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Who do you believe: us, or Michael Moore?

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Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 08:25 AM
Original message
Who do you believe: us, or Michael Moore?
. . .

Brokaw seemed particularly peeved by "9/11." When asked about the film by a West Coast TV critic, he asked if the critic thought Moore's movie to be an accurate portrayal. The critic said yes. "Of what?" Brokaw shot back. "It's really easy to turn back the clock now and say, 'Oh, it was the fault , especially of the electronic media, that we went to war because they jumped on the bandwagon,' " Brokaw said. "If you do a fair review, we gave a very vigorous accounting of what was known and what was not known at the time. ... The American news networks and the newspapers, for the most part, did as well as they could under the circumstances."

Citizens, however, may be becoming increasingly wary. ABC's George Stephanopoulos, a former adviser to Bill Clinton, tells of meeting last week with undecided Republican and Democratic voters in Ohio, encountering a handful who had seen "Fahrenheit 9/11."

"What was most striking to me is that when I asked them, 'Why did you go to see it?' they said, 'Because we wanted to get the facts,' " Stephanopoulos said. "There wasn't time to get into a big argument with them ... but at least a few of them had the sense that if it's coming from the government if it's coming from established media, they must not be telling us something and we have to go to this alternative venue to get the facts. I think that's a challenge for all of us."

. . .

As for the notion that the film is packed with previously unreported information, ABC "World News Tonight" anchor Peter Jennings said he actually was "surprised by how much of the ground we'd already covered. But," Koppel said, "we didn't do those stories as political polemics. And I am concerned on both sides of the political spectrum that if what Americans feel they have to get is news with an attitude, what they're going to end up losing is some of the objectivity that traditionally people in our business have tried at least -- we don't always succeed, but we have tried -- to bring to these stories."

http://www.suntimes.com/output/rosenthal/cst-ftr-phil13.html
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colonel odis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 08:28 AM
Response to Original message
1. the "mainstream" media is becoming more and more
irrelevant each day.

getting downright snippy and defensive about it, too.
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lefty_mcduff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Agreed.
I think they know it too. Witness Wolf Blitzer's appearance on The Daily Show last night in a (failed) attempt to reconnect with viewers and re-establish whatever cred they used to have.
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Retrograde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #4
26. that was downright brutal
atleast Blitzer didn't get up and walk out - although it wouldn't have done any more harm to him than that interview!
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #1
14. I love how they're getting defensive
It shows that they were wrong, they knew at the time they were wrong, and that they never thought anybody would call them on it.
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mstrsplinter326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 08:29 AM
Response to Original message
2. Objectivity from Koppel and Brokaw??
That's rich considering who owns NBC and ABC.
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 08:32 AM
Response to Original message
3. beautiful
especially Brokaw, he really loses it. Who ever said anything about taking Moore as "Gospel" or seeing him as a "gold standard." And Moore himself is absolutely open about his slant, unlike tools like Brokaw and Jennings.


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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 08:33 AM
Response to Original message
5. Excuses, Excuses, Excuses - I Am So Damn Tired Of The Excuses
Edited on Tue Jul-13-04 08:34 AM by mhr
If these people were kids they would get a good ass-whippen for telling so many half-truths.
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lovedems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 08:33 AM
Response to Original message
6. I don't dislike Koppel. But I totally disagree with his statement
And I am concerned on both sides of the political spectrum that if what Americans feel they have to get is news with an attitude, what they're going to end up losing is some of the objectivity that traditionally people in our business have tried at least -

I think Koppel tries to maintain objectivity but as for the rest of them...forget it. I am sick of watching CNN and watching the anchormen/women put their 2 cents in. I should say 2 sense because when I watch people like Wolf, Judy and Paula, they all think they are smart when they are asking the most stupid questions!
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monchie Donating Member (297 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #6
24. I'm sorry, but the whole notion of journalistic objectivity is bogus.
Deciding which stories to cover; deciding which facts in those stories are most important and thus get placed in the lede; deciding where to place a particular story in a newspaper or newscast; deciding which sides of a story are important enough to cover, since there are an infinite number of sides to any story -- all these are, by their very nature, subjective decisions. I realized that almost immediately in Journalism 101.

What "objectivity" has historically been in practice is a bias toward the middle of the road...and the media themselves decide where that middle of the road is. And what the right wing has been doing the past 35 years or so is intimidating the media into moving the "middle of the road" further and further and further to the right, largely through two means: 1. media consolidation in fewer and fewer hands, and 2. screaming and yelling and bullying the media whenever they run stories that tend to be either negative toward the right wing or positive toward liberals -- i.e., "working the refs," as Eric Alterman calls it.
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amber dog democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 08:35 AM
Response to Original message
7. I am sorry but the lame excuse:
Snippage> " The American news networks and the newspapers, for the most part, did as well as they could under the circumstances."

is not good enough. They did not do a very good job period.
I have not been able to trust mainstream media to enable me to make informed decisions. Where is Edward L Murrow when we need him?
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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 08:53 AM
Response to Original message
8. I hate to throw a wet blanket...
on the flaming of the media, but I agree with Koppel.

