Is Islam Endangering 'Europeanness?'

[Moloch]

Dec. 7, 2004 — It was not what she said, but the way she looked and her manner of dress that had the crowd hooting and jeering as she addressed a conference in Paris last year.

When Salma Yaqoob, a 32-year-old British Muslim activist, took the stand at the November 2003 European Social Forum, she was taken aback by the ruckus.

As chairwoman of the Stop the War Coalition in Birmingham, England, Yaqoob was in Paris to talk about the backlash against British Muslims sparked off by the war on terror during a session titled "Dimensions of Islam." But it was her veil, or hijab, that turned into the subject of an acrimonious dispute.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=289575&page=1

[Hosnon]

1. I really hope that the good side of Islam gains a voice. They need

to come out hard against those that pervert the religion.

[Moderator]

2. This is not breaking news

[fshrink]

3. And why is it

that we never hear about those women and men who belong to a ME country and are not muslim believers? These are my sisters and brothers. They consistently get the raw end of any deal available. They're talked for on daily basis while their voice is never even heard. And they are not helped by these maneuvers equating ME with islam.
As to europeanness, it doesn't mean jack. Europe is the ultimate melting pot, and has been so for the last 10,000 years at least. So what's the point here?

[Name removed]

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[muriel_volestrangler]

11. The point may be how much cultures should affect each other

At the heart of Europe's rising Islamophobia is the debate between integration and multiculturalism.

While countries such as the United States, Britain and Canada have rejected the social "melting pot" model for a "salad bowl" or "mosaic" metaphor, Fekete says the notion of multiculturalism in Western Europe is in jeopardy.

"Political parties have been introducing new 'integration measures,' and these enter into the highly public discourse about the limits of cultural diversity and a European fixation with social homogeneity that eschews pluralism," she said. "And the underlying theme is this is based on the Muslim community."

Noting that integration "is a two-way street," Fekete warns that by denying Muslim immigrants citizenship rights, European governments risk further alienating the community.

Now, personally I think the US is still using the "melting pot" model - as far as immigration goes, anyway. Immigrants to the US nearly always settle into western consumerism, joining the vast majority of people already there. But I wouldn't call Europe "the ultimate melting pot" - look, for instance, at how many languages have remained, in comparison to the spread of Arabic across all of North Africa and the Arabian Peninsula. And it's managed to come up with some fundamental divisions within itself - religion (Orthodox v. Catholic v. Protestant), political (capitalism v. communism).

Should a country make accomodations for an incoming culture - or is it entirely up to the immigrants to adapt as much as necessary to the existing customs?

The British government has proposed a law against inciting religious hatred, similar to the existing one against racial hatred. This is generally agreed to be to stop anti-Muslim rants (there is an existing law of blasphemy, which has been used about once in the past century, which makes insulting the Christian god an offence) such as those from the 'British National Party'. But there are questions whether this would make general argument against the religious ideas illegal itself (if you call the basis of a religion absurd, and its followers fools, are you inciting hatred of them, or just criticising them in the same way you would a political party?).

I think the headline ABC used doesn't fit well with the article. I agree 'europeanness' dosn't mean too much (they did at least use quotes around it). The argument of some is that Islam doesn't fit with various national ideals in Europe - secularism in public schools in France, criticism by satire and ridicule in the UK, or by shocking in the Netherlands. The article is really about the Islamophobic reaction rather than the 'Islamic threat'.

Personally, I think the customs of fundamental Muslims can be coped with, without needing new laws, just as those of fundamental Christians have been. The disadvantage the Muslims have now is that they typically look a little different (and probably dress differently), so it's easier for them to be singled out.

[SweetLeftFoot]

13. Religious Hatred laws

You wrote - "The British government has proposed a law against inciting religious hatred, similar to the existing one against racial hatred."

These laws already exist in parts of Britain. Scotland has them and whenever Rangers play Celtic, people are arrested under them.

And while Northern ireland is part of Britain in name only, it too (for very good reasons) has sectarian related laws.

[muriel_volestrangler]

19. Fair enough - I should have said England and Wales

Having just written a section in Demopedia on 'Britain', and the differences and history of the component nations, I definitely shouldn't have made the mistake of blanketing the whole country with the English laws.

[SweetLeftFoot]

20. Too true

The law varies quite widely across Britain. In Scotland, crminal trials can have three verdicts and involve a jury of 16.

