Secret 40 yr. old Vatican pedophilia document REVEALED

[Liberator_Rev]

"A Houston lawyer has discovered a 40-year-old document supposedly explaining how to deal with sex abuse in the Catholic Church.

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/news/80403_local_catholicchurch.html

Some say the document is a cover-up for the church.
Attorney Daniel Shea says this document could shake the foundation of the Catholic Church."



at http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/about/pio_nono.html

[Loonman]

1. Hmmm....

Interesting.....verrrry interesting.

I see how not much has changed since Roman Emperor Constantine's days.

[Blue_Chill]

2. Where's the document?

I read the story (which was mostly one sided) and would love to see the actual document. Until then......

[flyingfish]

4. Yeah, very one-sided article

And something does not seem right about the story.

[BlueState]

6. Yes I agree

The church which apparantely acknowledges the existence of a document,
which sparks my interest a little, says:

"The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops says the 1962 document is only type-specific to what happens during the sacrament of confession, in which what is told to a priest is kept confidential."

This would be no great revelation and consistent with known Catholic teaching. Heck, its been the subject of television police shows - the ethical and moral dilemna posed by a priest who becomes aware, by the sacrament of confession, of a serious crime.

I would be curious to know more because, I have heard several conservative pundits suggest that the blurring of moral lines brought on by the sexual revolution was the root cause of this crisis in the church. This document predates the sexual revolution. Further many have suggested that liberal views of the church regarding homosexuality were to blame. I think this notion is simply laughable. Does anyone know of an institution with more rigidly conservative views on human sexuality than the catholic church?

[ArkDem]

15. I'm with you....

more Catholic bashing.

[OrdinaryTa]

22. Catholic Bashing

Liberator Rev. never misses an opportunity to present the Catholic Church in an unfavorable light. If there's an anti-Catholic angle to a news story, he'll find it and post it.

[Blue_Chill]

24. I'm glad someone else noticed

I've also noticed that he never answers a question. If for example you ask what church he bleongs to and what their stance is on the subject you get nothing but more "Newsflash Catholics eat souls!" type articles from around the globe.

[JohnKleeb]

52. I know that too

[DemLikr]

25. Is it your position that such info is better kept secret and hidden?

Throughout history, people who are effective in their goals have zeroed in on one primary target in life, as has Liberator Rev.

What's the problem with that?

Perhaps the Rev. has good reason to have serious issues with the RCC, about which you know nothing.

Just speculating. But it amuses me how often we react to news unfavorable to our sacred cows by attacking the messenger.

Damn that Joan of Arc...leave it to her to discover and highlight anything negative about the RCC. Bitch.

[Blue_Chill]

27. Before you get all crazy you should consider

That all too often Rev has posted slanted facts. Such as his "Hitler was a Catholic" post. He also discredits himself by taking cheapshot that have no basis such as "Who is the Saint of Pedophiles?"

When someone shows a constant willingness to warp facts their mission becomes more of a witch hunt.

[arcane1]

28. ahem, Hitler WAS a Catholic...

at least as a child....

anti-Semitism was the nrom in the RCC of the time, even in liturgy

just fyi, not defending anyone..

[Blue_Chill]

31. ahem, Raygun WAS a democrat

I hope you see my point.

[Terwilliger]

41. I see your point...you skipped over arcane's point

but I expect nothing less from you :hi:

[DemLikr]

32. "Patron Saint of Pedophiles" is bomb-throwing, I'll admit...

but bomb-throwing is a necessary tactic when attacking an edifice as huge and powerful as the 2,000 year old RCC.

I doubt the pope has been informed of Rev's little...joke.

By the way, who IS that saint?

peace, love and grooviness

[Liberator_Rev]

47. Check out the "patron saint" of pedophiles

at http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/about/pio_nono.html where I ask why on earth the R.C. is thinking of making Pope Pius IX a SAINT, when one of the reasons that he stands out is that he kidnapped a Jewish child and refused to return him to his parents because they wouldn't pay the "ransom" that he demanded their conversion to Catholicism?

He was such a tyrant that the media throughout the civilized world could not "bash" the papacy enough to force him to EVER let the child go!