Most of my information comes from the major media, not alternatives. If you watch the network news, read the major papers, you do actually get it all. Or most of it.

I can't think of anything I've heard or seen in alternative media that I haven't seen at least mentioned on the majors.

Alternative media, left and right, might add some background and followup, but puts its own spin on things, and causes other problems.

None of them are perfect, but it seems to me that complaints from both the left and the right are not so much about them getting it wrong, but not telling it the way we want it told.

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WyLoochka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #8
15. "at least mentioned on the majors. "
"mentioning" important facts in one paragraph blurbs buried in the back pages is not synonymous with actually reporting facts.
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toddzilla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #8
20. you mean like all the coverage of insider trading connected with 9-11?
yeah, right.
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Or like the ongoing coverage of the Anthrax Assassin Investigation
WHAT Anthrax Assassination Investigation? you ask.

Exactly.
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TiredTexan Donating Member (489 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #8
27. When I was growing up during the 60's and early 70's
there was a tremendous amount of self-censorship in the media, but it involved matters of a sexual nature and foreign policy intervention in other countries that the press simply wasn't sure about, although they may have suspected wrongdoing. Nonetheless, the coverage was strikingly better than it is now. I just finished reading David Brock's "The Republican Noise Machine" which compellingly documents that over $1 billion has been spent by various Republican foundations over the last 20 years to establish a lock on the media. In private, these foundations admit that they have succeeded. I agree.

The right's attack on the media was essentially twofold. First, the Republicans pushed hard for "balanced" coverage instead of truthful reporting, understanding that they could never be portrayed very well if truth was the only standard. In this Orwellian world, whether or not a particular side was lying in presenting its case was ignored as the media simply regurgitated the positions advocated by the parties. No attempt is made to assist the reader in sorting the wheat from the chaff or in fact checking of the information provided. In fact, to do so, if it finds a position particularly meritless or false, is unbalanced by definition. In other words, they wanted their position presented without any check of information so the reader would be left in the dark on what was real and what was an illusion.

Second, Republican pundits, whose salaries are supplemented by foundations, write books and flood the media with concentrated right wing talking points all promulgated by subsidized think tanks. This is, obviously, the antithesis of capitalism since the marketplace of their ideas are not created by demand, but rather by a steady supply subsidized from the right and pushed into the media (another example of supply side economics with a bitter twist, I suppose). These pundits are presented as journalists and are pitted in various media outlets against mainstream journalists who are presented as though they are the "liberal" voice. These "liberal" journalists usually hold no allegiance to the liberal viewpoint, are often apolitical, and attempt to present both sides of an issue. As a result, real liberal voices are rarely, if ever, heard in response to the relentless drumming of right wing talking points.

In my youth, the media functioned as a full trial on the merits of many issues, almost as though they were skillful lawyers presenting the competing evidence to their readers. If there was little or no evidence backing up a position, this would be noted in the story, although generally the news consumer was left to be the ultimate judge on the final issue. Nonetheless, journalists did not shy from reporting the facts as they existed, or in comparing the words spoken by politicians with the facts as they were known. Even more importantly, journalists routinely dug for evidence and had no problem angering the powerful. In fact, the media's allegiance to the truth was considered to be its most important and sacred duty to the democracy. Slowly as the media became more concentrated and the Republicans screamed about balance, journalists were replaced with pretty boys and girls, and truth gave way to fairness and balance. Media became a profit center, just another business, and so the original altruistic model I grew up with faded away. It's also cheaper to do balanced reporting as it requires no investigative reporting or fact checking, so these valuable services disappeared as well.

Today, the TV media, including cable news and the networks, do little or no true journalism, only reporting. The press, however, continues to do quite a lot, but this information is spread out all over the country in various newspapers and magazines. The TV media often ignore these important stories, and no mainstream media source that I am aware of puts the stories in a cohesive and readily available format. And that is why those of us online are so much better informed than those who consume only TV, radio and print news sources. Websites like DU or Buzzflash compress the really important news from sources all over into manageable doses and weed out the crap and sensationalistic stories, allowing us to see both the big picture and the important details quite clearly.

In short, I really disagree with you on this one.
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 08:53 AM
Response to Original message
9. What horsepucky!!
Did NBC News or other major US media outlet inform the American public prior to the war that the OSP was cooking intelligence? The Guardian Utd did in October 2002. Why couldn't US media have told us?

Did NBC news or other major US media outlets inform the American public prior to the war the that associations between Saddam and al Qaida were debunked? Those who get their news from the BBC knew this. Why should an American have to go across the Pond or surf the Net to find out that a major piece of the Bush Administration case against Saddam was doubtful?

Did NBC News or other major US media outlet inform the American public prior to the war that former UN chief weapons inspector Scott Ritter cast doubts about the viability of Saddam's biochemical arsenal and that General Hussein Kamel had told UN weapons inspectors in secret that Iraq's biological weapons were destroyed shorted after the 1991 war? Those of us who turned off our television sets or stopped reading Judy Miller's reports The New York Times long enough to get news from the Net knew this. Why didn't major US news outlets broadcast or post these facts?

