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Daveparts Donating Member (854 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 03:34 PM
Original message
Flat Tax Flat Stupid




Several Years ago as a resident of Gwinnett County Georgia I had as my state Representative John Linder (R) He had developed this off the wall plan, and he saw himself as a sort of Luke Skywalker and he was out to destroy the evil empire. His plan was to blow up the IRS death star! “But how master Luke they are too powerful?” His daring plan was to fly his X wing fighter to Washington and destroy the IRS with the “force” of a flat tax.

But young Linder was naïve, he couldn’t understand why the peasants wouldn’t rise up and join his quest. Then it came to him it’s not the plan they don’t like it’s the name of the plan they don’t like and he relaunched his plan into the heavens as the fair tax! Who wouldn’t support fair? How could you protest and say give me unfair or give me death!
But young Luke still had much to learn being a back water Congressman in the resistance he joined forces with Neal Boortz (rhymes with dorks) a sawdust Rush Limbaugh conservative talk show host who would become young Linder’s Jabba the Hut.

Together with crayons and paper they wrote out their manifesto, it begins with “When Karl Marx wrote the communist manifesto,” Well that’s all I need to hear if the communists like the old system I’m agin it! I wonder what Karl Marx thought about puppies and birthday parties for small children? The problem Luke and Jabba explained, wasn’t with taxes the problem was the IRS. Kind of like the problem isn’t the traffic lights and stops signs the problems is the cops! Loaded with such logic they set out to destroy the IRS death star and as you are aware in America you can sell almost anything.

Well we live in a funny country in America we have this desire for new and are willing try anything new because we hate anything old. Old buildings, old people, old policies we will try even the most obviously stupid plan if we label it new. If I sold a million pet rocks and the sales begin to slump we’d then repackage them as New! And improved pet rocks.

Perhaps you don’t think the pet rock analogy is very fair, that means then perhaps you probably haven’t read their book or booklet. All the troubles of the world will just melt away with a simply 23% sales tax! Life will be wonderful everyday a sunny day Jews and Arabs will dance together in the streets. You see, they want to make America’s tax code truly voluntary! Why that’s perfectly fair, that’s voluntary and who could be against that? In fact that’s such a good idea lets make utility bills voluntary too! Taxes are used to pay the bills of government your not visiting a museum where they ask for a donation but maybe I’m just unfair and I should give it a chance.

They want replace today’s indecipherable tax code with a simple sales tax, let me say thank you mister, why last year there I was trying to figure out the depreciation amounts on my overseas investments when I got word of a fire in my condo in Aspen. Oh it was terrible what could I do? All these taxes to do a fire to deal with and I was scheduled to be back to work at Burger King in the morning, Say, that flat tax sound like a great idea! Why instead of all those complicated deductions I could keep the whole two hundred dollars a week wow!

I got so excited I went out to by a new Mustang, right at thirty grand but then the sales man explained with the new flat tax the purchase price would now be thirty eight thousand nine hundred dollars. An extra nine thousand dollars, so what, I get to keep the whole two hundred from my paycheck. The salesman explained with nothing down and zero percent financing my payments would be five hundred dollars a month. I said “Let her roll big daddy I’m bringing home two hundred skins a week now!” Then he interrupted me saying if I financed the sales tax over five years my payments would be six hundred and forty eight dollars a month.

I was disappointed as I left the dealership I really wanted that car, the salesman seemed equally disappointed too, apparently I wasn’t the only one to discover the pitfalls of new wealth in a voluntary tax system. So I climbed in my old heap and went to get lunch but as I passed the gas station my jaw dropped where the price had been $2.19 yesterday today was $2.79 with the new sales tax. Fifty cents a gallon on a ten gallon fill up but that’s only twenty bucks a month and after all I’m rich now. I went down to clown burger and ordered a Mcfat and sloppy combo and the guy tells me “That will be $6.81” What? It was $4.95 yesterday? He pointed to a picture of a smiling clown holding a banner that read; don’t blame us you wanted it fair!

