Did Dean come off as an arrogant prick?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

Personally, I think Howard is the least progressive candidate in the race, but I have seen him referred to as a "raving lunatic" elsewhere. I confess that he does make everyone else look like a "moderate" - which may be good for Kucinich. Dean looks like a stereotypical "Republicrat".

But does he come across as very passionate or angry and strident? Would he not be more effective with a low-key approach to his very centrist message? No doubt, he is doing a great service by pulling all the other candidates back from the crevice of their left-wing march. It seems to me that all the candidates, except maybe Lieberman, who was already there, have moved right in this campaign on economic issues.

[glasschains]

1. Dean seems strange

His smile is actually frightening. It looks so forced and insincere. He seems very anal oriented in his dispositon.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

3. And the "smirk" isn't frightening.

Dean's smile will not lose the election.

[glasschains]

46. The topic is Dean

We aren't talking about *. Dean acts weird. He is very "forced". People want to like their candidate, if they don't like him they don't vote for him, sad, but true.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

81. Bush acts weird. He can't even talk.

Again, my counter example is proof that the American people do not vote on smiles or normalness to the exclusion of everything else.

You are nitpicking. The American people vote on the overall perception they have of a candidate. The American people perceive Kerry as a wishy-washy, prevaricating, liberal hedging his bets. And they perceive Kucinich as a effeminate, wacko weakling.

Americans like their leaders strong and no nonesense. Howard Dean is both things.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

95. yet another Deanite insulting other candidates like a kindergardener

Now Kucinich is "effeminate" - is that supposed to be an anti-gay slur? "wacko weakling" - and people on this thread have been saying I'm making this stuff up. Give me a break.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

107. You start a thread calling Dean an "arrogant prick" and then whine

when someone speaks the truth about your unviable candidate?

Kucinich just feeds the stereotype that middle America has about Democrats. He should drop out for the good of the party.

[Name removed]

124. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

127. Is that a threat?

[Mairead]

132. what are you talking about?

[ThorsteinVeblen]

134. "I'd put a sock in it, if I were you."

[Mairead]

140. If you're serious, then in your place I'd work really, really hard

at reading for comprehension rather than ammunition. No one could legitimately parse that as a threat.

[DemLikr]

130. Wow..."pillockry": what a BIG, impressive word

You must be vewy, vewy smart.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

141. actually, it's not a word

but I have to think the intended word was pillory. Next time you find a word you don't know DemLikr, use: http://m-w.com :hi:

[Mairead]

223. actually, it is a word

but i'd agree with your advice to DemLikr to use a dictionary rather than his ignorance

[Wonder]

161. Actually I think it would be funnier if Martin Short replaced Kooch

just for laughs!

[TLM]

142. Kucinich is effeminate... that's nothing new.

While we may like what he has to say, he still comes across like the Cousin Oliver in this bunch of candidates.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

151. Actually, Kucinich is manly - Dean is sort of a dandy

Dean comes across as the pampered priss, remember?

[ThorsteinVeblen]

153. Whatever you say.

[TLM]

188. I don't get that impression at all...

I've met Dean and he was anything but pampered or prissy.

He comes across as very strong and confident... and the way he connects with people is even better than Clinton.

But then, I know you've got nothing else to go on, so it isn't like reality is going to make any difference in your Dean bashing.

[Duder]

48. Dean wins smile ‘primary’

Politics is the art of getting people to like you, and a high-beam smile is generally regarded as a major asset in the process. On that basis, Los Angeles dentist Dr. Harold Katz has concluded that another man of medicine, Dr. Howard Dean, one of nine Democratic candidates for president, is the winner of “the nation’s first smile primary.”

Though Dean recently confessed that he could be “brusque” at times, Katz believes his smile more than makes up for it.

The contest involved a comparative study of facial musculature, dental hygiene and overall appearance. “Most importantly,” said Katz, the former Vermont governor “shows both his upper and lower teeth, an undeniable sign of confidence and strength.”

There is still some hope for the other candidates:

Katz’s specialty is the treatment of bad breath. No word yet on when on that primary will be held.

http://www.thehill.com/open_secrets/080603.aspx

[bitchkitty]

51. Anal oriented?

Can you please explain this term? And then could you explain your psychiatric qualificatiosn?

[onecitizen]

108. he seems anal oriented??

How have you come to that decision? His smile is frightening? How so? Please explain.

[devarsi]

198. Anal oriented?

And you diagnosed this...HOW?

Watching TV?

[Must_B_Free]

216. My God, you're exactly right!

"His smile is actually frightening. It looks so forced and insincere."

I thought the exact same thing. I think he has veneers that add thickness to his teeth, so they stick out too high like fake fingernails.

"He seems very anal oriented in his dispositon."

yeah he seems too conservative too me. Not who I would pick. I found Gephard refreshing after listening to Howard Dean.

I think he is the Republicans pick and they freepers are the grassroots internet support behind his movement.

I just don't buy the fact that a conservative is the front runner for democracy.

[Andromeda]

219. Excuse me...

Frightening? You've gotta be kidding me. You seem to be very anal in your description of Dean. I find what you said very offensive and beyond frightening.

[jagguy]

2. thats a little harsh

but he clearly has let his press clippings get to his head. And he really needs to get a public speaking coach.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

4. hate my thread? read this post

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=128&topic_id=6068&mesg_id=6068
to the DDF - pot, meet kettle

[JNelson6563]

162. Mommy!! Bobby did it first!!

Does somebody need a nap?

Wondering, if Dean gets the nom what will you do?

Julie

[ThorsteinVeblen]

5. Sour Grapes

DK showed his complete unviability as a presidential candidate last night.

Attacking Howard Dean will not change that.

[liberalnurse]

52. I thought so too.....

I'm from Ohio....so what....I think DK is loosing prespective a bit. He is a champion at identifying issues....I don't here reasonable cures.

[revcarol]

6. I'm glad you said it first.

He seemed to be so arrogant and macho, like: who are you to be questioning me? Instead of asking for the union members' votes, he just declared he was the only one who could win against Bush.Some of the others said they could win, but didn't imply they were the only ones who could win.

Smarmy and pandering is the way Dean came off to me. Flame away. Sometimes he seems almost as arrogant as Bush.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

8. maybe it's because Dean is so rich?

I've noticed that people born into lots of money and priviledge often seem to believe they are "entitled" to everything, and get quite upset when they don't get their way. In some extreme cases, you have adults acting like spoiled children.

I hope Dean can tone down his self-righteousness.

[Ripley]

18. Yeah, and Kerry, et al are so POOR.

Knock it off with the rich crap. Gee, does that mean only ghetto working class people are TRUE Democrats or progressives?

Give me one example of his self-righteousness, then tell me how Kucinich was anything but self-righteousness when he screams I DIDN'T VOTE FOR THE WAR OR NAFTA!

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

26. Knock it off with the rich crap? What, class war scaring you?

Why would any DEMOCRAT want to take away the one issue where the Democrats can destroy the Republicans? The Republicans are the ones usually saying "lay off the rich crap" - since after all, they are afraid of our "class war"

[Ripley]

29. Personal wealth is not a definition of how progressive one is.

You are insulting to every liberal who actually has money. You know some rich people don't screw everyone else and some people who have EARNED it, deserve it.

So attacking Dean because he made money as a doctor, or Kerry because he is married to an heiress is petty and trivial.

Unless you expect a janitor to get the nomination.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

37. I'm insulting to every liberal who actually has money?

Hope I didn't make anyone cry. Perhaps they can use their money to console themselves. Frankly, I don't give a damn.

I'd rather have an honest janitor as president than Bush or one of his clones in the Democratic party.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ripley]

44. So now if you have X amount of Dollars you are automatically a liar?

Only a janitor can be honest?

Well, buh-bye fairyland dweller!

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

45. what are you talking about?

who said only a janitor can be honest? I sure as hell didn't.

[TLM]

143. You continue to attack having money as if

having money means you can't be a good democrat or understand working people.

[searchingforlight]

85. Is he rich? How rich is he?

[TLM]

144. I think about 4 million...

He got some money from his father and invested it well.

[chimpymustgo]

9. Dean and Bush have very similar backgrounds.

It was pointed out in Time magazine. One of their grandmothers was in the other grandmother's wedding.

[Ripley]

20. Ooooh Ooooh NOW I WON'T SUPPORT DEAN.

Because of something his grandmother did.

Crissakes just because they went to Yale and come from the Northeast? Wow they are twins.

[TLM]

189. LOL! So let me get this straight....

It DOES matter that Dean's grandma went to a wedding for Bush's grandma...


It DOESN'T matter that Kerry and Bush were Skull & Bones frat brothers...

[stickdog]

106. Did he say he was the only one who could win?

No.

He said he had the best shot at winning.

He's right.

[TLM]

145. Do not expect honesty nor accuracy from Dean Bashers.

[Wonder]

167. at one point Dean said *IF* the democrats could win.

I thought that was interesting.

[bearfartinthewoods]

159. did you hear the Time mag editor on cspan this AM?

she made the point of just how similar bush and Dean's backgrounds are. even old family ties between the two families.

he may be a dem but i'm starting to wonder just how "different" he really is from bush. i find i have a helluva lot more in common with a working class moderate repub than i do with a blue blood lib. i'm not talking about policy but about the 'make' of the person. shared experiences and background breed a commonality that is hard to approach with someone of privilege.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

166. Bush, Dean, Kerry - same familes, same networks, same Yale fraternities

Makes you wonder if we really have a choice at all doesn't it?

