When will Dems/Libs learn? (or if you want to know why Bush won)

[RUDUing2]

This is how middle america views dems and libs...

so what do you think of these articles?

http://www.oaoa.com/columns/edit111004.htm
The post-mortems on the Bush election victory have been fascinating, especially those coming from supporters of Sen. John Kerry. Some Democratic backers have been remarkably sober in their judgment. But others have drawn conclusions of the sort that will only make it more difficult for Democrats to win future national elections.
Democratic strategist Bob Bechtel said on the Fox network’s “Hannity and Colmes” that Democrats need to reach out to pro-life voters. That’s an amazing concession and a recognition that the reason Democrats failed to attract enough voters in the red states has something to do with Democratic priorities and the contempt Democrats often have for Middle America....Democrats need to evaluate these trends rather than engage in the name-calling and demonization of red-state America that some commentators are engaging in. That may be enjoyable, soon after a bitter election loss, but it’s destructive in so many ways.

http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=5699
Have you witnessed the fallout from the latest election -- how it has affected Liberals? It has unmasked them entirely.

They think religious people are stupid. Not just stupid, dangerous.

Make that Christians. More specifically, make that Evangelicals.

The Left, the base of the Democratic Party, hail the virtues of tolerance and consider themselves to be the tolerant citizens of America. In their touting of tolerance they express their obvious disdain for those whose views run contrary to that of enlightened Liberalism.

Dare to make a statement of conviction of any kind, and one of these Leftists will set down his cheese and wine, pause his lecture on the virtues of plurality and the absurdity of the belief in absolute Truth, and tell you your convictions -- everything you believe and hold dear -- are absolutely wrong. Where does he get his understanding that what you claim is "right" is actually not? Against what standard is this wrongness measured? He can't say. All he knows is that you're a bigot, you're intolerant, you're not worthy of being an American. In fact, you're not smart enough to understand what it means to be an American.

And not only are you dumb, you're dangerous. Fanatics like you don't belong in a "tolerant" culture like ours. You and your beliefs and the people who share them should not be allowed in our civilized society . . . or, at the very least, you should be denied the right to vote. Because when you vote, when you're politically active, you screw everything up.

People like you foist upon the world monsters like Ronald Reagan, George Bush, Adolf Hitler, Benito Mussolini, and Antonin Scalia.

People like you are the most likely to attack America: you're no different than the Islamists who fly planes into buildings, suicide-bomb pizzerias, detonate car bombs in the middle of busy streets, and blow up buses. At least those Islamic terrorists had a reason: America, pushed by people like you, has oppressed the Arab world. Yes, you are the reason 3,000 Americans were killed on September 11.

Nowhere has your un-Americanism been more poignantly explained and demonstrated than on the New York Times opinion pages over the last two days. Need evidence? Here are portions of five opinion pieces that made it into the ever-so-prestigious (and self-righteous) newspaper of record........

[aquart]

1. What do I think of bigotry and prejudice?

Not much.

[Trajan]

2. Isnt 'Humaneventsonline' an extreme RIGHT WING media outlet ?

[RUDUing2]

5. it may be..but it also tells you what middle america the ones that we

said *how in the hell or why in the hell* are they voting for bush, were doing when they voted for bush...it is because this is the perception that they have of dems and libs...and it is this perception that we have to change if we want to take that vote away from the repubs...

[Trajan]

12. I, like most decent Democrats ....

REFUSE to 'become Republicans' for the sake of YOU feeling better ....

IF my preferred philosophy 'doesnt win', then it doesnt win .. it doesnt make it 'wrong' ....

Furthermore: WHY would I sell out my OWN beliefs just to 'appeal' to GOP voters ? ... Have you NO backbone ? ... Dont YOU have a set of values, a 'code', which you must live by ? ...

I would highly recommend Matcom's most excellent thread from this morning .... http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2791220

We have the RIGHT beliefs .... educating our fellow citizens about those beliefs should be our goal .. NOT kowtowing to the WRONG beliefs for the sake of 'winning' ....

[RUDUing2]

13. you don't live in a state with a high number of fundies do you?

My concern is with winning the government back from the uber-conserves..I don't like living in a state that all three branches are controlled by the conserves and in a country w/the same...so yeah I do want to Feel better...by living in a state and country that is not under complete conserve control..

My goal is to figure out what has to be done to wrest that control away from them..and to do that IMO we have to let go of our sense of moral and intellectual superiority..cause it ain't working...it is broke and we do have to fix it...

[Crunchy Frog]

18. Do only we have to do that, or do they

have to do that too? I don't notice any mention in those articles about the elitist superiority of RWers and the way that they talk about liberals.

