why was the "dealing with libertarians" thread locked?

[sweetheart]

As a libertarian, i would hope that the right to free speech be respected above political differences... ESPECIALLY as a libertarian... and i'm disappointed that we can't discuss getting along without censorship.

Please unlock that thread and let people vent... the paranoia about libertarians is mostly ignorance and stereotyping as is typical of divisiveness in this republican age of darkness. Voltaire would ask that you let us all speak freely. Censorship of individual trolls is another thing... but to punish the entire forum sadly reinforces the new future that the first amendment is only in force in our hearts.

[saline]

1. I was wondering my self...

...and totally agree, it was a good discussion and sweetheart had just brought up some awesome sauce points.

[peacetalksforall]

2. Yes, for me it's ignorance....

I can't get my arms around what a Libertarian is...the ones that claim they are Libertarian border on being cruel in regard to helping people who need help. They claim they don't want the government doing anything to help.

The ones I know are pompous about their successes and their criticisms of the lesser advantaged. I don't understand. I want to.

Libertarians are supposed to want less government. I always thought the people were the government. We are it and it is us. It's supposed to be the organizational arm of our rights. Except we've have representatives who came up with good programs and no ending dates. Then, we hire people to administrate and they became bureacratic.

It's the representatives and administrators and human nature and we need to stay on top of it.

There are humans who are blood suckers and there are people who have crummy things happen to them through little fault of their own. They both need attention. If we practiced what we preach about religion, we'd take care of the problem - brother helping brother - but we're hypocrites, so we have to organize it bureacratically. We can't just abandon our own.

So who is the government in the eyes of a Libertarian. I need to understand Libertarians. They don't have much respect from me based on the ones I've heard rant.

[sweetheart]

8. small hearted people do not know liberty

Methinks personal liberty is a sort of maturation process in a human being. In its infancy, it is like puberty with a teenager... "Get out of my life mom." "You do not know what's best for me." "I'm not hurting you... let me live my life and you live yours."

This matures in to realizing that you never have liberty if there is no community. A mature libertarian certainly bears the cross of their own indivdiual liberty, but also sees that the greater web of society around them needs nurturing... much like a mature adult in the life-growth metaphor.

All of government comes from the ethical and moral development of the individuals in society... that if we were all mature and well educated, the lower functions of society (polcing violence, etc.) would become unnecessary. A wise libertarian sees and supports the full range of developmental human rights as recognized by nations more evolved than the US http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html .

I challenge you to read those human rights and to consider a libertarian that supports those rights for you and all citizens of the earth... that the way to achieve them is not to "FORCE" people, but rather to lead them. I don't know if you have ever hearded cats before, but the analogy is relevant.... cats will come if they want... people who realize that a healthy society is in their own best interest will support civility.

I apologize for the puberty-libertarians you have encountered, but i assure you that is not representative. The wisest people i know, including enlightened saints are libertarian by the very nature that only through individual liberty does the basic component of society achieve "the enlightenment" upon which all of liberalism rests.

A liberal that attacks libertarianism is confused by stereotypes, as in truth, they are one and the same.

[saline]

10. I know, I think...

I personally love the idea of a libertarian stance on social issues, just let me do my thing as long as it doesn't interfere with others doing their thing. But that certainly doesn't preclude helping people. However because I feel the need to help people I take issue with their economic policies. The government needs money to help and I really don't want to spend lots of time thinking about how to do it. I want to pay someone else to do it, yay taxes, yay government.

[sweetheart]

13. economic libertarianism

I used to run a business in NYC employing some 10's of people. I formed it by working 20 hours a day for a year, working a day job at sun microsystems as a technical project leader, and at night writing our first software release which we sold to an investment bank in manhattan. Then i rented a flat in manhattan and bunked in a tiny loft making sure to get up early before the employees arrived and filled the entire place with the snap of software development. After an exhasting time, we finally rented office space at 17 state street (That curved building at the end of manhattan). During this time, i took a tiny (less than minimum wage) salary out of the business that it survive... and always made sure the payroll was met by sweating it out doing the sales.

During this time, my experience with the government tax authorities was that they were busy trying to fuck my business for all they could get... franchise tax, city tax, disability, blah blah, FICA withholding... and in complying with the law of the land, it drained off precious capital we were using to build up our self-started operation. Needless to say, having never myself drawn any social services in manhattan, i was not overly pleased at the presumptive tax authorities putting the squeeze on an already tight situation. I finally sold the business for "paper millions" to a venture capitalist that proceeded to trash the business and i lost everything i worked years for... i accept that that was my own fault... i got paid less than minimum wage for years while my employees did pretty well themselves jumping ship to investment banks for pay raises after it all went down.

