"Snapshots of War" from Guardian/Observer. More on Torture Fallout....

[KoKo]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1208459,00.html

Iraq
Snapshots of war

Leader
Monday May 3, 2004
The Guardian

Whatever the provenance of the photographs showing British soldiers appearing to beat and humiliate an Iraqi prisoner, the real damage has already been done. The image of a British soldier with his boot on the neck of an Iraqi prisoner will only fuel the revulsion in the Arab and Muslim world previously ignited by the photographs of US soldiers tormenting and humiliating their captives at Abu Ghraib prison. The unhappy fact is that these will almost certainly not be the last such snapshots of war.

General Sir Michael Jackson, the chief of the general staff, was right to quickly condemn the most recent pictures and announce an immediate investigation. Whatever the outcome, it will have little effect once the photographs have been paraded on Arab television and newspapers. What both sets of photographs reveal is a mindset and attitude towards Iraqis held by a disturbing number of members of the coalition forces. Further evidence of this appears in the 53-page internal army memo written by a US general, revealed in the New Yorker magazine. It reports that US forces at Abu Ghraib carried out "sadistic, blatant and wanton criminal abuses" of Iraqi prisoners, including sodomy and violence. The report is said to contain detailed witness statements and "extremely graphic photographic evidence".

While it may be true that these are, as the White House and Number 10 insist, only isolated incidents, they again point to the familiar dangers of using armed forces as peacekeepers, a role for which they are rarely trained or equipped to perform. For all the declarations that British troops are more experienced at peacekeeping, thanks to their regular tours of service in Northern Ireland, it should be recognised that the differences in language, religion and culture means that patrolling the streets of Belfast and those of Basra are hardly comparable. It is well to remember that even in the friendlier environment of Northern Ireland, the British army had its enough of its own difficulties with peacekeeping, including the activities of elite units such as the Parachute Regiment.

Even more disturbing is the suggestion, by the US army commander being investigated over the events at Abu Ghraib prison, that US military intelligence and CIA officers conducted interrogation at the prison and went to great lengths to hide their activities from both their colleagues in the US army and officials from the International Red Cross. Backed up by reports from former prisoners and by the testimony of one of the US military guards now accused of abusing their charges, the overwhelming impression is of goodwill being squandered, and of a war being lost.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1208459,00.html

[yelladawg]

1. Let's be easy with this subject.

War is war. It hasn't changed in thousands of years. I don't care how advanced or technical it gets, you win when the person with a weapon is standing on the ground and no one is left to fight him. That weapon can be a big rock or a laser guided phaser from Star Wars. When the last gunt is standing, then that side won.

War is very mean. A man will do what it takes to stay alive. Kill men, women, children, burn villages and eat dead burned baby flesh.

You people out there who have never been in a firefight to the death will never understand.

Let's be easy with this subject.

[thebigidea]

2. "let's be easy with this subject" - don't count on it, pal-a-round

I bet you'd like us to "be easy with this subject."

"A man will do what it takes to stay alive. Kill men, women, children, burn villages and eat dead burned baby flesh."

Boy, I can't tell you how many times I was forced into eating dead burned baby flesh. Ok, not exactly forced. Fine, that's what I generally order when I hit the local "Sizzler" - if such resturaunts even exist any more. But they sure did back when I was eating dead burned baby flesh! Which is great with cayenne pepper and a side of garlic mashed potatoes.

So how exactly does a man doing anything to stay alive tie into torturing prisoners? How did that keep the soldiers alive?

[CJCRANE]

3. war is war, but peacekeeping is not war n/t

..

[Disturbed]

4. War

Torturing and humiliating prisoners has zero excuses.

[yelladawg]

5. Don't blame the soldiers

Try to help the soldiers that are there for an unjust cause. Have these guards been in a recent firefight? Have they picked up a bloody goo that was once their buddy and they are now forced to guard the enemy that killed their friend?

What men do in war, what they are forced to do to stay alive...yes what they did was wrong.

Should we offer help to these soldiers or put them in prison? Who do we condemn, the cause or the soldiers?

Do we know the pressures these guards were under?

Yes, what they did was terrible and the nightmares will haunt them forever. I think we should hold the people who sent them there accountable, not the guards.

[bpilgrim]

6. put them on TRIAL

and the LEADERSHIP that ordered it.

there is NO excuse.

we better SPEAK OUT LOUDLY now and stop this before it comes to US, hello...



"Something terrible happened here 30 years ago today," Hugh Thompson, a U.S. Army pilot who used his helicopter to shield Vietnamese from the slaughter, told the crowd. "I cannot explain why it happened. I just wish our crew that day could have helped more people than we did."

As Thompson spoke, the crowd surged forward to catch a glimpse of the pilot hailed as a hero. Many in the crowd, particularly Vietnamese soldiers, applauded after his brief remarks.

...

"May we never forget again the heartbreak and brutality of war," said Lawrence Colburn, the gunner on Thompson's helicopter in 1968. "I believe in my heart and pray to God that we can achieve peace on Earth."

...

Former U.S. and Vietnamese soldiers were present for the ceremony, but no diplomats from the United States attended. One official in Vietnam's ruling Communist Party was on hand. Both governments, now preaching reconciliation, have downplayed the anniversary.

more...
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9803/16/my.lai/

psst... pass the word

peace

[acmavm]

7. Seriously, who are you trying to kid? There is a BIG difference between

RIGHT and WRONG. This was WRONG on so many levels. And these people enjoyed it. Look at Lynndee's face. She's at a party. She's the center of attention. She's having a real gooooood time. Thumbs up everyone.

I love the excuse that people who go through basic training have been taught not to question the orders they are given. So a few months of basic training can totally erase a lifetime's experience and knowledge of right and wrong? Jeez, what kind of people do you think we have in the military these days? There have been enough examples during the years of what is and is not acceptable human behavior. Obviously these clowns missed it.

Oh yeah, I agree, get the top guys responsible for this as well. And start asking questions about why the hell private contractors are running Iraqi prisons. And tell me again, why did they order the general in charge of the prison to stay away from certain areas? Because they knew, absolutely KNEW that once the word got out, we were cooked in the Middle East. Not just Iraq, the entire Middle East.