Were you a Kucinich fan when he was pro-life?

[SyracuseDemocrat]

I'm a Kerry supporter, and I've seen many Democratic politicians flip-flop on the abortion issue over the years. Jesse Jackson used to be ardently pro-life, Bill Clinton was as Arkansas governor, Al Gore was pro-life as a Congressman and Senator, and don't forget Dick Gephardt. I will tell you one person who has never flip-flopped on this abortion issue: John Kerry. He didn't become pro-choice when it was politically expedient and when it seemed necessary to be pro-choice to win primaries. It just seems ridiculous to me that Kucinich suddenly became pro-choice right before he decided to make a presidential run. It is obvious that Kucinich has little to no chance at the nomination, so it's even more unbelievable that he would flip-flop. But, nevertheless, he did, and in doing so lost my respect. I myself am pro-choice, but I respected Kucinich's courage in being pro-life in a pro-choice dominant party. That respect I had for him is gone now.

[blm]

1. Kucinich fan since 1972.

Now I want a Dept. of Peace

[SyracuseDemocrat]

2. you actually believe

that kucinich is sincere in this? he flip-flopped months before his decision to run for president, literally a couple months.

[meow2u3]

34. I WAS a Kucinich fan--until he flip-flopped!

I don't think Kucinich is really pro-choice--he just publicly says that because he's been intimidated and/or bought off by powerful pro-choice groups, who have effectively made "choice" a litmus test for Democrats running for President. :mad:

Personally, I think he sold out the neo-progressive (consistent-human-life-ethic left) wing of the Democratic Party by his flip-flopping.

[JohnKleeb]

3. I dont use abortion as a litmus test honestly

The fact that he was more for reducing abortion than out right banning it is ok. I tell you this I would prefer anti abortion and anti death penalty Kucinich to a pro choice yet pro death penalty democrat.

[Cheswick2.0]

4. people are allowed to change their view point..to evolve

I was not a fan when he was pro-life based on that one issue alone. He stopped voting on the abortion bills for quite some time and then he made a very solid explanation of why/how he changed his mind.

I respect his honesty.

[JohnKleeb]

7. I agree but I still liked him then

I think he had a simliar opition as my mom's folks who are against the death penalty and opposed this war. People can envolve its part of politics and most importantly life. I can forgive RFK for once working for Joe McCarthy.

[SyracuseDemocrat]

9. huh?

What are you saying?

[JohnKleeb]

11. ok I was sayin

My grandparents held a simliar view to Kucinich on abortion, in that they personally opposed it, but had no desire to overturn RoeVWade, and I dont use abortion as a litmus test, I would prefer a anti abortion and anti death penalty candiate which Kerry I think is and I like that, to a pro choice and pro death penalty candiate. Understand now I am real sorry about my grammar it sucks ass, I know.
Is that better? I think I prefer Kerry to Dean its hard really.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

5. Kerry Couldn't Have Been Elected in Mass.

if he were pro-life. Most of the Catholics here may be pro-life privately, but certainly don't vote that way. Mitt Romney, overly-coiffed Repuke, changed his stance to get elected over Irish-Catholic Democrat Shannon O'Brien, who is a pro-choice Dem.

[robbedvoter]

6. There ya go again: gonadal politics! (for some of his fans)

I am disturbed by his votes - But Kerry flip flopped on others (like war) so, I am still searching.

[SyracuseDemocrat]

8. Hey,

it's fun to dance around issues...

[Composed Thinker]

10. Didn't Kucinich bankrupt Cleveland?

And then wasn't it back to normal a few years after he left?

[JohnKleeb]

12. he also saved Clevelanders money

Theres a DUer here who can tell you that I forget his name, but Kucinich also got a commendtion in 1998 from the Cleveland City Council for having the courage and foresight to refuse to sell the city's municipal electric system.

[ShaneGR]

36. That is not true

There was never a commendation first off. Second off, that bankrupcy ruined downtown Cleveland for two decades and made our school system one of the worst in the nation. I'd have GLADLY paid higher electric bills to avoid that.

[AnAmerican]

49. You are factually wrong.

There was a commendation and the foreclosure was just one of a series of events that caused problems for Cleveland. Nationwide issues of economic dowturns and the competition from overseas played a much larger role in decimating our manufacturing base.

[DemBones DemBones]

51. We know you dislike Kucinich but if you're going to make

allegations, how about posting proof?

Previously, you have taken Kucinich to task for saying he represents Cleveland when he represents Lakewood. That's like saying that my father lied when he said he grew up in Cleveland since his family lived in Shaker Heights. Technicalities and splitting hairs. :eyes:

[lcordero]

13. the banks in Cleveland bankrupted Cleveland

the banks in Cleveland are crooked. Kucinich found out that the banks had vested interests in Muny Lights competitors and were trying to force Kucinich to sell off Muny Light.

