Dead Brit scientist was found with "4 electrocardiogram pads" on chest

[Zan_of_Texas]

Is this a standard procedure when you're committing suicide nowadays? ?????????

Blair to face Hutton inquiry

BBC

The judge investigating the events surrounding the death of weapons expert Dr David Kelly has opened his inquiry and confirmed he intends to call Tony Blair as a witness. Lord Hutton began by telling a packed court room that the inquiry had been prompted by a "very tragic death" and that it would be fitting to stand for a minute's silence.

The senior judge spent the first 35 minutes of the session explaining how he will conduct the inquiry and who he will call to give evidence, including the prime minister, the Defence Secretary Geoff Hoon, BBC journalist Andrew Gilligan and Dr Kelly's widow. ...

He also revealed that Dr Kelly's body had been found with four electrocardiogram pads on his chest - one of the issues he wished to resolve.

Dr Kelly had a coronary artery disease which may have sped up his death though not caused it, the pathologist reported.

more:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3115243.stm

[Rose Siding]

1. What are those pads used for?

I'm unfamiliar with their purpose.

[w13rd0]

Deliver shocks to keep the heart pumping...

...or perhaps as a means to intimidate or even torture someone with a known heart condition. It would be incredibly sloppy of an assassin to leave the fargin pads on the victim though...

This is yet one more spooky footnote to this whole issue...

[grasswire]

5. no

These are not the items that deliver electric shock.

Those are called "paddles" and they are part of a defibrillator.

These pads are small sticky things attached by wires to an EKG machine or cardiac monitor.

[Junkdrawer]

7. Would there be any indication if they were used to send rather than...

receive electricity?

[FlaGranny]

15. I doubt that, but my first thought on reading

this was that somebody was doing an EKG on him so that they would know when he was dead. It would have been extremely stupid to leave the things in place. When you do remove them, they would leave a trace and you would need to clean up with alcohol to remove the trace. Maybe they didn't have time?

Edit type in subject

[Junkdrawer]

22. Suppose someone wanted to frighten him. They call him away...

from home with a "if you don't come, we'll get your family" type call. They start to grill him when he drops over with a coronary. A medic comes, but is not successful. So they slash his wrists and CPR the blood out to make it look like a suicide.

On edit:
Why did they leave the pads? Well, suppose all the revival stuff created quite a site with footprints everywhere. They redress him and move the body before they fake the suicide - forgetting to remove the pads. And remember this was all emergency planning - they didn't intend to off him at that time.

And for you coincidence theorists, I'm not saying this had to happen, but that perhaps it (or something like it) should be ruled out in a thorough investigation.

[FlaGranny]

24. Well, to get really tinfoil here, how about

they accost him on his walk, threaten to kill his family, and advise him to take his own life and the family will be spared. They bring along a portable EKG machine so they'll know when he's dead - to make sure no one finds him still alive to save him. Sounds like a good murder mystery novel.

[Junkdrawer]

25. Life is stanger than fiction. See my edits on my previous post...

I'm leaning towards a "holy shit, he's dead, now what do we do" scenario.

[DagmarK]

27. I think you can tell when someone is DEAD.........

*

[FlaGranny]

36. Yes, you sure can, but

I'm writing a murder mystery here. ;-) And does everyone know how to check for pinpoint pupils or for a pulse? A weak heartbeat cannot always be felt as a pulse. The breath can stop and the heart can go on for a while. The heart and the breathing can both stop and the person can live on for a few minutes. The only true death is brain death, but making sure the heart has really stopped is better done with an EKG than feeling for the pulse. Maybe they should have brought a stethoscope.

[short bus president]

30. you don't need an ECG

to know when someone's dead. To monitor their heartrate during "vigorous activity," maybe, but not to assess death.

[DagmarK]

26. I hope someone checks out the BRANDS of pads used......

just basic forensic follow-up.

Are they the ones the local medics use? Or a particular hospital? Or from another country, perhaps?

Oh, where is Sherlock Holmes when we need him?!

[Junkdrawer]

32. PS. Why slashed wrists? Well, if you shoot a dead body, the wound..

would show the heart stopped beating before you shot him. Same with poison. Come to think of it, there are few "suicide" scenarios that would work with a dead body.

[Brian Sweat]

29. Even if you removed them

they would leave behind distinct signs that they were there. Nothing to be gained from removing them.

[jpak]

48. Could he have been rigged for a Holter (sic?) monitor???

These are "walkman"-like recording ECG's. They are used to continuously record cardiac activity over several days.

The electrodes are placed on the abdomen and the recorder can be attached to a belt or placed in a pants pocket.

I believe these rigs have a lot more than 4 electrodes though....

