How Christian Were the Founders?

[undeterred]

LAST MONTH, A WEEK before the Senate seat of the liberal icon Edward M. Kennedy fell into Republican hands, his legacy suffered another blow that was perhaps just as damaging, if less noticed. It happened during what has become an annual spectacle in the culture wars.

Over two days, more than a hundred people — Christians, Jews, housewives, naval officers, professors; people outfitted in everything from business suits to military fatigues to turbans to baseball caps — streamed through the halls of the William B. Travis Building in Austin, Tex., waiting for a chance to stand before the semicircle of 15 high-backed chairs whose occupants made up the Texas State Board of Education. Each petitioner had three minutes to say his or her piece.

“Please keep César Chávez” was the message of an elderly Hispanic man with a floppy gray mustache.

“Sikhism is the fifth-largest religion in the world and should be included in the curriculum,” a woman declared.

Following the appeals from the public, the members of what is the most influential state board of education in the country, and one of the most politically conservative, submitted their own proposed changes to the new social-studies curriculum guidelines, whose adoption was the subject of all the attention — guidelines that will affect students around the country, from kindergarten to 12th grade, for the next 10 years. Gail Lowe — who publishes a twice-a-week newspaper when she is not grappling with divisive education issues — is the official chairwoman, but the meeting was dominated by another member. Don McLeroy, a small, vigorous man with a shiny pate and bristling mustache, proposed amendment after amendment on social issues to the document that teams of professional educators had drawn up over 12 months, in what would have to be described as a single-handed display of archconservative political strong-arming.


http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/14/magazine/14texbooks-t.html

Long article, I'm just getting started. Unfortunately those who want to revise history don't usually read the NYT.

[OHdem10]

1. Most were not Christians as we know Christianity. Most were

Deists.

They encouraged Religious Practice. Theory if people were
going to church and practicing their religion , they would
probably better citizens. It was simply a way of providing
order. They were not promoting A Religion. Example: Madison
was an absolutist on separation of church and state. Keep
them separate.(Gary Wills). Most Founders were Deists: believed
in a Surpreme Being, Creator and their spirituality was private.

[d_r]

2. this is important

and it is enough to make you sick

[Moostache]

3. Religion - publically practice anyway - needs to simply go away already...

the private practice of one's beliefs (at least those that do not involve bringing physical harm to others) should remain just that - PRIVATE!

This is not, was not and never will be a "Christian Nation". That is a term with no meaning in the first place...because when pushed on what flavor of Christian we should be (Catholic? lots of them left, though fewer than before - myself being a former-Catholic; Baptist? Lutheran? Unitarian? Non-Denominational? Just-Plain-Gay-Hating-Crazies-From-Westboro?)- not one of these zealots would say anything other than their own chosen flavor-o'-Jebus.

The very idea of claiming this nation of immigrants as any specific religion is absurd.
Freedom of religion is just that - freedom to choose. Why do they hate freedom so much?

[RKP5637]

4. +1000 !!! I am so damn fed up hearing about religion in this place

loosely called a country. Too bad many don't realize these so called devout christians are the work of the devil in disguise they babble about all of the time! How can one conclude otherwise when you briefly listen to the evil they preach!

[noel711]

5. They weren't 'christian' as it is defined in our time

Most of the founding fathers were 'deist' which was more of a philosphy
than a theology.

What deism boils down to is that the world was made by a creator,
who then walked away, and is sitting in some cosmic rocking chair somewhere.
That's why deism is sometimes called 'clockmaker' theology-
the universe was made, and put on a shelf. The 'creator' has nothing to
do with whatever goes on. The 'creatures' of this creation have free will.

More detailed: Thomas Jefferson was NOT christian, but was probably agnostic,
having taken the New TEstament, and carefully went thru it with a razor,
and cut out every statement or story that was not explained by nature.
Todays fundies would be aghast, but it is true. YOu can probably find the
Jefferson New Testament in any public library; there are no unexplainable
or miracles stories therein. Jesus is just a nice guy preaching peace, who
got on the wrong end of the law.