For my work creating 10's of jobs in manhattan, i earned dick and still receive tax interrogation notices from NY and california even though i sold it... they never knew and keep sending me reminders to pay long forgotten tax claims they imagine exist from some big fat corp... the burden that the state put on my business was inappropriate and overbearing. I don't know about the "big picture"... but too much taxation is a reality for the self-starting entrepreneur.

[Solon]

20. I disagree

As someone who owned a failed business myself, I can understand the frustration. However I take note of the following statement: "Needless to say, having never myself drawn any social services in manhattan...". Now the reason I point this out is that this statement is not true. You benefit from both social and infastructure services from the government EVERY DAY, the roads, electricity, phone, police and fire protection, water utilities, etc. are all provided, at least in part, by the various governments in which you reside or do business in. Somebody has to pay for it, and the government should not play favorites for who pays. You claim that you earned "dick" and you imply that the government is partly to blame. I would point out that the government was the sole reason you were able to even start a business, but doesn't guarantee it will be successful. The idea that its every person for him/herself is a lie, no one can do what you did alone. No one can pull themselves up by their own bootstaps, those who claim to always had some type of help, whether a friend, family member, or even a government agency, everyone has to rely on someone else in order to survive and thrive. That is the general problem I have with Libertarians, its the fact that most of them are Utopians, as in they believe in something that is totally unattainable in the real world, at least without drastic consequences for everyone.

[sweetheart]

21. no argument on that

it is coming on a decade since then, and with the value of hindsight, i agree with you, and have argued that point exactly on this site... but with the following caveat.

The early stages of business formation are risky enough... and if one succeeds, it is a win win win win all around for jobs, the community, the entrepreneur and the government... so it would be wise to minimize the negative affects of government on business. In this regard, i was not overly impressed with the state franchise tax, which i believe should be graded to be very small for the first few years a business is trading. Also, the state unemployment tax was really a burden considering that the employees of the business NEVER ever claimed such benefits... so that was pure transfer... one we could ill afford in those early days. The cost overheads i am on to are ones that needlessly kill businesses that stand to benefit the city greatly by their success...

I would never form a business in New york again, having spent over a decade running them... it is simply too heavy a burden to bear... better to abscond to another state and simply sell the products in NYC without the crushing burden of high salaries and what amounts to, when all the taxes are included in the package.. 50% tax. A true libertarian would say that my business was not one that should have succeeded, and that the tax burden weeded out a weak member of the heard... a more optomistic person might say that it was a sad loss that could have employed hundreds of new yorkers in a global trading business benefitting the city to tunes of millions.

It is those small invisible businesses unlisted on any market that are the heart of the economy... and crushing them at birth is hardly intelligent policy, no matter what greaat social overheads claim propriety.

I recently had a chat with 2 swedish business owners who suggested that sweden was the wrong place to form a business for obvious tax burden reasons... that the tax laws did not descriminate on when a company was small and fragile like a greenhouse seedling... much more susceptible to the elements than a mature tree.

[leftyandproud]

18. well, being related to a libertarian...

I can tell you, they DO NOT want people to be hurt. My little 23 year old sis became is a hardcore libertarian last year--She makes about $25k and gives $3k away to state and local charities every year. She has always been giving, and she claims she would give more if the she could afford it. She is studying to become a nurse and paying her way through school--very independant...ANYWAY...Essentially, the libertarian idea is...when you get government out of the way, cut taxes 98% on everyone who works, get rid of 90% of the regulations, philanthropy and all sorts of charitable contributions will boom, replacing the government run welfare programs, and a pure free market will make it easier to find work.

This is what they think...in principle, sounds fine, but we know it won't work. I just can't agree with these ideas. I don't think private donations can EVER replace government programs...but I still respect the argument. Partisans on both sides have my respect...as long as they aren't afraid to come out and openly say what they mean and mean what they say. As long as they can defend their views without resorting to name calling or mindless slogans (as most pukes end up doing), they have my respect. And when politicians on both sides hide their views behind a 'moderate' label, simply to get elected, I get pissed. I say come out...be honest...be open about your beliefs on government...don't be ashamed of them...Right or wrong...The people will reward your honesty.

edit--typos

[Terwilliger]

3. Libertarians are Republicans without the class

savvy?

[drdigi420]

7. Not really

Most Libertarians are more like Democrats when it comes to civil rights and freedom. Hard-core extremist Libertarians are for zero government, but they do not represent the whole, or even the majority.

I believe that the govt should protect us from corporate tyranny while preserving our individual rights, especially the rights to ingest whatever substance or medication we see fit. As long as we are not misled by the advertisers of such products.

