Refusing to get vaccinated is selfish

[lefty369]

Source: Globe and Mail

Juliet Guichon and Ian Mitchell
Refusing to get vaccinated is selfish

A recent poll indicated that 48 per cent of Canadians might refuse the H1N1 vaccination – and that number went up to 51 per cent in an online poll reported in yesterday's Globe and Mail. These figures suggest that many Canadians are not considering the public good and have a misguided understanding of their personal interest.

According to Canada's Chief Public Health Officer, David Butler-Jones, the risk of experiencing severe side effects after receiving the shot is one in a million, compared with the 20 to 35 per cent of the population who will get sick from this pandemic flu without protection. “If every single Canadian is inoculated,” he said, “then 30 Canadians could have the potential for a severe side effect, compared to 10 million people sick, 100,000 people in hospital and 10,000 people dead.”

Mass H1N1 vaccination refusal similarly might destroy (at least temporarily) our health-care system, with the threatened 100,000 people in hospital. We have a limited number of hospital beds and respirators and a finite number of people who know how best to use them. Every vaccinated person increases the likelihood that health-care professionals will be free to treat other people. What's more, inoculation reduces transmission. If unvaccinated people make health-care workers sick, they cannot look after other patients

Read more: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/refusing-to-get-vaccinated-is-selfish/article1339120/

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Canadian article but applies everywhere imo

[LynneSin]

1. How can one be selfish if there is no vaccination available?

Maybe they have better luck up in Canada but here in the states it's kinda difficult to refuse what you weren't offered.

[get the red out]

8. exactly

If you are healthy, I don't know how you do get vaccinated where I live.

[meegbear]

2. This is an opinion piece, not news

[JonQ]

3. Ah but what if there is a limited supply

(as there is) and you refuse to get one on the premise that one for you means one other person who might be at a greater risk would be denied the vaccine? They advocate that sort of thing all the time.

[acsmith]

4. this is shite.

[Ian David]

5. There is a shortage of vaccine. Those who refuse to get vaccinated are doing us a favor. n/t

[mzteris]

6. not to mention that whole

Darwin thing . . .

[Ian David]

7. Like I said. They're doing us a favor. In several ways. n/t

[Ho Tai]

9. I'm no epidemiologist...

So could someone please show me how this guy is full of it, without ad hominem, appeal to authority, etc. (i.e. attack the argument with facts, please). Thanks.

http://www.thedoctorwithin.com/swine/swine-flu.php

[mzteris]

11. If you want to get your

epidemiological advice from a chiropractor, go right ahead. . .

There's so much wrong with what he's posting, I wouldn't even know where to start. Not to mention I don't have the time nor the inclination to wade into that morass of twisted and fallacious "reasoning".

Sorry, but if you want to understand this, try researching for yourself. (pssssssssst - it's called "critical thinking")

[wolfgangmo]

15. You could have been at least polite...

... while refusing to answer his question (for what may be very valid reasons), but you just couldn't resist being an ass, could you?

How do you think that advances the understanding of the problem. The view must be pretty nice from your ivory tower.

[Ho Tai]

16. Thank you, wolfgangmo

I was going to ignore the pipsqueak's reply, but thank you.

I've got 2 university degrees, so I'm not sure but I think I've heard of critical thinking...

And even tho Dr. O'Shea is a lowly stinking chiropractor, he's done some critical thinking, too, in a way that's convincing to a layman. If I try researching this I know I'll find arguments on both sides that sound convincing to me. So I was hoping that someone who knows this stuff backwards & forwards might peruse the article & tell me how it's wrong or right. Not as a chore but as a kind of exercise, like playing the scales or something.

Did you perchance read the Letters section in the Globe about their "selfishness" article, "The swine flu fuss?" Assuming that Mr. Schafer of Winnipeg isn't making this up: the southern hemisphere has just gone through its flu season, and if you're apocalyptic you'll be disappointed. New Zealand was predicting 18,000 deaths. Actual total: 17! Similar data from Australia & Argentina.

SELFISH? I say, guilting people into getting a shot which they probably don't need & which carries a chance of paralysis or even death, to enrich the bottom line for big pharma is EVIL.

Discuss. :)

[SheilaT]

10. Those of us who are over 60

and lived through tha last two type A influenza epidemics probably don't need the shot. I'm not getting it. I never do the seasonal flu shots either. Doesn't mean others shouldn't get the vaccine.