[OrdinaryTa]

33. One Primary Target

Liberator Rev rapped me on the knuckles for saying that Catholics have learned to ignore the Pope when his teaching gets too far away from their lives. Ignoring the Pope probably started before Humanae Vitae, Paul VI's letter that denounced birth control, but it certainly picked up speed afterwards. Ordinary Catholics went on about their lives as if the Pope were some guy ranting in the corner. You hardly ever hear about NFP (natural family planning) anymore because the Pope's teaching has in effect been overruled. Catholics practice birth control as much as any other group.

Apparently Liberator Rev is a strict hierarchalist. According to him, what the Pope says, goes. He'd fit right into the niche that conservative Catholics have carved out for themselves. But despite their claims to be the only true voice of Catholicism, conservative Catholics are only one voice out of many. Catholicism is a much more "liberal" faith than people realize.

[Rich Hunt]

71. so do I

I left the church, too, which is exactly why I am able to distinguish between criticism & disillusionment on the one hand and hysteria on the other. Which is EXACTLY why I get pissed off.

"The Reverend" goes overboard. He calls anyone who disagrees with him a "conservative" and an apologist for the hierarchy and the child molesters.

I'm trying very hard to be objective, but I'm not seeing any fairness coming from him. I can understand that coming from someone who might have had a bad experience, but part of being reasonable is being able to examine our own biases and to recognize our subjectivity when it is exactly that.

And I am tired of this illogical divining of people's motives. How many times must I see this same tired argument: "he must have struck a nerve" "he attacked YOUR sacred cows" "you just don't like anything negative said about YOUR church". Sorry, but these arguments about people's intentions are pure psychoanalyzing and are not logical.

[MiltonLeBerle]

3. Something tells me that the Church may be divesting itself-

of some of it's massive real estate holdings.

Just their luck to have it happen just as the real estate market is getting geared up for a downturn.
Maybe there is a god after all.

[NashVegas]

5. The Sexual Revolution

Back around the time Sinead O'Connor was ripping up his photo, the Pope proclaimed the problem of sexual abuse among the clergy was the result of the Sexual Revolution of the 60s. Free love and anything goes, etc. etc. To which I proclaimed: bullshit - if it hadn't been for the sexual revolution, we would not even be having this dialog, this is just the dark side of the coin the revolution shined a light on, and it ain't pretty.

I think this document, if legit, shows the Church knew that as people became freer in discussing sex, we'd get around to this issue sooner or later.

[BlueState]

7. Yes blaming the sexual revolution is a crazy notion

I also think you make an important observation, the openness with which sex is discussed in moderne society benefits the victims of child sexual abuse. It was once viewed as a dirty dark secret that shouldn't be discussed. This benifited molesters in the church and society as a whole.

[Mixxster]

8. More links

http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news/2368312/detail.html

http://www.rentapriest.com/vatican_implicated_in_worldwide.htm


The actual document is titled On the Manner of Proceeding in Cases of Solicitation. (Latin title: Crimen Sollicitones).

[Liberator_Rev]

34. Thanks for the great additional links, Mixxster.

I'm familiar with the organization that runs the site :
http://www.rentapriest.com/vatican_implicated_in_worldwide.htm

They are trying to enable married priests who so desire to continue ministering to Catholics who want their services on an occasional (i.e. "rental" basis).

[Liberator_Rev]

36. Dupe deleted.

.

[Loonman]

9. Forms of investiture controversery are nothing new

Actually what triggered some of the many schisms and splits in the Middle Ages between the church and the Crown, and the Church and the state.

[ShaneGR]

10. Hey, I'm catholic

And I was never molested it. In fact, the vast majority of catholics had never even heard of any of this stuff until a few years ago. What is it with all of the Catholic bashing? I'm sick of it. I'll bet 5,000,000,000 dollars that if we did an investigation into every single religion on earth there would be a similar amount of impropriety.

And before you jump all over me... I'm not a rabid catholic, but I do practice.

[Rich Hunt]

11. the funny thing is

....I went to a very liberal parish & school. Actually, it was a pretty left-wing church.

We had one of these molesting priests there. The pastor fired him immediately, as soon as he found out, but the hierarchy wouldn't do anything about this guy.

