machievielian colony. Arabs and Jews kill each other - kill each other - kill each other - all a smokescreen tinderbox craftily designed to keep 5% of the world's population in firm grasp of 80% of the world's wealth.

It wasn't until after WWI, when Britain promised Palestine to both the Arab Palestinians and the mostly European Jews, that our people fought. The Zionist Manifest Destiny treatment of the Palestinian Arab's, in much the same way that Christian European's treated the native American, egged on by the Anglo-American imperial war machine, is the primary cause for the Arab and Israeli to suffer what is so often misconceived as an eternal Holy War. In reality, our fight is a recent one. Caused more by oil, and Christian persecution, than it was by the obvious racial character flaws of both the Jew's and the Arabs.

We fight for the enjoyment of others.

And it may be hard to label me "anti-Semitic" being that I number among the Semitic peoples.

So stop it.

[papau]

16. Sorry that I was not clear- being critical of Israel is not "anti-Semitic"

My speculation at why DU - and other sites on the left - are saying things that I find not balanced was obviously not written as clearly as it should have been.

You are correct - most folks can separate their opinion of people and cultures from their opinion of nation state actions. It is of course not anti-Semitic to ask whether actions claimed to advance the Zionist cause also bring with them criticism of Israel.

But my "our social circle" comment goes back to when I first joined the ranks of senior management - and found that an anti-Jew attitude was expected of those at my rank - but expected to be hidden from staff - and always expected to be agreed to by the those under the CEO. Indeed I have been pissed for 20 years that an actuary named Zee at the Prudential who was extremely brilliant and in the early 1930's ran through difficult exams at incredible speed, only to be denied professional certification because he was "too young". When a couple of years later he was given responsibility for the core business (called the "debit" business) of the Prudential Insurance Company of America, being it's actuary for the next 30 plus years, he was notpromoted to VP, much less Senior VP or Exec VP - indeed he retired with out the full VP title. Shortly after some "don't give a damn we have little to lose" young executives in the 60's commented on this, the Pru still did not give him VP AND ACTUARY - instead they simply changed everyones title at his rank to being a VP COMMA title - the lower rank remaining but now in his case being "VP, Actuary". Later in other companies I saw the country club/social club blackballing - and the social conversation put downs that never ended - to the point I never went out socially with my "peers" other than fellow actuaries (a group based only on merit - exam passage - gets all types/faiths as members - which prevents dumps on people based on any claimed group characteristic).

The Jews and the Lebanese are first cousins - ? - heck - all those around the Med are first cousins. And while both Lebanon and Israel have a population that traces a majority of the members back to "Semitic" roots, I dislike the idea of a "family resemblance". I always hated the equivalent Italian concept of "one face-one race". It is easy to see that every possible "face" exists in every group of citizens. Yes, village inbreeding (most folks did not go more that 30 miles from the home village for a spouse prior to the last 200 years) produces similar features, but immigration and wars has produced a nice mix in every culture - and while that mix may be greater now, but it has existed for ages. But I agree with you that all people are "inherently good, and that to demonize an entire people is always wrong -whether it's demonizing Jews or Arabs".

I am sorry for your injury caused by some idiot claiming Zionist affiliation. I can only note that in my family the killing of 9 great great uncles (it was thankfully long long ago) by Ottoman imposed Arab functionaries is long forgotten, sort of, with everyone I associate with hanging out happily with everyone - especially those from around the Med. Indeed I swear there are as many non-Greek Eastern Med food outlets as there are Greek run places (but I still am a creature of my youth and flavors I discovered while young are the "right" flavors - no matter how much I may enjoy another villages cooking).

I agree the Christian faith is the origin of both anti-Semitism, and the reaction to anti-Semitism - Zionism. And indeed Jews being kicked to the curb and having extra taxes was better than being burned or expelled - as was done was done in Europe. But while the Arab world post the conversion from Christianity to Islam - which took many hundreds of years after being conquered by the armies of Islam - did tolerate non-Islam folks - it gave them - and still gives them - fewer rights. Indeed the extra tax under Shira, in my view, was a powerful force in getting from a few Islamic conquerers running a country to a majority of the population be Islamic (the rest of the way to near 100% Islamic was of course peer pressure). But I do agree fights amongst all peoples - including those who self describe themselves as Semitic - is a "contrived one, picked by bullies".