Either vote for this rich, upper class aristocratic Yalie, or this one, or this one.

[Larkspur]

7. Dean comes across to me as someone sincere and genuinely wants to help

people.

He also is the only candidate who has a real clue whats going on and what needs to be done. Kucinich panders to the crowd, but his policies, especially his defense cutting policies, are ridiculous and will play right into Rove's handbook. Kucinich is the McGovern-like candidate, not Dean.

Dean is a pragmatic progressive with innovative ideas. We need that.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

11. Kucinich wants to cut Pentagon waste and fraud

Dennis isn't suggesting we make any cuts that will hurt our national security - isn't this what Gore proposed in his efficient government proposals?

[killbotfactory]

17. Where will 15% of the Defense Budget come from?

I don't think "gov't waste" is going to cover it. It's a non-answer everyone uses when they say they want to cut the budget.

Is DK going to beef up port security, or fully fund first responders?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

21. how about the Boeing handout?

Did't Rumsfeld say the Pentagon couldn't account for a third of their transactions? That's a lot of money. Maybe forget the waste, and just go after the FRAUD. Oh, and the corporate welfare too.

[killbotfactory]

23. Much easier said than done.

There is waste in everything people do, it's just the nature of huge gov't programs. Cutting spending isn't going to magically fix that, so what is DK's plan?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

28. not waste, FRAUD

and corporate welfare

[killbotfactory]

34. So what is the fraud and coporate welfare?

Find the pentagon budget and point out what Kucinich would cut.

So far, he's only mention ballistic missle defense. The budget in 2003 is almost to 400 billion, and that missle program costs 8 billion, so now you just have to account for approximately 52 billion in cuts.

[TLM]

147. Exactly... Dean wants to see this information BEFORE

he makes decisions about what to cut. Dean wants to make cuts like a surgeon... and Kucinich wants to do it like a axe wielding mad man.


Kucinich tries to make it sound like Dean is all for waste at the pentagon, when all Dean has said is that he does not support Kucinich's haphazard cut first and ask questions later policy.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

170. if you ignore 30 years of research and scholarship into Pentagon fraud

and waste, then sure, you can say Dean "wants to see this information BEFORE he makes decisions about what to cut" So, Dean hasn't read any of the thousands of studies, books, articles, and recommendations that the left has been making for 30 years?

For God's sake, even McCain has proposed cutting Pentagon corporate welfare - don't you remember our attacks on Newt Gingrich, how we called him a welfare queen because of all the Pentagon corporate welfare he was bringing into Georgia?

"Dean wants to make cuts like a surgeon" - ha, that is *so* precious :)

[TLM]

194. What part of Dean wants to see information did you not comprehend?

When I saw Dean speak he said that there are a lot of problems in the pentagon that need to be addressed, however that he does not support the idea of just blindly cutting funding without closely looking at what will be effected.

You desperately try to spin that as meaning Dean has never once read a single word about the problems at the pentagon or he supports pentagon waste, to facilitate the continuation of your flames. When the fact is that Dean simply wants to have information about the effects of a given cut before he makes it.

Kucinich doesn't seem to be able to think that far ahead.

[Mairead]

139. I don't know, but if I were the one cutting

I'd start with all the big-buck kill-from-a-distance stuff. All the blow-shit-up 'toys for boys'. And I'd emphasise instead pay and training for the low-rankers who do the actual bleeding. The training being focused on giving everyone capability in small-group infiltration and takeover, plus a second speciality in reconstruction (broadly defined). People who can surprise and knock off the bad guys in guerrilla-style attacks, and then actually stop and help the good guys put the place back together (on all levels) again. Give anyone who can qualify for such dual skills immediate promotion plus significant speciality pay. And ruthlessly drop anyone who kills or injures people needlessly.

In our current world, blow-shit-up-from-far-away weapons are useful mostly for war crimes and breaking the budget.

[bearfartinthewoods]

173. ask the low pay bleeders how they feel about the long distance stuff

they'll tell you it keeps them from bleeding.

[Mairead]

224. Having Hussein's military leadership bought off was what kept them

from the most bleeding, not the toys-for-boys. Remember all the incredulity 'how could they take over Baghdad so easily'? And then it came out that SmirkCo had simply bought off the mil leadership?

Pity they couldn't have bought them off to begin with, and saved all the killing and maiming. I bet that poor 12-y.o. kid would have liked that a lot more than losing his family and his arms.

[Nazgul35]

121. Another point that was lost in the debate was..

that Dean helped organize nurses at a hospital he was working at....something that isn't all that common....

I organized a union myself a while back and it was very sad to watch people who had been friends turn on each other for the small amount of cash offered by the management...and people who were friends in management take up the anti-union line....it's a harsh environment and when Dean said he had helped the nurses, my respect for him grew even more...

I think he's a genuine person and would encourage all democrats to go out and meet each candidate...

PS: if you ask me...which you didn't, I thought Al Sharpton won the debate....all the candidates but Sharpton and Mosley-Bruan didn't answer the questions they were asked....most came off as rehersed and trying to get their talking points out...Dean had a couple of answers that more resembled Sharpton and Bruan's approach....

And if you want to know what made my wife and I groan and yell at the TV...they were 1) Lieberman's refusal to shut the hell up when his time was up....and 2) anytime a candidate started with "when I was a boy"....groan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Terwilliger]

10. If Dean is a "Republicrat" then what does that make Kerry??

don't stow thrones

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

12. Demopublican?

People in glass houses, yadda yadda...

[Terwilliger]

19. so why is Gephardt in your "good" column

He's already proved that he's no friend to the Democratic party when he stabbed Daschle and other Dems in the back on the war resolution vote.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

25. If you are seriously interested in knowing...

Gephardt has spent his political life working for unions, workers, and progressive causes, just like Kucinich.

Political infighting and photo-ops bore me - stabbing Daschle in the back? Are you familiar with Daschle's record? Hell, I don't mind. Democrats getting all mad about Iraq is IDIOTIC - where we you when Clinton bombed Iraq on a weekly basis for 8 years? Where were you when Clinton bombed Serbia, including a whole lot of civilian institutions? Where were you when Clinton sent Marines to Haiti, and had them stand down as the anti-Aristide forces murdered and slaughtered every working class leader in the country? If your "anti-war" rhetoric is only against Republicans, you're a hypocrite aren't you? Democrats pretending to be anti-war is pretty damn silly, in my opinion. There has hardly been a more war-mongering group of people in the world than the Democratic party.

Anti-war speeches from unemployed medical personnel don't impress me either. Some politicans are on my side, and some aren't.

[Terwilliger]

61. Gephardt will never ever ever ever get my vote

there's that...and there are quite a few people who would easily agree...Dickhardt is a pandering simp who should stay behind the scenes and do his "good works"

Oh, and don't tell me about why I should dislike Democrats as a whole. I need no more ammunition.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

65. good for you

In my opinion, the state is incapable of being anti-war, and any politican who says he's anti-war, including my favorite Kucinich, is full of it.

The state can be pro-working class, if the state is in the hands of pro-working class organizations, like unions.

The proper place to fight against war is outside of the state, Mr. Libertarian Socialist. Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[Terwilliger]

70. The only way to fight against war is to get rid of pro-war twits

like your boy Gep, who was pro-war so he wouldn't be negatively affected by all the hoo-ha. Funny thing is, it killed him.

The state will be eradicated...war will be eradicated...and those who cause war and do nothing to stop it will be judged.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

76. anti-war twits become pro-war twits

the day they are elected. This is the nature of the state. Isn't this exactly what social libertarians have always said?

If anyone believe that Dean (or Kucinich) wouldn't start a pre-emptive war if they felt it was necessary is living in fantasy land. Don't rely on politicians to stop war.

[Terwilliger]

110. I don't...and thats why I dont like them

especially Gephardt

Isn't this exactly what social libertarians have always said?

Have they? who are "social libertarians"?

I do know that the state itself is its own reason for war. I know that the state perpetuates itself by having wars (and, if nothing else, having bogeymen to blame on war readiness) but that sure as SHIT doesn't mean that we should perpetually allow it to continue.

If you're right that the state must be abolished in order to stop war, then so be it. If the state can exist to serve its people, and make the necessity of peace the prime goal of its existence... Man, isn't that what Democrats are for? THEYRE DOING A PISS-POOR JOB!

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

122. abolish the state?

sounds good to me. In the meantime, I'm going to vote for candidates that are pro-working class, in our race that means Kucinich and Gephardt.

[Terwilliger]

138. Kerry, Dean, Edwards, and Graham are against the working class?

Quick! Somebody tell the campaign managers!

I seem to remember recently that some union outfit didn't like Gephardt at all and would not vote for him if he was the Dem nominee. I don't think his popularity is universal amongst unions.

[stickdog]

115. Because, because, because, because, because

Because of the wonderful things he does!

[Wonder]

164. LOL

ahhhhhhhh!

[Feanorcurufinwe]

87. f Dean is a "Republicrat" then what does that make Kerry??" A Democrat

[Unknown Known]

13. Dean is a doctor

What do you expect? Most doctors are arrogant assholes!

[ima_sinnic]

31. "most doctors are arrogant assholes"--??

my my, that's quite the sweeping generalization and sounds ignorant as hell.

