Molly Ivins: Is this American?

[Dudley_DUright]

It is both peculiar and chilling to find oneself discussing the problem of American torture. I have considered support of basic human rights and dignity so much a part of our national identity that this feels as strange as though I'd suddenly become Chinese or found Fidel Castro in the refrigerator.

One's first response to the report by the International Red Cross about torture at our prison at Guantanamo is denial. "I don't want to think about it; I don't want to hear about it; we're the good guys, they're the bad guys; shut up. And besides, they attacked us first."

But our country has opposed torture since its founding. One of our founding principles is that cruel and unusual punishment is both illegal and wrong. Every year, our State Department issues a report grading other countries on their support for or violations of human rights.

The first requirement here is that we look at what we are doing -- and not blink, not use euphemisms. Despite the Red Cross' polite language, this is not "tantamount to torture." It's torture. It is not "detainee abuse." It's torture. If they were doing it to you, you would know it was torture. It must be hidden away, because it's happening in Cuba or elsewhere abroad.

Yes, it's true, we did sort of know this already. It was clear when the Abu Ghraib scandal broke in Iraq that the infection had come from Guantanamo. The infamous memos by Alberto Gonzales, our next attorney general, and by John Ashcroft's "Justice" Department pretty well laid it out.

more...

http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?itemid=18186

[BrainRants]

1. Right On Molly! n/t

[Zep]

2. Hate to sound cynical, but ...

... how were prisoners of the USA interrogated during WWII? You don't hear horror stories like you did during Korea and Nam, but a war to win and all that. Certainly the bombing was worse in that era.

Not to mention the Indian wars, there you do hear horror stories.

I like to think that us USAians are better than that, but ...

[Bridget Burke]

7. Do some research.

Let us know what you find out.

[Martin Eden]

8. Moral Equivalency & Self Interest

It's a mistake to cite the horror stories of Korea, 'Nam, & the Indian wars when discussing Abu Ghraib & Guantanimo. Think about it: that's like saying since others committed even worse torture, we should be given a pass for ours. When we employ such comparisons, we embark on the slippery slope to perdition. We establish a moral equivalency between us and those we condemn as evil. This is especially hypocritical for the United States, which claims for itself an exceptionalism based upon the supposed moral supremacy of our national creed.

Some will argue it is naive and foolish to place such considerations above national security when dealing with terrorists who don't play by the rules. I agree, but I also assert that our policy of torture at Guantanimo & Abu Ghraib have harmed our national security. Any intelligence we may have gathered by such means is far outweighed by what this has done for the Islamic militants and their efforts at spreading their fundamentalist anti-American world view throughout Islam. The Abu Ghraib photos will do more for recruiting the next generation of terrorists than any videotape released bu Osama bin Laden.

One cannot completely separate moral guidance from one's own self interest. Lacking moral authority, America can't expect other nations to accept our leadership or go out of their way to help us. There is no excuse for a policy of torture -- not on the basis of morality, self interest, or the fact that others have done worse.

[starroute]

10. My impression about torture in World War II ...

Is that it was practiced in an ad hoc way on the battlefield, but not in any systematic Guantanemo-style manner in the prison camps.

That is, if soldiers captured an enemy in the course of combat, they might well hook him up to the field telephone to try to find out more about the numbers and locations of the troops they were fighting. But once that enemy soldier was taken back to headquarters, he was under the protection of the Geneva Convention.

There was certainly enough free-form brutality going on to cast a certain pall over the American victory in World War II. The awareness of it was part of what made the film noir of the late 40's quite as noir as it was. But it was nothing like what is happening now.

[freesqueeze]

3. She's Has A Point ...

"...if we break international law and the conventions of warfare, then the same thing can be done to American soldiers who are captured abroad. Any country can use exactly the same lame rationale about "enemy combatants" to torture American troops in any kind of conflict."

I have been trying to make this argument to all conservatives who claim Mr. Bush's administration has broken no laws of consequence. This convenient redefinition of POWs will come back to haunt us 10 fold.

Don't expect any mea-culpa from the GOP when this happens. Just like they won't tolerate any other nation electively deciding to invade another country ....

"Why that's outrageous!" Right....no more outrageous than when Bush did it.

[colonel odis]

5. "so they won't do it to our guys" is a very good argument against

the u.s. torturing captured combatants. problem is, the bush administration doesn't really give a shit if they do it to our guys.

look how they're treating our soldiers themselves: using them in a back door draft, failing to equip them properly, billing them for hospital stays after they get blown up.

the only use the bush bunch has for soldiers is as symbols. if one gets captured, then they splash the poor schmuck's face all over television so middle america can hold candlelight vigils for the tv cameras.

[teryang]

9. The US sets the precedent in international law

...and the precedent is set by how we conduct our operations rather than in a courtroom. The DOD policy has always been to comply with the conventions and to avoid violations of the law of war. Then this crowd of fascist criminals took over the government and turned it upside down.

[realFedUp]

4. Torture is not an American value

or at least to Americans who keep pretending
we are the good guys...

[Overseas]

6. kick kick and kick again -- n/t