[SweetLeftFoot]

12. I would disagree

Europe is the birthplace of nationalism and its associated hatreds. far from being a melting pot, Europe has been the place where reaction (usually violent) to the "other" has been most pronounced.

[sweetheart]

34. Perhaps its the frequency of relocation

One distinct think that i think makes the USA very different than
europe is that people re-locate a lot. It is not uncommon to find
entire cities where most people have moved in from elsewhere. This
i find in contrast to parts of europe where this mobile population
is very small. In scotland, the central belt has seen most
immigration, and has the issues of race and religious tensions that
are nonexistant in parts of the highlands where hardly any incomers
wind up.

I find that the longer a population is set without mixing, the more
likely it is to be suspicious and rejecting of incomers for whatever
reason... be it "white settlers" from england, to dark skinned types
and peoples who are of very different religions and cultures.

It seems, given a limited space, that there is a limit to
multiculturalism, and that as the UK immigration folks and the
scottish executive seek to stimulate scottish immigration, that
they should selectively open the doors more widely to similar
cultures, so that the long term stress of integration works.

Trying to mix the oil and water cultures of turkish islam with
the white prodestant cultures is going to be tough unless neither
group has a plurality in the community. Rather this is not the
case, and at least needs a large enough population center where
enough comings and goings stop the culture from singling out
immigrants.

[RedCheckShirt]

5. The white supremacists had better realize

that demographics are against them. If they don't accept the reality of diversity, they will all wind up like Theo Van Gogh.

[Name removed]

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[RedCheckShirt]

7. Then why do you think he was killed?

[Moloch]

9. He was killed because he stood up and said something

about the dehumanizing way women are treated in muslim countries.

What a bigot.

[SweetLeftFoot]

14. Certainly

He used to make appalling jokes about the Holocaust when anti-semitism was the big PC no-go area and he didn't get killed by the JDL.

[RedCheckShirt]

16. "he stood up and said something

about the dehumanizing way women are treated in muslim countries."

And what gives you the right to criticize another culture? How can people in a country that elected Chimpy president criticize anyone else's culture?

[muriel_volestrangler]

17. Everyone has the right to criticize

and people have the right to criticize them back - or boycott them. That doesn't justify violence against them, not matter how much of a 'lesson' you want taught to white supremicists.

[RedCheckShirt]

25. I am not advocating violence

I am merely saying that, when we refuse to build a peaceful multi-cultural society in which diversity can thrive, unfortunate incidents like this will happen.

[Name removed]

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[RedCheckShirt]

30. I get the impression that you are hostile to mulitculturalism

[hollowdweller]

36. Being against religious nuts killing people is not being hostile to it

it's about being FOR the coexsistance. If a country is having problems with a certain group of people immigrating and not sharing the tolerant values of a civil society I think they ought to have every right to cut off the flow of these people into their society.

[RedCheckShirt]

37. "If a country is having problems with a certain group of people ..."

It sounds to me like you are advocating racial profiling. I am totally against that.

[Moloch]

22. And I do criticize Chimpy and the people that voted for him...

constantly, as I'm sure many, many people in Muslim countries do.

[Name removed]

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[Trajan]

31. What ? ...

WHO needs a 'right' to speak out against injustice ? ...

ALL we need is a MOUTH ....

I am free to criticise ANY and EVERY damned foolish inhumanity and slight as I damn well please .... You are free to criticise ME for this, if you wish ....

THATS how it works: we open our mouths and speak ... who can stop that ? ...

WHO would WANT to ? ... You ?

[RedCheckShirt]

38. "I am free to criticise...."

But you should not be free to engage in hate speech. I believe Canada has passed laws against this and I think the United States should too.

It appears to me that some people on this board are expressing hatred of a group of people because of their religion and I do not think that should be allowed.

[Trajan]

39. FUCK Islam ....

FUCK Judaism ...

And FUCK Christianity ....

All of them foment hatred and inhumanities ....

I will never allow someone to STOP me from stating my opinions about the abrahamic faiths ...

[Name removed]

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[RedCheckShirt]

15. "Do you think those who defame Islam should be executed?"

Let's just say that there are a lot of thoughtful, concerned people in Europe who are working to establish a peaceful, multi-cultural, diverse society. Theo Van Gogh was not one of those people and it was his downfall.

Let that be a lesson to the White Supremacists.

[Blue_Tires]

21. so you're actually saying

that Van Gogh 'got what was coming to him?'

