Lesser of 2 Evils; Revealing LIHOP to avoid exposing MIHOP

[hang a left]

Let me qualify my post by first stating that I am a MIHOPPER.

It would appear to me that the one of the intents of the recent release of Mr. Clarkes book, and the televised testimony this week, is to float the LIHOP theory to the masses. IMO these revelations alone, will be what wins the election for the Dems in 04.

For all the long time naysayers out there in DU land, the "conspiracy theory" of LIHOP is now evolving into a conspiracy fact.

We are all familiar with the PNAC manifesto that makes it clear that the perps were in need of a "Pearl Habor" type of event in order to facilitate their plans for geo-political and global domination.

Now lets run with LIHOP for a minute. There had to be several people involved directly. There had to be more that were complicit by keeping quiet. There were others employed by our government, and by the media, that figured it out, after the fact, just as we have here. There has been an active cover-up that has been perpetrated by many just by inaction and refusing to speak out. You have to ask yourself why? Why would you assist these ruthless criminals by not talking about it until now?

WHY? Because our citizens have been conditioned by witnessing the ridicule of those that dare speak out against offical stories. The ridiculers are everywhere, in government, in the media, at DU, in your neighbors house, ad infinitum. The public is conditioned to not accept anything other that what their TV tells them.

Now, if you are willing to entertain LIHOP, after being in denial for so long, let's take it one step further. Don't be scared, it won't hurt you. We shall just call it a mental exercise. I won't tell anyone.

If you are willing to believe they were evil enough to know it was going to happen and let it, because they needed it, then, what makes you think that they wouldn't have helped it along? Eh? What say you?

[readmylips]

1. But they did 'helped it along' ....

The bush criminals had the facts in their hands...they can't deny that. That is the reason why condisleeza can't and won't testify in person. Her king, littleman bush, knew exactly what was going on. What probably, ( give them a tiny credit) they did not expect the catastrophe to be so huge. They probably figued...oh yeah a little aircraft like the one that almost hit the White House in 1997(?).

If you see littleman bush sitting in that classroom, the bastard had no sense of urgency...because he knew it was coming...and in his little mind felt that it would be a small deal..maybe a handful of Americans dead. The guy loves blood and everyone else in that administration. They are the coldwar heroes that never were...and they came back for revenge and to setup wrong policies for the Country and the World.

May they burn in Hell!

ps: Good Morning from Beautiful Arizona.

[unblock]

2. what's scary is that lihop will be well-received

while lihop is universally considered to be a horror story here on du, lihop will find many supporters in and beyond rush/fox land.

the fact is, many people out there agree with the pnac agenda, including the whole idea of keeping it secret.

if a latter-day ollie north stands up with hand over heart and a flag over his shoulder and confidently states that a sacrifice of 3,000 brave and patriotic americans was necessary to waking up america into facing down its genuine evil enemy across the globe, then that person will someday be a u.s. senator.

disgusting, sad, and pathetic.

but, alas, true.

[ChompySnack]

12. Nope

Maybe sacrificing soldiers would go over, but never innocent citizens.

[RedSock]

3. LIHOP

At this point, LIHOP is 100% fact in my book.

Toss in Cheney dividing up the Iraq oil fields soon after taking office, scaling back investigations into OBL, and dozens and dozens of other damning facts and it is a short hop to MIHOP.

[KoKo]

4. Could you define MIHOP for those who don't know what the difference is

between LIHOP and MIHOP. Some new folks may not know either term, I have always been a LIHOPPER but frankly can't remember what the morph to MIHOP is. :eyes:

[JohnyCanuck]

8. Make It Happen On Purpose (MIHOP)

As opposed to Let It Happen On Purpose (LIHOP)

In other words, MIHOP means that someone within the Bush administration and/or intelligence community had a hand in setting up 9/11 so that the US could take advantage of the new "Pearl Harbor" event. The PNAC/neo-cons claimed a "Pearl Harbor" type event would be needed for the populace to accept their plans that the US needs to institute a world wide Pax-Americana in which all countries would be subservient to US interests.

LIHOP, the Bush gang found out about the hijackings without actively setting them up, but played along and let them go ahead for the "Pearl Harbor" effect anyway.

[PATRICK]

5. Jumping ahead too fast

Unfortunately, in the muddle of bureaucracy, as you can see in Clinton era witnesses before the committee, you only need to add studied distraction and inattention at the top to cause LIHOP.

As far as the evidence is moving it IS limited to that, damning as that is as we move on to the pretext for the Gulf War.