I for one am glad Dean is a doctor. It requires a commitment of close to 10 years for education and training, so right away it shows self-sacrifice and intellectual capability--quite the contrast to the chimp in charge, who cruised through Yale and then Harvard Business School on his wealth privileges. Being a doctor also shows an interest in and concern for the health and welfare of others, an altruistic bent. Granted, some people become doctors solely motivated by greed, but from everything Dean has demonstrated in his life, words, and way of doing things, he's not one of those. Being a doctor brings him in close touch with the eccentricities and diverse uniquenesses of human beings--again, something Bush wouldn't know.

[fishnfla]

116. You are right of course but.....

The public perception is out there about Drs. in general. Every US citizen has come in contact with a stuck-up Dr at least once in their life. Dean must face that perception.

[ScreamingMeemie]

180. Hmmmmm....can you say stereotype????

I can honestly say I must have been lucky then. One of my "arrogant assholes" painted a picture for me last year, why? Because he likes us. Can we stick to the issues instead of tearing someone down because of who they are? Unless, of course, they are Reupublican--then, tear away.

[Jim Sagle]

14. This thread ain't nuthin' but shit.

[ibegurpard]

30. I can smell it through my screen.

Peeyeeew!

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

39. does this shit not stink?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=128&topic_id=6068&mesg_id=6068

arrogant and hypocritical

[Rex]

98. Ah yes, so you have to do a repeat of that thread

same shit, different actors...how thoughtful of you WCTV. Keeping the bar lowered I see. :eyes:

[janx]

100. Give it a rest. The fact is that Kucinich DID go over the top

last night. He'll might do better next time.

[bitchkitty]

58. Shades of TT!

You make me smile, hon!

G

[janx]

97. I know, G, I always get a kick out of that when I see it here too!

I hope Sagle keeps doing it!

[Forkboy]

75. lol

thanks Jim...I needed that laugh :)

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

15. Lawdy, people!

We get a candidate that can elucidate so many of the concerns we have expressed and speak truth to power without ambiguity, something that we have bitched carped and moaned about FOREVER, and we get a thread and posts like this. I know that most, if not all of you are supporters of other candidates, as is your wont and right, but really...arrogant? Compared to whom? Chimpy? Cardinal Richilieu would look like a humble man of god next to the ChimpBoy, and let's not even bring up HolyJoe!

Caveat: I suport no candidate, at this time, except for the NJ assembly candidate I am working for, and I ain't even tilting towards one of the presidential candidates. I need to hear a LOT more.

[CWebster]

42. Corzine is rich

and I would vote for him. Hell,I would vote for Lautenberg if they keep bringing him out of retirement. ;-)

[robbedvoter]

16. No. No one did (not even Kerry, who actually is one)

DK came out as strident, Lieberman clueless at times, Dean was sometimes so-so, sometimes just great. Everyone came out better than my expectations with Sharpton being the one and only to frame every issue just right.

[chimpymustgo]

24. I thought Edwards hit all the right notes.

eom

[MGKrebs]

22. Still early.

Dean's speaking style is improving. Still has a way to go, but he's getting there. He just struck me has being serious and focused. I think he was the only candidate there who actually stayed within the alotted time.

People keep trying to put him in a catagory, but I think he doesn't fit. He is kinda conservative on some things (gun control, balanced budget), liberal on others (anti-war, women's choice), and middle on others (civil unions, health care, education).

Putting labels is always tricky anyway. What was conservative yesterday might be middle today. And it seems to change more rapidly than it used to. Lieberman inadvertently illuminated this point last night. He started out talking about not looking to the past, but looking forward, then in the same sequence he said he wanted to pick up the torch of Clinton/Gore. He apparently doesn't consider Clinton/Gore the "past", but a lot has changed since 2000, and I definitely think that is the past.

[DianeK]

27. oh this promises to be SO much fun...

but really, if attacking his demeanor is the best you can come up with, i, for one don't think that can work because many people like me feel it is just about time that someone from the democratic party became justifiably angry...dean is now who dean has always been and i promise you this..there will be more than one occasion that he will plant his own foot squarely in his mouth..but i can also promise you that he is the one candidate that can pull us back to where we once belonged...it is amusing to me to see the other candidates try to outdean each other

[quinnox]

32. Yes

He does come off as an arrogant prick, but so do a lot of doctors.

[GumboYaYa]

33. LOL, this is getting old.

No matter what you think about Dean, he is a Democrat and he is much better than George Bush.

This vitriol against Dem candidates is absurd. If you can't say something nice about a candidate then you should keep your mouth shut. This is the time to contrast ourselves with Bush and present a positive vision for the future. If your candidate fails at attracting voters with his/her message it is your candidate's fault and not the fault of others in the field.

Instead of tearing down candidates be productive. Promote your message and campaign vigorously, but don't leave the field littered with bodies before the general election.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

40. good advice, please tell it to the Dean Defense Forces

or whatever they are calling themselves now.

[GumboYaYa]

43. Of course we all learned in kindergarten that

two wrongs do make a right. You justify your post by pointing to the wrongness of the similar posts by others.

Get over it and be active versus reactive. Reactionary BS never plays well.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

50. Dean's people have a coordinated campaign to slander other candidates

This isn't kindergarden, it's the fight to see who will become the next president of the world's only superpower. Politics is a dirty business, isn't it?

[ima_sinnic]

57. "coordinated campaign to slander other candidates"--??

that's simply not true and you sound ignorant as hell.

I see you've got the mealy-mouthed, boring, bland, hackneyed, same old same old Gephardt as your main pick. Un be LEE vable.

[GumboYaYa]

60. Yes, but we are all on the same team with a common goal.

Or at least that is what I though before I saw the animosity expressed by supporters of several different candidates on DU.

Please elaborate on Dean's coordinated campaign to slander other candidates. Remember that the truth is an absolute defense to slander. As I remember it there are several candidates who voted for the war. When Dean points that out it is not slander. DK does the same thing, is he slandering other candidates?

If you listen to Dean he frequently says any Dem candidate is better than GWB. He also says that if he is not the nominee he hopes the grassroots effort he has built will benefit the Dem nominee.

Instead of bitching and moaning about how unfair the Dean supporters are, do something positive.

I agree it is not kindergarten and you should stop acting like it is.

[indigo32]

63. That is absolutely false

and not at all what the Dean Defense Forces are about. They are about defending him from our wonderfully biased press (and also the DLC since they see a need to attack him).

[Terwilliger]

72. which means they'll attack anyone who attacks Dean

I'm sorry, but there are a LOT of people on this website who've got Dean on the brain, and they're acting more like trained sheep than informed citizens interested in supporting a particular candidate. Being one who bashes all equally I can say that ;-)

[TLM]

155. Dean supporters don't back down...

When someone in the press lies about our guy, we stand behind him and defend him with the truth. We fight the spin.

Guess that makes us bad democrats in the eyes of the DLC set.

[Terwilliger]

178. makes you nutcases...like the Gore freaks in 2000

Defending the positions of your candidate is very different from going on the attack.

Makes the Dean-Deanies more a militant partisan sect, doesn't it?

[TLM]

197. I guess your "Dean-Deanies" attack there makes you

a militant partisan as well.


Funny how whats good for the goose, means the gander is a nutcase.

[ibegurpard]

200. At least Terwilliger's attacks are across the entire spectrum.

He hasn't shown a propensity for singling any one candidate or group of "supporters" out for criticism up to this point.

[Dhalgren]

203. I have noticed a bit of

"over-the-top" zeal in some Dean supporters. There's just a bit of the "wild-eyed" in them. It's sort of becoming a religion to a lot of them.

Praise Howard, the true second coming!

[searchingforlight]

89. Do you have the info on that?

I would like to see it. Thanks.

[TLM]

152. Funny how when the Dean Bashers spew their BS...

and informed Dean supporters, of which there seems to be ever growing numbers, respond and point out errors in the attacks or facts that expose the attacks as bias and unfounded... suddenly the Dean Bashers try to spin that as "a coordinated campaign to slander other candidates."

When you can't beat him on message, and he gets more support than your guy, you attack the very idea of enthusiastic support itself as something inappropriate... pure Rove.

[Eloriel]

55. Dean Defense Forces

You seem to have some misconception about what they are which you are all too willing to spread by innuendo. For those who actually care about the truth about things, including DDF, here's their website, you can check it out yourself:

http://www.deandefense.org/

Eloriel

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

69. Dean supporters on DU have made overt, consistent, and coordinated

attacks on Kucinich's hair, looks, speaking style, including many kindergarden level insults. This is based on my personal observation on this forum for the last six months at least.

Dean supporters have lied, spread rumors, and consistently portrayed Gephardt, who is a liberal, as a Bush loving conservative, when it's Dean who is the conservative. This is based on my personal observation on this forum for the last six months at least.

Now perhaps there is some conspiracy of anti-Dean people posing as Dean supporters and making asses of themselves. I guess it could be true, but I don't buy into many conspiracy theories.

It seems to be exactly what it looks like - a campaign by wealthy white professionals to muscle out unions, blacks, and working class people from influence in the Democratic party - exactly what the DLC was designed to do. And Dean is the perfect candidate to do it. It's not the first time.

[killbotfactory]

71. It's my personal oberservation over the past six months that..

That's a bunch of crap.

Everyone's candidate gets insulted. Don't be a crybaby about it.