And my God do I agree that killing each other is the smokescreen by the rich and corporate put out to hide the fact that "5% of the world's population" have "80% of the world's wealth" - indeed my own studies it is more like 1% having 90%. While Arab killing Jew predates WW1, it was ruler versus peasant, and the ruler usually want a bit more land for the kids - I have not read about much Arab killing of Jews caused by their being Jews -prior to the 20th century. Indeed distraction from discussion of inherited wealth problem, and the rich folks enjoyment in seeing others die are reasons for most current conflicts - over and beyond the fact that war makes the rich much richer.

As to my post, I wanted complain about uneven treatment on the left of terrorist killings versus Israeli killingsm but I did not mean to leave the impression that I was calling all that want Israel to live closer to its moral code an "anti-Semitic".

Sorry about giving you that impression.

[daydreamer]

17. The Hesbolla was founded by the sons of the

south Lebanese people, who fled the Israeli Army in 1978. Violence begets violence. Look which side has killed more civilians. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/27/opinion/27el-zein.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

[truth2power]

12. Did you read the article?..

"Egeland and Howells need reminding that Hezbollah’s fighters are not aliens recently arrived from training camps in Iran, whatever Horowitz claims. They belong to and are strongly supported by the Shiite community, nearly half the country’s population, and many other Lebanese. They have families, friends, and neighbors living alongside them in the country’s south and the neighborhoods of Beirut who believe Hezbollah is the best hope of defending their country from Israel’s regular onslaughts."

Julia Choucair, who's with the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace was on Fresh Air, NPR, last week. Some interesting information about Hezbollah. Link:

http://www.audible.com/adbl/entry/offers/t2.jsp?BV_UseBVCookie=Yes&productID=RT_WHYY_060720

[pberq]

6. Recommended

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0725-35.htm

. . .Horowitz is keen to bang the square peg of the Lebanon story into the round hole of his claims that the “Jews” are facing an imminent genocide in the Middle East. And to help him, he and the massed ranks of US apologists for Israel -- regulars, I suspect, of shows like Laura’s -- are promoting at least four myths regarding Hezbollah’s current rockets strikes on Israel. Unless they are challenged at every turn, the danger is that they will win the ground war against common sense in the US

The first myth is that Israel was forced to pound Lebanon with its military hardware because Hezbollah began “raining down” rockets on the Galilee. Anyone with a short memory can probably recall that was not the first justification we were offered: that had to do with the two soldiers captured by Hezbollah on a border post on July 12.

But presumably Horowitz and his friends realized that 400 Lebanese dead and counting in little more than a week was hard to sell as a “proportionate” response. In any case Hezbollah kept telling the world how keen it was to return the soldiers in a prisoner swap.

Hundreds of dead in Lebanon, at least 1,000 severely injured and more than half a million refugees -- all because Israel is not ready to sit down at the negotiating table. Even Horowitz could not “advocate for Israel” on that one. . . .

[davidinalameda]

11. imminent genocide

I'd say that's a possibility when you have most of your neighbors refusing to recognize your right to exist

[Matilda]

13. The real point, I think, is not the right of Israel to exist,

but its creation on the back of Palestinian territory.

It was done, however ill-advisedly, and it won't be undone, but that is the reason for the anger
of the Arabs. It didn't just arise out of a vacuum.

[Douglas Carpenter]

14. There is an offer for peace between Arab countries and Israel:

This specific offer was unanimously affirmed by the Arab League and immediately endorsed by the Palestinian leadership in March 2002. However, more or less the same plan has been offered by the Arab League and enthusiastically endorsed by the Palestinian leadership going back much, much longer:

link:

http://www.mideastweb.org/saudipeace.htm

"The Arab Peace Initiative
(translation by Reuters).

The Council of Arab States at the Summit Level at its 14th Ordinary Session, reaffirming the resolution taken in June 1996 at the Cairo Extra-Ordinary Arab Summit that a just and comprehensive peace in the Middle East is the strategic option of the Arab countries, to be achieved in accordance with international legality, and which would require a comparable commitment on the part of the Israeli government.