But every so often something will slip out from the CDC which indicates the flu shots, while helpful, are not the !00% protection some would like you to think. Plus, there are those, such as people with allergy to eggs, who can't get the shots.

[emilyg]

12. That's ok. I believe in

enlightened selfishness.

[winyanstaz]

13. A few articles to concider...

"The U.S. Food and Drug Administration is allowing the use of an experimental antiviral drug to treat severe cases of H1N1 or swine flu."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,569568,00.html

that is what ol foxnews says...

and here is another link :
"In a move that is sure to generate controversy, Missouri’s top public health official granted an exemption Thursday that allows pregnant women and parents of children younger than 3 to choose whether to receive H1N1 flu vaccine containing a mercury-based preservative"

http://www.joplinglobe.com/fluwatch/local_story_296214326.html?keyword=topstory

[LeftishBrit]

14. While I am pro-vaccination for this flu...

I don't think that it's selfish to refuse it (unless you are a healthcare worker or a carer for a vulnerable person) under present conditions. There isn't enough vaccine available, so if you refuse it, it frees up an extra dose for someone else.

[bemildred]

17. Pretty thin gruel.

Can't we do any better than fear mongering and name calling?

[Grinchie]

18. The only thing Mass refusal of the Vaccine would do is help prove the BS about Flu Vaccine

This so called Herd Immunity ploy depends solely on Herd Mentality.

Take a pill, take a shot, ignore and bypass your own immune system. Yeah, thats the ticket.

Humans haven't gone extinct yet, and Vaccines are only about 80 years old, so I tend to think that the Human organism is a little stronger that what the Pharmaceutical companies are telling us.

We have over 130,000 people a year diying from prescribed medication , taken as directed, and you guys seem to think that injecting foreign ptoteins and scrambled Chicken DNA deep within your tissues is a good thing.

It may work on serious illnesses such as Polio and Smallpox, but as far as the Influenza goes, you might as well declare a war on Pollen and Malnutrition and make claims that Dr. Crabtree's mircale vaccine will cure what ails you.

A few years ago, the entire population of cruise ships were afflicted with Norwalk viruses, afflicting nearly 8,000 people at a time, many having been sold the Vacation of their lives. How come there is no vaccine for the Norwalk virus? It's just as nasty as the Flu, but for some reason, not profitable enough to warrant a vaccine.

As for being selfish, I have no problem being selfish. I'll be recovering from a mild casue of the flu while you guys are watching your arm turn black and blue and feeling like shit with a concentrated batch of toxins localized at the injection site.

It's my choice to not be a guinea pig or a sucker for Propaganda meant to support a 2 billion dollar a year industry that has paid for legislation to protect it from more study and research.

[LeftishBrit]

19. 'Humans haven't gone extinct yet and vaccines have only been around for 80 years'. HUH?

So it would be perfectly OK to return to the rates of death and disease that were common 100 years ago, just so long as the human race does not actually die out?

So as far as you are concerned the medically vulnerable ought to be prepared to die without access to medical aid in order to improve the gene pool by restricting survival to the 'tough' as was the case 100 years ago, or simply to prevent big pharma from profiting? Sorry but I'm not prepared to make the supreme sacrifice of my own or my family's health and lives; any more that someone with Parkinsons should be expected to sacrifice themselves because of religious opposition to stem celle research! It's one thing to oppose this particular vaccine; another to attack the BASIC HUMAN RIGHT to access to modern medicine just because humanity survived before modern medicine - even though very large numbers of individuals didn't, and life expectancy was about half what itis now.

'Take a pill, take a shot, ignore and bypass your own immune system. Yeah, thats the ticket.'

And what about the people whose immune systems CAN'T handle the diseases and who die? Are you basically demanding a 'survival of the fittest' approach? I am *not* saying that you shouldn't have the choice of taking the flu vaccine or not (there isn't enough for everyone anyway!); but I will fight to the death to preserve the BASIC HUMAN RIGHT to modern medicine (modern medicine and modern sanitation are two of the most precious things in the world as far as I am concerned - I hope you are not also against modern sanitation!)

P.S. The smallpox vaccination has been around a lot longer than 80 years.