You are right in that it needs to be pursued until every layer is stripped off the core. If we are left with reading the minds of the key players(without all evidence that is hidden) they can all plead the Clinton excuse concerning "intention". There may be real damning evidence and there is where you are right again. The worst plans can only be shared by a few, but not so few that the beans may not be spilled. This goes for the rigging of elections and other crimes too.

Pressure must be kept up on all fronts or the weakest point until it cracks. And physically and mentally the weak links are buckling.

Your fear that hiding behind "damage to the nation" and "bringing everyone down" is exactly their ploy and ironically you may be enabling that if you are blindly spreading that total complicity angle for them.

Look at Clarke. By working with the skewed Bush WH he WAS complicit and blinded. He did not have to be in a higher loop to help things along, even if he fought them as well. This is patently true of all levels, where the various public servants could see only red tape, mystery and frustration in trying to get the job done that the WH did not want done.

What is evident is the mindset "it will happen" or "it doesn't matter to my agenda" or "the agenda first, nothing else matters". The latter O'Neill proves absolutely regarding Cheney's dismissive rhetoric about ruinous deficits.

That is enough to warrant a Grand Jury to peel off the layers of the onion until the nothingness within is all that is left.

[Junkdrawer]

6. Except that LIHOP, or it's (in my view) more believable cousin...

"The Players Got Played" are still enough to get top officials charged with capital offenses.

Look, I'd be tickled pink to hear any mainstream journalist even suggest that anyone in this administration ignore anything on purpose.

[Virginian]

7. I am just starting to walk down that path

So far, I am convinced that Bush* has no interest in capturing or killing Osama and never has. Perhaps he is counting on Osama for his October Surprise. If that were to occur, a thinking population would think, "This man has failed to keep us safe, vote him out." Instead, an attack would help Bush* to gain votes, which is not logical.

Dubya believes in absolute loyalty from his associates. Does he also believe in absolute loyalty to his associates? The bin Ladens set him up in business. Wouldn't that be grounds for his loyalty? If they asked him not to hurt Osama, do you think he would follow their wishes out of loyalty? Why did he help them exit the country without talking to the FBI? Is that loyalty? Didn't the FBI talk to McVeigh's relatives? Shouldn't they have been allowed to talk to Osama's? This means Dubya's loyalty is getting Americans killed.

Somebody please tell me I am wrong about this. I am finding it difficult to deal with believing the leader of the free world could put his loyalty to a wealthy foreign family above the lives of the Americans to whom he is supposed to be responsible? Is he such a cruel megalomaniac that he thinks he is excused because the city of New York did not vote for him, so they needed to be punished for being disloyal?

[KoKo]

16. Considering that the binLaden's and Bushes/Baker and rest of BFEE

(Bush Family Evil Empire) go way back and that the Saudi tentacles are everywhere with this crowd it does make "Loyalty" and "where the bodies are buried" a key issue for this administration as it was with Poppy and Reagan.

One could almost think that the "Loyalty" allowed the opening by which 9/11 could happen. Bush & Co. thought they had the perfect relationship with the Saudi's but the radical binLaden (Osama) had enough power and following that he could set this up and the Bushies were blind to the fact that this was happening. Perhaps it was time to betray the Bushies
for reasons we don't yet know. And, this has much to do with why they don't want all of this coming out.

Kevin Philip's book uncovers the Bushes powerful connections with unsavory groups through four generations which possibly left them open to having someone who would eventually challenge or betray them emerge.
The radical bin Laden son was perhaps the element of destruction for the BFEE they didn't see coming. :shrug:

[Virginian]

18. But was it betrayal?

"Perhaps it was time to betray the Bushies for reasons we don't yet know. And, this has much to do with why they don't want all of this coming out."

But was it betrayal or a favor? PNAC said he needed a "Pearl Harbor."

[KoKo]

20. I don't know why, but I go more with betrayal. Favor is too harsh for

me to accept. As evil as these folks are, I think it's their zealotry and overconfidence which leads them to do stupid things. Just because they might have fantasized about a "Pearl Harbor" to go into Iraq and take over the ME, doesn't mean that they thought it would happen or would intentionally make it happen. But, when it fell in their lap they took advantage. I'm talking about the PNAC group, here. There may have been CIA elements or BFEE folks who might have thought up an event, but who knows. They are all so corrupt it causes the worst thoughts one can imagine about what evil plots they might get up to. :shrug:

[Beam Me Up]

21. His * Loyalty is TO HIS CLASS

and his CLASS is not bound by national borders.

