Conservative towns lead to teen suicide.

[Kurmudgeon]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42635619/ns/health-mental_health/

"Teens — gay or straight — more likely to attempt suicide in conservative towns"

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[xchrom]

3. 'group narcissism'? what group would that be? nt

[slackmaster]

4. Self-indulgent liberals

Obviously.

[xchrom]

6. no it wasn't obvious -- but whatever -- would you care to expound on

self indulgent liberals?

that just sounds like a broad brush smear.

[slackmaster]

8. I think my post was sufficiently clear

Teen suicide is a human tragedy for families and individuals. It has nothing to do with the political orientation of a community. Trying to make political hay out of a cockamamie "study" that was done with an obvious agenda sucks.

[Drale]

11. sucide is a tragedy but

We have already seen reports that the liberal mind and the conservative mind work differently. This post could show that conservatives are more prone to depression.

[xchrom]

12. and that's a horseshit statement.

More suicides under Conservative rule

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2263690.stm

The suicide rate increases under Conservative governments, research suggests.

Australian scientists found the suicide rate in the country increased significantly when a Conservative government was in power.

And an analysis of figures in the UK seems to suggest a similar trend.

The Australian team analysed suicide statistics for New South Wales between 1901, when the federal government was established, and 1998.


the topic at hand isn't about the tragedy for any particular family -- it's that there are more suicides with this particular item in play.
your shifting the ground to suit you -- and it has a homophobic vibe to it frankly.

[slackmaster]

14. You seem a bit intolerant of my non-conformity.

;-)

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

81. Oooo, aren't you the rebel?

:eyes:

[alarimer]

78. I would guess it is related to their policies.

Reduced availability of mental health care, less support for the impoverished, more draconian punishments for various crimes, etc. And of course their socially conservative agenda: anti-gay, etc.

[SkyDaddy7]

83. YES...I totally agree! How someone can't see...

that such an environment you described & the studies have shown could "possibly" lead to more teen suicide is odd. If you are gay and/or subjected to endless bullying in a community where it is taught people like yourself are an abomination & there is no where to get help I think it would be obvious this could lead to more incidents of attempted suicides, right?

[Recursion]

23. Correlation is an odd meaning of "nothing to do with" (nt)

[patrice]

71. Right. The relationship may or may not be causal, even in a strong corelation. The point being

that just because the rate of change in one more or less consistently corelates with some rate of change in the other, that does not mean that the relationships is necessarily necessary. Could be other un-recognized factors betwixt and between, without which there'd be no corelation.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

43. bullshit. Community mores impact the residents. We are a product of society

as well as of our isolated individual characteristics.

Political orientation is very much a reflection of social values, and a conservative tone carries onerous implications: Intolerance. Authoritarianism. Punishment. Expectations of compliance and conformity. Violence against those who stand out. Denial of fellowship and other social supports to those outside of the group. Tribalism.

All of these ugly, inhumane attitudes may be characterized as emblematic of conservative individuals and communities.

The political is personal.

Your casual dismissal of this rising phenomenon (that parallels the rise of conservative political influence in communities) as merely isolated incidents is a serious misapprehension.

[Recursion]

51. "rising phenomenon"?

I missed the statement that these suicide rates represent an increase over rates in the past. Where did you get that idea?

[BlancheSplanchnik]

57. am I mistaken? It seems that teen suicides are increasing.

If I've misjudged, then I need to be corrected.

[Recursion]

59. Here's a graph up to 2005

(Just the first thing Google brought me; CDC will have more recent numbers.) Most violent death rates are flat over the past decade and way down from 20 years ago. The fluctuations from 2000-2005 seem mostly like noise; it's pretty clear they're all flat.

(Note: the drop-off is much more precipitous than it looks here, because they stretched out 1995-2005 compared to 1970-1995.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

65. interesting; I notice suicide #'s are conflated with homicide and firearm deaths

which I think may give a very different picture of violent death in general as opposed to one variable---teen suicide.


Thank you for doing that google search for me, much appreciated!


....I really have to get off the computer NOW. Now, I say... I WILL do this.....

I WILL!

[I owe]

82. It's called Demographics

And it shouldn't be ignored!

[patrice]

17. Isn't it self-indulgent to assume that one's own agenda is more salutary to the problem

at hand than that of indeterminent others?

Which one of you is doing that? Which one excluded all potential positive effects of the other's post first?

IOW, "Who died and made you god?"

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

80. Holy crapola.

I should frequent the Editorials forum more often.

Wow.

Just wow.

[otohara]

13. Yeah, Because You Say So

never mind the study.

How would you like to be a gay teen in the ultra-conservative-religious towns across America? Me, I'd rather be in a liberal urban area - Hey maybe that's why so many GLBT communities choose to live in liberal cities.

