Groupthink and the slide into fascism

[54anickel]

I posted this in todays Stock Market Watch Thread, and thought it deserved a bit more prominent posting. Scary stuff here, but I'm sure nothing new to many DUers.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/FG27Aa01.html

snip>

While groupthink is undoubtedly to blame for the Iraq war's false premises, the full implications of the "groupthink" that occurred, as well as that which is ongoing, appear to have yet to emerge.

Highlighting a disturbing reality, Burston had noted parallels between the social psychology of the present and that of the 1930s.
In a further parallel to the 1930s, on July 9 the conservative Chicago Sun-Times (one of the United States' top 50 papers) ran a commentary on US fascism, stating that "fascism' is not an exaggeration", and adding that anyone who doubted this "doesn't know what fascism is". It went on to note: "Some liberals suggest that the administration is capable of canceling the November election on the grounds of national security if it looks like Bush would lose. I doubt this." But on July 11 and 12, news of the administration seeking legal authority for just such an election postponement - a delay in the November election for national-security reasons - widely broke.

snip>

In discussing questions of contemporary fascism with Asia Times Online, Dr Parenti said, "When fascism came to power , what it did was cut back on the public sector, privatize a lot of state-owned industries, abolish inheritance taxes and other taxes on the rich, abolish corporate taxes, cut wages, destroy labor unions, and destroy or undermine opposition parties." He described fascism as simply a tool employed by ruthless power-elites in achieving their ambitions. He added: "There's a concern that we're heading towards fascism, or that we're replicating fascism today."

snip>

Comparing today's United States to the 1930s, Parenti addressed the recent US Supreme Court decision allowing Vice President Dick Cheney and the Bush administration to refuse public access to the documents of Cheney's so-called Energy Task Force. Indications exist that oil-war questions were discussed within this group, a September 2003 Inter Press Service article, "Oil war questions surround Cheney energy group", addressing such concerns. Parenti strongly emphasized the implications of the court decision.

"The Supreme Court decision does, in effect, lift the executive power to an unaccountable and undemocratic status. So you really have no way for Congress or the public to hold these people accountable for what they're doing......

more...

[indigobusiness]

1. Great post.

This is right on the money.

This part is chilling. I keep reading it over and over:

snip-

Notably, before the Iraq war began, numerous figures had publicly challenged the Bush administration's prewar assertions. On September 9, 2002, CNN had headlined "Former weapons inspector: Iraq not a threat", noting, "Former UN weapons inspector Scott Ritter says US military action against Iraq would be a mistake." And oil-war questions were abundant.

But highlighting the dynamics of what was ongoing, Kwiatkowski had charged that "there was an extra-governmental network operating outside normal structures and practices, 'a network of political appointees in key positions who felt they needed to take some action, to make things happen in a foreign affairs, national security way'. She said Pentagon personnel and the DIA were pressured to favorably alter assessments and reports", a hard core of misguided individuals within the administration of US President George W Bush enjoying "a mistaken sense of legitimacy" in their efforts, spreading this false and wrongful mindset to many of those they encountered.

While groupthink is undoubtedly to blame for the Iraq war's false premises, the full implications of the "groupthink" that occurred, as well as that which is ongoing, appear to have yet to emerge.

snip-

[54anickel]

4. Yes, especially that last line you snipped! "Have yet to emerge".

Ongoing "groupthink" that we don't even know about yet.

I am just about to read the July 8 article that this one references where the author covers the "social fantasy systems" and "socially patterned defects" as explaining much of the Bush administration's decision-making.

[The Crazy Canadian]

13. Groupthink=neocons

[Trillo]

2. More Groupthink...

Burston believes we're "on the verge" of fascism?

By keeping us thinking that it's "almost here" we're led gently away from believing that it's already arrived, toward believing that we still have time to delay it's arrival, in practical terms keeping our heads in the sand of denial regarding current events.

This is a cleverly written propaganda piece, IMO.

[54anickel]

3. I'm not getting the propaganda spin in this at all. Did you read the

entire article or just the snippets? From the snippets, I can see where you would come to that conclusion.

[Trillo]

7. The end of the article moves away from what Burton said,

if one is aware of current events. (most here are)

Here's the paragraph I refer to:
"Burston had said he believed the US could be poised "on the verge" of a corporate fascism, and eminent political scientist Dr Michael Parenti (Yale PhD in political science and author of 18 books) spoke similarly. And indeed, the slippery slope of "groupthink" in effect provided the basis for the psycho-dynamics dominating the rise of 1930s fascism, its proponents of a "new order" perceiving endless lies, propaganda, repression, mass violence, and even mass murder as legitimate means to what they perceived as their "noble" ends, versus tragic and criminal delusions. Students of history will note the "groupthink" evidenced in Germany's 1930s mass rallies at Nuremberg, though the realization of what was then occurring didn't fully emerge until the Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunals of the 1940s."