We now KNOW that they KNEW 'something' was going to happen. They aided it and abetted it by their inaction. And they did so for an agenda that is not in the interest of American citizens such as you and I. In whose interest was it? Did they also get taken by surprise--the enormity of the event? Perhaps.

People here at DU keep saying over and over that Bush is a sock puppet. WE MUST FIND OUT WHO IS MAKING HIM WIGGLE. Certainly PNAC is part of it--but is that all?

WHO BENEFITTED from the events of 9/11 and all that has followed from it including the Iraq war? How do the bin Laden's make their money? Funny, is it not, the connections between Bush family, bin Laden family, the Saudi royals, Cheney, the Carlyle group, Haliburton--ON AND ON AND ON.

These people do NOT represent OUR interests. Bush exists to distract us from the men behind the curtain.

edite: 'man' to 'men'

[hang a left]

22. Man or Men?

I think you will find what you are looking for in the sordid world of the elite.

Is NWO just a conspiracy theory?

[Beam Me Up]

27. MEN (plural)

Is this "sordid world of the elite" above the law? If so, then none of us are free. We are all slaves to the ILLUSION of freedom. This is why 9/11 is important WAY beyond an 'attack' against the United States by fundamentalist Muslims.

The revolution that founded this nation is incomplete.

[teryang]

9. While 911 and Iraq are a focal point

the corporatists are dismantling our constitution, legal, and economic system to enrich themselves. National security issues are a side show, an interesting and deadly side show, to distract the public while they are stripped of their rights, their property and their government by the big corporate elites. The corrupt thugs and murderers in the government are small fry protecting the superwealthy and powerful who are dismantling the United States of America to increase their profits and power. What comes next is something akin to the depression.

Nader was brilliant last night.

[TruthIsAll]

11. LIHOP = MIHOP. Same thing, Here's why.

Suppose you came across evidence (a diary) that a co-worker was planning a murder of your boss. Would you report the plot to the police, or just let it happen and do nothing in the hope that the death of your boss would be a good career move?

Are you not just as guilty as the murderer, even though you let it happen on purpose?

[Katha]

13. Excellent point. n/t

[TahitiNut]

24. I don't see them as the same thing.

Even though the moral issues may be very similar, the legal culpability may be far different.

Within LIHOP, I can envision all sorts of rationalizations: (1) If we try to stop this, people won't believe us and there's no upside. (2) This has so little chance of being highly successful that even if we turn our back, get out of their way, get ourselves out of harm's way, and distract the FBI, NSA, CIA, and INS, the chances even one plane hits a target is about 50-50. (3) We only foresee a few hundred deaths; more on the planes than on the ground. (4) A scarred and singed WTC tower will be a visible reminder, motivating this country to act and save far more lives in the future. (5) This is the only hope of waking people up to the dangers of terrorism.

I distinguish LIHOP from MIHOP in that MIHOP includes participation and support for the terrorists. I don't think they'd be willing to risk tangible proof of involvement. I think they only did that which, in the strictest/narrowest sense, was arguably 'legal.'


Even people who do the worst of things do so for what they see as "good" reasons. "Good" people do "bad" things. Even a sociopath views themself as battling an "evil." So, the trick is to examine the view of "good" vs. "evil" and see if it rationalizes the behavior in the person's (surrealistic) view. In this case, it obviously does.

[Bushknew]

29. Yes TahitiNut, thatÕs what I argued with ewing2001.

<<I distinguish LIHOP from MIHOP in that MIHOP includes participation and support for the terrorists.>>

Ewing2001 coined the phase LIHOP and I coined the phase MIHOP.

He argued, letÕs get them with LIHOP first and set up later.

ThatÕs when I coined MIHOP and cited the evidence for MIHOP.

He agreed with MIHOP but said most Americans would not accept MIHOP
even if they knew it was true, plus it is too easy to dismiss MIHOPers as conspiracy kooks.

I recognized this but if the administration was bold enough to do it we should
be bold enough to tell the truth.

He replied, well we each run our own side strategy.

[TahitiNut]

31. I use the sport of curling as a metaphor.

I regard LIHOP as akin to sweepers ... while MIHOP actually touches the stone. I think LIHOP is clear almost beyond a reasonable doubt. I don't at all discount the possibility/probability of MIHOP, but I think the strength of the evidence is far more overwhelming for LIHOP.

[Bushknew]

33. Problem is that Democrats donÕt have the power to É

question these bastards about anything, they control everything.

Dems need to win not only the presidency but some Senate and Congressional seats as well before
they can ask about how these letters and passports survived the crash, explosion and fire and
why the Air Force was so late to respond on that day.

[Bushknew]

34. On 911 Bush knew, the ENTIRE country knew that É

there were four hijacked planes.