[DemBones DemBones]

39. Here's the story on Kucinich's courage as mayor of Cleveland,

when he stood up to the banks and saved the municipal power company:


Having been elected to Cleveland’s City Council at age 23, Dennis Kucinich was well-known to Cleveland voters when they chose him as their mayor in 1977 at the age of 31. He was elected mayor on a promise that he would not sell off or privatize the beloved and trusted city-owned power system, though Cleveland was deeply in debt.

Cleveland Magazine offered this summary: “Kucinich refused to yield to bankers who gave him a choice: Sell the Municipal Light System to the Cleveland Electric Illuminating Co. or the city will go into default. The mayor said no.”

When Kucinich refused to sell Muny Light, the banks took the unprecedented step of refusing to roll over the city’s debt, as is customary. Instead, they pushed the city into default. It turned out the banks were thoroughly interlocked with the private utility, CEI, which
would have acquired monopoly status by taking over Muny Light. Five of the six banks held almost 1.8 million shares of CEI stock; of the 11 directors of CEI, eight were also directors of four of the six banks involved.

By holding to his campaign promise and putting principle above politics, he lost his re-election bid and his political career was derailed. But today Kucinich stands vindicated for having confronted the Enron of his day, and for saving the municipal power company. “There is little
debate,” wrote Cleveland Magazine in May 1996, “over the value of Muny Light today. Now Cleveland Public Power, it is a proven asset to the city that between 1985 and 1995 saved its customers $195,148,520 over what they would have paid CEI.”

When Kucinich re-launched his political career in the mid-1990s, it was on the strength of having saved public power. His campaign symbol was a light bulb. “Because he was right!” was his campaign slogan when he won his seat in the state senate in 1994. The slogan that sent him to Washington two years later was “Light Up Congress.”

In 1998, the Cleveland City Council issued a commendation to Dennis Kucinich for "having the courage and foresight to refuse to sell the city's municipal electric system."

http://www.kucinich.us/aboutdennis.htm

[AnAmerican]

45. One word answer...No

DK did not bankrupt Cleveland. Nor was it "back to normal a few years after"

Cleveland was foreclosed upon by a group of banks that stood to gain financially had he caved in to their demand to sell the municipal power company. In fact his action has saved the citizens of Cleveland millions of dollars in the time since.

In terms of returning to normal, Cleveland has suffered, just as other industrial cities have suffered due to the downturn in the manufacturing base. A downturn, incidentally, brought about in part by NAFTA. Dennis is also for abandoning that particular ill-conceived agreement.

On edit...I have been a Dennis for many years...his recent (and honest) change of heart on a woem's right just makes me respect him evenmore.

[IndianaGreen]

14. My heartburn with Kerry comes from his support for the Iraq war

Even Lieberman has a good record in support of women and gay rights. despite his opposition to gay marriage.

It is true that Kucinich has an anti-choice voting record. It is also true that many liberals support Kucinich despite that voting record, but based on Kucinich's opposition to the war, and his support of a progressive platform.

What it really comes down to is the WAR!

I may have counted myself among the Kerry supporters had he acted more as the John Kerry that opposed the Vietnam War and gave the finger to Nixon, rather than one of many that gave Bush the carte blanche to attack Iraq.

Would Kerry make a better President than Bush? Not having a President at all would make a better President than Bush. Bush is harming the country and the world each time he takes a breath in the Oval Office. We are facing a crisis from which the country may never recover if Bush has another 4 years in the WH. Despite the pressing need to replace Bush, it doesn't do any good to replace Bush with someone that will not put a halt and reverse the Bush policies.

The war is one of those issues that demand immediate and unequivocal action: End the occupation of Iraq and bring the troops home at once!

[JohnKleeb]

15. IG you have said it

[SyracuseDemocrat]

17. IG

I am antiwar too, but please don't drag this abortion thread into the war. It has nothing to do with it.

[Cha]

16. "Pro Life" is a misnomer..."Anti-Choice" is the way I think

it should be framed.

We are all "Pro Life"...but the anti-christ right are against freedom of choice.

[SyracuseDemocrat]

18. anti-christ right?

I think that the right are very much pro-christ - pro-christ in schools, pro-christ in the bedroom, etc. :P

[JohnKleeb]

21. pro-christ by their definition

Christ lol have you seen the portraits of him, he looks like the antithesis of the right wing, bearded and long haired and he was radical in his time. I have heard the Christian Right refered to as, pro Paul not pro Jesus.

[Cha]

38. IMO the zealots on the right use Christ's name falsely.

They hide behind His name when in reality even in my minimal exposure to what He stands for...it's got nothing to do with the greedy bigots who claim to be "religious".

Therefore they are "anti-christ".

