An interesting comparison between the US and the Roman Empire.

[redphish]

The New Centurions
In showing ignorance of the outside world, America is doing as Rome did

By Cullen Murphy
Published June 10, 2007


The Rome and America comparison is very much in the air these days -- you have only to cock an ear. It's invoked by those who yearn for a worldwide Pax Americana, and also by those who wring their hands about an impending "decline and fall."

In truth, ancient Rome and modern America differ in a thousand ways. But a handful of parallels hold up.

One has to do with the way we view the outside world. Imperial Rome often knew little about the people beyond its frontiers. Disparaging those people, it underestimated their capabilities. America's motives in the world may be more well-meaning than Rome's, but our behavior is handicapped by the same disability. In our ignorance, we don't see what's coming at us -- or what we're hurtling toward.

<snip>

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chi-rome_thinkjun10,0,763682.story?coll=chi-newsopinionperspective-hed

[Wilms]

1. I made a "tinyurl" of the link as it would not post in original form.

http://tinyurl.com/ytc7yw

Thanks for posting.

[seemslikeadream]

2. “Nemesis: The Last Days of the American Republic.”

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1078166

[redphish]

3. We never seem to learn from the mistakes of history.

[Peace Patriot]

4. "America's motives...may be more well-meaning than Rome's"?? Stop right there.

I haven't read the whole thing yet, but I got stopped cold in paragraph 3, above.

Two thoughts:

1. That is no longer true. It's been a mixed bag all along, but with the Bush Junta, "our" motives have turned wholly to the dark side. Really, what is the difference between Hitler's invasion of Czechoslovakia and Bush's invasion of Iraq? The biggest difference--and indeed the only one--I can see is that, 56% of the American people opposed the invasion of Iraq (Feb. '03, NYT and all polls), and that opposition has now grown to over 70% (with no change of policy!). The Germans were more enthusiastic, or were worse suckers for war propaganda.

2. Which brings me to my other thought. There is an enormous divide in this country between the rulers and the people. The people want a good, just, lawful, peace-minded government. The rulers want to steal other peoples' oil, use the common people as cannon fodder, loot everything in sight, and turn us all into slave labor with no rights. So, I would say that the majority of Americans are well-meaning--and certainly more well-meaning than the Roman plebes--while our leaders are clearly out to loot and plunder, and dominate and colonize the world, for the benefit of the few. Most people know that this is not in our interest.

The plebes and middle class business people of the Roman Empire were happy enough to have cheap slaves from the hinterlands, and a great wealth of resources stripped from the conquered peoples. There were some benefits to Roman citizenship and indeed to Roman rule. Peoples who didn't know each other at all soon did--as the result of Roman roads and communication systems. Roman citizenship could be obtained by the outlanders, and some slaves were able to buy their way out of slavery (it was not a particularly racist institution). The conquered peoples were, in some ways, less ill-treated than some modern European colonies and many U.S. economic conquests (third world countries devastated by "free trade"). Rome in fact wanted good order, generally installed local leadership and respected local customs, cultures and languages, and were not out to loot and destroy economies, but to build them up--get them in working order, so they could serve Rome. (Can we say that of, say, Argentina, or Guatemala, or Jamaica, or Colombia?--or Iraq?) Bear in mind this was 2,000 years ago. It's hard to make comparisons. And standards of decency and individual rights have greatly changed.

I would say that there is a qualitative difference in the level of information that "the plebes" (all of us) have, in our awareness of our rights as individuals, in the quality and breadth of our education (for all its faults), and in our attachment to lawful government and democratic process. The similarity is between the oligarchs of the Roman Empire--who destroyed their own Republic--and our Corporate Rulers. Are THEY "America" in the phrase "America's motives"? I don't think they are. They have usurped the word "America." They are anti-American, in my view--traitors, disloyal ones--much like those who betrayed the Roman Republic. THEY have created THEIR OWN over-extended empire, which they cannot govern. The American people didn't want this war, and want it even less now. It's no advantage to us whatsoever. It has inflicted us and our children and our children's children with a $10 trillion deficit. It flies in the face of all our ideals--for instance, that America doesn't start wars, and reviles unjust ones. So, the empire-makers have dragged us kicking and screaming into their nefarious "Project for a New American Century" --whereas the plebes of Rome cheered their conquering heroes for the gifts they brought back, which made them rich. Oh, you could satirize American consumers, I guess, and ridicule their hypocritical SUVs. But, on the whole, I think we're more savvy about the meaning of conquest and empire, and would easily and gladly convert to alternative energy, if we could get the leadership we need to do it. Really, Americans don't like war, don't like to feel that they are being exploitative and unfair, and DO want to save the planet, and do support social justice and peace.

"Well-meaning"? Yeah, I think we are. I think the REAL America is. But our leaders are not. And therein lay a grave, grave problem for the would-be emperors.

----------------------

Note: I think what we HAVE BEEN--that "mixed bag" I was referring to--since, oh, the end of WW II, is a different discussion, which came to a head around the Vietnam War, and was uneasily resolved, or rather buried, in the subsequent decades. I'm talking about NOW--the Bush Junta and its Democratic Party colluders, and the Global Corporate Predators who rule all. With the Bush Junta, our country's leadership has leapt into darkness--into fascism--whereas before we had a contest, a constant struggle, between imperial and democratic forces. Example: The Iran-Contra scandal, Reagan waging war on Nicaragua, against a law passed by Congress, and Congress then stopping it, and investigating it, and even putting some of the perps in jail. They should have impeached Reagan for it, but they were already too compromised by the tax code re-write favoring the rich. They shared too much of Reagan's enthusiasm for the Era of Greed. But at least it was a struggle. And the death squads in Nicaragua were stopped. That was then. Now look at Iraq, and tell me that "America" (our oligarchy) is "well-meaning." It's obvious that it is not--and that there is no real struggle going on. The Democrats have largely supported this heinous war, and just permitted its ESCALATION, and just larded the war profiteers with $100 billion more of our tax dollars--in the teeth of 70+% opposition by the American people, and probably 90% opposition in the Democratic Party.