the great chasm…was formed about 4,500 years ago, a direct consequence of

[rodeodance]

SCIENCE –

"http://www.americanprogressaction.org/site/pp.asp?c=klLWJcP7H&b=253514"

THANK GOD FOR THE GRAND CANYON:

In National Park Service (NPS) affiliated bookstores at Grand Canyon National Park, visitors can now "find literature informing them that the great chasm…was formed about 4,500 years ago, a direct consequence of Noah's Flood." Indeed, this is "the ill-informed premise of 'Grand Canyon, a Different View,' a handsomely-illustrated volume written by Tom Vail, who with his wife operates Canyon Ministries, conducting creationist-view tours of the canyon." Pro-science groups tried to get the book pulled off the shelf, noting it was "based on a specific religious doctrine" and should not be promoted by the state, but they were "overruled by NPS headquarters, which announced that a high-level policy review of the matter would be launched." To date, Grand Canyon National Park no longer offers an official estimate of the age of the canyon, and the NPS has blocked publication of guidance intended for park rangers that reminds them there is no scientific basis for creationism.

[tk2kewl]

1. the gap is widenening

:wtf:

[Anakin Skywalker]

4. The Gap is Widening, All Right!

Yeah! Between reasonable, sensible people and the religious fundies here in America!

[Liberal Veteran]

2. Bwah-ha-ha....what a fucking joke.

I am really getting an attitude about Christianity in America.

[MrUnderhill]

3. Well.... I wouldn't call it a "specific religious doctrine"

since it's an underlying myth for almost all religions...


but it's also a crock.

I happen to believe in the flood... but there's no way it created the Grand canyon. It's hydrodynamicaly impossible.

[Liberal Veteran]

6. Noah's flood is SPECIFICALLY Judeo-Christian....

Period.

There may be other "flood myths" in other religions, but when you start talking about Noah, you are specifically referring to Old Testament religion.

[MrUnderhill]

7. Untrue

Ever read Sura 11: 25-48? That isn't in the Christian Bible.

And giving the flood itself a name does not make it part of doctrine. If earlier religions believed in a great flood that just a few people were spared from (in a big boat)... it's the same story. Who cares if they called the guy Noah?


You think that some follower of one of those ancient religions is going to read a book saying the great flood caused the Canyon and yell "Hey! They misspelled 'Utnapishtim' 'Noah'!!! Heathens!"

[Liberal Veteran]

8. The moment Noah is mentioned, it becomes part of a specific mythology.

You may choose to disagree, but show me any other religion that discusses Noah?

I specifically stated that other religions have flood myths (given that floods are a devastating natural disaster, it's hardly surprising that various mythologies have flood myths), but the moment you start associating the flood with Noah and his magical ark, then you are specifically referring to a the Old Testament mythology.

[MrUnderhill]

10. As I said "Noah" is also Islamic.

He's one of their prophets.

[Liberal Veteran]

12. And Islam has it's roots in the same mythology as Judaism and Christianity

All three are semitic religions that sprang forth the same basic mythology. They all spring forth from Abraham in one form or another.

If the Qu'ran calls Noah something different, it is largely irrelevant or the pamphlet would mention that particular spelling as well.

If you are going to try to convince me that specifically mentioning a mythological person named Noah is not an attempt by creationists to propogate "Judeo-Christian" mythology, then you are wasting your breath on me.

It's like mentioning Jesus who is thought to be a wise man by the same religions you mention and a messiah to one in particular.

It is pretty much only in the west that we specifically segregate Islam from that base of mythology.

In other countries they refer to the Judeo-Christian-Islam ethic/culture/heritage.

[MrUnderhill]

11. He's also named in

Russian mythology (seperate from christianity)

The aboriginies in Australia, and the Herschel Island Eskimo

[varun]

25. Can you name any non Judeo-Christian-Muslim

religions where Noah is mentioned?

Islam shares many of the same prophets as Christianity...

Joseph is Yusuf
Mary is Mariam
Abraham is Ibrahim

and so forth....in fact, much of the Quran is derived from the Bible...including the stories of Sodom and Gomorrah (called Lut) in Islam.

So I'm not surprised that you would find Noah's name in Quran.

[Sin]

9. I just watched

on the Discovery channel a little while back
that the great flood myth could have sprung from the slow riseing of the sea. In turn it broke through the small land bridge that connected the ocean to what would be the Black sea, causeing a massive flood over a short pierod of time essentaly makeing the black sea.

[Demeter]

14. That's Okay, Bush Is Getting Us A Real, Live US Made Flood

It's called Global Warming--coming to a seashore near you.

[struggle4progress]

31. I thought Noah's literary roots lay in the saga of Gilgamesh. eom

[kcwayne]

15. Not true

I read a refutation of the premise that the great flood is part of a large number of religions years ago. I think it was by Carl Sagan, but I have forgotten the source.