[JohnKleeb]

19. yes zidzi true

Although I didnt like Kucinich's view on it, I thought hard about it and concluded, Dennis is like my grandparents, Ive never once heard them advocate repealing RoeVWade, go to an anti RoeVWade rally, or above all support a republican because of their view, Dennis was the same, so in the end I understood.

[DemBones DemBones]

40. Arguments about nomenclature are just name-calling. n/t

[Dob Bole]

20. Kucinich missed a chance to tap into a large Dem base...

A LOT of Democrats are pro-life, or at least partially pro-life. At first they looked at Gephardt, who flip-flopped. Then John Edwards was against partial-birth abortion, but he DIDN'T EVEN SHOW UP TO VOTE on it. Kucinich made a mistake, because it looked like organizations like Democrats for Life were leaning toward supporting him.

[ButterflyBlood]

25. Edwards never voted for the D&E ban

http://www.ontheissues.org/Senate/John_Edwards.htm

Strongly Favors
Abortion is a woman's right
(10 points on Social scale) Favors: NO on disallowing overseas military abortions
Strongly Favors: NO on banning partial birth abortions
Favors: NO on maintaining ban on Military Base Abortions

Even if Kucinich got the pro-life Democrat vote, he'd lose all the NARAL support and single issue pro-choice voters, and that would do him in.

[SyracuseDemocrat]

22. LET me just say that

I completely respected Kucinich's pro-life views. I am pro-choice as I said, but I admired his convictions on remaining pro-life. Now he has lost that respect, and it is NOT becuase he has turned pro-choice, it is because he flip-flopped. I have enormous respect for pro-life Democrats because they are the exact opposite of the pro-life Republicans. They want every baby to be born into a better world, a world with health care, education, and love. I can respect their pro life views. I cannot respect the pro-life views of the Republicans, however. Republicans claim to be pro-life while steadily dismantling every social program that benefits babies who are already alive! I wish for an America in which abortions aren't necessary, an America in which every baby has access to health care, no baby has to go hungry, and every baby is nurtured from the moment they come into this world. I really do think that this is possible, and this day can't come soon enough.

[JohnKleeb]

26. look S Dem maybe he did envolve you know

I will tell you this, being pro choice and anti death penalty, the fact that Kerry who you support believes that so, is a major plus for him over Dean. Did you understand me there? I think people can envolve with their views and acually, some of the Kucinich supporters I know myself not included are, against abortion.

[AnAmerican]

50. Let me say...

"I wish for an America in which abortions aren't necessary, an America in which every baby has access to health care, no baby has to go hungry, and every baby is nurtured from the moment they come into this world."

Your quote. Funny how it could have come from DK's mouth. That is precisely how he feels.

[thermodynamic]

23. Believe it or not, abortion is not a critical issue right now

Unless Bushbrain* is trying to covertly move something behind everybody's back.

The issues are:

* trustworthiness in government
* the economy
* foreign diplomacy
* "homeland" security
* Holding Bush accountable for his campaign speeches and phrases compared to his post-selection betrayal of what he'd said.

Bush has readily failed EVERY SINGLE CATEGORY. Big-time. So big he is the ultimate embarrassment to the civilized world. The Democrats must remember every single incident and stunt he's pulled and REMIND the voters of these issues come election time. Otherwise they will lose and won't need the Supreme Court's help. Judging by Al Gore's original performance, let's be grateful he is NOT running again. He simply assumed he'd glide into office riding on the coattails of the economy Mr. Clinton crafted. Oops. His hubris could get the better of him again. I want someone else running for President this time, and let's remember Mr. Gore OPENLY CHOSE not to run - so for that let's say GET OVER IT. (it's okay to NOT GET OVER Selection 2000 because that was two crimes in one; Jeb/Katherine's crime combined with the Partisan Political "Supreme" Court who did not look at the facts and simply gave the prize to Georgie Jr. Not taking evidence into consideration is a crime as far as I'm concerned and the popular vote was the most telling evidence there was, if not the most obvious. Did I just make a strong accusation against somebody in high power? I suppose I did. :-(

The Democrats should have a very easy time getting 55% of the vote thanks to the inpetitude of Bush and to the damage Bush has caused. As much as 65% if they play their cards right. Maybe even higher if they hit the jackpot - 70%. (My guess is that 30% of the population would vote Republican regardless.)

[Cheswick2.0]

28. not when you have a penis it's not

Choice is always an issue for women. We have to guard our rights to control our lives.

PS....Gore didn't assume anything. I have no idea where you are coming from with that nonsense. He busted during the last election under terrible odds. He was opposed by the right, Mr Manipulation on the "left" and the press....and he won.

[thermodynamic]

33. I'll clarify

Okay, it is an issue.

But there are bigger ones right now and abortion can be re-addressed. Somehow it always is, otherwise nobody would be challenging Roe-v-Wade. My point is getting Bush out of office by homing in on the most glaring issues and I had mentioned them, saying it should be an easy victory if it's handled right.