But many of us didn't know it was going on, because some of the "liberal" parishioners were not so "liberal" as they thought, and thought this was a "taboo" subject that should not be talked about openly. What's funny is that some of the more conservative Catholics wanted the priests thrown out on their asses, probably for more conservative reasons, but go figure. I guess the moral here is to not be self-congratulatory about one's liberalism - this was in the late 70s, when people still had a lot to learn, but were a bit smug about how far they'd come.

However, molestation has nothing to do with being liberal or conservative. The priest who was an abuser was actually a liberal priest. Not that his liberalism made him a molester, it's just that politics or social liberalism are no guarantee that you won't abuse children.

[NashVegas]

66. "probably for more conservative reasons"

If preserving the integrity of your church - or any institution - is conservative, I'm all for it.

To the people who are pissed off because they view this item as another take at Catholic bashing, I'm sorry it seems that your backs are being put against the wall.

That does not distract from the fact the church knew, at the highest levels, these acts were taking place and did nothing to help the children who were being tripped up on the path their spiritual leaders appointed themselves to guide them through.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

13. I am with you on that.

A lot of this stuff is being driven by the thumpers and their usual end-times "Whore of Babylon" bullshit. On the other hand, one molested child is one too many. One coverup is more than enough.

[DemBones DemBones]

14. I've done searches and turned up plenty of charges against

Protestant ministers, against rabbis, against leaders in the Jehovah's Witnesses (they don't have actual clergy), against Mormon clergy and lay leaders, etc. Some reports were of trials and convictions, others just of allegations. This is NOT just a Catholic problem. It's a problem that occurs wherever there is a situation that allows pedophiles to have contact with children.

My searches revealed cover-ups by other religious groups, too. While all the Boston news was going on last year, an Orthodox Jewish rabbi was on trial (and eventually convicted) for sexually molesting a number of young girls who attended a school where he was the chief administrator. There had been a large-scale coverup by other Orthodox rabbis because this man was regarded as an important leader. Did you ever hear that story on the evening news? Or on "Nightline"? CNN? Another Orthodox rabbi was convicted during that time of abusing young boys and, if I recall correctly, he may have contacted some of them online. He definitely had child porn on his computer. Heard that story?

I'm another Catholic who is disgusted by abusive Catholic clergy but also disgusted at the anti-Catholic sentiment behind the selling of this story. Abuse by non-Catholic clergy simply does not receive anything like the news coverage given to stories abour priests.

[Cassandra]

18. Part of the problem is inherent in the structure

of the Catholic church. The hierarchy and large size mean that when there's a problem that the hierarchy wants to sweep under the rug, it is able to grow to enormous proportions. Smaller denominations and less centralized religions have their individual pedophile incidents, but are without a huge network to shelter them from prosecution. So the story becomes a small one about a pedophile instead of a large one about the whole religious group. It is the behavior of the bishops that has made this the huge story that it is, not the fact that pedophiles are present in the Catholic church as they are in all other religions. So it's not Catholic-bashing so much as it is bishop-bashing; and the bishops happen to be Catholic and regularly make pronouncements on others' morality. Hypocracy is always a good story.

[salin]

55. The stories all miss a theme - which is, imo, why this issue persists.

These are not exclusively Catholic, nor even Religious.

1. Eons of adults denying molesting happens, or when it happens of putting the blame on the child (re: child as seducer) - especially if the accused is well respected. Or because the embarassment for the adults is so high, that folks swept it under the rug, and in doing so failed to recognize the real effects of these events on children. Especially if the molestation was ongoing.

2. The self-perpetuation/self-protection mechanisms that fly into full gear whenever an organization becomes institutionalized. Suddenly any criticism is veiwed as an attack on the organization and self-preservation activities follow. Thus acknowledging the criticism, which is required before one can systemically address the issue, is disallowed, discouraged, or defended against.

[ArkDem]

16. I was raised a

Methodist but became a Catholic 3 years ago. I was taught that Catholics and Catholism were very bad. Catholic bashing is a world wide sport.

[demigoddess]

20. If if makes you feel better

Two local protestant churches had similar scandals , one a deacon and young boys and at another a minister and adult men. Also many years ago the minister made a pass (or something) at my aunt and my uncle(her husband) told him to get out of town or talk to his shotgun. I think it is more a case of power corrupts.

