Sometimes all the solutions are bad

[dsc]

In recent days we had two long, nasty threads about two pretty divisive issues. One was the 'new' all LGBT school in New York City and the other was about the wisdom of naming people who accuse people of rape. Like it or not there are valid points on both sides of this issue.

In regards the LGBT school, there are many valid reasons that LGBT students could and would need such a school in order to make it though high school. But, and equally valid, it is a manifestly dangerous power to give the government to have segregated public schools.

In the case of the alledged rape victims there are the very valid arguments that rape is both a stigmatized and uniquely personal crime. But, and equally valid, there are issues of perpetuating such stigma and putting defendents (some of whom are innocent) at a disadvantage.

In both cases I come down for the first positions for the present but think the future desired position is the second one. I think what often gets lost in the shuffle is the idea that one can have a different view as to the proper public policy but have good reasons for that difference. Probably because some of the advocates for the second argumenats so manifestly don't have good motives.

I guess my point is that we need to not immediately jump to conclusions about motives just because we don't like the positions.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

1. I don't want you to think you are talking to a wall

I read your post.

In the GLBT school, I will at least give credit for public policy being raised. In the rape threads, public policy cannot even be discussed because there is too much resistance to even admitting there is a problem.

You know me. YOu know my posts. You KNOW my long threads last Novenmber about the number of people in prison who are innocent. You KNOW I advocate for the underdog. But the level of fear by men simply to having the word no defined is simply IRRATIONAL.

No one should have to live with the ill effects of a crime they did not commit.

I am old school. It's better to let 100 guilty people walk than to punish an innocent person but in reality the level of conviction for rape is far below all other crimes.

I am against bandaid approaches to bigotry, homophobia and sexism.

I personally would rather people be educated...but how can we begin educating when we can't even get to a baseline?

[dsc]

5. Thanks

and you have many valid points. I vacillate on the naming issue as I know that the Shephard case is what finally prompted me to tell my family that I had been bashed. I had hoped that when those young women had come forward after being kidnapped and raped that maybe things were turning. Then this case comes up and that hope went out the window. This is a tough nut to crack and there is no good solution that I can see. The best of bad is still bad.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

7. I might add

I'm not a big fan of having a person live FOREVER with the consequences of what they did do provided they show remorse, turn their life around, demonstrate that they can be counted on to do the right thing in the future and vow to correct their direction.

To that end I think our criminal justice system animalizes people and then turns them loose without support thus guaranteeing their failure rather than arming them ( and as a result society) against failure.

[dsc]

8. I mostly agree

but somethings do deserve life. I would certainly give life to murderers and would strongly consider it for both repeat rapists and repeat molesters of children. Some crimes are that bad. But no matter if we are letting them out or not we need to make prison into a training ground for life and not a training ground for crime.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

9. I'm right there with you

:thumbsup:

[David Zephyr]

2. The LGBT High School is a Last Straw to Protect Children.

In a perfect world it wouldn't be necessary, but I'll always err on the side of making a child feel immediately safe in school over an esoteric ideal of "the perfect world."

I agree with what NSMA wrote above: "I personally would rather people be educated...but how can we begin educating when we can't even get to a baseline?"

A child's safety comes first. No kid should live in continual fear in a public school.

Thanks for your thread.

[w4rma]

3. Segregation is a slippery slope policy (n/t)

[dsc]

4. and I agree with both of you

but these solutions are still unsatisfying. I literally dreaded going to school from 7-10th grades. So I really do know the need. But if I am say 65 and we still have that need I am going to be very sad indeed.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

6. I hate the use of the term slippery slope because it has people

conceptualize real life consequences of creating a linguistic reality for another.

"Saying no kid should live in fear of....." (blank) justifies it for every fear, rational or not. Some fears are rational, some are not. Flat out, the cost must outweigh the benefit to discrimination but we aren't the voice being heard on that one and even we can't agree about it.

The term "special rights" (for ANY situation designed to correct of a demonstrable harm to a group) is bandied about here as much as anywhere on the internet. Nobody ever stops to consider that those special rights may be an insurance and a correction.

We think we are witnessing a "backlash" and then a "backlash to the backlash" but we never stop to consider that we are riding a concept of "backlash" (sold to us by the same mechanism that sold us our soft drinks - repetition ) like a rollercoaster, but never visualizing ourselves as the ride operator.