There is a difference between the liberal/conservative brain, or is that study wrong too?

[reggie the dog]

21. there was the sceen in harvey milk

when harvey received a call from a teen in a rural conservative area whose parents wanted to send him to a religious camp to have his "gay problem" solved. the kid in the wheelchair, the kid was about to kill himself and harvey told the kid "leave, take a bus a train, go to any big city you can get to. later in the movie he ran into the kid in LA it is estimated that for every successful suicide of an under there are between 100 and 200 attempts made. this is a huge problem, imagine if all those attempts were successes. i wouldnt be here.

[Recursion]

25. You mean Harvey Milk, who fled New York City

because it was intolerant?

[reggie the dog]

29. yep, that one

he knew that big cities were already better than rural areas. when we went to the bay area and saw that gay people had a small free zone they could be themselves in he dreamed of spreading it to the entire coutnry. most big cities are now places that people can be openly gay in. there are still occasionally homophobic incidents but urban society of today is far more open minded than it was years ago.

[patrice]

18. Speaking of narcissism . . .

:eyes:

[patrice]

19. That's un-reccing for how people MIGHT react to the post. You also a proponent of Preventative War?

[patrice]

20. Again with the zero-sums: "nothing" Really??? Nothing? Speaking of conformity,

either-or propositions are conformity that extend to how one thinks.

[Recursion]

30. How about "poor communities more likely to be conservative"? (nt)

[patrice]

38. k, so, it's possible that saying the cause is conservativeness (like racism often does) distracts

from the root cause, economic in-justice.

I don't have a problem with "more likely"s.

It does raise the question as to which is determinative, thought, the poverty or the conservativeness, stuff we don't have enough information about to decide.

Poverty could provide the base potential and then other problems, such as sexual identity, a trait of in-ordinate concern to conservatives, could be the tipping factor, or . . . vice versa.

[Recursion]

39. Tribalism happens for a reason

It's not that these are evil people looking for an excuse to hate others. Less security = more tribe affiliation. Anthro 101. The infamous soul-less suburbs are arguably more politically conservative than small towns, but that's not where people are leaving those different from them to die from exposure tied to a fencepost.

[reggie the dog]

55. plus the soul less suburbs, like elk grove village IL where i grew up

are so close to the city that salvation is easy, you drive 20 minutes and are in "home territory".

[Recursion]

61. It's the part of the country I've had little experience with

I've lived in very small towns and very large cities and none of the sprawl in between, so I basically only know them by reputation and the occasional dinner party.

[RaleighNCDUer]

77. What's a dinner party? nt

[Recursion]

79. A party where you eat dinner with people

WTF?

[patrice]

70. I like very much a return to the older concrete bases, hardwired into us by our biological heritage,

as a likely starting point for discussing more recent and arbitrary traits represented by labels such as "conservative" and "rich".

:hi:

[reggie the dog]

22. you can tell us if you tried suicide when you were younger

lots of us did, its nothing to be ashamed about

[RaleighNCDUer]

26. You think that teens thwarted in wanting to break the bonds of restrictive,

authoritarian social structures are not more likely to commit suicide?

Despite the evidence just given in the cited article?

WTF?

[Recursion]

33. No evidence was presented that "conservative" communities as defined in the study...

...have more restrictive, authoritarian social structures than non-conservative communities. I spent my years up until 4th grade in a very liberal, very conformist "community" and it was awful. To say nothing of the food (how much millet can a kid eat?)

[xchrom]

2. recommend

[OHdem10]

5. Makes sense. The culture does not allow for too much non-conformity.

Money is high value, so status, you know how it is.

[slackmaster]

9. Liberals always talk about the importance being individuals, just like everyone else.

:crazy:

[Recursion]

24. That's hardly limited to conservatism

The left and the right give lip-service to individualism while having a tendency to stifle it.

[Stuckinthebush]

7. Rec +1

The solution to teen suicide resides in an understanding of the negative forces on a teen. Authoritarian attitudes of adults combined with intolerance of difference can make a teen think that the only way out is death.

[TxVietVet]

10. The conservanazi culture demands conformity. Prejudices are required.

It doesn't fit well with the world today.

Reccomend.

[slackmaster]

15. Liberal cultures are just as guilty as conservative ones of demanding conformity

Prejudices are not unique to one political philosophy. Liberals and conservatives have different prejudices.

[reggie the dog]

27. what prejudices do us liberals have?

[Recursion]

28. Seriously?

Read a thread here about gun owners, NASCAR, "evangelicals" (which nobody here seems to know the actual meaning of) or athletics some time.

Perhaps "thoughtless sanctimony" might be a better word than "prejudice", but it's equally unattractive.