[ibegurpard]

73. Okay, listen sparky....

I don't know where your "personal observations" are coming from that Dean supporters are the principal slanderers of Kucinich but for your information HE WOULD BE MY SECOND CHOICE! I alerted the mods TWICE the night before last when a newbie disruptor posted a nasty juvenile limerick making fun of Kucinich. And as for you suddenly taking up the mantle of wronged Kucinich defender...it's a joke. You've been pushing Gephardt up until now...when you've suddenly sensed an opportunity to sow some discord between Dean and Kucinich supporters where none has existed before.
As for my disdain for Gephardt, he lost my respect LONG before I decided I was supporting Dean. His OVERT support for Bush on the Iraq resolution (when the majority of his caucus was organizing AGAINST his position) was nothing but a politically miscalculated effort to appear as a moderate in order to help his presidential bid. He undercut efforts that were underway to come up with a different solution. And lets not forget missing very close votes that are of crucial (at least SYMBOLIC) importance to issues that he is supposedly championing.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

82. well Kucinich is my first choice

and Gephardt my second, since he seems more "electable" - so what are you trying to say exactly?

The differences between Kucinich's positions and Dean's positions are greater than Dean's and Bush's.

[ibegurpard]

88. You seem to have a little problem with comprehension.

So let me spell it out for you:

You said:
Dean supporters on DU have made overt, consistent, and coordinated
attacks on Kucinich's hair, looks, speaking style, including many kindergarden level insults. This is based on my personal observation on this forum for the last six months at least.

To which I replied:
I don't know where your "personal observations" are coming from that Dean supporters are the principal slanderers of Kucinich but for your information HE WOULD BE MY SECOND CHOICE!

My comment was directed towards your gross and inaccurate generalization of Dean supporters as being behind slanders of Kucinich.

Do you need a picture or is that clear enough?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

102. maybe you should try reading this again?

what does Kucinich being your second choice have to do with anything at all? I said Dean supporters have been attacking Kucinich on his hair, looks, and speaking style with many kindergarden level insults. Just a look at today's posts will prove my point.

It's the height of hypocricy for Dean's supporters to get mad when Dean is attacked as an arrogant prick, considering what they have been saying about the other candidates.

[ibegurpard]

104. Maybe you should stop trying to change the subject.

I'm saying that you are DELIBERATELY mischaracterizing Dean supporters as being behind attacks on Kucinich. Why I support Dean is another matter altogether.

[Name removed]

113. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ibegurpard]

114. By your logic

I can then use you as the basis for making a leap that all Kucinich supporters are behind attacks on Dean. You don't need remedial reading classes...you need a few classes in logic.

[Name removed]

123. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ibegurpard]

125. Here's your quote:

"Dean supporters on DU have made overt, consistent, and coordinated
attacks on Kucinich's hair, looks, speaking style, including many kindergarden level insults. This is based on my personal observation on this forum for the last six months at least."

I'm looking for the qualifying "a few" (assuming that you even KNOW that anyone attacking Kucinich is actually a Dean supporter) in your statement. I don't see it. Perhaps I DO need those remedial reading classes.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

131. yet you add a qualifying "all"

interesting

[ibegurpard]

133. So are you saying that there ISN'T a concerted effort by

Dean supporters to slur Kucinich? I could agree that there might be a few...just like there are few Kerry, Edwards, Gephardt, Lieberman, et al. supporters who are slurring other candidates.

On edit: I didn't add ANYTHING to your quote. I posted it as is.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

135. here's the exact quote, again

"Dean supporters on DU have made overt, consistent, and coordinated
attacks on Kucinich's hair, looks, speaking style, including many kindergarden level insults. This is based on my personal observation on this forum for the last six months at least."

You suggested that since I didn't say "a few" I meant "all" - which is obviously wrong.

However, I've already struggled with A FEW Dean supporters and their constant twisting of people's words and spin, so I'll let you have the last word.

Go ahead:

[ibegurpard]

136. Thank you for the qualifier.

I'd suggest you use it in the future.
:)

[pansypoo53219]

93. gephardt electable???

He would loose on just having no eyebrows. the sheeple i am afraid to say are pro eyebrow. he went NOWHERE in 88.
and like bush isn't the biggest arrogant PRICK.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

105. yes, Americans are quite concerned about the eyebrow issue

I hear Dean has great eyebrows - too bad about his right-wing economic policies, FTAA, NAFTA, etc.

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TLM]

163. What a cry baby... good god.

"attacks on Kucinich's hair, looks, speaking style,"

Hair, looks and speaking style... you mean people are talking about how Kucinich looks and sounds? Amazing that people would be so focused on key points of a candidate's charisma.


"It seems to be exactly what it looks like - a campaign by wealthy white professionals to muscle out unions,"

Yeah that must be why Dean got the Wellstone award for his union support. You're talking out your ass.


"blacks, and working class people from influence in the Democratic party"

Total bullshit. You can go to www.meetup.com and see pictures from the now 75,000 people going to meetups and see that your description of Dean supporters is total bullshit.

However I expect the level of shrill desperation on the part of the Dean Bashers will continue to increase as Dean continues to gain more and more of the support they think their guy is somehow entitled to.

[ScreamingMeemie]

182. I find it funny that you would say this, because it seems that whenever

there is an anti-Dean post you seem to be the poster. Are you doing research for a psychology paper?????

Most of those posts seem to be worded just so, in an attmept to get as much flamage as you can. So I guess one would call you successful then? It's getting kind of old.

[sendero]

35. I missed it...

... so cannot comment definitively (is there an online archive?).

But if Dean is a bit arrogant lets get serious. It hasn't hurt his future rival one bit. Bush* is the most arrogant SOB I've ever seen and the sh*t of it is he has nothing to be arrogant about.

No brain, no wisdom, no speaking skills, nothing but the ability to surround himself with sycophants and ignore reality altogether.

No way Dean could be as bad as all that.

[CWebster]

36. O look, another Dean-bashing thread

from one of the usual perps.


;-)

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

41. payback sucks doesn't it?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=128&topic_id=6068&mesg_id=6068

[Northwind]

47. Payback?

Payback for whom? Did someone insult you personally? Tell me, do you also get hostile if someone dislikes a movie you enjoy? Are you like an adolecant that gets mad when anyone dislikes something you like?

Who is being payed back? And for what?

[CWebster]

53. nah

It's any excuse he can muster.

I guess a thread focusing on Kucinich is good enough reason as any to attack Dean.

[ibegurpard]

59. Assuming there is anything warranting "payback"

I'd suggest someone else take up the challenge...you aren't very good at it.

[bitchkitty]

67. Payback? Sweetheart, are

you even old enough to vote?

[janx]

112. That's what I was wondering. This is ridiculous!

!

[Forkboy]

79. Well thats mature

:eyes:

[Name removed]

126. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TLM]

169. Oh cry me a f-ing river....

You Dean Bahsers can dish it out, but you sure can't take it.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

54. I can take the heat

so can my candidates. It's not over yet. Fortunately, Dean can't buy his way into office.

[Nederland]

92. True, its not over yet...

...but its over for Kucinich. Given that he never had a chance, it was over before it even began.

[Cha]

150. Oh yeah, you "can take the heat" all right!

Or why would be starting these flame insulting threads?

[CWebster]

56. A little haughty for someone who just arrived

on the "support the troops" bandwagon.

[sangha]

66. A little haughty for someone who

isn't being honest about his own political beliefs.

[CWebster]

68. Oh, hi sanghy

How are ya how are ys how are ya?

[sangha]

74. I'm feeling

a lil haughty myself today.

Thanks for caring

[CWebster]

78. Feeling as you usual self,

I see..

[Name removed]

119. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[atldem]

62. You know what I think is so funny?

All the right wing nuts on television keep saying how far left Dean is and how he will only get votes from the far left extremeists. From what I can see on this board (which is mostly hard core left) is completely the opposite.

I like Dean. I don't agree with him on every issue, but he does seem electable to me. That is, only if the Dems can pull together and realize that you're never going to agree with a canadate on every issue and sometimes you have to think of the greater good. Do you think that Republicans agree with Bush on every issue? No way! But they know how to win elections. We have to present a united front and then work from within to try and change things we don't like. Sticking by you guns and only voting for someone you are 100% aligned with will only get Bush another 4yrs to screw things up. I don't think that this country can afford that. Just ask the Nader voters. While I respect someones firmly held beliefs, that vote got them exactly the opposite of the desired result.

I think that we should get the message out that Dean isn't as far left as the "right" would like to portray him to be. It isn't Democrats or Republicans who decide elections, it always comes down to the unregistered swing voters who make the outcome.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

86. Reagan didn't win in a landslide by pretending to be moderate

He ran as a right-wing conservative populist, and became one of the most popular presidents in modern history. Kucinich, or someone with Kucinich's platform, could win in a landslide by being a left-wing populist progressive.

Swing voters and the "middle" are just that - they will go either way, depending on what the message is. A left wing economic populist message would be quite popular with Americans right now.

[Nederland]

109. Kucinich a left wing Reagan?

LOL. That's rich. About the only thing DK has in common with Reagan is a head of hair unnaturally free of gray...

[TLM]

174. What are you smoking and how much is it per oz?

Kucinich would lose 40 states.

The man has all the charisma of a salted slug.