And you're wrong, the abortion issue is indirectly related to the gay issue. It's all lumped in under the category of "reproductive rights". And the same people who want abortion to be utterly illegal want all us homos to become converts to fit their perception of reality as well.

As for the PS, reality is a dangerous concept. We all see it differently. And you're wrong, lots of people thought Gore was hinging on Clinton's success - but most of them were Greens and they're evil around here...

[DagmarK]

24. This thread's purpose is disingenuous

It's one thing to post a debate item where you say "I don't like Kucinich because he changed his view on abortion for political reasons." That is a debate issue.

On the other hand, to ask an alleged INNOCENT question in the thread title, like, gee.....gosh, I don't know, but, gee, gosh....do you guys have a problem with K ......?

That's passive-aggressive and falls in the realm of candidate bashing. It is not debate.

No, I am not a K supporter. Not in the least.

[SyracuseDemocrat]

27. thanks for your input

:eyes:

[TheBigGuy]

42. Good points...

...im getting a little tired of this stuff.

[DemBones DemBones]

43. I agree -- it seems disingenuous to me as well.

As are "He bankrupted Cleveland!" "He's unelectable!" "He has a weird name!" "He's too far left!" and other false issues.

[arcos]

47. I totally agree...

It is obvious this is a "designed for bashing" thread :(

[DFLforever]

29. I have always admired Kucinich and still do very much

even though I currently prefer another candidate for the nomination. I don't view Dennis' change on this issue as being in the least bit troubling; in fact, his opinion seems to me very common to that of a lot of people in this country, i.e., personally pro-life, but pro-choice in terms of public policy. I think this a wise position.

[JohnKleeb]

30. the posistion is that of my political mentors

[poskonig]

31. Kucinich rules!

Though I'm pro-choice, I was disappointed Kucinich did a Kerry on abortion; people should fight for what they believe in. Nevertheless, Kucinich has been an outstanding congressman and one of my favorites in the progressive caucus.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

32. I'd Like A Kucinich Supporter To Please

tell me why Kucinich voted for the god-awful Flag Burning Amendment

That is the most reactionary piece of legislation to come down the pike since the Alien-Sedition Act.

I was going to start a thread but I didn't want to be accused of posting flame-bait

[Colin Ex]

35. Here's a basic synopsis from my POV

The flag-burning amendments / legislation come down the line around the end of every year. This has happened many a time before.

Is it stupid? Yeah. Should it go out the window? Oh yeah. But it's generally taken for granted that the Senate is going to pitch it when it comes around there. So if you burn flags (and more power to you, I say) then you will still be able to rock on, and as always, the only worry you'll have is from fascist assholes with bricks.

You can make your call on whether or not it was okay or not based on that. Just be aware that it's happened before, that a lot of people see torching the flag as Commie bullshit, and that it's going to have zero effect.

-C

[DemocratSinceBirth]

37. I Don't Want Anybody Messing

with my right to express myself.

The First Amendment is there to protect the things we disagree with. Not the things we agree with.

I am a Bill of Rights absolutist.

Any candidate who wants to mess with my civil liberties ain't getting my vote.

That's why I'm not a Puke.

[TheBigGuy]

41. Yeah, actually I was a fan. I still am a fan.

I could care less about the flip flop.

[hippywife]

44. I don't see where...

Kucinich actually flip-flopped at all. More like he clarified his position. I agree that it is fine to be pro-life in one's beliefs but pro-choice in their political stance. One is not necessarily mutually exclusive from the other. My own stance is exactly the same. I would prefer to see the causes of unwanted, unintended pregnancies and abortions dealt with. It is always sad when a life is cut short, but it is equally troubling to me to see innocent children born to people who would abuse that trust.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

46. yes...disagreement on 1 issue only is a could thing

[DemBones DemBones]

48. Yes, I was a Kucinich supporter when he was pro-life and still am

now that he's pro-choice. I was initially very disappointed because I felt that he had caved in to societal and political pressure, after years of standing firm, but what I've read about his change of viewpoint has convinced me that he still wants to reduce abortions the right way -- by making sure people are informed about and have access to contraceptives and by supporting families (particularly single women with children) so that abortion doesn't have to be a financial necessity for anyone. I don't think that it's a choice when economics force a woman to abort, I think it's a crime on the part of society. I suppose you could call it society's choice, choosing not to help those who need help.

Because of everything else that Dennis Kucinich supports, I believe that he's being truthful about how he came to his current viewpoint on abortion. As a pro-life progressive, I've never thought repealing Roe v. Wade was the thing to do and he never supported repeal, either. Kucinich is supportng ways to reduce the number of abortions, as I have always advocated. He wants to bring an end to the divisiveness of this issue, a healing between people of different sides, which I think is long overdue.