Do you think that there's some possibility that some of the perceptions about liberals are coming from a well oiled and pervasive propaganda machine?

I realize that many liberals, (not official spokespersons for the Democratic party, just liberals) have been expressing anger and making some intemperate statements lateley. Have you bothered to look at the sorts of things the RWers have been saying about us for years. There seems to be a little bit of a double standard there. I think we would get a lot farther by pointing that out, rather than just conceding all of their points, and surrendering more of our values.

[RUDUing2]

21. I live in an Ashcrofts home state...believe me I know exactly what the

extremist repubs say about Liberals...thing is I have also seen that the current way of reacting doesn't work, instead it actually strengthens the claims the repubs are making about dems.....

That is why we have to look at what is being said and HOW it is being percieved...and figure out how to change that perception..

It is the old case/scenario of two wrongs don't make a right...

[mazzarro]

14. Absolutely NO WAY am I going to change to a reThug

And, if I may say, your perception is completely WRONG!

[RUDUing2]

16. nobody is asking you to change to a repub...what I am saying is that

we as dems have to figure out how to counter this belief and how to work to regain middle america...or we can continue to claim the moral and intellectual high ground and continue to allow the repubs to win every election at both state and federal level? Is that what you want? Which is more important..being the opposite side of the same coin as the extreme conserves and holding onto your sense of moral and intellectual superiority? or regaining the whitehouse and at least one of the branches of the legislature?

[Crunchy Frog]

19. Let's do it by pointing out the hypocrisy

and the double standards.

[RUDUing2]

20. I agree that is what we need to do..but the question is HOW do we do it

without coming across as having contempt for the intelligence of the ones who we are trying to convince? Because currently that is what is happening..and when they believe we hold them in contempt they just shut down and refuse to listen...

[blm]

33. Horseshit. Human Events tells them what RevMoon WANTS them to think.

.

[tk2kewl]

3. The appear to be wingnut propaganda to me

:shrug:

[RUDUing2]

8. yes but it is very effective propaganda..and this is the propaganda that

have to figure out how to counter if we want to take back the whitehouse and state governments..

[tk2kewl]

15. we must convince them that its bullshit

by exposing it as such

the problem isn't "liberalism", "the liberal elite", or the "liberal media"

the problem is that the corporate America and repug deregulation is debasing our moral values as follows:

paying lower wages

forcing longer work days and weeks

forcing two wage earner families

reducing and removing health care

destroying social safety nets

and so on

[RUDUing2]

17. see that is one of the probs..that is not what the middle american voter

bases their vote on...

they vote on god, guns and booze...they believe that most important issue in the election is gay marriage and prayer in school...they don't think it matters who is in the whitehouse as far as their jobs or pay goes...yes it is crazy..but it also the reality of how and why they vote..

The only way to win their vote is to show that repubs don't hold the high ground on morals and that voting dems doesn't mean that america will become a communist country..(yes they really do believe that)...

[Downtown Hound]

4. It's the same crap they've been preaching for 20 years

yawn.

[RUDUing2]

6. difference is that now they are getting mr and mrs middle america to

believe the crap...and winning elections by doing so...it can't be written off as unimportant anymore..we have to face up to this and figure out how to counter it...

[Crunchy Frog]

22. We need to build up our own think tanks,

our own media, and find effective ways of marketing our ideas and showing middle America how fucked up RW ideas are. IOW, we need to figure out how to counter their ideas effectively, rather than just conceding on them.

If we try to run candidates on gay bashing, anti-choice, and opposition to separation of church and state, we might as well just run a Republican.

Hey, if that's what it takes to win, what's wrong with it? Winning is the only thing that matters right?:shrug:

[RUDUing2]

24. nope never said that...but we do need to open some dialogue again..

and we need to figure out how to get our real beliefs our there, so that they are known.

Teach that pro-choice is not the same thing as pro-abortion..
Teach that gay rights is not anti-marriage or that acknowledging homosexuality is not the same thing as trying to convert heterosexuals (as if that is possible) into homosexuals..
Teach that evolution doesn't mean we don't believe in God..
That teaching sexual education is not teaching promiscuity....

We have to change from the party that talks tolerance to the party that walks tolerance..and that means that we have to convince people that just because we believe certain things in regards to issues does not mean that we advocate forcing them to believe that way too..

[Crunchy Frog]

26. Here's a forum you may want to check out,

about framing the issues. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=252 That seems to be what you're getting at in your posts. You can even participate actively in that forum if you make a small donation and get yourself a star.

