What Was The Difference Between 9/11 & Shock And Awe?

[matcom]

To the civilians of the respective cities and the countries as a whole? if one was worse, tell us why. if there is a difference, tell us why.

my thread, MY RULES: I ask this question in all sincerity knowing what is likely to follow. I have struggled to post this question for over a year. Don't ask me why I choose to do so now for i do not know.

i will NOT (I REPEAT) will NOT respond to ANY post in this thread. not here or in PM. except to kick it if necessary don't bother calling me out. it ain't working. i am not looking for flames, just HONEST assessment. but, i do realize what is likely to happen. make a liar out of me. I WILL BE READING EVERY POST WITH INTEREST!

on edit:

it is obvious that I do NOT see a difference. I will make that clear here. BOTH were disgusting and made me want to puke my guts out. one was perpetrated by terrorists and the other one was perpetrated by terrorists. i was eating lunch in a restaurant with another wonderful DUer when shock and awe started and we ended up in a fight with the manager of that restaurant. that night i wept.

on 9/11 i was home, working. by myself i sat on my couch and wept.

tell me now that two wrongs make a right.

[Jacobin]

1. Well..................

9/11 "shocked and awed" the U.S.

Shock and awe just pissed off Iraq

[LuLu550]

2. the difference is

we warned them we were coming to kill them and they took us by surprise.

[Wonk]

3. Nope. Well, folks in the WTC were surprised but there were warnings.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/07/26/national/main303601.shtml

[LuLu550]

10. yeah, you are right, Wonk

I mean the victims, of course, not the idiots in charge of things.

5. matcom's question was

What Was The Difference Between 9/11 & Shock And Awe to the civilians of the respective cities and the countries as a whole?

Warning's aside, I would say there was not much difference. As far as percentages go a higher number of Iraqis were directly impacted, I'd think & I was in New York at the time. I climbed up on the roof of my apartment in Astoria and saw the smoke from the towers at 10 in the morning.

Why did they take us by surprise and should we have been surprised is another subject entirely.

[kysrsoze]

21. There was a time difference, I believe

:eyes:

[styersc]

22. Tremendous Number of Differences:

1). 9/11 was designed to kill thousands of civilians indiscriminately. Shock and Awe was designed to limit civilian casualties.

2). 9/11 targetted civilians exclusively; Shock and Awe did not (see #1).

3). Shock and Awe was designed to limit the scope of the war by attempting to bring it to a speedy conclusion. 9/11 was designed as the beginning of a long and bloody conflict.

4). Shock and Awe was forcast for month previous to its implementation and civilians had an opportunity to flee- many did. 9/11 gave no such notice.



There is no useful purpose in posting such a simple minded question. This gives plenty of ammunition to those who would try to paint Democrats and posters to this forum as fringe "anti-American" nuts. Why do you want to help them? This question is parallel to the question- "What is the difference between a Freeper and a DU'er?"

[Malva Zebrina]

29. Never be afraid to be free and never be that concerned over what "they"

can say about you. Be yourself always and say what you think. No one can hurt you, especially the freepies.

Number 1--yup, designed to limit the casualties to ten thousand babies, children, women and old men. I would say there was a design flaw there.

Number two--err, if they were not targeting civilians, how come ten thousand of them are killed? You actually believe that?

Number three--the shock and awe was overreach and the war against this relatively defenseless nation, on the lies of George Bush, would be over no matter what, in a short period of time. There was NO resistance here at all. WE have the most hi tech equipped military and are the richest nation. we knew and the UN helped us out, there was nothing that Iraq had that they could fight back with. We KNEW that. There is nothing about this entire invasion that is brave or commendable or that our troops can be medalled for. It was indeed an invasion based on lies , was illegal, was immoral, was unethical and was an egregious display of mighty American power over a little nation that has been under brual sanctions for ten years. Had no air force, had no army and had no navy. And we think our troops were "brave'?

]Number four--apparently ten thousand did not flee and could not flee.

30. thanks

you said it better than I would have at the moment at the end of my work day

32. two quotes from your response

"Shock and Awe was designed to limit civilian casualties"

That's what the administration said anyway. Are you sure this was true?

"This question is parallel to the question- "What is the difference between a Freeper and a DU'er?""

My genuine answer is that
Generally I think there is a big difference at least in the views held, both are political animals though.

Some might wonder related to your first quote though.

I am not an anti-American fringe nut. However, I do think that the humanity of civilians extends beyond our national borders. There deaths are no less painful and their lives are no more expendable.
At least in an ideal world.

[TinaTyson]

4. A tough question. There are differences of course.

It is true that al Qaeda targeted civilians and US forces did not. That doesn't matter a lot to the dead people and their families though.