[twilight]

103. same here

I'm sick of it too and I am no devout Catholic by a long shot. However, nothing ever happened to me either.

Why doesn't this fool go find a 'mission' in life or something productive?

I'll make sure I'll pass these remarks on to the local priest here who was so very attentive to my dying mother.

Get a life idiot!

:kick:

[robbedvoter]

12. I have to wonder how will this play in the context of religion being

thrown in our faces quite shamelessly lately ("we are all sinners", wingnut pundits turning catholic, Dems being accused of hating catholics for rejecting wignut catholic judges, Gibson's carefully politicized catholic extremist "opus", Pope coming out against gay marriage.
Somehow, this to me comes like Larry Flynt's disclosures of the impeachers private lives - a blow to hypocrisy. It's probably why it's coming forth these days.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

17. Thank GOD the document is 40 years old. Not like it happened

yesterday. In fact the story is several months old as well. 40 years ago there were still dixiecrats. Perhaps we should post that all over DU. 40 years ago damn near every politician was anti-choice and 40 years ago IIRC, George Wallace might still have been a Democrat.

Thanks Lib Rev. Jesus loves you.

[Richardo]

26. My first thought, too, NSMA...

.

[DemBones DemBones]

19. I've done a search on Daniel Shea, the Houston attorney who

claims to have this document. Several stories revealed that Shea is licensed to practice in Massachusetts as well as Texas and represented several of the alleged victims of sexual abuse by priests who were making charges in the Boston archdiocese in 2002. Here's a link to one story:

http://www.boston.com/globe/spotlight/abuse/stories/032702_accusers.htm

>>>>>> EXTRA! EXTRA! I just found this Disciplinary Action from the Texas Bar against Shea, and am now wondering why he's not IN JAIL:

On Nov. 6, Daniel J. Shea <#18163580>, 59 of Houston accepted a public reprimand. The District 4-G Grievance Committee found a client hired Shea for representation in a civil lawsuit against her son. The complainant was then hospitalized, and while hospitalized she signed a durable power of attorney wherein she named Shea her attorney-in-fact. Based on the powers delegated him through the power of attorney, on several occasions after the client's discharge from the hospital, Shea borrowed money from the client. He failed to fully disclose the terms of the loans to the client, the terms of which were not fair and reasonable to the client; failed to advise the client of the opportunity to seek independent counsel; and failed to obtain the client's consent in writing. Shea violated Rules 1.08(a)(1), (a)(2), (a)(3), and (b).

http://www.texasbar.com/globals/tbj/2003/feb/discipline.asp

[Rich Hunt]

21. Extra, extra!

Catholics eat puppies!

catholicslikesatan.com

[Terwilliger]

23. does this discredit Bill Clinton too?

he's a proven liar...fuck what he says, right?

[DemBones DemBones]

74. SHEA STOLE FROM A CLIENT -- that is worse than Clinton's lie

trying to keep his wife and daughter from knowing what he'd done with Monica Lewinsky.

[Liberator_Rev]

35. Who's side are you ON, Dembones ?

Your compulsive need to defend the hierarchy, and in this case to attack the credibility of your fellow Catholic attorney, who is representing the VICTIMS of pedophilia, would lead most objective observers to conclude that you are AGAINST those who are claiming to be the VICTIMS of pedophilia at the hands of the priests (and their hierarchical protectors) and FOR the molestors of Roman Catholic children.

You keep on trying to portray ME as anti-Catholic.
The fact is that I am PRO innocent young Catholic boys and girls, and AGAINST clerical child molestors, while you are ANTI innocent young Catholic boys and girls, and PRO clerical child molestors.

[OrdinaryTa]

37. The Old McCarthy Trick

People who opposed McCarthy's ravings were said to be anti-anti-Communist, making them, in his words, pro-Communist. You're using the same trick here, accusing people who oppose you of being pro-pedophilia. It's a blackmail argument, and totally unworthy of a man of the cloth, if that is indeed what you are.

[flyingfish]

39. Amen, OrdinaryTa

As Alice in Wonderland speak would say, "Words mean whatever we want them to mean." Close paraphrase, of course

[Terwilliger]

43. to a point

but there are people being molested right now, so your argument doesn't really work

Or, is a political ideology equal to the rape and molestation of young people?