It's a place to start anyway.:shrug:

[papau]

7. Right wing biased columns in the media now tell truth - they only lie

pre-election?

Although Human events editor Chris Field is someone I expected to be better able to find the true theme of all those folks he quoted.

[bowens43]

9. He's right.

Fundis are anything but ignorant and dangerous. 'Evangelicals' are no different then the Taliban.

When will these ass clowns learn that being tolerant does not mean accepting ignorance, hatred and bigotry?

[RUDUing2]

11. thing is though is that we have to figure out a way to counter this type

of very effective propaganda in a different way then we have done so far. What we have been doing simply plays into their hands...how do we counter it w/out validating their claims of intellectual superiority and without making them think we hold their values in contempt?

It is all well and good to take the high ground and say we don't have to be tolerant of their intolerance, etc..but if by doing so we end up losing all ability to counter those intolerances, what have we gained?

The dems clung to their superiority in this last election and now we have to go 4 yrs w/all three gov. bodies in the hands of the conserves...so how did that do any good? What we have been doing isn't working..so what do we need to do differently?

[lukasahero]

10. Orwell lives

or how about pot kettle black?

"name-calling and demonization"? Welcome to our world.

[OneBlueSky]

23. Article #1 = bullshit . . . Article #2 = bullshit x 10 . . .

when will we ever learn, indeed . . . when will we ever learn that articles like these are part of the right-wing propaganda campaign that has been growing and refining itself over the past 30 years . . . just because these people say that "liberals hate middle America" and ridicule their values doesn't make it so! . . . that's just propaganda, and they hope that if they say it often enough, people will start to believe it . . . but I don't know any liberals or progressives who hate middle America OR who ridicule their values . . . hell, there's a lot of us who ARE middle America! . . .

now, I do know some liberals who hate the reactionary, far-right religious fundamentalists and who think their values are whacked . . . don't protect the environment because it will delay the apocalypse? . . . sorry, but that's fundamentalist clap-trap . . . and not a middle American value by any means . . .

what writers like this are trying to do with these kinds of missives is equate criticism of Christian fundamentalism with criticism of middle America . . . as if the two were one in the same . . . they're not . . . but if they keep saying it enough and are unchallenged, the country may come to believe that they are . . . that's one of the many things we have to guard against during BushCo II . . .

[RUDUing2]

25. that is the point I am trying to make...in states that went red that have

high numbers of rural voters, they really have bought into this line of thinking. How do we change it? Just saying it is bullcrap or propaganda is all well and good..but it doesn't address the problem...

[MaineYooper]

27. go for the moderate republicans

I don't think we need to change into Republicans, but rather work on converting (or at least co-opting) the moderate wing, which still exists, though it's being constantly marginalized.

I come from a family of moderate Republicans (where I'm viewed as the token screaming liberal), and based on my interactions with them, I believe that we need to work on convincing them that the extreme right of their own party (the fundies) is far more dangerous to them then we are.

It's going to take time, as the repubs are very effective at framing the debate (like in the two articles at the top here), but we need to be as relentless as they are.

Forget the fundies- they'll never vote for us anyway, but given enough time, they will piss off and scare enough of their own party for us to win. (at least that's what I tell myself so I can continue this)

[mutius]

28. YOU ARE ROGHT

IT'S BULL

[mutius]

29. SORRY IT WAS RIGHT NOT ROGHT

[bemildred]

30. Simple minded drool. nt

[mutius]

31. Why the Chimp won?

This guy is so dumb he had no posture, vocabulary, and intelligence in the first debate. I'm a war president, with war on my mind, it's hard work. that was his existent. I said to myself how in the world did this guy get into the White House? then it dawned on me, he cheated. A burned out dry drunk is running the country into the ground. Tell me one good thing that he has done for our country. He is killing everything we have stood for in the last 200 years. In four years he has made such a mess that if the country survives, it will take decades to make it right again. But like I said, America is dying, no matter how they slice it. The Chimp did it. It's his tree, he can't blame anyone but himself now.

[RUDUing2]

32. for the last time I am not supporting the articles..but I am saying that

this is the perception of the dems and libs that the repubs have been able to sell to Mr and Mrs middle america.

I am not saying change to repub or that bushie boy has did anything good for the country.

But that is not relevant to the situation.

Because Mr. and Mrs. middle america doesn't *get* that..to them the repubs are protecting their god, guns and booze...and keeping the dems from turning all their kids into promiscous gays and lesbians..who will use abortion as birth control and do satanic and pagan rituals in school...