On edit - should have read through all the posts before replying!!!

[fob]

4. See Ashcroft, Torture, Gitmo

nt

[liberalnurse]

19. No....They record

cardiac depolarization......they track the heart beats only...Just a tool.....

They were propably placed on at the scene to confirm death.......or to affirm cardiac activity and to treat as indicated .....


Relax

[grasswire]

38. no, read back

The article says the pads were on the body when it was found.

So they weren't affixed by medical personnel responding.

[grasswire]

2. say what???

One would think this issue would have been resolved by the family at the start. Did he go to the doctor? If he didn't go to the doctor, where did the pads come from? And if he DID go to the doctor, why the hell weren't the pads removed? Standard procedure. He might get out with ONE pad still attached, but not four unless he ripped off the wires and left the office prematurely.

VERY SUSPICIOUS. How could this be ruled a suicide knowing this?

[grasswire]

3. the pads....

....stick to the skin and the wires are attached to them. They're very sticky. They're about 2 1/2 inches across.

[Loonman]

6. So why would he wander off

So why would he wander off(even though his wife said he took long walks, a lot) on a rainy night with no jacket and 4 sticky pads with wires stuck to his chest?

Something about this stinks to high heaven.

[grasswire]

10. there wouldn't be any wires attached

The wires are attached to the machine. The pads connect with them, but they just snap on.

[Loonman]

17. So, sans wires

So therefore, if a man was concerned about his heart condition, enough to still have the pads on after a check, why would he off himself?

[SoCalDem]

44. they look like this

[Enraged_Ape]

8. Maybe from a Holter monitor

A Holter monitor is a small, portable electrocardiogram that patients with abnormal heart rhythms (or suspected abnormal heart rhythms) wear for 24 hours or so. They are encouraged to go for their usual walks and other activities and to make a log of what they are doing and when they are doing it. Then the monitor is returned to the physician and a rhythm analyzer is able to see if there are, indeed, any problems that are showing up outside of the clinics.

I don't think this is a big deal. Maybe the guy thought he had heart problems.

[Brian Sweat]

11. That is certainly a reasonable explanation and the most likely,

but if it is the correct explanation, it should be easily confirmed.

[grasswire]

12. but if he was wearing a holter monitor....

....isn't that a pretty good idea that he wasn't planning on committing suicide?

And why would the monitor not be on his body too?

AND...if he was wearing a holter monitor, there would be a record of what his heart was doing when he died. Any murderer would have to take the monitor with him to hide evidence.

[Enraged_Ape]

13. Several reasons the monitor may have been missing

1) Maybe he was suicidal, said to heck with the monitor, and just didn't hook it up (in which case it would be at home) and didn't bother to pull the pads off.

2) Maybe the monitor was on him but got misplaced or just not reported. You know the kind of media we are dealing with.

3) Maybe somebody took it. I don't know how this guy's body was found. The monitor itself looks kind of like a Walkman.

[DagmarK]

33. But this is a guy who would leave a note.......

He just strikes me as someone who would let his wife know what the deal was...... He wasn't a "screw you world! I am outta here!" type. But that's just speculation.

And for that matter, seems he would have done or said something warm and kind to his family before carrying out a suicide.

He really cared about his family. Those are the kinds of people who do leave notes........

[punpirate]

46. Reported a few days ago that a note was found...

... but the content was not described.

Cheers.

[alaine]

53. I can see the assassins sitting around watching T.V. and

all of a sudden one of them goes "Oh SHIT, we forgot to leave the %$# note".

So they scramble around and get it together. I wish someone would do a graph on the fatality rate of people assoc., even loosley, with the BFEE. I bet their average life-expectancy is somewhat shorter than that of the general population.

[DagmarK]

31. if he was suicidal.....why would he care what his heart condition was?

I realize, of course, that the final act of suicide can be carried out without much forethought. But I should think a man with a family and a big conscience, if he were suicidal, wouldn't be doing heart maintenance stuff while he contemplated suicide for however many days or weeks.

Who knows.........

[knowledgeispower]

37. What if he had an ECG done that day or the day before?

And the doctor left the pads on? They can be quite painful to remove (since they pull off the chest hair), so they might have been left on so that they could come off in the shower or something like that?

[FlaGranny]

41. My husband shaves his chest if getting an EKG.

Also, if he's going to be in the hospital he shaves his arms too. It has saved him lots of pain removing tape and electrodes.

[Jaybird]

40. yes

my grandfather had a heart condition and i remember seeing him with

his shirt off when i was young. he had these little round pads stuck

to his chest.

i dont think this is anything at all.