BTW...I think Rev is anti-Catholic myself, but the point about expsoing and rectifying the continuing injustices perpetrated by the church is sound. It needs to be addressed.

[outinforce]

46. It doth seemeth to me, Rev. Dubuque,

that you are anti-Catholic. Any careful observer of what you post here regularly could reasonaby conclude that you still "have issues" with a church in which you at one time were a member of the clergy.

I find it fascinating that you say that you are pro innocent young Catholic boys and girls.

What, are the young boys and girls who are members of the United Methodist Church unworthy of your concern?

Or is it that those "issues" you still carry around with you regarding the Church of Rome are more important that any real concern you might have for the members of the RC Church?

Surely, as you point out, your own church must have clerical molesters within it. And yet, your vituperation seems to be reserved for the clerical members of the RC Church.

Why is that?

[DemBones DemBones]

51. I'm on the side of truth, Ray, and on the side of fairness, and

I resent your libelous allegation that I am "PRO clerical child molestors" (sic).

Re-read the last paragraph of my first post above:

"I'm another Catholic who is disgusted by abusive Catholic clergy but also disgusted at the anti-Catholic sentiment behind the selling of this story. Abuse by non-Catholic clergy simply does not receive anything like the news coverage given to stories abour priests."

How do you get "PRO clerical child molestors" (sic) from "I'm another Catholic who is DISGUSTED by abusive Catholic clergy" (emphasis added)?

Child molesters commit reprehensible, loathsome crimes and I would never defend anyone who committed such acts.

But I want fairness to all, which requires that the idea that sexual abuse is a Catholic problem be discredited. Sexual abuse is a human problem and not to realize that encourages a dangerous naivete in parents and children.

Those who make false accusations of child molestation also commit crimes, however, and I would remind you of the man who falsely accused the late Cardinal Bernardin of molestation. He soon recanted his story and the cardinal forgave his accuser. There have been other revelations of false accusations against priests and others. Teachers, for example, have also been falsely accused by students.

As for the attorney Daniel Shea, I think it is quite relevant to consider the bar association's reprimand of him. Did you even read the charge he admitted to? He obtained a power of attorney from a client and then used it to "borrow" money from her WITHOUT HER KNOWLEDGE OR CONSENT. That is highly unethical behavior -- and that's an understatement.

If an attorney will steal from a client, what else will he do? Will he, perhaps, suborn perjury? We're not talking about a man telling a little white lie. We're talking about a man violating the ethics of his profession and the law (not to mention Catholic teaching -- and how did you know he was Catholic, by the way?) That DOES discredit him. It makes everything he does suspect.

[Tinoire]

67. Let's talk about the poor abused Methodist children for a change.

What? You say they don't exist? Must not be looking very hard.

I posted some stories for you at the end of this thread. Let me know if you need more. There was an absolutely disgusting slew of them out there. But you already knew that didn't you?

Almost 42 percent of respondents in a 1990 study on sexual harassment in The United Methodist Church reported unwanted sexual behavior by a colleague or pastor; 17 percent of laywomen said that their own pastor had harassed them.


http://www.reporterinteractive.org/news/062602/ethics3.htm

:wow: Those are some stats!

Your sister in Christ,

Tinoire

[stickdog]

29. Bush tweaked the anti-war, pro-working class Pope about this very issue.

Get the picture?

[stickdog]

30. Secret 40 yr. old Operation Northridge documents REVEALED

These documents could shake the foundation of the Pentagon.

[MrPrax]

68. LOL I think you mean Northwood tho

but it is an interesting hint at what the Pentagon does with it's spare time

http://emperors-clothes.com/images/north-int.htm

[Tinoire]

88. lol and I love that bumber sticker! n/t

[JohnKleeb]

89. I cant see it but love your sense of humor as always terwill

[Liberator_Rev]

38. The "Everybody does it" defense doesn't wash !

Once again, in a post above, Roman Catholic Dembones is invoking the classic "Everybody does it" defense for his church's hierarchy.
Sure the molesting of children has been known to happen in EVERY church, especially closed and authoritarian ones similar to his. Without ever having to investe the matter personally, my knowledge of human nature would lead me to believe that in every long lasting, large organization it is bound happen once in a while.