[reggie the dog]

32. i am a liberal

i own a gun in the usa (not here in france, its in dad's gun safe back home) i also have nothing against nascar. evangelicals bother me only if they try to influence govt to make law based on their religion and i have always played sports. but now that you mention it there are some liberals who make fun of nascar, guns, and jocks. as much as jocks fucked with me at school i still have nothing against sports, only the loud mouthed assholes fucked with my anyways. In a liberal town like san fransisco are gun owners made to feel stupid? or nascar fans? i tend to see liberal towns as very live and let live places.

[Recursion]

35. Any big city brings with it a kind of jaded politeness/privacy

That's true for San Francisco and San Diego (I've lived in both). It's too crowded to be in everybody else's business; we'd all go crazy.

I've also lived as a child in the mid 70s in what in retrospect could only be called a commune (though I don't recall that word being used at the time) and it was just as dysfunctional, controlling, conformist, and pressuring as my cousins' more stereotypical small town in Texas.

[RaleighNCDUer]

42. Know what? If that place was controlling, conformist

and pressuring - it was NOT liberal. Those traits do not fit the definition.

LIBERAL: 1) suitable for a freeman; not restricted - as in LIBERAL ARTS, or LIBERAL EDUCATION 2) giving freely, generous 3) large or plentiful - a LIBERAL reward 4) not restricted to the literal meaning; not strict - a LIBERAL interpretation 5) tolerant of views differing from one's own; broad-minded spec. not orthodox etc. etc.
SYN: LIBERAL implies tolerance of others' views as well as openmindedness to ideas that challenge tradition...

Where is the LIBERAL in your description?

ON EDIT: you'll note, I did not take issue with it being dysfuctional, because if it claimed to be liberal while being oppressive and intolerant, that pretty much define dysfunctional.

[Recursion]

44. Ah, no TRUE Scotsman

:eyes:

Yeah, sure. If you define "liberal" to mean "things you admire", of course liberals are admirable.

[RaleighNCDUer]

48. The definition is not mine - it's Webster's.

Liberal is the opposition point to authoritarian.

Conservative is, at its heart, authoritarian.

The meme of 'authoritarian liberals' is as meaningless as 'fundamentalist atheists'.

[Recursion]

50. "Conservative is, at its heart, authoritarian"

Conservative is, at its heart, authoritarian.

*facepalm*



Edmund Burke would be quite surprised at that. The implied contrapositive would probably surprise people who lived under Mao.

(And, yes, I'm sure you've convinced yourself that Mao wasn't "actually" on the Left.)

You're equivocating so much here that I see no purpose to continuing.

[RaleighNCDUer]

68. Ah, yes, Edmund Burke -

what can you say about someone who is credited with creating both modern liberalism AND modern conservatism?

Other than that he was his own DLC?

[RaleighNCDUer]

37. Hey, YOU, I am DEEPLY prejudiced against people who say

"us liberals" instead of "we liberals"!

You wouldn't say "What prejudices do us have?" would you?

:evilgrin:

[reggie the dog]

54. well you know i meant U.S. liberals, as opposed to liberals here in

france where liberal means right wing, yeah that's the ticket.... :crazy:

[RaleighNCDUer]

31. Which is why there are so many gangs of gays and liberals running

around burning churches and beating up Christians and tying them to fences to die of exposure.

:eyes:

[TxVietVet]

34. All one has to do is listen to ONE conservanazi.

Then, you've heard what they all have to say.

They are EXTREMELY prejudiced.

No matter what anyone says, the conservanazi republiklans are EXTREMELY prejudiced.

[Recursion]

36. Wow. How does one identify a "conservanazi"?

Or a "republiklan"? I've never met anyone who identified themselves as such, and I'd like to know how to avoid them if they are as bad as you say they are.

[TxVietVet]

40. Do the test. You may be one.

http://rackjite.com/web/political_tests.htm

Looking for a definition of a conservanazi. Here's one for you.

http://rackjite.com/web/conservanazis.htm

[Recursion]

41. OK, so there are no "conservanazis" in the United States

Good to know!

[TxVietVet]

45. I love it when the conservanazis can't understand why people have to have labels.

When druggie limbaugh hangs a label to demonize someone or an idea, all the toadies, teabaggin' kkluckers included, just laugh and think it's so funny.
But, when the tables are turned, conservanazis can't stand it.

Conservanazis are :puke:

http://rackjite.com/web/conservanazis.htm

[Recursion]

47. Well, "conservanazi" is as idiotic as Limbaugh's "feminazi" slander

Fortunately you've both defined your terms, and in both cases by that definition you've proven they don't exist. (Limbaugh defined a "feminazi" as a woman who wants as many abortions as possible to be performed; people like that don't exist. You defined "conservanazi" as someone who answered 3 or 4 to every question in that stupid poll, and people like that fortunately don't exist either. So we're safe from both "threats".)