[RedCheckShirt]

26. No one "deserves" what Van Gogh got

but if we do not work diligently to transform society into something more peaceful and diverse, this kind of thing will continue to happen.

The only alternative would be to build apartheid walls like Israel and I don't think anyone wants that.

[Name removed]

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[Trajan]

32. This kind of advocation of murder ....

as a means to achieve political OR ecclesiastical goals is immoral ....

I am outraged by anyone who would support such an act ....

[bemildred]

8. Is ABC news losing it's marbles?

Nothing quite like a bit of mindless fear-mongering.

[neweurope]

18. It's true that in Europe we all of a sudden discover that we have

problems with our Muslim minorities. All of a sudden we also discover a "European culture", whatever that is supposed to mean, and we're being told that we have do "defend" that. Instead of seeing the people that grew up alongside us as friends we see big differences and hardening fronts all of a sudden.

And while politicians of all parties demand that Muslim's "integrate better" they take away money for integration - language courses, special kindergarten groups and so on. The same people who imported cheap labor from Turkey and refused to spend any money on their integration way back "because they will all go back to Turkey anyway" now shout the loudest that the Turks do not want to integrate.

It's an end time-feeling all over the world right now, I'm afraid, and it was and is being sponsored by your government, I'm sorry to say. The Bushistas have started something that spirals all of us further and further down - the road to loss of civil rights, to civil war and finally to nuclear war.

[bemildred]

23. One can easily assess one's leaders simply by observing

whether they engage in this sort of xenophobic race-baiting
or not. If a country fails to dispose of the ones that do, it in
some sense "deserves" the chaos sure to ensue. I certainly wish
you better luck with it than we are having here these days.

[neweurope]

24. Thanks, bemildred, and I wish you luck also.

We'll all of us need a hell of a lot of luck. And strength.

[Trajan]

33. As an atheist ....

I like to think anyone is free to wear whatever clothes they want .... I am not 'incited' by clothing, but by inhumane actions of philosophies ....

It is obvious that ANTI muslim fervor is ascendant in this 'War on Terror' world, and, rightly or wrongly, a reaction to the actions of a few extremist factions in the Islamic sphere .... Those sporting Islamic dress could easily be swept up in this passion, and insulted, or worse ....

Is it RIGHT to condemn all muslims for the terror of a few ? .. of course not ....

Is it RIGHT to support extremist muslims who commit acts of terror against innocents ? ... of course NOT ....

Is it RIGHT to smash into sovereign nations in anger, using an overwhelming war machine to seek vengeance agains native populations in response to that extremism ? ... of course NOT ...

I would like to think that ALL men can live in peace and harmony, seseking to alleviate suffering for ALL ... As a Humanist: I would hope that ALL would seek that end .....

Yet none seem to really want to: christian or muslim or jew ....

Many seem content to demand others adhere to THEIR creed, or suffer .... There is no act too 'horrible' when the targets of religious hatred are depicted as apostate, or heterodox, or blasphemous ....

Unfortunately: We cannot escape this madness .... We can only try to change it in the face of increasing piety and theological stridency .... perhaps a fool's errand ....

[Igel]

35. I'd agree with the article, to a large extent.

It doesn't matter if the culture that's being affected is a colonizer or not. Otherwise, certainly we'd be against Slavic, Mexican, Arabic, N. Indian, Bantu, and Andean cultures (for the most part). This kind of mixing has happened for millennia; and any group that doesn't stand up for its culture doesn't deserve to be an identifiable group.

The idea that there's not an American culture is ludicrous, but widespread (I think of it as "the fish doesn't know he's in water" effect). Culture isn't clothes, food, or footwear. It's a set of common values and goals, what's considered acceptable, and how individuals and groups interact that counts. I've seen arch-feminists, Baptist missionaries, social anarchists, and grad students get along fine when in a foreign culture--they had more uniting them than dividing them.

If we think that when Americans settle in Nigeria or Brazil they should try to adopt local customs (to the extent their moral compass allows them), we'd have to say the same thing about Muslims. You shouldn't immigrate and act on the belief that your culture is superior. The only fundamentalist Muslim I've had to deal with (on a committee) assumed that we knew his culture without his saying a word, and was pissed off when we didn't revise the committee's schedule, procedures, and attitudes to comport with his beliefs. I hope he's not representative, but a small percentage of such people would prove highly problematic.