[indigobusiness]

5. That is a bit facile and too clever by half, for me.

I welcome any kind of light shone on this topic.

This didn't have any ring of propaganda from my perspective.

The piece is not saying we have time, to be unalarmed. It is saying that the wolf is at the door. To debate how many paws are over the threshold seems silly.

[Trillo]

6. And I'm saying the Wolf is already inside. Forget the paws....

The Wolf has been inside ever since I can remember, and I'm well over 40. Personally, my research has lead me to believe the facists started their takeover during the Hoover administration.

But everyone can believe, and take from, whatever they do from the read. I merely draw a distinction between "at the door" and "already inside." That is the psychological propaganda I percieve.

Perhaps if you reread what I wrote, the distinction will be clearer, perhaps not.

[indigobusiness]

8. That was my point.

Persuading those that haven't woken up to that fact is the purpose of the piece.

[54anickel]

9. Perhaps you have a different opinion than the author, but I don't think

that makes it fair to call it a piece of propaganda. Wouldn't that in it's own way attempting to instill a form of "groupthink" to anyone that would read the article?

[Trillo]

10. I never really got a good handle on what the author meant by

the term "groupthink". Media, IMO, might be one such type of group thinking, with its mass distribution and all, where others' thoughts might be supplanted for one's own.

Look at today's Iraq, and the imminent decision to censor freedom of speech. It's a different approach to changing mass perceptions, but one that is anathema to our own constitution; curiously, it's an approach favored by China.

This article was in the Asia Times.

Edited to add:
Perhaps there's a fine line between propaganda and persuasion.

[Kenneth ken]

11. I will both agree and disagree with you

I do largely agree with your sense of the US already being fascist in the sense of corporate power having far too much control.

I think where "on the verge" may come from is that there are still many in the US who are opposed to that corporate power, so there is not really a full slide into fascism yet.

"Groupthink" specifically in terms of Iraq, would encompass the Bush* misadministration assertions that it was necessary to invade; OSP cherry-picking intelligence reports to include inofrmation supporting invasion, while excluding information that didn't support invasion; media essentially acting as an echo-chamber for the pro-invasion faction, and the mass of citizens who bought into that without questioning any of the dissent.

France,Germany, and millions of protesters around the world were opposed to the invasion, yet instead of looking at why, they were simply dismissed and derided. That, to me, was due to "groupthink" accepting the necessity of invasion, and so rejecting, out-of-hand, any contrary voices.

We retain the veneer of democracy, whether it has any substance is somewhat open to question.

I disagree that this article is propaganda; it certainly doesn’t have a pro-groupthink slant; nor do I really think it is meant to pacify those who would be opposed to the US sliding into fascism; at worst, it voices concerns that fascism may be imminent and we who favor democracy should be very concerned. In that sense, whether fascism has arrived or not, concern is a proper response to the actions of the present misadministration.

[54anickel]

12. "This article was in the Asia Times" - your point?

[Trillo]

15. China is a big part of Asia.

"China" is printed on the Asia Times homepage. China is a country where political dissent, and the corresponding freedom of its citizens to speak openly and directly about their public policy, is explicitly curbed.

I'm sorry you are having so much difficulty following my thoughts. That you disagree with what you do understand is clear.

Because I was raised by an extremely hypnotic "Dr.", quite a dysfunctional man he was, a man who had quite a deceptive public mask that others swallowed gullibly, perhaps I tune in to subtle psychological ploys that others miss.

My opinion is obviously unpopular here. I noted that the article was "clever", but that compliment seems lost on all the critics of my thoughts here, all that is seen of what I write is the word "propaganda" I chose to use and the need to argue endlessly with what is perceived as my "obviously wrong" perceptions. (a few did agree that several points may be debated)

I will re-emphasize the edit I made earlier, that perhaps there is a fine line between propaganda and persuasion.

That's as far as I'm willing to compromise.

Doctors use lying as a healing technique, they are trained in it. I think schools did them quite a service training them explicity with those techniques, given that so many of those who rise in our society seem adept at it, and given that lower school graduates are NEVER deliberately trained to deceive, in fact, quite the opposite was my experience.

The moment a "Dr. SoandSo" is mentioned, my cynic hackles raise. Most people are most trusting of doctors than I. (I could explain this in more depth, but it's not really germane to the discussion)

Here is precisely the problem I have with the article. First off, I believe the title is deceptive, a question is raised in this reader's mind about what "groupthink" is, and I don't believe this question is adequately answered in the text. So while a reader might be looking for that information, other thoughts are expressed, some of which I do disagree with completely, this is the "cleverness" of which I spoke. While the reader looks for examples of groupthink, other sub-conscious thoughts are implanted if they are not caught and challenged.

