Pastor Terry Jones has blood on his hands after Afghan attack in response to Koran burning

[1776Forever]

Pastor Terry Jones has blood on his hands after Afghan attack in response to Koran burning
Editorials
Saturday, April 2nd 2011, 4:00 AM

The Koran-burning fixation of Florida pastor Terry Jones is so deranged and irresponsible that he stands as a one-man excuse for contemplating the downsides of the First Amendment.

Jones has turned freedom of speech into a provocation for murder. He has done so knowingly and with reckless disregard for human life. He shares responsibility for the deaths yesterday of at least 12 at a United Nations compound in Afghanistan.

Yes, guilt lies first with the members of the mob that attacked the facility as a symbol of the non-Islamic West. They were fanatics and acted with unspeakable savagery.

But, clearly, Jones knew bloodshed was likely somewhere in the Muslim world after he burned a Koran on March 20 at his Gainesville church.

(more at link)

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2011/04/02/2011-04-02_pastor_terry_jones_has_blood_on_his_hands_after_afghan_attack_in_response_to_kor.html#ixzz1IQlH2N9N

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This editorial states my feelings: I know there are those on DU that feel that this is "free speech" issue but there has to be some responsibility to our actions or there will be no civility in the world.

[wtmusic]

1. Unfortunately that responsibility can't be to the law

or the precedent would be disastrous.

[sabrina 1]

2. What precedent? There is plenty of speech that is not protected.

Jones has now admitted that he intended to provoke people. There can be no more claims that he could not have known what might happen. Not only has he admitted that he is proud of the response he got, he has announced that he intends to provoke even more violence by 'putting Mohammad on trial'.

I would love to ask Jefferson and Madison what they think of this interpretation of the 1st Amendment. I seriously doubt they intended it to protect an admitted provoker of violence that would get innocent people killed.

I think it's time to stop defending this criminal.

[LAGC]

3. Terry Jones doesn't deserve all the blame.

Sure, he's a Christo-fascist, but the "concerned citizens" of the Middle East who are up in arms over this are taking their religion WAY too seriously.

It's just a copy of a fucking book. More can be printed and distributed, and indeed I believe there are a few American groups who have offered to do so in response to this action.

But these thin-skinned religious fundamentalists need to get a grip. It's just as bad as when they targeted that Danish cartoonist for making fun of their prophet.

Gimme a break.

[sabrina 1]

5. He shares the blame and has now publicly admitted that he

wanted to provoke people. He has no remorse whatsoever. And worse, now that he knows what can happen, he is planning on doing it again. You need to stop trying to defend this dangerous man. He is planning to get people killed. He was warned by the Pentagon that his behavior is likely to get U.S. troops killed. He is doing what he is doing with full knowledge of the potential danger to other innocent people. That makes him a criminal.

What YOU think of someone else's Holy Book is completely irrelevant. We are in Afghanistan killing their people on a daily basis. Last week 9 little boys were slaughtered by our murderous drones. That was the latest outrageous murder of innocent civilians in that country. We have tortured and humiliated their loved ones, and no matter how they ask, no matter how many peaceful demonstrations they have had demanding that we stop killing their women and children, we ignore them.

I am amazed that there has not been more violence against us, but one thing is for sure, we do not need this ugly, evil coward adding fuel to the fire. We started too wars after 9/11. Talk about thin skinned, killing by now over one million, mostly innocent human beings.

The 'mob' that did the actual killing, played right into the hands of Jones. If he had hired them himself, he couldn't have wished for more. His success is evident in your comment. He wanted to make Muslims look bad. He incited some very sick morons to commit murder and hoped to make it look like all Muslims are insane killers. He is a killer, as surely as they are now. He has all but admitted it.

[noel711]

7. A copy of a fucking book?

May I gently point out to you that in the Muslim culture,
Allah is present in the words that are written on a page.
It's not just a book, but the writing, literally, is
the presence of Allah, and to desecrate any writing/calligraphy/reference
to Allah, is a sacrilege, and brings great threat.

Not that I agree with that point of view, but the eastern culture is
not our western, materialistic, consumable culture.
The point isn't they can get a new book...
radical muslims feel the weight of the responsibility of their faith.