And like Ross Perot, he is heavy on complaints about the problems we face, but real light on workable solutions.

[Lars39]

64. Intense, maybe, but that's not a bad thing. : )

[DemocratSinceBirth]

77. IMHO

Dick Gephardt is the heir to the economic liberalism of FDR, Harry Truman, Hubert Humphrey, and Lyndon Baines Johnson.

And all those guys were fairly hawkish on national security.


Howard Dean with his mix of econmic conservatism and social liberalism reminds me of the late Paul Tsongas. He is the Paul Tsongas of this race with his anti-war stance giving him a distinguishing wrinkle.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

80. I'll take FDR, Harry Truman, Hubert Humphrey, and LBJ

over Paul Tsongas anyday!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

83. Dean's Politics

remind me of Bill Weld's politics.

[jpgray]

90. No--and this won't help Kucinich. DK remains a great candidate (nt)

[DemNoir]

91. Howard needs a tailor

His suit jacket did not fit well at all

[DemocratSinceBirth]

94. My Mom Likes Dean

I am not a big Dean fan.

She said to me you should like Dean because he says all the things about Bush that you say; the bad things.

That is the core of Dean's popularity. His sense of grievance with George W. Bush. He speaks to the anger and frustration that many Democrats have with Chimpy.

I can feel this sense of anger and frustration too but I don't think tapping into it can propel Dean into the White House.

[janx]

96. Did you see his American Restoration speech, the speech

he gave when he formally announced his candidacy? Have you listened to any other speeches he has given?

He's quite an optimist and has a lot of hope for our country. It's just that he refuses to let Chimpy and his administration take that away. That's what he means when he says that he wants his country back. It's a visionary and optimistic statement.

Your mother is right.

[CWebster]

99. No, you are absolutely right

Agreeing with everything is a much more effective strategy.

Ask Joe Lieberman, he'll tell you!


LOL!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

103. Sir

you have created a dichotomous situation where none exists.

My favorites for 04

Dick Gephardt

John Edwards

John Kerry

Bob Graham

Howard Dean

Carol Mosely Braun

Al Sharpton

Dennis Kucinich

Joe Lieberman

Because I don't embrace the policies of Howard Dean doesn't mean I embrace the policies of Joe Lieberman.

[stickdog]

101. Do anti-Dean zealots come off as desperate Rovian disinfo spewers?

I suppose it's a matter of opinion.

[Tinoire]

111. No

I'm not a Dean supporter and I dinged him for acting as if Kucinich had made up that bit about Dean considering raising the retirement age but I thought he came off well. He was composed, calm, and assured. There are times when I thought he came off as an arrogant (what was that word you used ;)) but not last night.

He came across very well.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

118. I Am Against Raising The Retirement Age

Haven't we undermined the safety net enough?

There's a big difference between a 65 year old coal miner and a 65 year old politician. The coal miner requires an earlier retirement because of the strain his job puts on his body.

[Tinoire]

156. I'm against it also.

I'm not endorsing Dean here... just saying he came off well as far as composure and demeanor went.

[John_H]

117. Man, just because your guy is getting desperate

you feel the need to attack another Dem candidate? No matter how much you hate it, DK will soon be back doing the terrific job he does fighting Chimpy in the house, and you'll either have to chose somebody else or vote Green.

[ibegurpard]

120. Don't let this person fool you.

They've been trumpeting Gephardt for a while now. They hate Dean and they've taken the opportunity to try to sow a little discord between Dean and Kucinich supporters because someone started a thread saying Kucinich seemed like a loon on last night's forum.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

128. slick one you are

After my tagline and consistent posting about the differences between Kucinich's and Gephardt's economic policies, versus Dean's DLC, pro-corporate economic stance, Dean people have been trying to woo Kucinich's supporters by de-emphasizing and spinning Dean's right-wing economics. I still remember the thread "Dean and Kucinich supporters need to stick together".

If anyone is attracted to Kucinich for his economic populism, they would be horrified by Dean's pro-corporate positions. The ONLY real issue they have in common is "anti-war" - and I've made my feeling known about the pro-war Democratic party posing as anti-war - and yes, I think Kucinich is just as much of a hypocrite on this as Dean is.

The Dean people are excellent politicians, I'll give them that.

As I've said over and over again, IF Kucinich drops out, I'll probably vote for Gephardt. If they both drop out, I'll vote for one of the candidates that can beat Bush - and Dean isn't one of them.

[ibegurpard]

129. I'm still waiting for some evidence

other than "personal observation" that there is an organized effort by Dean supporters to slur Kucinich.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

146. ha ha ha

Sure, when Dean invites me to his planning sessions, I'll bring a tape recorder - what you expect me to read minds? What else am I going to base my opinion on, aside from personal observations?

[ibegurpard]

148. I thought we were through...I guess not.

Answer a question for me:
Do you think that it would be accurate for me to categorize Kucinich supporters as slurring Dean based upon what YOU and a few other Kucinich supporters might be saying (assuming you really are Kucinich supporters)?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

154. It's already been done

I've heard the defense from Deanites that "we wouldn't have attacked Kucinich, except now his supporters attack Dean" - so sure.

[stickdog]

137. You aren't fooling anyone.

You may be pro-Gephardt, but you argue as if you were a Rovian pro.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

206. are you seriously implying that I'm a Rovian plant of some kind?

Seriously? Do you *really* think that? Do you think that everyone who is not enamoured of Dean, or outright hostile to him is a "Rovian pro"?

I thought Rove was just begging for Dean to win the nomination, since he thinks that Bush could beat Dean easily. What do you know, I agree with Rove - I must be a paid GOP operative!!!

Don't you think that if Rove was hiring people to post here - and I'm sure he is - he could do better than me :)

[Tinoire]

160. I am curious

as to why you say:
the pro-war Democratic party posing as anti-war - and yes, I think Kucinich is just as much of a hypocrite on this as Dean is.

Where have you seen any hypocrisy on Dennis' part? I'd understand if you had said abortion or even FBA but anti-war? I've only seen consistency there.

Help me out. Thanks

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

175. Tinoire,

I just don't buy any politician's posing as anti-war - the job of President is the Commander in Chief of the US Armed Forces. It would be awfully hypocritical of me to slam Dean for this and not Kucinich. True, Kucinich did actually *vote* against the Iraq War...

I just don't think it's possible for a president to be anti-war - I'd sure love to see an end to war, but no president is ever going to be able to end war - look how Wilson failed. In fact, Wilson's a perfect example - lots of anti-war rhetoric, and one of the biggest warmongers (not to mention racists) ever.

I'd prefer Kucinich back off the anti-war rhetoric, but he'd probably lose some of his base. He is a politician after all :)

[Terwilliger]

179. Kucinich is not anti-war

see what kinds of problems are caused by bad information?

[Wonder]

210. oh yes bad information

does make for poor judgement.

[Tinoire]

218. Sorry. Kucinich is antiwar. As antiwar as is humanly possible

No US politican has ever made a stand against war the way Kucinich has from the very beginning of his political days.

But I am not here to convince you or anyone else who can research this on their own because the facts are too readily available and we're all basically pig-headed people.

"I am happy to support Dennis Kucinich because I believe he is our only hope. Never before has it been so important that the nation rally around one candidate as today. This nation has been hijacked by right-wing politicians who are leading us on to certain disaster. Dennis Kucinich, with his progressive policies and love of peace, is the only candidate who can bring us back from the brink." ARUN GANDHI

Keywords to research US Department of Peace, Kosovo, Iraq Sanctions, Israel Palestine, ARUN GANDHI.

Kucinich's Web site describes the department's role as a way "to make war archaic through creating a paradigm shift in our culture for human development, for economic and political justice, and for violence control."

More concretely, he plans for the department to support worldwide disarmament, peace treaties and global education in peaceful means of solving potentially violent situations. Nationally, it would address domestic violence, spouse and child abuse, gangs, and police relations within neighborhoods.

Now if you want to make a case for Dean not being anti-war, I'm right up there with you for he has admitted this himself. Kucinich however has fought Clinton on the bombing of Kosovo (he & Tom Haydn sued Clinton over this if you recall), the daily bombings of Iraq, the horrors we're inflicting in Columbia.

He fought Albright & Clinton tooth and nail on the sanctions and never wavered. His spiritual foundation is very strongly pacifist for moral, humanistic reasons along the finest lines of Judaism, Christianity and Bhuddism.


Washington, DC -- Congressman Dennis J. Kucinich (D-OH) and 25 members of Congress have sent a letter to Secretary of State Madeleine Albright asking to meet with her to discuss issues related to United States sanctions policy in Iraq. This effort is also supported by the American Public Health Association, the oldest and largest organization of public health professionals in the world, representing more than 50,000 members from over 50 occupations of public health.

Congressional Briefing May 3, 2000

PRESS RELEASE

For Immediate Release Contact: John Edgell
Wednesday, April 19, 2000 [phone]

Kucinich, Members of Congress Ask Albright for Meeting on Iraq Sanctions
Policy

Washington, DC -- Congressman Dennis J. Kucinich (D-OH) and 25 members of Congress have sent a letter to Secretary of State Madeleine Albright asking to meet with her to discuss issues related to United States sanctions policy in Iraq. This effort is also supported by the American Public Health Association, the oldest and largest organization of public health professionals in the world, representing more than 50,000 members from over 50 occupations of public health.