But a cursory look at the flood myths of these cultures supports the refutation. These myths common demoninator is a flood, but the scope and consequences are largely not shared with the Christian myth.

Flood Myths

[Liberal Veteran]

16. Sigh....I didn't say there weren't multiple flood myths...

What I said was that the MENTION OF NOAH (specifically) is related to Judeo-Christian mythology.

Why can't people make that distinction?

If you talk about a flood...it could be many religions.

Talk about Noah's flood and you are specifically referring to the biblical account.

Understand?

[MrUnderhill]

18. no

You act like the Islamic connection isn't a big deal... as if that somehow fits into the "Judeo-Christian" bucket.

The Koran is NOT a "biblical" source.

[Liberal Veteran]

22. I note you ignored that Islam/Judaism/Christianity share the same base...

You speak of Islam as though it weren't just another branch of the same basic mythology.

Thus, it's not really surprising that all three talk about Noah, Abraham, etc.....

Indeed, all three myths come from Abraham.

When you speak of the Qu'ran and Bible and early semitic mythology as though it didn't branch from the same source, you are being intellectually dishonest.

It's like saying Christianity and Judaism arose from seperate cultures on the other side of the world. That didn't happen.

It also ignores United States culture and is intellectually dishonest to claim that when a pamphlet is put out referring to Noah's flood, that it is really encompassing everything from the semitic myths to the Greek/Roman myths, Norse mythology, Hindu, paganism, and my personal belief that the world was crapped out of a great turtle after devouring a giant lotus flower.

Let's not pretend otherwise. If they wanted to say "some people believe that the Grand Canyon was formed in a great flood that is referred to in various religious accounts", then you would be talking about something that is not referring to a specific religion.

When you start naming names specific to a trio of religions that have a mutual origin, then you are promoting a specific form of faith, that being the semitic faiths referred to as Judaism/Christianity/Muslim.

[MrUnderhill]

26. No

YOU said "specifically judeo-christian" and "specifically old-testament"

It isn't.

And the point of the pamphlet (and no I haven't read it) is to put forward a non-evolutionary "science" view of where the world came from. You're acting like it's NOAH's flood that they are so interested in... when really, they're just fighting against the notion that the Grand Canyon took million of years to carve (when they "know" the world is only 6000 years old).

They're promoting a "god-created" Earth in opposition to a multi-billion-year-old universe that just "happened" to produce mankind. This underlying purpose is shared by FAR more than just the Abrahamic ofspring religions.

The specific naming is hardly relevant. Whether I say "Ares" or "Mars", I am speaking of the "God of War". The Greeks and Romans might not agree on the name... but the function/position is there.

Peace, friend. I'm going to bed.

[MissMarple]

19. Perfectly clear. No worries.

:hi:

And the several regional religions previous to Christianity that have so many of the same elements shouldn't go unmentioned, but they probably need their own thread. The insularity of parochial Christian thinking is dismaying. Christians really should study the historical roots of their religion. But then the fundies would just implode. Hmmm....

[kcwayne]

20. Sigh, I was responding to post 3, not yours

and was responding specifically to the statement
"since it's an underlying myth for almost all religions..."
which I interpreted to mean that a Noah's type flood was an underlying myth of all religions, which I don't find to be true.

[MrUnderhill]

17. Did you by any chance READ the link you sent?

Chaldean -

"told him to build a vessel (5 stadia by 2 stadia) for himself, his friends and relations, and all kinds of animals"

Babylonian -

Enlil adivsed the gods to destroy all humans with a flood, but Enki had Atrahasis build an ark and so escape. Also on the boat were cattle, wild animals and birds, and Atrahasis' family. After the flood, the gods regretted their action, and Enki established barren women and stillbirth to avoid the problem in the future.

Hindu -

"The Lord of the Universe," to preserve king Satyavarata from dangers of the depravity of the age, sent him a large ship, and told him to gather himself, medicinal herbs, and pairs of brute animals aboard it to save them from a flood"

Caddo Indians (OK)

"One man heard a voice telling him to plant a hollow reed. He did so, and it quickly grew very big. He, his wife, and pairs of all good animals entered the reed."

Zoroastrianism

"After Ahura Mazda has warned Yima that destruction in the form of winter, frost, and floods, subsequent to the melting of the snow, are threatening the sinful world, he proceeds to instruct him to build a vara, 'fortress or estate,' in which specimens of small and large cattle, human beings, dogs, birds, red flaming fires, plants and foodstuffs will have to be deposited in pairs."


Yes... plenty of flood mythology does not fit the "noahic" account. And yes, plenty are not worldwide floods.

But this is WAY more than just a judeo-christian thing. And way more than an Abrahamic thing (as the second spin goes).

[kcwayne]

21. Yes I did read it

You picked myths from cultures that were geographically close so it is no surprise that the mythology looks similar. Geological evidence shows that the Black Sea was once separated from the Mediterranean, and that it appears that an earthquake ruptured the natural land dam that separated the seas, causing a massive and catastrophic flood.