[DagmarK]

9. So all the state's "theorizing" about "probably suicide, it seems"

seems a little mocked up to me.

That's nuts. His wife would know if he had a doctor's appt.....esp if he was going out for a walk, supposedly.

This stinks to high heavens. I feel silly even DEBATING whether it's fishy......

[KoKo]

14. Here's the info on a Holter Monitor:

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003877.htm


How the test is performed Return to top

Electrodes (small conducting patches) are placed on your chest and attached to a small recording monitor that you can
carry in a pocket or in a small pouch worn around your neck. The monitor is battery operated.

Your heart electrical activity is recorded (much like the recording of an ECG), usually for a 24-hour period while you keep
a diary of your activities. The recording is then analyzed, a report of the heart's activity is tabulated, and irregular heart
activity is correlated with your activity at the time.

It is very important that you accurately record your symptoms and activities so that the doctor can correlate them with
your Holter monitor findings.

How to prepare for the test Return to top

There is no special preparation for the test. The recording monitor will be started by the health care provider, and you will
be given instructions on how to replace electrodes should they become loosened. Instructions will also be given on how to
record activity for the diary.

Tell your doctor if you are allergic to any tape or other adhesives. Shower or bathe before you start the test -- you will not
be able to do so while you are wearing a Holter monitor.

How the test will feel Return to top

There is no discomfort associated with the test. Hair mayneed to be shaved from the chest for electrode placement. You
must keep the monitor close to the body, either in a pocket or in a pouch worn around the shoulder or neck.

Continue normal activities while wearing the monitor.

Why the test is performed Return to top

Holter monitoring is used to determine how the heart responds to normal activity. Other times Holter monitoring is used
include the following:

When given cardiac medication
After a heart attack
To diagnose an abnormal or dangerous heart rhythm

Normal Values Return to top

Normal variations in heart rate occur with activities. No significant alterations in the rhythm or ST elevations occur.

What abnormal results mean Return to top

Abnormal results may include various arrhythmias. ST segment changes (alterations in the wave form of the electrical
conduction pattern of the heart) may indicate that the heart is not receiving enough oxygen and may also correlate with
chest pain.

Additional conditions under which the test may be performed include the following:

Atrial fibrillation/flutter
Multifocal atrial tachycardia
Paroxysmal supraventricular tachycardia
Palpitations
Fainting (syncope)

What the risks are Return to top

There are no risks associated with the test. However, you should be sure not to let the monitor get wet.

Special considerations Return to top

Electrodes must be firmly attached to the chest to permit accurate recording of the heart's activity.

Avoid magnets, metal detectors, electric blankets, and high-voltage areas while wearing the device.

[KoKo]

21. Note that Holter's are only worn 24 hrs. & you can't get monitor wet!

So, he's being monitored for 24 hours when he decides to go for a walk in the rain with his monitor in his pocket or around his neck (where the article above says one usually carries the monitor.)

Sounds like he was having palpitations from the stress of all his troubles....and his doctor wanted to monitor him.

[DagmarK]

34. And if that is so......THAT DOCTOR heard about this.......

and any good doctor hearing about his patient -- having a current heart prob and being monitored -- would have called the authorities a.s.a.p. AND THE FAMILY. Seems he would hear on the news that Kelley was missing. And then hear that Kelley's body had been found. How could the doc not exclaim, "OMG, that's my patient! He was in my office for a heart monitor just that very morning! I wonder if his heart gave out and he is laying dead beside the road!"

Cause remember.....they didn't say anything about the slit wrists for a day or so...just that he was dead and they thought it might be suicide.

so......Watson......did he have a doctor call the police when the news came out? That's what I want to know!

[ewagner]

16. If it was a monitor

It should be quite easy to prove.

[Pastiche423]

28. Due to a heart condition

many years ago, I had to wear a Holter Monitor periodically. As has been said, the pads are placed on the chest by a doctor, followed by the wires that connect to the monitor. When the pads are removed by the doctor, a circle of sticky gunk for each pad remains. I had to rub my skin raw to remove said sticky gunk.

You are correct, it would be easy to prove - simply ask his doctor if he was wearing one. If he was wearing one, where are the monitor and wires?

I find it very strange that this was not mentioned when the news of his death was released. Moreover, if Kelly was going to commit suicide, why would he be concerned w/his ticker?

[KoKo]

18. Why is it "normal" for someone to remove watch & glasses before suicide?

Maybe the watch because of the method.......but why the glasses.

And, one doesn't walk around with cardio pads attached unless one is being monitored by a doctor.

Meaning his doctor had to be aware of his condition for him the have the pads. They aren't something one keeps in the medicine cabinet to attach when one feels like it.........very strange..............

A botched assassination attempt????