"There is an urgent need to re-evaluate our sanctions policy and develop better ways of providing humanitarian aid to the people of Iraq," Kucinich said. "I believe that there is growing skepticism in Congress about this policy and I am encouraged by the support for a meeting with Secretary Albright."

The letter emphasizes the devastated public health infrastructure in Iraq, which is considered to be the leading cause of the spread of disease and illness, conditions that were almost non-existent in Iraq before the Gulf War. "We feel that the gravity of the public health crisis makes it urgent for us to rethink the sanctions policy at all levels, especially in regard to water purification materials," the letter states. "We recognize that many items needed for water and sanitation purposes are considered 'dual-use' items. But we believe that such items could be safely introduced with a careful system of monitoring by UN humanitarian officials."

According to a recent report by the International Committee of the Red Cross (February, 2000), "Since then , money and spare parts have not been available to repair sewage works and purification plants, which are often working at reduced capacity, or not at all. This has led to an overall deterioration in the quality and quantity of drinking water and the rapid spread of infectious disease, such as cholera."

In an effort to continue the dialogue on sanctions in Congress, Rep.
Kucinich will host a public briefing on the current sanctions policy on Iraq, its effect on the Iraqi civilian population and its impact on the Iraqi regime. The briefing will take place on May 3, 2000 beginning at 3:00 pm in room 2203 Rayburn. Speakers include: Hans Von Sponeck, former UN Oil-for-Food Program Director; Denis Halliday, former UN Humanitarian Coordinator in Iraq; and Scott Ritter, former Senior UNSCOM

Weapons Inspector.

Co-signers:

Reps. David Bonior (MI)
John Conyers (MI)
Cynthia McKinney (GA)
William Jefferson (LA)
Sheila Jackson-Lee (TX)
Maurice Hinchey (NY)
William Clay (MO)
Peter DeFazio (OR)
Jesse Jackson, Jr. (IL)
Lynn Rivers (MI)
John Olver (MA)
Tom Sawyer (OH)
Barbara Lee (CA)
Jose Serrano (NY)
Sherrod Brown (OH)
Gregory Meeks (NY)
Collin Peterson (MN)
Carolyn Kilpatrick (MI)
Pete Stark (CA)
Nick Rahall (WV)
Bruce Vento (MN)
Eleanor Holmes Norton (DC)
David Minge (MN)
Tammy Baldwin (WI)
Xavier Becerra (CA)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.iraqwar.org/march.htm

[Quahog]

202. Yes, it's true, WCTV

No politician is anti-war. They all love war. Studies have shown, in fact, that there is an indisolvable link between being a war-monger and going into politics. They are mutually inclusive.

So if you see someone in the political arena, you know that they are pro-war. It was as true of MLK and Ghandi as it is of Kucinich and Dean. Bloodthirsty, baby-slaughtering hawks, the whole lot of them.

The nice thing is, since we KNOW that they are all war mongers by virtue of the fact that they are now politicians, we can now stop arguing about which candidate is for or against war! Case closed!

Now we can move on to why Gephardt has been a total no-show in fighting ShrubCo's dozens of other legislative horrors.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

211. MLK and Ghandi were commanders-in-chief of military forces???

Hadn't heard that one. ANYONE running for president is running for commander-in-chief of the military.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

220. Ghandi Didn't Have All The Answers

He urged the Jews to use passive resistance against Hitler.

Non-violence worked for Ghandhi in the same manner that it worked for MLK. They pricked the conscience of the elites.

Fortunately for MLK and Ghandi the American and British elites were amenable to accommodation.

It didn't work very well in the Soviet Union.

As for MLK he chose passive resistance as a tactic to achieve a political end.


I don't think MLK was a pacifist that would have opposed all wars even those that are just.

[Tinoire]

215. I think he did a lot more than just vote

What I like about Kucinich is precisely that anti-war stance because he's been totally consistent from the day he sponsored an antiwar
resolution to when he demanded evidence of the WMDs. He really impressed me when he alone voted against authorizing Bush to wage war on Iraq. He also appeared at anti-war rallies and at least one march- I have absolute faith in his sincerity.

I do understand your point though about the near impossibility of truly being anti-war as President- but I think with Kucinich we'll be as close as is humanly possible!

You remember this don't you? From last year? When I first heard it- all I could think was "and we got the chimp"...

Peace
----

A Prayer for America February 17, 2002


(to be sung as an overture for America) "My country 'tis of thee. Sweet land of liberty of thee I sing. . . .
From every mountain side, let freedom ring. . . . Long may our land be bright. With freedom's holy light. . . ."
" Oh say does that star spangled banner yet wave. O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?"
"America, America, God shed grace on thee. And crown thy good with brotherhood from sea to shining sea. . . . "

I offer these brief remarks today as a prayer for our country, with love of democracy, as a celebration of our country. With love for our country.With hope for our country. With a belief that the light of freedom cannot be extinguished as long as it is inside of us. With a belief that freedom rings resoundingly in a democracy each time we speak freely. With the understanding that freedom stirs the human heart and fear stills it. With the belief that a free people cannot walk in fear and faith at the same time.

With the understanding that there is a deeper truth expressed in the unity of the United States. That implicate in the union of our country is the union of all people. That all people are essentially one. That the world is interconnected not only on the material level of economics, trade, communication, and transportation, but innerconnected through human consciousness, through the human heart, through the heart of the world, through the simply expressed impulse and yearning to be and to breathe free. I offer this prayer for America.

Let us pray that our nation will remember that the unfolding of the promise of democracy in our nation paralleled the striving for civil rights. That is why we must challenge the rationale of the Patriot Act. We must ask why should America put aside guarantees of constitutional justice?

How can we justify in effect canceling the First Amendment and the right of free speech, the right to peaceably assemble?
How can we justify in effect canceling the Fourth Amendment, probable cause, the prohibitions against unreasonable search and seizure?
How can we justify in effect canceling the Fifth Amendment, nullifying due process, and allowing for indefinite incarceration without a trial?
How can we justify in effect canceling the Sixth Amendment, the right to prompt and public trial?
How can we justify in effect canceling the Eighth Amendment which protects against cruel and unusual punishment?



We cannot justify widespread wiretaps and internet surveillance without judicial supervision, let alone with it. We cannot justify secret searches without a warrant. We cannot justify giving the Attorney General the ability to designate domestic terror groups. We cannot justify giving the FBI total access to any type of data which may exist in any system anywhere such as medical records and financial records.

We cannot justify giving the CIA the ability to target people in this country for intelligence surveillance. We cannot justify a government which takes from the people our right to privacy and then assumes for its own operations a right to total secrecy. The Attorney General recently covered up a statue of Lady Justice showing her bosom as if to underscore there is no danger of justice exposing herself at this time, before this administration.

Let us pray that our nation's leaders will not be overcome with fear. Because today there is great fear in our great Capitol. And this must be understood before we can ask about the shortcomings of Congress in the current environment. The great fear began when we had to evacuate the Capitol on September 11. It continued when we had to leave the Capitol again when a bomb scare occurred as members were pressing the CIA during a secret
briefing. It continued when we abandoned Washington when anthrax, possibly from a government lab, arrived in the mail. It continued when the Attorney General declared a nationwide terror alert and then the Administration
brought the destructive Patriot Bill to the floor of the House. It continued in the release of the Bin Laden tapes at the same time the President was announcing the withdrawal from the ABM treaty. It remains present in the
cordoning off of the Capitol. It is present in the camouflaged armed national guardsmen who greet members of Congress each day we enter the Capitol campus. It is present in the labyrinth of concrete barriers through which we must pass each time we go to vote. The trappings of a state of siege trap us in a state of fear, ill equipped to deal with the Patriot Games, the Mind Games, the War Games of an unelected President and his unelected Vice President.

Let us pray that our country will stop this war. "To promote the common defense" is one of the formational principles of America. Our Congress gave the President the ability to respond to the tragedy of September the Eleventh. We licensed a response to those who helped bring the terror of September the Eleventh. But we the people and our elected representatives must reserve the right to measure the response, to proportion the response, to challenge the response, and to correct the response.

Because we did not authorize the invasion of Iraq.
We did not authorize the invasion of Iran.
We did not authorize the invasion of North Korea.
We did not authorize the bombing of civilians in Afghanistan.
We did not authorize permanent detainees in Guantanamo Bay.
We did not authorize the withdrawal from the Geneva Convention.
We did not authorize military tribunals suspending due process and habeas corpus.
We did not authorize assassination squads.
We did not authorize the resurrection of COINTELPRO.
We did not authorize the repeal of the Bill of Rights.
We did not authorize the revocation of the Constitution.
We did not authorize national identity cards.
We did not authorize the eye of Big Brother to peer from cameras throughout our cities.
We did not authorize an eye for an eye.
Nor did we ask that the blood of innocent people, who perished on September 11, be avenged with the blood of innocent villagers in Afghanistan.
We did not authorize the administration to wage war anytime, anywhere, anyhow it pleases.
We did not authorize war without end.
We did not authorize a permanent war economy.

Yet we are upon the threshold of a permanent war economy. The President has requested a $45.6 billion increase in military spending. All defense-related programs will cost close to $400 billion. Consider that the Department of
Defense has never passed an independent audit. Consider that the Inspector General has notified Congress that the Pentagon cannot properly account for $1.2 trillion in transactions. Consider that in recent years the Dept. of
Defense could not match $22 billion worth of expenditures to the items it purchased, wrote off, as lost, billions of dollars worth of in-transit inventory and stored nearly $30 billion worth of spare parts it did not need.