I believe in laws to force companies to label products, be responsible if those products are falsely represented, and have a certain level of safeness, or at least proper labeling when dangerous, such as "warning, this gun contains projectiles with high-speed potential and can cause death or serious injury" or "warning, this tv contains no truth whatsoever, please READ your news".

I believe in a strong armed forces, but not one with so much waste and would not use it except in immediate defense of our nation.

I believe in a very strong public education system. One that truly leaves no child behind, one that is not influenced at all by religion of any kind. One that is safe, well-funded, and teaches more than just math and reading, but extends to driving skills, parenting skills, and how to have sex safely.

I consider myself an Independant, but I am a temporary Democrat, and do believe I could become permanent, but only if the party grows a spine and truly opposes the destruction of our country by the Republicans, instead of being "me too, just not as much". Democrats need to embrace opposition to the drug war as one of the primary platform pieces. The drug war affects civil rights, race relations, education, poverty, and many other issues that are important to Democrats. It should be policy to take on teh pharmacuetical companies (especially Bush Sr's Eli Lilly, which makes Prozac and Marinol, main reasons for the BFEE's resistance to drug law reform)

I hope this clears up the myths about Libertarians some.

[Terwilliger]

9. You haven't listened to Harry Browne lately

Hard-core extremist Libertarians are for zero government, but they do not represent the whole, or even the majority.

I don't know where you get that digi...Libertarians will be the FIRST to tell you that certain taxes are not Constitutional, and the basic platform of the Libertarian party is to eliminate the social contract (other than "common defense")

OnEdit: if not, how do "L" Libertarians justify basic government services (post office, education, highways) when there is no mandate within the Constitution to offer these things and justify the taxation?

[drdigi420]

16. like i said

hard core extremists don't represent the majority viewpoint

[sweetheart]

11. do you mean "beyond class?"

If republicans saw all citizens as their own... all human beings.. "the flock" in the greater metaphorical sense... interesting way of putting it.

I once voted for reagan in 80 so it is fair to call me a repuke, but that was the last time i voted.... as since then, the whole political spectrum has been so distasteful that NO candidate or party really represented my real vote which was NON! none of the above...

You could easily say that libertarians are Democrats who do not recognize class distinctions... as if being republican or democrat only exists by identifying with the working class or the plantation owners.... penetrating insight terwilliger....

[Terwilliger]

12. small "l"

in fact, I usually have few problems with small-x ideologies and those who believe in them. Even republicans.

The big problems are the "D", "R", "G", "L"

Let's make an amalgam of the more American principles from all these parties and call it progressivism.

Libertarian ideology leaves out the social contract, and that's unacceptable. Common defense includes common purpose. common wealth, common security, common rights. For EVERYONE....and NOT DEFINED BY SOCIAL CLASS AND MONETARY STATION IN LIFE.

Time to overvalue life and undervalue things.

[sweetheart]

19. what about left libertarianism

You and i agree, based on your writing... but perhaps i am not a true libertarian as i value the social contract of universal human rights along with individual liberty and do not see them in conflict.

Why must they be in conflict? We are not. As a buddhist, i agree... material issues are irrelevant, yet indeed, they are the chessboard on which egos play politics.

Do you not think that when all people have ALL the liberty they ever wanted, that the next step would not be for them to make a social contract that ALL peoples have theat liberty... and the progressive movement towards universal liberty and "the enlightenment"... on which all liberalism is founded. Without individual liberty, what is the enlightenment but empty words from centuries ago.

[Forkboy]

4. I dont think the author of thread was what he said he was

Your points were well stated though.Perhaps you can start another thread on the topic?

[saline]

5. I agree...

... about the author and his other 5 post henchman. Although I guess I'm not the one to talk about post count.

[Forkboy]

6. Dont worry

it's quality not quantity :)

Welcome to DU :toast:

[Heddi]

14. As a former mod

I know that we would typically lock threads that were created by people who have been subsiquently banned.

It seems that (when I looked) the author of the thread in question was tombstoned.

Therefore, his comments on the board, and the advice he wishes to receive are moot, since he's no longer a participating member of the board.

I believe in this instance you're free to re-open the topic for discussion by starting your own thread on the matter (but that may not be the case since I'm not modding this term)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

15. How

do you get tombstoned?

and what's to prevent a person from being born again with a new screen name

[Heddi]

17. you get tombstoned

for breaking the RULES of the site.

There's nothing preventing you from signing back on with a different user name, which many people do, but happily we have a very talented group of mods and admin who are quick to spot and remove blatant disruptors and 'zombies' (returned banned members)