We can't tell them to 'get a grip' any more than we can tell
the Westbrook Baptist Church to 'grow up.'
Their fanaticism won't allow them to even consider changing what
they consider their fervent beliefs.
They won't listen to our side, as we are 'the infidel.'

I don't have an easy answer, but in the case of Terry Jones,
he is just as guilty as the radical muslim groups:
arrogantly thinking his actions will change anything.
Ignorance against ignorance just makes more violence.

No, to the radical fringe, the Koran (or to parallel Christian
groups, the bible) is not just a book.
We need to step back from our views, and see theirs,
respect them, and see other ways to work together.

[LAGC]

8. Sorry, but I'm not going to give blanket respect to any religion.

A person's religion is nothing more than their OPINION on how they hope things are to be, and an ignorant opinion at that.

People have every right to challenge other people's opinions. In a civil society, we can debate each other's opinions without resorting to violence.

Obviously, some parts of the world are less civilized than others.

To use your analogy, when Westboro Baptist Church rails "God hates fags" and "God hates America" people rightly and openly criticize them and offend their religious beliefs. When they exercise their right to free speech by protest, counter-protesters exercise their right to free speech to drown them out.

What you seem to be suggesting is that we should just turn a blind eye to the hatred and violence of one side, just because their OPINION happens to have a religious stamp of approval. I call bullshit. There's nothing about religion that automatically makes it so special that it should be immune to criticism and ridicule.

Cultural relativism shouldn't be used as an excuse to give hateful and violent religious ideas a free pass.

[Kurmudgeon]

17. Speaking of which, just who is "Dove World Outreach Center"

Not exactly a mainstream sect that I can see. I wonder how much they have in common with Westboro Baptist which isn't exactly very Baptist either.
No one credible has given "Pastor" Terry Jones any support that I know of.
Cultural relativism shouldn't be used as an excuse to heap hate upon every member of a perceived group, where the large majority had nothing to do with and never supported the rantings of member of an odd sect of religion with a similar name.
Of course, if your bias makes you hate ALL, well, that's your prerogative, I guess.

[LAGC]

30. No, I agree with you.

I think Terry Jones is being just as silly and foolish as the fundamentalist Muslims who are over-reacting.

I just think both extremist sides are to blame -- I just wish the moderate Christians and Muslims would speak out more forcefully against their fundamentalist brothers and sisters.

[Kurmudgeon]

31. People do speak out, but it doesn't get a lot of press.

Here's where some Muslims and Christians in Michigan banded together to speak out against Jones.

http://abclocal.go.com/wjrt/story?section=news/local&id=8050881

[LAGC]

32. That's good.

What about people speaking out about the mob violence in the Middle East though? Against those violently protesting Terry Jones' actions?

After all, it takes two (sides) to tango.

[Kurmudgeon]

35. Sorry, I don't control the national media.

The large majority of people, regardless of faith or lack of the same, probably don't know or care.
I wouldn't use that as proof of any conspiracy or bias though.

[bertman]

28. Hear!! hear!! Excellent post, LAGC. nt

[FedUp_Queer]

24. Great.

Any moron gets that it's not just a book. However, the reaction seems awfully disproportionate. I remember here in New York a museum putting on display the chocolate Jesus around Easter time. Last I checked, no violence. I remember the Piss Christ. Protests, probably (though I don't remember). Burning of buildings? Riots? Calls for Mr. Serrano's death? That I don't recall. I remember the Dutch artist with the pictures he drew of Mohammed. Distasteful? Yes. Insensitive? Yes. Stupid? Yes. However, calling for his death? Come on. All throughout the Arab world the intolerance that Muslims show for any non-Muslims is astounding. In many countries, it's ok to convert from Islam to anything else. The other way around? Punished as a crime. I'm sorry but there seems to be something in the Middle Eastern and Asian Muslim community that responds with violence with something that happens in another country. The notion of not punishing distasteful, insulting and provocative speech seems such an alien concept to them. Finally, as offensive as I, as a Christian find Westboro, or the fact that many Muslim countries do not allow Churches or their people may insult Jesus in the same or worse ways as this tool did, I don't see the widespread calls for their death, riots, burning public buildings, etc.