Yet the defense budget grows with more money for weapons systems to fight a cold war which ended, weapon systems in search of new enemies to create new wars. This has nothing to do with fighting terror. This has everything to do with fueling a military industrial machine with the treasure of our nation, risking the future of our nation, risking democracy itself with the militarization of thought which follows the militarization of the budget.

Let us pray for our children. Our children deserve a world without end. Not a war without end. Our children deserve a world free of the terror of hunger, free of the terror of poor health care, free of the terror of homelessness, free of the terror of ignorance, free of the terror of hopelessness, free of the terror of policies which are committed to a world view which is not appropriate for the survival of a free people, not appropriate for the survival of democratic values, not appropriate for the survival of our nation, and not appropriate for the survival of the world.

Let us pray that we have the courage and the will as a people and as a nation to shore ourselves up, to reclaim from the ruins of September the Eleventh our democratic traditions. Let us declare our love for democracy. Let us declare our intent for peace. Let us work to make nonviolence an organizing principle in our own society. Let us recommit ourselves to the slow and painstaking work of statecraft, which sees peace, not war as being inevitable. Let us work for a world where someday war becomes archaic.

That is the vision which the proposal to create a Department of Peace envisions. Forty-three members of congress are now cosponsoring the legislation. Let us work for a world where nuclear disarmament is an imperative. That is why we must begin by insisting on the commitments of the ABM treaty. That is why we must be steadfast for nonproliferation.

Let us work for a world where America can lead the way in banning weapons of mass destruction not only from our land and sea and sky but from outer space itself. That is the vision of HR 3616: A universe free of fear. Where we can look up at God's creation in the stars and imagine infinite wisdom, infinite peace, infinite possibilities, not infinite war, because we are taught that the kingdom will come on earth as it is in heaven.

Let us pray that we have the courage to replace the images of death which haunt us, the layers of images of September the Eleventh, faded into images of patriotism, spliced into images of military mobilization, jump cut into
images of our secular celebrations of the World Series, New Year's Eve, the Superbowl, the Olympics, the strobic flashes which touch our deepest fears, let us replace those images with the work of human relations, reaching out to people, helping our own citizens here at home, lifting the plight of the poor everywhere. That is the America which has the ability to rally the support of the world. That is the America which stands not in pursuit of an axis of evil, but which is itself at the axis of hope and faith and peace and freedom.

America, America. God shed grace on thee. Crown thy good, America. Not with weapons of mass destruction. Not with invocations of an axis of evil. Not through breaking international treaties. Not through establishing America as king of a unipolar world. Crown thy good America.

America, America. Let us pray for our country. Let us love our country. Let us defend our country not only from the threats without but from the threats within. Crown thy good, America. Crown thy good with brotherhood, and sisterhood. And crown thy good with compassion and restraint and forbearance and a commitment to peace, to democracy, to economic justice here at home and throughout the world. Crown thy good, America. Crown thy good America. Crown thy good.

Thank you.
http://www.kucinich.net/speeches/speech1.htm

[TLM]

186. Load of crap... nothing more pro-corporate than supporting GWII

Which Gephardt did... he supported a war for corporate profit. He supported the slaughter of Iraqi civilians so Halliburton and Carlyle could pocket billions in tax money.


Dean did not.

Dean supports adding labor, safety, and environmental standards to NAFTA and other trade agreements.

Dean wants to hold corporations to the same standards overseas as they would be held to in the US. This not only prevents the abuse of laborers in other countries but removes the incentive for corporations to move jobs overseas to escape those standards in the first place.

If a corporation does move overseas, Dean supports allowing unions to organize the workers.

Dean also supports requiring that corporations who move their tax HQ offshore to avoid paying their taxes, be classified as foreign corporations and not be allowed to get government defense contracts.

Dean also supports putting resources back into infrastructure development to help replace manufacturing jobs that have been relocated over seas, which means good jobs for working men and women here at home.

Dean also support putting resources into small businesses, because they don’t move overseas.

So to claim Dean is some right wing corporate shill is dishonest bullshit and you know it.

[Southsideirish]

149. No, but you do.

Everytime I see Kucinich in a debate he looks more and more ridiclous. I used to admire him but no more.

[Wonder]

157. Yes He Did Didn't He!

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

158. This whole thread speaks volumes about Dean supporters

The post is almost a word-for-word copy of the anti-Kucinich thread from earlier, which names and a few words switched around.

The Dean supporters responsded to the Kucinich's thread, agreeing with the juvenile attacks on Kucinich. Now, they feign shock and anger that someone would stoop so low to attack Dean.

What's amazing is they never seem to realize their own double-standards. Now that's either just PR from a well-organized political hit squad, or it's actually a reflection of the privlidege and entitlement that Dean and his supporters feel.

[ibegurpard]

165. Actually, this whole thread speaks volumes about YOU

I'm not going to make the same insane leap of logic that you do in assuming that you speak for all people supporting Kucinich in categorizing Dean supporters as being behind attacks on Kucinich. In reference to the other thread, there are attacks on Kucinich's forum performance coming from many people who are supporting different candidates...yet you somehow try to pin it all on Dean supporters. Why is that?
I didn't SEE the forum last night so I have no comment about Kucinich's performance or Dean's performance.
What you DON'T seem to comprehend is that people who are supporting different political candidates have many different opinions and reasons for that support. They are NOT monolithic.
My reasons for supporting Dean include the fact that he has been vocal in speaking out against Bush's policies and against Democrats who seem unwilling or unable to criticize Bush. I admire Kucinich for the same reasons. That is why they are my top two candidates despite differences on a number of policies.

[ScreamingMeemie]

183. EXCELLENT post...you beat me to it.

[GumboYaYa]

168. Be careful with that broad brush of yours.

The principle difference between the Kucinich post and you post is that the Kucinich post was made by a Kucinich supporter. The post praised Kucinich for his "excellent" message but asked about the delivery.

You parody the Kucinich post and try to make your's as benign as the Kucinich post by copying the stylistic elements of the latter. Unfortunately you can not put aside your disdain for Dean long enough to effectively make use the literary device you chose. Your post uses code words to impart your disdain, like substituting "excellent" message with "centrist" message. Combine this with your constant campaign to discredit Dean and his supporters and your intentions are obvious and clearly not the same as the person who posted the Kucinich question.

Additionally, you like to lump all Dean supporters into one group, but don't apply the same standards to the other candidates' supporters. It looks to me like you just have an ax to grind b/c your candidate is clearly not going far in this election. Give it up and do something positive.

[Wonder]

171. Could it be Kucinich has a small Napolean complex but

with his heart in the right place? It was hard to tell really, but he was like a rough puppy and it seemed to me in stature he is not tall.

[ibegurpard]

172. So what?

This thread isn't about Kucinich.

[Wonder]

177. Oh please don't drag me into this

I'm mostly just listening.

[GumboYaYa]

176. Kucinich is dead spot right on most issues

IMO. If he had any chance at winning I would have a tough time choosing between him and Dean.

The reality is that Kucinich is minor canddate for a variety of reasons, most of them not legitimate. He recognizes that and any of his supporters who are honest recognize that. He is taking a decent political strategy by trying to distinguish himself from Dean and win over the progressive/antiwar camp of Dean's support. Personally I think that train has leftthe station already.

I don't think it is fair to attribute a "Napoleonic complex" to Kucinich, to me it looks like more of a calculated political gamble. Dennis may be small in stature, but he is big in principles and heart.

[Wonder]

181. "but he is big in principles and heart"

didn't I say a napolean complex with his heart in the right place. I believe that is what I meant. I agree he is big in principles and heart. I was just commenting on his bark, his demeanor, and his presentation. I am still not sure who my vote is going to and regardless of where it is going, from what I have read it, I agree Kooch might have the kind of departure I am interested in, however, it looks like the final contest will be between --- Dean --- Kerry --- and Gep.

My list keeps changing and all and all I am not sure any one of the three I have listed speaks in any real inspiring way regarding this departure from status quo I feel is needed to save the sinking ship, but I would rather not have to defend that position right now.

[GumboYaYa]

196. We aren't disagreeing about DK's heart.

I just think his attitude is a calulated political gambit and not a character flaw.

[Wonder]

207. oh it is okay with me if you disagree about kooch

I am not yet sold on anyone yet. I will vote. That is the only thing I can say for sure at this time, and so far I am not as wild about Dean as many people seem to be. I like to fool around with free associations, if nothing else, by the end of the thread. at least I feel somewhat amused.

[TLM]

199. Isn't small Napolean complex redundant?

[Wonder]

208. yes and no

I meant that he suffered perhaps just a little bit with the complex.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

185. I do wish this would stop

When I talk about Dean supporters, it's obvious I am not talking about ALL Dean's supporters - believe it or not, I don't think that Deanites are some sort of cult group.

Do you think that all the pro-Bush rhetoric just comes from "people who really respond to Bush's wonderful message"? Of course not - it's politics - it's PR - it's astroturfing. How gullible do you think I am?

I've just noticed a lot of the same style of rhetoric coming from the Dean camp - especially the really distastful "feelings" posts I've been reading lately. You know like:

Wow, Dean just makes me FEEL so hopeful!

Dean is so optimistic!