It is similar the magicians ploy of getting the crowd to watch one hand, while the other hand quickly hides the prior object of attention. It is similar to a subject who focuses on a spiral printed on a circular moving disk, while the hypnotist speaks gently and softly the suggestion the subject is to follow.

I will re-emphasize, it is quite a clever persuasion, and does fall under the dictionary definition of propaganda.

I quote Random House Webster's Unabridged Dictionary:
prop·a·gan·da, n.
1. information, ideas, or rumors deliberately spread widely to help or harm a person, group, movement, institution, nation, etc.

[CrispyQ]

14. We lost our democracy with the 1886 Supreme Court ruling . . .

on Santa Clary County vs. Southern Pacific Railroad. Corporate Personhood is the most vile, anti-democratic event to come about.


http://reclaimdemocracy.org/corporate_accountability/history_corporations_us.html


<snip>
For 100 years after the American Revolution, legislators maintained tight controlled the corporate chartering process. Because of widespread public opposition, early legislators granted very few corporate charters, and only after debate. Citizens governed corporations by detailing operating conditions not just in charters but also in state constitutions and state laws. Incorporated businesses were prohibited from taking any action that legislators did not specifically allow.

<snip>
But the men running corporations pressed on. Contests over charter were battles to control labor, resources, community rights, and political sovereignty. More and more frequently, corporations were abusing their charters to become conglomerates and trusts. They converted the nation's resources and treasures into private fortunes, creating factory systems and company towns. Political power began flowing to absentee owners, rather than community-rooted enterprises

<snip>
One of the most severe blows to citizen authority arose out of the 1886 Supreme Court case of Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad. Though the court did not make a ruling on the question of “corporate personhood,” thanks to misleading notes of a clerk, the decision subsequently was used as precedent to hold that a corporation was a "natural person."

From that point on, the 14th Amendment, enacted to protect rights of freed slaves, was used routinely to grant corporations constitutional “personhood.” Justices have since struck down hundreds of local, state and federal laws enacted to protect people from corporate harm based on this illegitimate premise. Armed with these “rights,” corporations increased control over resources, jobs, commerce, politicians, even judges and the law.
<end snip>

Corporate Personhood must be revoked!

[Dancing_Dave]

16. Brilliant! Awesomely Insightful! Right On!

:yourock:

So now writers for the Asian Times can get away with telling a lot more TRUTH than they could ever tell writing for an American paper???

[PATRICK]

17. Finally getting beyond the epithet

It is not namecalling but FINALLY trying to actually pin down a recurring manifestation of tyranny. Whatever the brand name or nation the effects will all be the same with minor differences purely for political necessity, convenience or greater goals of selfish enrichment. The perception of differences with fascism since they have to "tolerate" labor unions and social security barely mask their ultimate intentions and certainly not their philosophical scorn. It is not that a corporatist ruling party in the US is a uniformed reincarnation of the Third Reich(although their are certain clinging historical links), but that in the end they are both more of the dreary same pestilence of the so-called strong(I got guns and your money please) over the victims(the majority of humanity).

So predictable is their thinking(truncated and unimaginative as it is laced with brutal cunning) that the weary oppressed, numbed by history books of several sorry millennia(still a drop in the bucket of human evolution) are happy that "our" successful strongmen are nicer to us than "their" nasty strongmen and dole out favors from the pilfered coffers of our sweat equity. Hence, sometimes the frustrated illusion they have "popular" support, hinged upon their favorite vices and only virtue- greed and hatred and self-glorification.

And it is a dread warning to those who would put them down and replace them that the corruption of power can turn today's populist democrat into a type of fascist. A hypocritical spiteful barb after they inevitably crash and burn yet again. So in order not just to drive "them" out, "we" really have to make democracy healthier and more open
and not presume it can't happen to us.

One start is to identify mistakes such as the ridiculous premise that people totally talented and consumed with the accumulation of personal profit and prestige are fit also to serve the total interest of the planet. Morally and psychologically they are usually crippled by that avocation. The greater and more famed, the more likely this insufficiency of great character will become diseased, and the less fit for governance of anything. Another is to reverse the models of their values and behavior which has structurally cramped and poisoned our democracy(never mind the final outright theft and lies we are reversing this year!)

The world, maybe in the Biblical sense after all, has to be kept turning "upside down" and never "Right-side" up into slavery.
Fascism is a defeated historical monstrosity. So will be the American
far Right. Same goals, same character, same victims, same grave.

[indigobusiness]

18. kick

kick