So as I sat there eating my combo and it occurred to me that now that I was rich I had better start spending my money wisely. I would follow the American dream and purchase a home that would be a great investment plus I’d get a tax deduction, no wait no I wouldn’t not any more but hey what do I care I’m rich! So I found this nice place and offered them one 120 grand and they accepted but much to my surprise the final price of the home would be 156 thousand. Boy that threw a kink in the machine with the sales tax I would have to finance 36 thousand dollars at 7.5% interest for thirty years. That’s 20 thousand dollars interest just to finance the sales tax on my dream home. Well yes, the banker explained perhaps you could pay with cash?

Heck I’m rich now I exclaimed but I’m not that rich, I went home crest fallen here I was rich yet I couldn’t afford anything under this voluntary tax system! When I got home my mailbox was full of bills I can pay these at least, but they all had a new box on the invoices marked sales tax you see I was voluntarily purchasing electricity and water and natural gas and cable TV and a cell phone. I’ll be lucky if I have enough left to eat on I thought, I took my last hundred bucks to Kroger and bought the whole hundred dollars worth the cashier rang it up $131.00 Huh? I asked, how do you figure that? “A hundred dollars worth of groceries $23.00 Federal sales tax $8.00 dollars state sales tax” “But wait I thought the fair tax would get rid of state taxes!” He looked at me puzzled and asked, “Are you on drugs how could the feds and the state work together on something like that?”

And then It dawned on me I spend 100% of what I make voluntarily just trying to stay alive. I wonder what percentage of their incomes Bill Gates or Oprah or Dick Cheney pay just to stay alive? So I wondered what is going to happen to the economy if everything is taxed at 23% how will we survive?

Well to my relief none of my stock and bonds would be taxed and my parent’s estate tax would be done away with had it been over a quarter of a million dollars. And corporate income taxes would be done away with as well as the taxes on my dividends check and the gift tax would be eliminated! To me being a layman not having the wisdom of Jabba the Hut Boortz or Luke Skywalker Linder it seems they’ve eliminated the death tax and replaced it with the life tax if you work to stay alive you pay it. Maybe a better name would be the Paris Hilton tax relief act if you were Paris Hilton this program is the greatest idea since the coke spoon but if you work for a living and voluntarily spend 100% of it trying to stay alive this is the worst idea since jalapeno hemorrhoid cream and as strange as it might seems I find myself pulling for Darth Vader.

Then as I realized I had gone over to the dark side it occurred to me Luke and Company destroyed the death star of the IRS, who was going to collect all these taxes from all these voluntary tax payers the home purchasers utilities companies and the new car dealers? What address do they put on the envelope? What if there is a discrepancy? Will the money just magically appear in congressional coffers like direct deposit? Or will it have to be handled by my state revenue department? And won’t my state departments have to employ more workers and need to raise taxes to pay for it? I wonder how they will like that idea? It doesn’t sound very voluntary for them as they do the work for Uncle Sam, Gratis!

But what about the poor? Luke, won’t the poor suffer? “Of course not, they can file for a refund at the end of the year for any taxes they might have overpaid. But Luke who do they apply to? You blew up the IRS death star! And isn’t that the system we’ve got now less the deductions and benefits? He asked if I was a communist or something because Karl Marx liked the old system, then I asked, Luke it will cost the poor thousands of dollars how will they pay until they can apply for their refund from the agency that doesn’t exist anymore? But Luke said, I cannot answer any more of your questions I have other worlds to destroy!
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
1. K&R!! This is the best and most accurate
Edited on Tue Jan-16-07 03:41 PM by Warpy
demolition of that harebrained flat tax idea so many people who want to be FAIR to the super rich have been pushing for so long, even here on DU.

On edit: If you lifted this from a web site, we need the link. Additionally, we're only supposed to paste 4 paragraphs due to copyright reasons.

Still, thank for this.
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wilt the stilt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
2. you must live in Peachtree corners.
I also live here
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
3. This is excellent!
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uberotto Donating Member (589 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
4. I've always liked the idea of a "flat tax"...
just not a sales tax. I think there should be a flat tax of 1/10 of 1% of your total net worth. Since most people are like me, and hope to someday manage to crawl up to $0 net worth by the day we die, we will never have to pay any tax...