The goals were different. To get a regime to surrender and whatever al Qaeda wanted.

The tools however were basically the same. Terror.

Thats the short answer any way.

[TNOE]

7. How do you bomb whole cities

and NOT target civilians.... we're not even counting the dead Iraqi's. Not good enough.

[TinaTyson]

20. If you think that there were not steps taken to try to minimize

civilian loss I think you are incorrect.

Smart bombs are not geniuses and one could certainly argue about how successful they are. Still, there is a difference between trying to miss and failing to miss and slamming a plane right in to them. I'm not saying Bush would avoid it because he is a nice guy or anything. But going after civilians on purpose would(and has even when it has been an accident) get him in big trouble real quick.

Now, as to whether that makes a difference to the civilians themselves I did already acknowledge that there isn't much or any difference. In fact the main reason I brought it up was to dismiss it as "not good enough", as I was sure it would be said somewhere else later on the thread.

[TNOE]

27. I hear you Tina

but given the fact that we dropped 30,000 bombs all filled with Depleted Uranium which gets into the ground, water, etc. - I can guarantee you these civilians will be dying for many, many years to come - not to speak of their children and the deaths of the babies born and the tremendous retardation and malformation that is going to occur. We have for all intents and purposes destroyed Iraq. The depleted uranium will linger some 3 billion years - it is not going to go away. NOt to speak of the harm and danger this has caused to our very own soldiers.

[TNOE]

6. Shock and Awe

Made me VIOLENTLY ill - to know my country was killing innocent civilians for absolutely no good reason except to steal their resources - and seeing the bombs drop and the "football crowd mentality" made me sick to be a human being on this planet.

9/11 was just a very sick feeling in the pit of my stomach that Bush indeed got his Trifecta.... that he had been ever so slightly gearing us up for.... the economy, etc. - all was 'WAIT UNTIL NEXT WEEK' - knowing nobody was going to be talking about the economy next week. And the fact that the emotion they were looking for - they got - people started wanting to blow up people and countries and started waving their flags.... - but the one thing about stupid people is - they get very bored eventually.

[parasim]

8. They both

fit the dictionary definition of "terrorism":

terrorism
n : the systematic use of violence as a means to intimidate or coerce societies or governments

Of course, when the US does it, it's called something else.

To me, both acts were incredibly barbaric. However, since Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, we're probably comparing apples to oranges.

[CalebHayes]

9. 1. They knew it was coming...

but that does not make it okay.

[TNOE]

12. We Knew It Was Coming

We as in our Government, our president, our representatives, the people whose job it is the protect this country KNEW it was coming... which didn't help those 3,000 dead one bit - and when you say it like that - "they knew it was coming" - isn't that worse in a way???? If we knew another country was going to Shock & Awe the United States - where would we run to? Think hiding in a basement is going to save you from the bombs? Only the rich no doubt were able to escape and leave the country.

[HalfManHalfBiscuit]

40. If we knew another country was planning to "Shock & Awe" us

We would destroy the bastards beforehand.

[LuLu550]

11. on a related note:

How long will it be before the Freepers get their hands on this an post it to their Website and the DU quote of the day or Rush uses it as proof we are anti-American shitheads?

[TNOE]

13. Who Gives a Shit?

That is the question. I'm beyond caring what those dumbasses think, never have actually.

15. What?

You're standing up for what you believe without worrying what others think?
the horror, the horror

[Stephanie]

17. Who cares what they think?

Facts have never gotten in their way, why would they bother to read this?

Bombing innocent people to death by the thousands based on false evidence - that was Shock and Awe. It was sickening, and even more so now that we know the extent of the Bush lies that made it happen.

Is there anyone in Freeperville who would say that it's just to bomb innocent civilians to death when they pose no threat to us? When we are doing it solely to advance secret geo-strategic ambitions?

I sincerely hope not.

[LuLu550]

19. NO NO NO!

I don't give a shit what they think, I'm thinking they are getting a hard-on reading this post as "proof" how whacked out we all are....they would never dream of thinking about anything this deeply or thinking critically about an issue like this.

[Stephanie]

23. I know what you meant

They might cherry-pick our posts to try to prove we are unAmurrican. I repeat:

Who cares what they think?

They are American Taliban.

[TNOE]

25. Ohhh Stephanie

You haven't been to those right wing websites.... yes - they think it is absolutely okay to even kill liberals - they think they should be allowed to kill anyone who doesn't agree with them and who doesn't LOVE Bush because he is a honest, moral man and a MAN OF GOD who would absolutely NEVER lie - so they never have to question his decisions or judgments. He speaks with God - and therefore he IS God.