Mr. Brokaw couldn't be more wrong. A fair review of major US media shows that they were complicit in the Bushies scheme to invade Iraq on false pretenses. The case they presented for the war was bogus and many of us who opposed the war knew this when we joined 10 million others worldwide in marching against it in February 2003. We were not just a bunch of knee jerk pacifists; many of us were informed citizens, no thanks to major US media. Brokaw and his colleagues in both electronic and print media have a great deal for which to answer.
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The Flaming Red Head Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 08:57 AM
Response to Original message
10. Moore
Edited on Tue Jul-13-04 09:00 AM by The Flaming Red Head
After spending years of reading alternative media reports like those at Common Dreams and others. I can’t imagine that anyone thought the case for war, or the hunt for WMDs was real, or that it’s taken all this time, and a Michael Moore movie to convince the public that the case was flawed, but you know if that what it takes, then more power to Moore at least someone is able to reach the public.

I haven't seen F911, yet.
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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. I Can, Just Pay A Visit To A Sleepy Little East Texas Town Called Tyler
About as backward a group of people that you might ever find.

I know some of them personally.
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The Flaming Red Head Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. You want backwards
Edited on Tue Jul-13-04 09:08 AM by The Flaming Red Head
Go to Baton Rouge and go when the legislature is session. You'll find backwards there. Lots of Repugs and lot's of Bush Democrats (they won't admit it, but they are)
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 09:20 AM
Response to Original message
13. Listen to the Bloated Bushevik Pundits, fume and smoulder with false
indignation.

NEWS FLASH: WE STOPPED BELIEVING YOU BECAUSE YOU HAVE SHOWN YOURSELVES TO BE INCAPABLE OF DETERMINING WHAT LIES AND TRUTH ARE, INCAPABLE OF AN INVESTIGATIVE REPORT, SCARED SHUITLESS OF THE IMPERIAL FAMILY AND YOUR CORPORATE MASTERS

FUCK YOU BROKAW! YOU HAVE LET US ALL DOWN AND STOPPED PERFORMING YOUR JOB BUT YOU MAKE A HELL OF A DISINFORMATION OFFICER!


This is for Tom and George and all the other Medis Whores who have convinced themselves that they serve the People when in fact they routinely lick the boots of the Emperor* and polish them to a high gloss:



We don't believe you because you stopped being credible long ago.
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dumpster_baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. ha ha! I Love those angry smilies! -eom
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Deb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
16. Oh dear
I'm so tempted to send Brokaw sliced Velveeta to go with his whine.

We drove 40 miles to a movie theater for what should have been the on nightly news. I hope his arse is sore from sitting on all those dots.

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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
18. "Objectivity" is not A said, "...", B said, "..." when one of A and B
is clearly lying. The mainstream media refuse to try to find out which one. Their reporting sucks.
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Bushevik operatives have forced this Sea Change, I have no doubt
None.

This was a targeted movement and was for more than three decades.

Perhaps not directly conspiratorialized, but at the very least a natura outgrowth of YEARS of flinching when the Busheviks cocked their "Liberal Media" fist.

"OK, OK already! We'll report your utter fabrications as a he said-she said if you'll just stop hitting and HURTING us.

Now we have a media fit for Commie China.

Thanks alot, Scaredy Whores.
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spooky3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
22. Today's media would interview Hitler and Roosevelt, then
Edited on Tue Jul-13-04 01:05 PM by spooky3
say proudly that they were presenting "both sides of the story." There would be no attempt to determine who was acting in the best interests of humankind, who was lying, who was a megalomaniac murderer, etc.

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Tamyrlin79 Donating Member (944 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
23. The Big Picture
They are right when they say that the media covered all the stuff in Michael Moore's movie... I mean, that is his main source for film footage. The problem is that they cover ONE thing, and then another thing, and cannot seem to CONNECT them together in a comprehensible manner. The media focuses on the day's "big story" (see Michael Jackson and Scott Peterson) but has no sense of context. The problem then becomes that the press misses the "big picture". And that's what Moore gives people that the myopic media completely misses.

Also, Wolf Blitzer said last night on the Daily Show that EVERYBODY in congress and in the administration were "saying the same thing" so there was no reason to think that they were wrong. Unfortunately, he forgets about the HUGE number of war protesters out there who were saying just that at the time... and they failed miserably in covering the protesters opinions and perspective on the matter, or, if they did cover it, did it with a "crazy hippie liberal dove war protesters at it again" slant, rather than actually considering their arguments and asking THEIR questions to the administration. And this DESPITE the clear difference in numbers who protested against Afghanistan vs Iraq.


Jeremey
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Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. How right you are
Just look at how so many things are just reported once as a one day news item and never picked up again or correlated back to other issues. The hour long news shows would be perfect for this, but they mainly do personal interest items. We receive so much more news, but any analysis done is just contentious squabbling.

Welcome to DU Jeremey!
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