These articles hit it exactly bullseye on how the dems and libs are now percieved by Mr. and Mrs. middle america, not just by the extremist fundies.

So how do we change this perception..cause the way we did it in this election did not work...and going even further to the left wont work.

In my dream america Dennis Kuc would be president and Bill Clinton would be Secretary of State..but I know that will never happen..so I am willing to compromise on what my exact perfect situation would be and try to come up with candidates and stances that while staying true to the core of the liberal platform and beliefs are watered down enough that we can win back the middle vote..cause right now all we are doing is to let the conserves have all the power and I have to live with the very realistic fear of all abortion becoming back alley again, the government being in all of our bedrooms and McCarthy style witchhunts starting up again...and I am not willing to be at blame for those things simply because I refuse to compromise while bitching that the conserves wont compromise and have no concern w/what 49% of the voters want...

[Hard_Work]

34. Stop it!!!!!

Why is no one actually hearing what he(she) is saying? The articles are not the important thing, in spite of what you all seem to think. what is important is the way those articles are viewed in the Heartland.

Look, we all know that this is bullshit. But the fact of the matter is that this is what 51% of America feels. And no, no one is saying we have to compromise our principles. We have to develop an effective way of using our principles to prove these heartland beliefs wrong.

You know, over-intellectualizing is why we are looked at as elitist. We have forgotten that "nobody likes a smartass".

[RUDUing2]

37. thank you. At least one person actually read my post and looked at

what I was saying instead of just reacting in an emotional manner to the examples.

[AuntiBush]

35. Nice. Poor New Yorkers

Nothing like putting down the New York Timers. They don't care about New Yorkers or those in New Jersey. They're holier than all - kidding!

[Darth_Kitten]

36. Let's peel away a few more layers....

aha!! fraud and corruption. :(

That's why we "lost" :eyes: :thumbsup:

Also,it's red state repubs who have to change their act, the world is passing them by. :)

[Overseas]

38. Ridiculous Misrepresentation of Public Sentiments

PUBLIC OPINION is too often charicatured in media chatter. People are not nearly as conservative as the pundits try so hard to make us believe. This article from EXTRA! magazine gives some background on the question-- Are progressive opinions so much less popular than views from the center or the right?



It's true that there are issues where the progressive position is unpopular—for instance, polls by Gallup (5/04) and Harris (12/03) have found support for capital punishment hovering around 70 percent. But on a range of other issues, including corporate power, environmental protection, gun control and healthcare, a majority of Americans take a progressive stance.

Eighty-three percent of respondents told a February 2004 Harris poll that "big companies" have too much "power in influencing government policy, politicians and policymakers in Washington."

Fifty-five percent of respondents told Gallup (3/04) that the U.S. was doing "too little" to protect the environment; and 53 percent told another Gallup poll (1/04) that gun control laws should be "more strict."

That Americans support tax cuts is a conservative article of faith and a common centerpiece for Republican campaigns. But when ABC/Washington Post poll asked (10/03), "Which of these do you think is more important: providing healthcare coverage for all Americans, even if it means raising taxes, OR holding down taxes, even if it means some Americans do not have healthcare coverage?" The progressive "coverage for all" view received 79 percent support, overwhelming the conservative "lower taxes" position.

Full Story this is a SIDEBAR within:
http://www.fair.org/extra/0409/not-a-leftist.html

[Igel]

39. How's this for unbigoted?

After the McVeigh bombing--no Xtian I've ever talked to defended it, or even said "the US had it coming"--Xtian jokes were all the rage among the grad students in my dept. One of the students was evangelical. After listening, quietly, when a bunch of students were around dissing all Xtians, she finally burst out crying and ran from the room.

Not one student followed her (I didn't know her well, and I had class to get to). They made fun of her. And proudly wore their liberal Democrat labels, thinking Clinton had wimped and gone conservative.

A year or so later, in a medieval literature class her Bible knowledge (esp. in the language under discussion) made her the only one that could make sense of the texts. She even outdid the professor. Some of these "sensitive souls" ran to her for help in their term-papers; she did. The following term, they were back to ridiculing Xtians in her presence, calling them stupid.

Khobar Towers, embassy explosions, Cole ... the students went out of their way to avoid saying a single bad thing about Islam or Muslims. In fact, they tried to imply the US had it coming, and went out of their way to reach out to Muslims who were besieged by the incredible amount of hate towards Muslims on campus. (Er, actually, there wasn't any.)

I have to assume that she'd be a Bush voter. In her experience, liberal Democrats are bigoted, hypocritical, and overall hateful. *That* is the kind of behavior that these article snips are referring to.