[Cassandra]

20. "A botched assassination attempt????"

He's dead, isn't he? That doesn't sound botched to me.

[grasswire]

23. if it was a holter monitor...

...where's the monitor?

At home? Or missing?

As a sideline, Norman Holter was quite a character. He used to create pieces of art by blowing up a charge of explosives under a big piece of metal. He lived in Helena, Montana and died in the 80s, I think it was. His wife Joan was left quite a wealthy woman because of this cardiac invention!

[DagmarK]

35. botched in the sense that it wasn't a very good coverup........

*

[alpizzy]

39. What was the cause of death exactly???

I don't really understand how you commit suicide while on a walk.
Do you take some kind of drug first?? Do you go somewhere secluded
to slit your wrists? I didn't hear anything about slit wrists. So how did he
off himself exactly??

[Junkdrawer]

42. Timeline..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3077059.stm

<snip>
1500 BST: Dr Kelly leaves his house in Oxfordshire, saying he is going for a walk. Dr Kelly's family contact police at 2345 BST when he does not return.
0900 BST, 18 July: Thames Valley Police make a public appeal for helping in tracing Dr Kelly.

1055 BST: Police investigating Dr Kelly's disappearance say they have discovered a body, later it is identified as Dr Kelly's.

1430 BST: Downing Street says an independent judicial inquiry will be held into the circumstances of Dr Kelly's death.

19 July: A post-mortem on Dr Kelly concludes that his cause of death was haemorrhaging from a wound to his left wrist.
<snip>

[alpizzy]

43. Thank you....

I hadn't heard that.

[SoCalDem]

45. an EIGHT HOUR "walk"?????

If my husband said he was going for a walk at 3 pm....when dinner time rolled around and he did not return, I would be on the phone to the police THEN....not at almost MIDNIGHT.....


Something's NOT right here:(

[Junkdrawer]

49. My theory is on Posts 22 & 32...

:tinfoilhat: It's just stupid enough to be true.

[musiclawyer]

47. Any shrink will tell you....

that people who blow whistles have a clear conscience, and although perhaps dismayed at having had to blow the whistle HARDLY EVER KILL THEMSELVES. Personally you will never convince me that the Minnesota Senator went down by accident.

[Zan_of_Texas]

50. and that's one of the reasons

I brought this up. Thanks for all your musings and hypotheticals, and explanations of the possibilities around the pads.

I spent several weeks looking into Cliff Baxter's death. And, several weeks looking into the crash of Wellstone's plane, although that was from a distance.

In both cases, there are bunches of things that just stick out, don't add up. Plus, there's the immediate spin and immediate cover-up feel to both of those.

In cases like this, I try to proceed as if very little government officials say is to be believed on its face. Just go with what you KNOW.

1. We KNOW this scientist probably gave info to the BBC (there is a tape that purportedly is him doing that).

2. We KNOW the pressure all around him was increasing. A Prime Minister's stature was at risk.

3. We KNOW the death was ruled a suicide almost at the very same time the body was officially identified.

Number 3 really bothers me. If he committed suicide, fine, let there be a full and complete investigation, and THEN announce your findings. But, I believe he went missing on Thursday, body was found Friday morning, and identified officially on Saturday, and on that day it was declared a suicide. That is not long enough to do a complete investigation. How many people could you call and interview in that time? How much lab work could be completed? How many medical records could be subpoenaed and reviewed?

I just don't like it.

[otohara]

51. Remember That Guy In CO Who Cut Off His Arm????

I thought It was odd, that cutting one wrist would do the trick. They didn't say the pain killers were the cause of death, that would make sense to me -

It would seem to me to cut one wrist, would take a very long time to bleed to death. Unless he practically hacked off his hand,

but then think about it, that kid in Colorado who cut off his arm, and lived though a horrible ordeal of dehydration, no food for days, pain and loss of blood

[Ouabache]

52. Maybe the pads are message from him as to who the killer is & why?

Maybe he is sending a message with the pads ? He knew he was going to be killed. The pads are a message to investigators or others about who it did, where, and why ?

Wasn't there a Sherlock Holmes story like that?
Was he a Holmes fan and does this match up with a Holmes story ?

I see a lot of speculation here, but no one brought this type of angle to it.

[Rex]

54. If he had a doctor monitoring his heart then wouldn't the

doctor have come forward and said something by now? If Dr. Kelly was doing this himself, wouldn't his family know about it? I wonder if a forensics team can determine how long the pads were on the body (as in before or after he slashed his wrist). This investigation should be interesting. I feel sorry for his loved ones and everyone close to him.

[Eloriel]

55. Just wanted to

:kick:

Eloriel