Black Sea Flood

An event of this magnitude would register with all of the cultures in the area. This flood pre-dated Christianity, and would cross all religions in that area that carried the rememberance forward through the generations.

I interpreted your statement the flood is represented in a majority of religions as an opinion that the Noah type flood, with life being saved in a magical boat. This is not supported by the evidence, especially when you consider the myths from Indian tribes in North and South America.

Kwaya Flood Myth
A man and his wife had a pot which never ran out of water. They told their daugher-in-law only never to touch it, but she grew curious and touched it. It shattered, and the resulting flood drowned everything.

Total flood, no magic boat


Flood Myth of the Maya
The gods used a flood to destroy the wooden people, an early imperfect version of humanity.

No Total flood, no magic boat


Flood Myths of the Sioux
Unktehi, a water monster, fought the people and caused a great flood. The people retreated to a hill, but the water swept over them, killing them all. The blood jelled and turned to pipestone. Unktehi was also turned to stone; her bones are in the Badlands now. A giant eagle, Wanblee Galeshka, swept down, saved one girl from the flood, and made her his wife.

No Total flood, no magic boat

Flood Myth of the Yamana (Tierra del Fuego)
Lexuwakipa, the rusty brown spectacled ibis, felt offended by the people, so she let it snow so much that ice came to cover the entire earth. When it melted, it rapidly flooded all the earth except five mountaintops, on which a few people escaped. Signs of the floodwaters still show up on those mountains.

Total flood, but no magic boat

[starroute]

30. Not everyone has flood myths -- and not all flood myths are alike

Stephen Oppenheimer's Eden in the East (which argues that flood myths go back to the great melting at the end of the Ice Age) gives a rundown:

The most ancient myths -- in Africa, Australia, and New Guinea -- describe creation as beginning with dry land and rarely include flood stories.

The northern hunters of both Asia and North America tend to have creation stories in which land originally emerged out of water (or was fished up from beneath the water) but not flood stories.

Flood stories are most common and most fully developed among the early agricultural societies of the Old World -- Europe, the Middle East, India, Tibet, China, Japan, Southeast Asia, and Polynesia.

The Noah's-ark type of story is actually most common and diverse in Southeast Asia, and Oppenheimer believes this is because Indonesia (most of which which was attached to the continent during the Ice Age) suffered the greatest degree of flooding. It also seems likely that the entire complex of planting myths (dying grain gods and so forth) began in Southeast Asia and spread west from there, flood myths included.

[silverweb]

5. Absolutely mindboggling.

Revolting. Disgusting. Insane.

I'm so thankful that my kids are grown and have no little ones of their own!

[MissMarple]

13. Not just in the NPS, Air Force Academy faces faith bias allegations

This is crazy making.

http://gazette.com/display.php?sid=1353918

"The fish stinks from the head, and the head of this fish is (Superintendent) John Rosa and (Commandant) Johnny Weida,” said an academy graduate whose son has been called “a (expletive) Jew” and “Christ killer” by other cadets, who were not punished.

...
Commandant Brig. Gen. Johnny Weida, who has said he is a “born again” Christian, issued an e-mail message to personnel shortly after arriving in April 2003, urging all to “ask the Lord to give us the wisdom to discover the right. . . . The Lord is in control. He has a plan for . . . every one of us.”

Whitaker saw nothing wrong with the advisory, saying it was sent in observance of the National Day of Prayer, “something that is sanctioned by the highest levels of our government.”

- A month later, Weida issued a memo saying, “Remember, you are accountable first to your God. . . .” The Air Force oath requires allegiance to the U.S. Constitution first."

[Gay Green]

23. This IS crazy-making!

Call queers walking, talking abominations and call Jewish people Christkillers... before you know it, people are being rounded up for extermination! It happened before, and my father's generation had to send in swarms of armies from Russia, England and her Commonwealth dominions, and the US to liberate Europe and expose the horrid deeds.

[newyawker99]

28. Hi Gay Green!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[bobbieinok]

27. Air Force Academy and Dobson's Focus on the Family in Co Springs

[genieroze]

24. Check this out

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x86721

[Liberty Belle]

29. Where's the ACLU?

If setting up a manger scene on public property violates the Constitution, then surely teaching a religious viewpoint, to the complete exclusion of science, most also be illegal.

Quick--somebody send this to the ACLU! They should file a lawsuit to stop this nonsense.

[opihimoimoi]

32. Where is Logic, Common Sense, Sanity, and Reason?

Rejecting the above is paramount to DELUSION Gone WILD

[rodeodance]

33. here is some history of the Contraversy

http://www.canyonministries.com/index_files/Controversy.htm

[dand]

34. It should be a crime to pedal this kind of trash.

Of course the sheep who buy this shit are ardent Bush supporters.