[xchrom]

20. kick

[nightrain]

21. not necessarily. If more testing was done on this vaccine, we'd have

more assurance about its safety.

It's always a tough public health issue about requiring vaccinations.

[cornermouse]

22. For the most part, they're rationing the vaccinations.

You can't get one just because you want one. Around here you have to either be a child or an elderly person or someone with a known history of special health problems or someone who works directly with patients such as a doctor or nurse or therapist. If you aren't on that list, your chances of getting a vaccination until the flu epidemic is over and gone are pretty much nonexistant and beating people over the head isn't going to change a thing.

[canucksawbones]

23. yes vaccines are rationed this week

However enough vaccines in Canada have been distributed to vaccinate around 15% of the population. There was a slowdown in adjuvated vaccine last week to make the unadjuvated vaccine for pregnant women. Production goes back up next week for adjuvated vaccine and will again be available. Furthermore, flu tracking predicts a peak in cases in the early spring (same time as seasonal flus) in most of Canada. That means ideal times for vaccination are over the next several weeks (typically we like to vaccinate for early spring peaks in the month of November, allowing maximum efficacy at the peak, as flu vaccines lose efficacy in the body, getting flu vaccines too early means immunity garnered from the vaccine may wear off before the peak). Millions of doses will see Canadian clinics over the next several weeks with deliveries likely to be enough for greater than 70% of the population.

As a physician I received H1N1 vaccine 48 hours ago from the initial shipment I would have waited had it been earlier as I didn't want to get it too early, I recommend all those that want them to get one, it will take some time but more is being made as fast as possible. I also recommend the adjuvated injected vaccine over the live nasal vaccine, SE are typically less with killed vaccines.

As for selfishness, yes their is certainly a degree of that. Herd immunity has been well proven, many studies have shown that communities that have high percentages of vaccinated individuals will produce a higher level of immunity in vaccinated people than in communities with lesser vaccine penetration. Furthermore higher vaccine penetration also means that the virus can't spread as effectively as number of hosts drop. More immunized people mean a greater firewall to spread is afforded.

Although H1N1 is a mild disease in most, it is different to seasonal flus in that has a significant potential to cause a viral pneumonitis and subsequent ARDS. The standard seasonal flu simply does not invade the alveoli as H1N1 can. Those that get pneumonitis and ARDS mean that O2/C02 exchange is compromised substantially and even ventilation may not be able to oxygenate the blood well enough to survive. Moreover, those that do get sick, get sick very fast, often going from healthy to dead in a couple of days. It also doesn't discriminate. This flu kills strong healthy young people. One doesn't need to have compromised health to fall victim. It may not kill as many as the seasonal flu, but it kills those we don't expect.

Just as an aside. I got a viral pneumonitis with subsequent ARDS in 2001, I nearly dies and actually the Tertiary Care ICU told my family that I probably would die. I was 35 and healthy, I got flu-like symptoms on a Friday Afternoon and was in ER on Saturday morning and on a ventilator by Saturday night. I would risk any side effect from a vaccine before risking that again, I also know the risk of a serious vaccine SE is orders of magnitude less than my chance of getting a severe H1N1 infection, so it was really a no brainer decision.

A doctor

[cornermouse]

25. That's nice.

Around here they're saying very little vaccine for the forseeable future. I suspect that once they finally get the vaccine, it will be too late to keep most of the people who are going to get sick from getting sick. I'm sorry but there is no point in beating people over the head until the vaccine becomes available to the general population without restrictions.

[bemildred]

26. Gaaaah! Death panels!!!! nt

[waiting for hope]

24. There are 4,000 people in my area on a waiting list ..

and a big time shortage - are you selfish if you don't fall in the CDC's guidelines?

~Snip~

The committee does not expect that there will be a shortage of novel H1N1 vaccine, but availability and demand can be unpredictable. There is some possibility that initially the vaccine will be available in limited quantities. In this setting, the committee recommended that the following groups receive the vaccine before others:

* pregnant women,
* people who live with or care for children younger than 6 months of age,
* health care and emergency medical services personnel with direct patient contact,
* children 6 months through 4 years of age, and
* children 5 through 18 years of age who have chronic medical conditions.

~Snip~

http://www.cdc.gov/media/pressrel/2009/r090729b.htm

No one in my family falls into those categories .. I'm not worried about getting vaccinated.