Ben Franklin was pretty much against religion, but like George Washington,
purchased a subscription to a pew at Christ Church in Philadelphia because
that's what you did in proper society: not out of any christian piety.

Sadly, the present day fundies have no clue as to the history of religion
in the USA. Their concept of 'christianity' as being a heart-rendering,
soulful, emotional, 'come to Jesus' life was unknown to those men of the
post-enlightenment (a rational,intellectual development which was a
counter movement to the Reformation).
The present day evangelical movement was part of the Great Awakening,
a revival of primitive religious expression, itinerant preachers circuit riding,
tent revivals, altar calls- the whole menu familiar to fundamentalists today,
and the basis for today's Evangelicals.
None of that existed at the time of the founders.

And don't ask me about Lincoln, his opinion of religion would shock
today's Republican party.

[greenbird]

13. Oh darn.

I wanted to ask you about Lincoln. This stuff is fascinating.

[TrogL]

6. Here's the important part

One man, basically, who knows absolutely nothing about anything except religion, is re-writing the curriculum. Because Texas has state-wide control over the textbooks and is the 2nd largest bloc of students (after California, which is broke and hence has no influence), they have the largest control over textbook publishers, who rewrite their textbooks to suit. Those texts are then used in smaller school districts across the country.

This one religious crazyman, therefore, is turning the United States education system into a religious school.

[Uncle Joe]

7. If the Constitution weren't a living document and were only an "enduring" one, then

women wouldn't have the right to vote, slavery would still exist, Prohibition would never have come in to existence and then be discontinued, no popular election of Senators by the American People, no limit of Presidential Terms, no equal rights, etc. etc. The document would have remained rigid and rigidity makes for easier fracturing.

This is a long read but I believe it's an important one.

<snip>

"To give an illustration simultaneously of the power of ideology and Texas’ influence, Barber told me that when he led the social-studies division at Prentice Hall, one conservative member of the board told him that the 12th-grade book, “Magruder’s American Government,” would not be approved because it repeatedly referred to the U.S. Constitution as a “living” document. “That book is probably the most famous textbook in American history,” Barber says. “It’s been around since World War I, is updated every year and it had invented the term ‘living Constitution,’ which has been there since the 1950s. But the social conservatives didn’t like its sense of flexibility. They insisted at the last minute that the wording change to ‘enduring.’ ” Prentice Hall agreed to the change, and ever since the book — which Barber estimates controlled 60 or 65 percent of the market nationally — calls it the “enduring Constitution.”

<snip>

Thanks for the thread, undeterred.

[snake in the grass]

8. Scary to think...

...how much influence this group of hominids has on education across the country.

[mgc1961]

9. The founders

Putting aside for the time being the tens of thousands of uncelebrated citizens who shared the difficult task of transplanting European culture to this continent, the various people who already lived here, and the labor of slaves who helped build this nation, let's take a quick look at the religious diversity of those celebrated founders who did one or more of the following (204 unique individuals):

- signed the Declaration of Independence
- signed the Articles of Confederation
- attended the Constitutional Convention of 1787
- signed the Constitution of the United States of
America
- served as Senators in the First Federal
Congress (1789-1791)
- served as U.S. Representatives in the First
Federal Congress

More diversity among the founders:

- some of them served as president of the United States
- eight were foreign born 3.9 %
- three were lifetime bachelors 1.5 %
- Four of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were current or former full-time preachers, and many more were the sons of clergymen. Other professions held by signers include lawyers, merchants, doctors, and educators

Were the founders Christian? Their affiliation suggests they were but they represented a variety of denominations including some who were multi-denominational and still others who's affiliation remain a mystery other than to simply say they were Protestant.