Poor old Bill Gates, however will have to come up with approx. $60,000,000 every April 15th.

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ntesla Donating Member (31 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
5. I agree with our original Constitution
1.Income made from labor should be off limits.
2.The founders had no problem with taxing company profits.
3.Control of our currency/wealth should be done by government and not private organizations like the Federal Reserve.
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
6. Excellent piece.
Best summation:

And then It dawned on me I spend 100% of what I make voluntarily just trying to stay alive. I wonder what percentage of their incomes Bill Gates or Oprah or Dick Cheney pay just to stay alive? So I wondered what is going to happen to the economy if everything is taxed at 23% how will we survive?

Best line:

this is the worst idea since jalapeno hemorrhoid cream

:rofl:
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Nite Owl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
7. Good piece
Daveparts!

And welcome to DU.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 04:11 PM
Response to Original message
8. Why is it when people talk about the flat tax
they pull outrageous numbers out of their ass and insist on confusing income tax with sales tax?

If you think the rich are going to pay 23% in sales taxes, you're dreaming.

I pay a tad over 30% on my income. I don't mind doing that, but I'd love to see Bill Gates and others pay the same amount, which you know they don't.
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flamin lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 04:34 PM
Response to Original message
9. Welcome to DU!!!!!
Looking forward to more of this!
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flamin lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
10. I had a friend pitch the flat tax to me a few years back.
I suggested he pull his past tax returns and see what the actual % of his gross income went to income taxes. After deductions and such the tax rate was only abuut 12% of his gross income although it was 25% of his taxable income.

Hushed him right up!
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IronLionZion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
11. You know who else is against this idea?
Bush, Cheney, and most Republicans,. There are Republicans and Democrats for it, and Republicans and Democrats against it. The plan's support and opposition transcends all political ideologies.

You neglected to address the tremendous amount of money spent on administrative costs concerning tax preparation and collection. You also neglected the wealthy people who avoid the income tax because they hire lawyers and accountants who know how to hide taxable income. You incorrectly slapped the sales tax on top of existing prices when the reality is that the existing prices would be reduced so some if not most of the tax would be offset. I like how you mentioned corporate income taxes. Do corporations pay taxes? Really? BULL, corporations are fictional legal entities. Only individuals pay taxes.

My biggest beef with the "fair tax" is that it is on finished goods. An easy way to cheat is by purchasing a "used" house or whatever. Mortgage payments ought to be taxed the same as rent though.

A VAT on raw materials would greatly cut out the potential for fraud at the point of sale.

I don't necessarily support John Linder's plan, but you have grossly misrepresented it here.

I've got to go now, so don't think I'm running away. I'll gladly discuss this any time you want. There is an economics topic forum here.
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Scriptor Ignotus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. don't C Corporations have to pay taxes?
ALso, I thought S Corporations can pass on the taxes to their shareholders. The shareholders then pay higher taxes.
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IronLionZion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. What exactly is a corporation?
"A corporation is a legal entity which, while being owned collectively by a number of natural persons, exists completely separately from them. This separation gives the corporation unique powers which other legal entities lack. The extent and scope of its status and capacity is determined by the law of the place of incorporation."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_corporation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S_corporation

No matter what sort of legal terms you use to describe it, ultimately only individuals pay taxes.
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Daveparts Donating Member (854 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Corporations pay taxes on their Profits
If I don't purchase from that corporation I am exempt from their taxes.
If I don't buy a new Bell Helicopter I don't pay their taxes
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
12. FDR & Tom Jefferson understood prohressive taxes
Edited on Tue Jan-16-07 08:44 PM by FogerRox
A Middle class is a rare thing, occurring only 3 times thru-out history. The first rising of a middle class occurred as a result of the Black Plague. The Black Plague killed about 30% of the worlds population, creating a labor shortage. This allowed that Trades & Craftsman to command a higher wage, which trickled down to the common yeoman, much as the unionization of US labor in the middle 1900's allowed non union labor to command wages akin to union labor. Some have written that the renaissance, without a middle class that had the liesure time to even consider art & music, let alone the time to paint, sculpt, write & perform music, would have never occurred.