But surely, even Dembones doesn't believe that every religious group OTHER THAN the Roman Catholic Church is so powerful that they are able to control the media and PREVENT their equally grave scandals from being publicized!

If you believe that such scandals are happening just as frequently in OTHER denominations, then you must ALSO believe that in every other Roman Catholic diocese in America the same degree of malfeasance would be found as what was found in the Archdiocese of Boston, i.e.:
"Attorney General Thomas F. Reilly (of Mass.) issued a grand jury report that was critical of the hierarchy of the Boston Archdiocese for its failure to protect children from abusive priests... He determined that at least 800 children were sexually abused by 250 priests in the archdiocese dating from 1940."
I am more inclined to believe that there are 2 major reasons for the DEGREE of criminality in the Catholic Church, one being the principal that "Absolute power corrupts absolutely" (which means that popes and bishops have too much unchecked power, operate in secrecy and use the threat of excommunication to scare the hell out of any potential "whistle blowers") and the other, the warning issued by the great reforming saint, Bernard of Clairvaux. In the year 1135 he was responding to the Albigensian claim that marriage is sordid. Bernard said: 'Take from the Church an honourable marriage and an immaculate marriage bed, and do you not fill it with concubinage, incest, homosexuality and every kind of uncleanness?'

See http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/PopesvsChrist

[flyingfish]

40. It's the old, "I am not anti-Catholic, I am just presenting the Catholic

Church in the worse possible light as possible."

Rev, how many blatantly pro-Catholic posts have you put up as compared to blatantly anti-Catholic posts?

Or do you not answer the tough questions?

I don't know is not acceptable.

[enki23]

42. for someone so touchy about those 'anti-theist' meanies

well... nothing like a bit of hypocrisy. *ahem* HOW DARE! YOU TAR CATHOLICISM WITH A SINGLE BRUSH LIKE THAT! not all catholics are "fundamentalist" catholics. not even in the heirarchy.

oh, but that would be awfully unhypocritical. forget i said anything.

now back to a friendly message from your atheist oppressors: faith is for the cognitively challenged.

[outinforce]

44. It Sounds to Me

"and the other, the warning issued by the great reforming saint, Bernard of Clairvaux. In the year 1135 he was responding to the Albigensian claim that marriage is sordid. Bernard said: 'Take from the Church an honourable marriage and an immaculate marriage bed, and do you not fill it with concubinage, incest, homosexuality and every kind of uncleanness?'"

Gee, Rev. Dubuque, it sure sounds to me as though this St. Bernard of Clairvaux, whom you apparently hold in high regard, had much in common with Sen. Santorum of Pennsylvania.

Homosexuality and Incest and Concubinage -- and every other kind of uncleanness??!!!

Notice that the good St. Bernard does not mention pedophilia -- just homosexuality, incest, and concubinage -- specific references, in his mind at least, to the forms of "uncleanness".

And you, of all people, put forth this type of thought as worthy of consideration by "Liberals Like Christ"??!!


<<<chortle>>>

[Liberator_Rev]

69. Sorry your logic doesn't stand up, Outinforce

Outinforce, your animosity towards me has led you to post nonsense:

As a non-Catholic, there's no reason why I should feel bound to somebody that the CATHOLIC CHURCH has declared a Saint.
But since the Catholic Church has declared him a saint, and he warned that celibacy would lead to all kinds of things that the Catholic Church considers abominable sins, then it's logical for those who consider him a SAINT to attend to his advice.

As for what he included in his list, surely you aren't saying that his list is anything but some examples, and that rape and pedophilia are EXCLUDED, just because he didn't explicitly mention them.

[Rich Hunt]

45. erm...

concubinage, incest, homosexuality and every kind of uncleanness?

Uh, that's not the wisest quote now, is it?

:wtf:

"concubinage" - LOL. Don't think I've heard that one since about 1462.

I didn't even like Bernard of Clairvaux when I was in Catholic school.

:eyes:


Also, what was so bad about the Albigensians, anyway?

http://www2.kenyon.edu/projects/margin/cathy11.htm

http://www.u.arizona.edu/~afutrell/w%20civ%2002/albigensians.html

They sound like radicals, "like Christ".