Religious Affiliation expressed as a percentage:

Episcopalian/Anglican 54.7
Presbyterian 18.6
Congregationalist 16.8
Quaker 4.3
Dutch/German Reformed 3.7
Lutheran 3.1
Catholic 1.9
Huguenot 1.9
Unitarian 1.9
Methodist 1.2
Calvinist .6

More interesting tidbits are here http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html

Least I leave interested readers with the impression the founders were of one Christian mind or even denominational orthodoxy here are some excerpts from William A. DeGregorio's The Complete Book of US Presidents in regard to the individual beliefs of the first six Presidents. (Though here included, John Quincy Adams is not considered a founder.)

George Washington: "Episcopalian. However, religion played only a minor role in his life. He fashioned a moral code based on his own sense of right and wrong and adhered to it rigidly."

John Adams: "Unitarian branch of Congregationalism. Adams believed that although Christ was a great and good man whose example of piety, love, and universal brotherhood was the ideal that all people and nations should emulate, he was, after all, still a human being, not the Son of God, not the Word made flesh. He abhorred rigid Calvinism... found Deism equally unacceptable. Adams had little use for the trappings of organized religion."

Thomas Jefferson: "Deism. Jefferson grew up an Anglican but from early adulthood professed faith in a Creator uninvolved in the affairs of this world. He relied on reason, not revelation, to fashion a moral code that adhered to Christian precepts, but he had little use for the church itself. To Jefferson the issue was not whether God does or does not exist, but rather that all views on the subject ought to be tolerated. "It does me no injury," he asserted, "for my neighbor to say that there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

James Madison: "Episcopalian. Madison professed the basic tenets of his faith but was not zealous. He believed in a divine creator but doubted men's ability to know him."

James Monroe: "Episcopalian. His writings do not reveal the extent of his faith."

John Quincy Adams: "Unitarian branch of congregationalism. He attended church regularly and often worshipped twice on Sunday. While president he frequently was seen at morning services in the Unitarian church and in the afternoon at the Presbyterian church. Adams believed that Christ was superhuman but remained unconvinced of his divinity. Adams also was skeptical about the virginity of Mary. And he was unable to accept as undisputed fact the various miracles referred to in the Bible."

[undeterred]

10. The truth is not too complicated to teach children.

Yes, religion was important to many of the founders. But not as the fundamentalism or biblical literalism that those who are trying to take over the schools curriculum would have us believe. The textbooks should reflect an age-appropriate version of the best historical scholarship available. Otherwise we are just dumbing down our own country.

[classysassy]

11. Hypocrites

if they were Christians why did they murder the people that inhabited the land that is now called america,this country was founded by a bunch of thieves and murderers.They founded nothing they stole everything,the proud and profane citizens of this republic,still delude themselves when they say we are proud americans,what is there to be proud of?,do you take pride in murder,the theft of another peoples land,the little land that was left for the original people is being administered by thieves who have continued the practices of the former crooks.All americans should hang their heads in shame because we have allowed the corrupt government to do so much harm to people that trusted the pilgrims.When we meet our Maker,we can't claim we didn't know,He will say to all of us that has allowed these crimes to continue,I don't know you.Citizens lets make amends for the past sins of our fathers,a start would be,stop aiding foreign countries when we have poverty in this country,the worst off are the original people.We give billions to rich crooks and zilch to the needy.The crooks have bought our congress,supreme court,the whitehouse,they own the airways,where they employ the likes of Limbaugh,Beck and Palen to spew lies all over the air,disinformation has become an art form.There are some that say the american empire is about to colapse,there are others that say america will stand forever,thats whats the Romans said,recently thats what England said,who's next?

[tomm2thumbs]

12. hopefully the internet will expose them to reality

the more you try to squash the 'truth' into their heads, the more they push it out, like pushing a ball under the surface of the pool. It just wants to rush up and explode. Especially when the truth isn't so reasonable. The world is changing around these zealots, and they haven't figured it out yet.