The second rising of a middle class occurred in the US colonies in the middle 1700's. Once a few Indians were driven away from an area, there was free land available for farming. In an agrarian society this was a big deal in that you could own your own land, grow & sell your own crops & keep the profits, much as a family owned business does today.

The third rising of a middle class occurred during the Great Republican Depression of the early 1930's. FDR's New Deal brought forward tax progressivity, as well as labor rights earned thru the union movement, such as the Child Labor laws passed in 1937 & 1938, (Kids do belong in school afterall).





http://rdanafox.blogspot.com/2006/11/tax-rates-middle-class.html
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wakeme2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 05:17 AM
Response to Original message
13. And what most ppl do not understand is you want a new car you pay
the tax, you want a new 45 Million dollar boat, you go offshore and buy it without tax. Joe Average will pay, Daddy Big Bucks will not.
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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-22-07 05:57 PM
Response to Original message
17. This is All True
Edited on Mon Jan-22-07 06:22 PM by ribofunk
and it may help some people in thinking through the consequences of substituting incomes taxes with a sales tax or VAT.

What I think is the most dishonest is that the idea of introducing a flat income tax in order to simplify it. Tax brackets DO NOT complicate the income tax at all. They just force higher income people into higher tax brackets. It would not simplify taxes one iota if everyone paid the same nominal percent.

What supporters of the so-called flat tax really want is for the IRS to scrap the complex system of ensuring that tax avoiders have developed of hiding income.

Rich people with tax accountants have hundreds of ways of minimizing their taxable income through deductions, deferrals, gifts, etc, but there's a limit and there's still the minimum tax as a ground floor.

Going to a simplified system would open up the floodgates. I guaranteed that the year after it was introduced, 50 of the richest people in the US would file returns showing that they had no taxable revenue. Without the complexity of how to define taxable income, it's almost guaranteed.

THAT's the problem with the flat tax.
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Indy Lurker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-05-07 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
18. Flat Tax dosen't have to be regressive
I think a flat tax is good because it treats everyone the same.

When you start charging different people different rate, you end up with class warfare.


The simple way to stop a flat tax from being regressive, is to have high deductibles.

Make the flat tax rate 50% (or whatever you want the richest to pay.) and then make your deductibles $25,000 for adults, and $15,000 per kid. Or whatever seems fair, and makes the total revenue necessary work.


Family of 4 with an income of $50,000 pays $0 Effective Tax rate of 0%
Family of 4 with an income of $80,000 pays $0 Effective Tax rate of 0%
Family of 4 with an income of $100,000 pays $10,000 Effective Tax rate of 10%
Family of 4 with an income of $150,000 pays $35,000 Effective Tax rate of 23%
Family of 4 with an income of $200,000 pays $60,000 Effective Tax rate of 30%
Family of 4 with an income of $250,000 pays $85,000 Effective Tax rate of 34%
Family of 4 with an income of $500,000 pays $210,000 Effective Tax rate of 42%
Family of 4 with an income of $1,000,000 pays $499,960 Effective Tax rate of 49%


Deductibles could reflect wan actual cost of living. (why should we be taxed on basic necessities)

Having such a simple plan makes it hard to hide loopholes, or pit one group against another.

Also, being so simple, everyone will be able to understand changes to it, instead of just having their eyes glaze over.

There are only two numbers, the flat tax rate, and the deductible. You can't cut taxes for the rich without cutting taxes for everyone.

Politicians will be fighting to raise the deductibles, to help the "middle class"
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Daveparts Donating Member (854 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Class Warfare
Exsists it is real! it is human nature the starving in Darfur envy the starving that have spoons. Those that ate two days ago envy those that ate yesterday and those that ate today.

But the difference is in that exsistance all are powerless. In our society those with wealth use their wealth to advance themselves to the detriment of their countrymen. The greed of wealth compels them to take until they steal the spoon from your bowl.

To deny class warfare is to live in fantasyland and who told you this fantasy?If you make less than 2 to 3 hundred thousand dollars this year
not only are you in a class war but your losing badly! Bushes new budget is the Normandy invasion of class warfare!
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