Finally, as far as prohibiting "provocative" speech, I'm sorry, but the problem, in this case, is not the nutbag burning the Koran. It's the crazies who can't just ignore it and chalk it up to a "crazy burning the Koran."

[northernlights]

10. nobody but NOBODY has said Jones deserves all the blame

For cripes sake, nobody has absolved the murderers for the blame.

But that does not absolve Jones for his SHARE of the blame.

I am so effing sick and tired of people putting words into other people's posts and deliberately and maliciously trying to "win" by changing and distorting what others have said.

Give the rest of us a break yourself, and get fucking real.

JONES DESERVES HIS SHARE OF THE BLAME. HIS FUCKING SHARE. NOT ALL. BUT HIS SHARE. :eyes:

[wtmusic]

21. How would you legally define an "intention to provoke"?

I think you see the problem here.

[sabrina 1]

25. Well, he has now publicy admitted that that was his intention.

And he was warned by both the State Dept. and the Pentagon that harm could come to U.S. soldiers and others, if he went ahead and burned the Koran.

I am not a lawyer, but if someone is warned that their actions may cause harm to others, especially in a situation where this country is at war in two Muslim countries, and secretly in Pakistan and even Yemen, then they cannot claim they did not know that their behavior could provoke violence. He admits he wanted 'to stir the pot'. So, he got what he wanted. And he's threatening to do it again, to further provoke more violence, which he now knows his actions will do

How often is someone warned by the U.S. government that their actions could cause harm to U.S. troops and then ignores those warnings? I don't know, but I would expect a knock on my door if I had done what he has done.

People here can deny he is to blame, but tell that to the victims of the violence. Protesters who did not participate in the murders, said that the ten years of brutal occupation and the huge number of civilian deaths have caused increased anger at the West. It is a volatile situation, as someone else said, Afghanistan after ten years of occupation was like a smouldering fire and all it needed was a spark to explode it. And Jones provided the spark. Who needs enemies when we have friends like him?

The military and the Afghan authorities now have to deal with the results of his actions. More have died today.

Legal experts will have to figure out his culpability in this situation. Lives were involved and he knew it.

[wtmusic]

26. A scenario

You have a fundamentalist neighbor who tells you if you burn a Bible he'll kill you. You burn it anyway, just to tweak him. He kills you.

Who's culpable for your death?

[sabrina 1]

27. He is of course. But if I were foolish enough to do that,

I would have played a role in my own death. A better example, since Jones was risking other people's lives, would be if he threatened to kill someone close to me, husband, boyfriend, sister eg.

If I knew there was a good possibility that by satisfying my own selfish need to tweak him, he would kill someone else, then I would be partly responsible for that person's death. Legally I probably wouldn't be arrested. Unless I was a well-known taker of risks with other people's lives and made it known that I wanted it to happen, and simply used the situation to make it happen. And someone else could probably sue me for reckless endangerment of another person.

[hack89]

23. So the mob had no other choice but to murder innocent people?

they don't have to kill people you know - they can do the rational thing and ignore him.

[sabrina 1]

33. It was the President's and the Sec. of Def.'s and Gen. Petraeas'

opinion that the 'mob' would make the choice they made IF Jones were to go ahead with his stunt. They warned Jones that the 'mob' would use his stunt as an excuse to kill innocent people. He heard those warnings. He used them to get what he wanted. He has admitted his intentions to 'provoke them' knowing the choice they would make.

We aren't talking about the local PTA. We are talking about several war zones. To expect that the 'mob' with whom we are at war, if indeed they were Taliban fighters, to make a rational choice is as insane a notion as to have expected Hitler to be swayed by appeals to his 'better nature' or to expect Jones to have heeded the POTUS's serious warning. He did what he did knowing what the outcome was likely to be. He is not sorry about that, he has told us.

Are people really this clueless?

[plumbob]

12. Well, then let me exercise a bit of that unlimited free speech. Jones

should be chopped up into tiny bits, the bits burned, and the ashes placed inside a concrete container designed to hold waste for the next million years.