The entire country was shocked and glued to their TV set and Bush glibly says "man thatÕs one bad pilot" and carries on at a kindergarten as if it were a normal day.

I mean, WTF!!!!

[TahitiNut]

37. That behavior is VERY consistent ....

... with someone awaiting their cue. He's nothing but a front man. He takes his lines and cues from his handlers under direction of Cheney and the cabal. He's a sociopathic narcissist and has nothing to do with setting policy or designing strategy. He takes orders. Almost nothing could be more obvious. In terms of the metaphor of the Emperor's New Clothes, he's just part of the clothes. As a defensive measure, he's an ablative. Even his impeachment would keep the heat off the cabal. In the most extreme case, he'd be a useful martyr. He's there solely to take attention away from others. It's his perfect pathology - he has an insatiable appetite for attention. He wasn't just "sitting there"; he was attracting attention. That's what he does. That's all he does. Without it, he ceases to even exist.

Until this obvious and fundamental fact is fully accepted and understood, the depth and breadth of the corruption in casa blanca cannot be seen. In a city overrun with petty narcissists and a media industry that does nothing better than obsessively pimp for narcissists, what can be more difficult to find because it's hidden in plain sight?

[Ready4Change]

10. My (current) view.

"what makes you think that they wouldn't have helped it along?"

Why take personal action, and expose yourself to potentially being more easily connected with those actions, when some other entity is willing to do what you want without you having to say a word?

THey didn't have to make it happen. They just had to drop their guard.

They could need to Make it happen if, for example, they needed something on a timed schedule, or needed some specific action, rather than a generic attack. But if intelligence reports showed that OBL and AQ were planning something big soon anyway, why further sully themselves?

[Lindsey]

14. I don't put ANYTHNG past

these monsters. They are criminals, thugs, and the lowest forms of human life imaginable. LIHOP, MIHOP, hey...it f'ing happened and I only hope and pray that the truth will come out in our lifetime. It's one of my biggest wishes. I truly consider them to be evil - money and power are an obsession with them. If anyone has ever had an obsession, you know what happens. I consider Cheney to be the ring leader and * to be the puppet. I just saw a documentary on the Olympic hockey team's victory over Russia and I just broke down and cried. I used to be so proud to be an American......

[RedSock]

15. read Hopsicker's new book

Daniel Hopsicker's book "Welcome to Terrorland" shows the HUGE web of CIA-Iran/Contra-BCCI types are so connected with the flight schools the terrorists allegedly trained at.

Even if only half of what Hopsicker reports is true, it seems enough to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that some groups of people -- probably within the CIA -- likely had a hand in 9/11, or at the very least, knew about it years and years.

[RC]

17. You are using rational logic against the criminally insane actions

of the bu$h administration. PNAC has an agenda and a drive to accomplish their goals. They could not leave too much to chance. LIHOP does not explain the Pentagon discrepancies nor three of WTC buildings coming down.

[Virginian]

19. Timing?

According to the PNAC plan, what would be the best time in the Bush* term of office to have a "Pearl Harbor?"

Could there have been a better time? There certainly could have been worse times. If the hijackings happened too late in his term, he would not have been able to implement his war against Saddam.

[hang a left]

23. There were also other things that were covered up by those

buildings being destroyed. As well as people silenced.

[Virginian]

39. Any specifics you might have in mind?

Do you know something? or are you just speculating based on general information?

[hang a left]

42. I had to go back and look it up. It has been a while since I read

a timeline.

Giuliani's Secret Command Center

23rd floor of building was a bunker housing Giuliani's Emergency Command Center. It had:

bullet and bomb resistant windows
an independent secure air and water supply
the ability to withstand winds of 160 MPH
Another tenant was the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC).
The collapse of building 7 destroyed thousands of SEC casefiles, on companies such as WorldCom.

[Bushknew]

25. MIHOP proof

Unbelievable Evidence

1. The "evidence" that a passport survived a plane explosion and tons of concrete falling upon it (and was recovered so soon after the attack, THE NEXT DAY!) is unbelievable.

<<On Sept. 12 ABCNEWS sources identify another hijacker as Satam Suqami, a Saudi national on American Airlines Flight 11, whose passport was recovered in the rubble.>>

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/WTC_MAIN010912.html

2.The "evidence" presented by US Attorney General John Ashcroft of a the four-page handwritten letter having survived the plane explosion at the WTC AND at the Pennsylvania crash site is unbelievable.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/09/28/archive/main312898.shtml

3. The religious items of the hijackers found by Chief Master Sergeant John Monaccio is unbelievable considering how little of the 757 was left at the Pentagon.

http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/pentagon/pentagon-email_20020316.html

After Andrew Card whispered into JuniorÕs ear, BUSH KNEW that there were
four hijacked planes over the US and he went on for 30 minutes with his arms and legs crossed!!!