They were sending the soldiers off to their deaths for a lie with their flags waving - and in a completely Orwelian way - said that it was the Liberals who did not support the troops - because we wanted them to stay home and to avoid that mess - avoid another VietNam, avoid a war - but they were so anxious to send the men and women off - that they did not even question their fearless leader's motives - because it was JUST CRAZY that liberals said this war was about the oil - I mean he is an oil man and so is Cheney but that has NOTHING TO DO WITH IT - Because God told him to strike and he did. Now most people who think they talk to God and he hears them and answers back are in insaneasilums - but in our case - he is the leader of the country.

I know you didn't ask for all this - but I'm on a roll. Vacilitating between being furious and being very grateful - because they are in the process of being EXPOSED - Karl Rove is probably having to change Bush's diaper on a regular basis lately - when he's not changing his own due to the Valarie Plame affair.

[Stephanie]

26. You're right - I don't look at their sites

I just don't care what they think. You're very brave to read that stuff.

[DrWeird]

14. The difference is- we were supposed to know better.

People say everything changed after 9-11.

That is just a big lie. Absolutely nothing changed.

Nobody learned anything.

The cycle of violence just kept going.

There's a lot of people who should be ashamed of themselves.

[TNOE]

16. Everything Changed

the day John F. Kennedy died - in reality.... IF there had been a TRUE investigation, a REAL investigation - the world would not be in the shape it is in. That's why we cannot let 9/11 go answered. God help our children and our children's children.

[leftchick]

18. And we are...

"not safer" as shithead* keeps ranting about.

[maggrwaggr]

33. shock and awe was worse because it was sanctioned

by the United States government, and the citizens of this country.

Our money, our taxes, paid for shock and awe.

We supposedly live in a democracy and we should have been able to stop it and we did not.

The media cheered for shock and awe and they did not for 9/11.

Shock and awe was the end product of years of military buildup by corporate business leaders in the richest country on earth. The technology was the result of some very intelligent people who could have easily put their minds to use elsewhere, like figuring out how to stop our dependency on fossil fuel.

9/11 was a bunch of fanatics who wanted to kill people.

One was a crime, the other was a war crime.

Shock and awe was much much worse.

[leftchick]

24. I wept too matcom

I was recalling it just today. I broke down at the dinner table in front of my husband and boys. My eight year old, who went to every protest with me, came and gave me a hug and kiss. I kept thinking over and over how many like my child the US was killing at that moment. No different from September 11 as far as I am concerned. Both acted as terrorists.

[thebigidea]

28. both were pretty fucking disgusting, both made me cry

And I'm not much of a weeper.

Shock and Awe was exceedingly disturbing - while it was going on, most of my friends were sitting around playing some stupid shoot-em-up videogame while another tv in the background droned continuous "real" war coverage. The juxtaposition of fake war and real war made me incredibly sick.

[pippin]

31. None

Especially since we now know there was no justification for going to war with Iraq. As far as I am concerned, "shock and awe" is the 9/11 for Iraqis. From the world protests we've seen against Bush he's considered as much a terrorist as Osama. Killing innocent civilians for political purposes is terrorism. For Iraqis, such as the mother who witnessed her child's head being blown off, there can be no forgiveness. of what Bush and his minions have done.

Incidentally, we're coming up close to the first anniversary of this whole dreadful mess. I hope there will be protests on March 17.

[maggrwaggr]

37. you're right. There is no forgiveness.

I will never forgive anyone who had anything to do with this war.

Unfortunately that includes Kerry.

[maggrwaggr]

34. 9/11 we saw the bodies, shock and awe they were hidden

here's one. There are others:



more here:

http://www.einswine.com/atrocities/iraq/?pic=166

And at the marchforjustice.com main site.

Shock and Awe undoubtedly killed more CHILDREN than did 9/11.

[maggrwaggr]

35. one more way shock and awe was worse:

shock and awe had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11.

Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 yet we bombed the shit out of them anyway, just for the sheer rollicking hell of it.

THAT'S the biggest crime about shock and awe.

No one who died in Iraq had ANYTHING to do with 9/11.

We just fucking murdered them.

Feels good, doesn't it? Are you about to do your taxes? Ready to pay for more murder?

[Darranar]

36. There is a very clear difference...

Shock and Awe likely killed more than 3,000 innocent civilians.

[CaptainClark23]

38. One MAJOR difference

Shock n' Awe was designed and implemented in order to wrest control from a corrupt Governmental Authority.

9.11 was designed and implemented in order to consolidate the control of a corrupt Governmental Authority.



May these bastards rot in hell for all they've done.

[matcom]

39. kick

want some more input

[matcom]

41. one last time

:kick:

[rucky]

42. To say one is worse than the other

is to say that human lives are not of equal value.