Hey, just expressin' myself - not MY fault if some violent person takes it as any more than that.

Right?

[BobbyBoring]

15. Could we make that nucular waste?

I agree 100%

[plumbob]

19. Sure we could!

Always room for improvement!


AND it's GREEN!

So a whole lotta people tell me.

Ignore the current nukular disaster in progress, please.

[snagglepuss]

4. Wouldn't it be racist to assume that Muslims are savage fanatics so

better not rile them?

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[CJCRANE]

9. But Jones is actually *helping* the muslim fanatics and al-Qaeda.

This type of behavior is exactly what they need to get new recruits.

His handlers know exaclty what they're doing.

[1776Forever]

11. I agree with your comment - I also posted this on another one of your comments but wanted more to

see this information. Here is an article that speaks about why Jones was thrown out of Germany and how he is "cashing in" on his manical hate filled actions:

http://www.newser.com/story/100032/koran-torching-pastor-was-run-out-of-germany.html

Newser – Rev. Terry Jones was ranting against Islam long before his plan to burn Korans on the anniversary of 9/11 made him internationally infamous. According to the church blog, Jones has been preaching Islamophobia since before 9/11, when he ran a sister church in a poor area of Cologne, Germany. The church says he left because the community had begun to fill with Muslim Turkish immigrants hostile to his message, the Daily Beast reports.

But Jones’ estranged daughter says he was actually kicked out of Cologne for using church funds to buy personal luxuries and pay for his eBay business. Now, Jones is running that business out of the Gainesville church, and living in the church’s 1,500-square-foot luxury parson’s quarters. But he won’t be for long. In what's surely not an attempt to cash in on the publicity, the church is reportedly selling its campus, recently slashing the asking price to $1.1 million. Did we mention Jones has a new book, entitled Islam is of the Devil?

[baldguy]

13. "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it."

Agent Kay wasn't talking about Muslims, he was talking about New Yorkers.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

14. Muslim is not a race...

[ProgressiveProfessor]

16. No he does not

He has killed no one, suggested no one be killed, never even discussed anyone be killed. To hold him responsible for the act of zealots in another country is not morally or legally supportable.

All that said, he is a fundie asshat.

[BobbyBoring]

18. The whole thing is so rediculous

Jones put Islam on trial and Islam was found guilty? Guilty of what? Guilty of rising from the same crock of shit as the other major religions?

[Moostache]

20. Preach on brother!!!

I am in the choir....but I offer a full-throated "AMEN!!!" anyway!

[bertman]

29. We can only hope that Gawd will strike down Pastor Jones and Allah will

do the same for the muslim murderers who act so shamefully and horrifically in the name of their deity.

[jeremyfive]

34. Jones was stupid, but the Muslims were murderous. There's a difference.

We should stop catering to Muslim extremists. People have a right to be stupid, though this Florida pastor was certainly highly irresponsible. But he was following what he believed and killed no one.

Muslim extremists killed many. Once again.

[alarimer]

36. Wrong.

He may have done a stupid thing but it is the fault of the murderers for the murders. No one else. You might lay some blame of Karzai for inflaming it as well. We should not shift blame from the real barbarians who did this. Some "peaceful" religion.

[NothingRight]

37. Jones, and the reaction, show why politics and government should never mix

The First Amendment is clearly a double edged sword, especially in an issue like this. Believing in the Amendment means defending the right for morons to stay moronic things, even if you believe adamantly against it (like most everything on Fox News).

But, this is about more than one freak pulling some religious stunt to make himself feel better.

The reaction we saw is because the rest of the world views us as a Christian nation. And they view us that way because our leaders are required to portray us that way. The fact that we have members of Congress who proclaim themselves Muslim is a miracle, since the majority of conservatives (the ones who speak about it anyway) believe, like Rep. King, that Muslims are out to destroy us.

The simple fact is that the same First Amendment that gave the dumbass in Florida the right and the protection by law to commit his childish act also declares that
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,..."

Yet the world at large views us as a Christian nation.

http://wp.me/p1mIkk-cX