Bush knew and did nothing.

[nostamj]

28. correction

when Card whispered to the insipid chimp, two of the four planes had crashed into the WTC.

and 30 minutes is a stretch. closer to twenty based on the unedited video I saw last year

[Bushknew]

30. Even though two planes had already crashed É

didnÕt everybody know that a total of 4 planes had been hijacked and Bush carried on like it was a normal day?


20 minutes sounds about right nostamj.

[Bushknew]

26. "No one could have suspected such an attack"

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/DailyNews/wnt_missedsignals_1_020218.html

Fact:
Terrorism expert Marvin Cetron gave the military an aerial attack scenario.

Quote:

"You could make a left turn at the Washington Monument and take out the White House. And you could make a right turn and take out the Pentagon."

Fact / Quote:

Terrorism expert Marvin Cetron warned the Pentagon that two events earlier that year Ñ the crash-landing of a small airplane at the White House by an apparently unstable man, and French authorities' storming of a hijacked airliner that Algerian terrorists had planned to fly into the Eiffel Tower Ñ made an airborne terrorist attack on the United States a very real possibility. "We knew that was going happen and we were scared," he told ABCNEWS.

Fact:

Pentagon officials told him to delete the warning from the report. "I said, 'It's unclassified, everything is available,' and they said, 'We don't want it released because you can't handle a crisis before it becomes a crisis, and no one is going to believe it anyhow,' " Cetron said. Even with the warnings of an airborne attack deleted, the report was not released to the public.

[snappydresser]

32. I don't think the case has been made quite as explicitly as you portray...

...yet.

But I'm on your side, I think, just by the gut feeling I get from the accumulative, zeitgeist quality of the literally thousands of news stories and theories I've read and heard since 911 happened.

And that's kind of the point, a little. Secrecy breeds paranoia. The fact that this administration is so clearly obsessed with keeping secrets from the American people naturally makes the American people wonder what it is, exactly, that they're trying so desperately to hide.

And they are desperate. Frist's little Ricin tactic to remove traces of GOP spying on Dems is clear evidence of that, imnsho.

[TomNickell]

35. ROFLMAO!

ROFLMAO! HEE HEE HEE!

Boy! Another Good ONE! Big Horse Laugh! Woo HOO!

Bush had Clarke write a nasty book to divert attention from the fact that he was actually flying the planes that crashed into the WTC!

And made that 767 disappear right before the scalar electromagnetic pulse hit the Pentagon!

ROFLMAO!

You guys are HOOT!

[KoKo]

36. Tom, I think you might be replying to a different post speculating that

Clarke is being used by the Administration to do a "Psy-Ops Coverup." Or, disinformation? There's another post here which seems to imply more what your post is trying to answer? :shrug:

[TomNickell]

38. No. ROFLMAO still sounds about right..

I reread the original post. Yes, I'm exaggerating for effect. Yes, I didn't read too carefully--Life is too short to waste much effort on obvious nonsense.


Once someone starts saying "LIHOP is a proven fact"--meaning we're absolutely certain that the Federal Bureaucracies had detailed information and have been able to conceal that fact for 2 years-- we're seriously into ROFLMAO territory.

In this weird alternate universe, Clarke -may- be an admin operative--or a Space Alien. And Black Helicopters pervade all.

Hell, there's a web site claiming Bush is a Space Alien. I might be willing to buy into that one.

[hang a left]

43. Yeah your right.

There was no advance knowledge whatsoever, that's why there were put options on American and United Airlines, some of which haven't been claimed yet for fear of being busted for foreknowledge.

Off my thread!

[Junkdrawer]

40. Republicans always use MIHOP to shut down investigations...

(Bush Critic): There are many, many unanswered questions about 9/11. And most disturbing of all are the indications that the administration impeded attempts to stop 9/11.

(Bush Defender): Are you saying that the President of the United States worked with the terrorists to kill 3000 Americans?

(Bush Critic): <<nervous laughter>> Of course not. It's just that there are questions...

And I've seen that little exchange played out on news programs again and again.

[KayLaw]

41. Please forgive me

I don't have the facts in front of me, but didn't Bush and Cheney take the entire month of July off though Bush had just started his job at the WH? Had they known the exact date of the attack, couldn't they have just been gone somewhere together?