Dean's campaign has the energy of a runaway freight train - why is he so popular? (thank you Lisa Simpson)

Bush looks so good in his flight uniform - can you imagine Kennedy doing that?

Oops sorry, that one's from the other rich Yalie in the race.

Dean is my least favorite candidate because he is opposed to the issues I feel most strongly about - but he is also the most clever at spinning them. Look, we've had riots in every major city in America (and all over the world) over NAFTA, GATT, the WTO, IMF, and the other corporate globalization groups. That energy could have been put into a Democratic primary to elect someone who would stop it.

Instead, we're getting Dean - a firm supporter of corporate globalization - and yet another wealthy, elitist, out of touch liberal - from Yale no less.

If you don't like my posts, put me on ignore. If you don't like our new global corporate government, and Dean's support of it, feel free to put your head in the sand. I certainly won't.

[ibegurpard]

187. Finally a post I can't argue with.

You've stated your opinions and why you don't like Dean and you're not attempting to label everyone else.
We're finally getting somewhere.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

190. you're finally listening

I've been posting this about Dean over and over and over again. When Deanites start attacking Kucinich over his hair or Gephardt over his eyebrows I'll just respond in turn.

The best part is it's impossible for certain Dean supporters to hide the fact they are posting from talking points. Dean's good at astro-turfing, but not as good as the Bush people - yet.

[ScreamingMeemie]

191. As one who has never bashed Kucinich, I can see why people would after

days of reading your nonsensical rants. Lighten up, we're all on the same side.

[ibegurpard]

192. Damn.

I thought we were actually getting somewhere but you just started it again.
I'm not aware of such thing as a DEANITE. There are people who support Dean, myself included, and there are people who support other candidates. Should I start labelling anyone who attacks Dean as a Kucinichite? Should I assume that ALL attacks on Dean are from Kucinich supporters? Or Kerry supporters? Or Gephardts supporters? Impossible to hide the fact that they are posting from talking points? Are your statements direct from the Kucinich (or should I say Gephardt campaign since that seemed to be who you were gung-ho for until today)?
Stick to your opinions about CANDIDATES and stop trying to pigeonhole other people on this board.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

209. well that's obviously not true

never mind. Anyone who wants to read my posts over the last year or so can, if the archives are up. I have nothing to hide.

Okay, I'll just try to explain this once more - even though I don't think you are seriously interested - Deanite - as in a PAID operative of the Dean campaign. I know lots of people who have read some fawning press over Dean, and may support him, but most of them don't know anything about his history or his positions, other than some feel-good anti-war rhetoric.

"'m not aware of such thing as a DEANITE. There are people who support Dean, myself included, and there are people who support other candidates. Should I start labelling anyone who attacks Dean as a Kucinichite? Should I assume that ALL attacks on Dean are from Kucinich supporters?"

See, that doesn't in any way address ANYTHING that I've said - you're just spinning wheels, and constructing strawmen. That makes me think you're engaged in disinformation, not conversation, and not even rhetoric.

"or should I say Gephardt campaign since that seemed to be who you were gung-ho for until today"

See, that's just a LIE - any a quick trip to the archives proves it. I've been a strong Kucinich supporter since I first heard about the man, at least over 6 months ago.

Go on:

[GumboYaYa]

193. I am completely confused now.

I thought you disliked the Dean supporters because they attack other candidates. Now you dislike us because we have to many feel-good messages. I think you just don't like Dean and the support he has generated and are looking for reasons to complain.

Personally I like DK a lot. Unfortunately, I don't think a true liberal like DK has a snowball's chance in hell of winning the general election. Same goes for Sharpton.

The death penalty is a big issue for me and Dean is on the wrong side of that, however on balance I like Dean and think he has a chance at getting the nomination. As I have said consistently, I will work for any true Dem (read not Lieberman) to get elected.

I hope that by election time you come around to the same place and we are fighting together against Bush.

[TLM]

201. More of this corporate clap trap....

Gephardt he supported a war for corporate profit. He supported the slaughter of Iraqi civilians so Halliburton and Carlyle could pocket billions in tax money.


Dean did not.

Dean supports adding labor, safety, and environmental standards to NAFTA and other trade agreements.

Dean wants to hold corporations to the same standards overseas as they would be held to in the US. This not only prevents the abuse of laborers in other countries but removes the incentive for corporations to move jobs overseas to escape those standards in the first place.

If a corporation does move overseas, Dean supports allowing unions to organize the workers.

Dean also supports requiring that corporations who move their tax HQ offshore to avoid paying their taxes, be classified as foreign corporations and not be allowed to get government defense contracts.

Dean also supports putting resources back into infrastructure development to help replace manufacturing jobs that have been relocated over seas, which means good jobs for working men and women here at home.

Dean also support putting resources into small businesses, because they don’t move overseas.

So to claim Dean is some right wing corporate shill is dishonest bullshit and you know it.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

212. Dean's pathetic spin on his pro-corporate record is BS

And I'd bet money that YOU are fully aware of it, and support it.

[indigo32]

184. Actually

there are only a few of the same people in both threads...and frankly I don't remember whom Kentuck supports. Look none of our candidates is the antichrist. Support whom you like.... and I'll support whom I like.

[w4rma]

195. Question. How much is the RNC paying you to spread false rumors, WCTV?

ABC's The Note: RNC's/Rove's strategy for interfering in the Dem primary
Circle of Blue
A Political Week More Fun Than an Archie Comic!
...
At some point, somebody should take all the e-mailed press releases from the crackerjack research team at the Republican National Committee attacking the Democratic presidential candidates, print them out, and publish them in a bound, leatherette hard copy edition.

Like a fine Julie Teer quote LINK, or a "Breck Girl" anonymous missile from a "Bush adviser," these releases are intended to make mischief in the Democratic nomination fight — destabilize things as much as they can, dragging the process out as long as possible, trying to produce as weak a Democratic nominee as they can in the end, and basically playing bad cop, so the president can stay above the fray until the last possible moment.

These releases, read in their totality, are brilliant, but they can also cause some cognitive dissonance, because they do hit on some contradictory themes (sometimes, for example, attacking a candidate for being too liberal, but, sometimes, attacking someone for being to conservative).

The main themes are that one or more of the Democratic candidates are:

1. missing too many votes
2. changing their positions
3. itching to raise your taxes
4. inconsistent
5. attacking each other
6. too negative about President Bush (Note the irony!)
7. wimpy, effeminate, and crass
8. obstructionist
9. unconcerned with homeland security
10. borderline communist (ok: we are — pretty much — kidding about that one)

The RNC attacking the Democratic candidates is dog-bites-man, except, pace Karl Rove, this is arguably the most organized operation of this type in the modern era (You should see their tape library!!!).
...
http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/TheNote/TheNote_July14.html

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

213. heh, I could ask how much Rove is paying to get Dean to win the primary

"Question. How much is the RNC paying you to spread false rumors, WCTV?"

I thought it was against DU rules to ask that question, if it isn't boy have I been missing some opportunities.

So I guess, how much has Rove been paying people to call Kucinich "effeminate" - how about asking the person who said that?

I've posted criticism of DEAN and DEAN'S political team. Usually, I get personally attacked for this. Since I'm human, when I get personally attacked, I tend to respond in kind.

And you know what - I am FIRMLY opposed to communism. Hence one of the major problems we have right now - DEMOCRATS who are openly collaborating with the communist regime in China - not to mention all the Republicans.

Look, every bit of political rhetoric I'm using I've learned RIGHT HERE - on DU - pretending that anyone who dares to criticize Dean is a Rovian plant is either stupid, or dirty tricks.

[dpbrown]

204. Pretty much

Yup. But I think that's the persona he's trying to cultivate.

[ibegurpard]

205. Ohmigod!

Look at all these Kucinich supporters attacking Dean! Is there some kind of organized campaign going on here? Shall I start a thread?

:eyes:

[CBHagman]

214. I don't know, but look what he's running against

Somehow the term "arrogant prick" always brings to mind a certain beastie living at 1600 Pennsylvania.

[West Coast Democrat]

217. He came off as stiffer than Al Gore........

and that was my impression the first time I saw him on TV several months ago.

A note: I'm undecided and critical of all the candidates at this point.

[0007]

221. Dean will be there when it's count most

Ya can hear anything from Dean basher and junior lovers.

[PATRICK]

222. We could lighten up a bit

Dean is only letting his enthusiasm fire up what had been a traditional low key performance. And it comes across still as natural. Trying to portray momentum and inevitability, but with justificvation because I am sure he can feel his real support. You can only put on an enthusiastic act so long. Usually you can easily tell who is bluffing or on the ropes or overreaching.

Dean is letting it all out. How else can he win? Do we want people cautiously muffled and inoffensive so the media can forget them? He's doing a great job so far, campaign wise. And campiagning successfully is what is all about when the top contenders are all close to each other and us on the issues. (I said close. I know differences are not just nitpicking, but these guys are all good).

Keeping fired up and outspoken. Never letting a GOP challenge go unanswered. Motivating the voters. Letting the electorate decide. Sounds very good so far. Lieberman was even doing good until he turned DLC zealot out of pique at having zero campaign traction.

[Skinner]

225. I'm locking this thread.

Techincally, it's in compliance with our temporary guidelines because it was started before 11:00AM. But I am going to lock the more egregious offenses if I become aware of them.

Skinner
DU Admin