[TxVietVet]

52. Too bad. If you're a conservanazi, deal with it. Feminazi had nothing to do with abortions.

It had to do with power. conservanazis' power over women. conservanazis can't stand women with any perceived power. An independent woman is a mortal enemy of the conservanazis.

When druggie limbaugh was spewing his feminazi crap, it was because they (he and the conservanazis) have no control over the women they can't have. A woman who thinks and does as she wants.

[Recursion]

56. Well, no, he defined the term "feminazi" exactly like I said

And you've defined the term "conservanazi". And neither term describes anyone who actually exists.

[reggie the dog]

62. that site is bullshit

it implies that gun owners who vote republican want to shoot and kill people which is complete bullshit. i have family and friends who vote republican, some own guns, some hate guns and dont want them in their house but respect that other people can have them if they want. none of them have ever shot anyone outside of combat.

[Doctor_J]

84. I'm not sure where your computations come from

I have an older relative who is a flaming racist who, if answering honestly, would answer "3" to question 4 - "racism is..."

His answers to the questions would be 2, 3, 2, 3, 3, 3, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3. His total would be 33, comfortably into the Conservanazi category. And he lives in America.

[TxVietVet]

46. Yep. They are called teabaggin' republiklans.

[Recursion]

49. Nope. You posted the definition in that "quiz"

And there is nobody in the world who would answer 3 or 4 to every question in the quiz, which is what it would take. So you've demonstrated there are no "conservanazis". That still leaves open the question of "republiklans".

[TxVietVet]

53. Conservanazis = republiklans. Sieg heil, limbaugh.

[Recursion]

58. Ah, synonyms. Since you've demonstrated that "conservanazis" are not real...

...then "republiklans" aren't either. Good to know.

[TxVietVet]

60. Conservanazis = republiklans. Sieg heil, limbaugh.

[Recursion]

63. The hilarious thing is that your diatribe comes in a thread about how tolerant and open-minded...

...liberals are, compared to "conservanazis".

[Kurmudgeon]

72. I knew a Republiklan.

Hardcore Bush voting GOP fanatic, though I'm not sure if he even knows the difference between conservatives and liberals. He used to keep sending me pictures of Mr. Obama drawn with monkey features and constantly used the N-word. He got upset when I pointed out that saying the N-word to me was a pussy thing to do because he was quite safe telling it to me. And then I asked him how many black folks he had said it to, none of course.
He has since quit talking to me...

Liberals have their moments, but for the most part aren't anywhere near as vicious or pernicious and hostile as Neo-Con Republiklans.
I myself am a Centrist, and have done my fair share of upsetting either side. Sorry about that, it just seems unavoidable at times.

[reggie the dog]

64. what about the soup nazi?

[RaleighNCDUer]

66. No such thing? Look at the 'test' again. Anyone who answeres all

'2's and a single '3', is a conservanazi, as defined by the test. I've met any number of people who would score a 25 or worse.

From his own public statements, Limbaugh is a conservanazi - probably scoring at least a 30 (and that is being generous).

Maybe you need to actually listen to what the other side is saying.

[Recursion]

75. Right, and nobody would answer all 2's and a 3

They would (rightly) say "these options are sanctimonious bullshit" and not finish the test.

[RaleighNCDUer]

76. You must be joking, or you live in Bluetown, Blue Country, B;lue State.

Cuz around here there are plenty who would answer all 2s and several 3s, with maybe a couple 4s thrown in for good measure.

Just look at the people who buy The Turner Diaries - there's your 3s and 4s, and they are PROUD of it. If they were to take the test seriously, they'd automatically dismiss all the 1s, and while most the 4s are a bit over the top, they'd hesitate before flat out dismissing them.

Like most conservadems, you VASTLY underestimate the degree of insanity in the far right.

[whathehell]

16. I have no problem whatsoever believing this study.

Conservative towns suck...Even for adults who are not conservative.

I grew up and lived in big, liberal cities most of my life.

At the age of 40, I moved to a semi-rural conservative

town. I was used to wearing jeans, khakis and a lot of black.

I got a funny looks from the local matrons who seemed

to wear mainly pastels.

They made me feel like a weird, over-aged Goth.


I never felt comfortable, although that was not the only reason,

and I was VERY happy to leave this place and move back to a BIG BLUE STATE City!

[Doctor_J]

67. If only the adults in conservative towns

would follow suit... ;-)

[Recursion]

69. So joking about wanting political opponents to die is ok?

Interesting.

[patrice]

73. No. It's stupid, because it produces the opposite of one's putative intent, i.e. solutions. nt

[Doctor_J]

74. To suicide

My tolerance for "people" like Bachmann, Gingrinch, Beck, and their ilk elapsed long ago. Death of innocents, children, and good people is a tragedy, but if a few of the worst of the tumors that infest the country want to take their own lives, I will not mourn.