Having listened to the statement made by his royal highness Prince Abdullah bin Abdul Aziz, crown prince of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, in which his highness presented his initiative calling for full Israeli withdrawal from all the Arab territories occupied since June 1967, in implementation of Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338, reaffirmed by the Madrid Conference of 1991 and the land-for-peace principle, and Israel's acceptance of an independent Palestinian state with East Jerusalem as its capital, in return for the establishment of normal relations in the context of a comprehensive peace with Israel.

Emanating from the conviction of the Arab countries that a military solution to the conflict will not achieve peace or provide security for the parties, the council:

1. Requests Israel to reconsider its policies and declare that a just peace is its strategic option as well.

2. Further calls upon Israel to affirm:

I- Full Israeli withdrawal from all the territories occupied since 1967, including the Syrian Golan Heights, to the June 4, 1967 lines as well as the remaining occupied Lebanese territories in the south of Lebanon.

II- Achievement of a just solution to the Palestinian refugee problem to be agreed upon in accordance with UN General Assembly Resolution 194.

III- The acceptance of the establishment of a sovereign independent Palestinian state on the Palestinian territories occupied since June 4, 1967 in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, with East Jerusalem as its capital.

3. Consequently, the Arab countries affirm the following:

I- Consider the Arab-Israeli conflict ended, and enter into a peace agreement with Israel, and provide security for all the states of the region

II- Establish normal relations with Israel in the context of this comprehensive peace.

4. Assures the rejection of all forms of Palestinian patriation which conflict with the special circumstances of the Arab host countries

5. Calls upon the government of Israel and all Israelis to accept this initiative in order to safeguard the prospects for peace and stop the further shedding of blood, enabling the Arab countries and Israel to live in peace and good neighborliness and provide future generations with security, stability and prosperity

6. Invites the international community and all countries and organizations to support this initiative.

7. Requests the chairman of the summit to form a special committee composed of some of its concerned member states and the secretary general of the League of Arab States to pursue the necessary contacts to gain support for this initiative at all levels, particularly from the United Nations, the Security Council, the United States of America, the Russian Federation, the Muslim states and the European Union."
___________

And this is the offer Israel made at Camp David in 2000:

link:

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1113

"The annexations and security arrangements would divide the West Bank into three disconnected cantons. In exchange for taking fertile West Bank lands that happen to contain most of the region’s scarce water aquifers, Israel offered to give up a piece of its own territory in the Negev Desert--about one-tenth the size of the land it would annex--including a former toxic waste dump.

Because of the geographic placement of Israel’s proposed West Bank annexations, Palestinians living in their new “independent state” would be forced to cross Israeli territory every time they traveled or shipped goods from one section of the West Bank to another, and Israel could close those routes at will. Israel would also retain a network of so-called “bypass roads” that would crisscross the Palestinian state while remaining sovereign Israeli territory, further dividing the West Bank.

Israel was also to have kept "security control" for an indefinite period of time over the Jordan Valley, the strip of territory that forms the border between the West Bank and neighboring Jordan. Palestine would not have free access to its own international borders with Jordan and Egypt--putting Palestinian trade, and therefore its economy, at the mercy of the Israeli military.

Had Arafat agreed to these arrangements, the Palestinians would have permanently locked in place many of the worst aspects of the very occupation they were trying to bring to an end. For at Camp David, Israel also demanded that Arafat sign an "end-of-conflict" agreement stating that the decades-old war between Israel and the Palestinians was over and waiving all further claims against Israel"

snip:"In April 2002, the countries of the Arab League--from moderate Jordan to hardline Iraq--unanimously agreed on a Saudi peace plan centering around full peace, recognition and normalization of relations with Israel in exchange for a complete Israeli withdrawal to the 1967 borders as well as a "just resolution" to the refugee issue. Palestinian negotiator Nabil Sha'ath declared himself "delighted" with the plan. "The proposal constitutes the best terms of reference for our political struggle," he told the Jordan Times (3/28/02)."

read full article:

The Myth of the Generous Offer
Distorting the Camp David negotiations

By Seth Ackerman

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1113