[Tinoire]

48. "Secret Methodist pedophilia document REVEALED"

"Hypocrite, you must firstly throw-out the beam from your eye and then you will throughly-observe to throw-out the speck from your brother's eye. "

Man arrested for child sex abuse while serving church in '70s
By United Methodist News Service
Posted on: 06/05/2002


A United Methodist layman is in jail for allegedly molesting two boys while serving as a probationary clergy member in Southern California during the 1970s.

Gary Allen Carsonhull, 57, faces 18 counts of lewd acts with a child, according to the news reports. Arrested on May 21, he will be arraigned June 12 and is being held in lieu of $900,000 bail.

<snip>

The alleged abuse occurred when Carsonhull was a probationary member working toward full clergy membership in the conference that covers Southern California, now called the California-Pacific Annual Conference. Carsonhull allegedly molested the boys between 1975 and 1979, according to the Associated Press, citing a criminal complaint. The alleged acts occurred as he participated in field trips and other activities involving the youth group of a Long Beach church, authorities said. The Long Beach church is also named Los Altos United Methodist Church.

Since local media carried accounts of Carsonhull's arrest, additional people have contacted police, some of whom also alleged that youth minister also molested them during the 1970s.

<snip>

http://www.churchbusiness.com/hotnews/26h584524.html

[Tinoire]

49. "Another Secret Methodist pedophilia document REVEALED"

U.S. Protestants also facing sex abuse scandals
Expert: Frequency of abuse by Protestant clergy may equal that of Catholic priests

<snip>

For instance, the Rev. Robert Eckert of Grand Rapids, a minister in the African Methodist Episcopal Church, was sent to prison in 2000 for sexual involvement with a 15-year-old girl who worked as his baby sitter -- but the case received relatively little attention.

<snip>

In a typical Protestant case, a jury awarded $10 million in February to relatives of the late Deborah Yardley of Columbus, Ohio.

The suit charged that the Rev. Steven Colliflower, a United Methodist, had an affair with Yardley when she sought his help with alcohol and emotional problems. He left the ministry shortly after she made the allegation. She later died of liver disease.

The conservative World magazine says Protestantism faces a "severe problem" of clergy involvement with people the ministers are counseling, calling this "an egregious abuse of power."

<snip>

http://www.hollandsentinel.com/stories/040602/rel_040602027.shtml

[Tinoire]

50. "And Another Secret Methodist pedophilia document REVEALED"

In such circumstances - far from their own country and hundreds of miles from their parents - these children were particularly vulnerable, the report said: "Sometimes (they) desperately hungered for adult attention, affection and security. Such circumstances provided an ideal climate for a man who was not really their kind 'uncle' but a sexual molester."


In painful detail, the ICI documents 48 specific incidents of abuse by Pruitt, involving 22 girls. It speculates that the exact number is probably significantly higher, and recommends the creation of an "abuse-review panel" to receive any additional reports.


Pruitt's abuse continued after he returned from the Congo and while serving as associate pastor at Highland Park Presbyterian Church in Dallas. The report lists two incidents of child molestation at the church, and four others that took place during "pastoral calls at person's house."

<snip>

Officials of the United Methodist Church's General Board of Global Missions and Board of Pensions declined to cooperate with the investigation on the grounds of confidentiality.


McClure said that Pruitt would have had access to Methodist children at the hostel in Kinshasa. Reinhold said Methodist women are in the survivors group.


Stearns conceded that not all the former missionaries interviewed by the ICI supported the investigation. But he said fears that uncovering Pruitt's abuse might taint the decades of spectacular missionary activity in the Congo are unfounded. "The actions of one individual, or even a few, should not color the church's overall effort in the Congo," he said.

<snip>

http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm/aame/aame0492.htm

[Tinoire]

53. "Yet Another Secret Methodist pedophilia document REVEALED"

Churches Join Battle over Coverage for Sex Claims – Insurer says intentional acts not protected under policy

by Mark Wrolstad – The Dallas Morning News – 12/14/98

The last sexual misconduct and negligence lawsuits against defrocked Methodist leader Barry Bailey and his former denomination were settled months ago, and his victims have been paid.

But the legal contest continues over who ultimately will foot most of the bill in the multimillion-dollar case: insurance companies or the Methodist church.

<snip>

The Methodist church divisions, which paid the women directly, now are trying to recover from their insurers an unspecified amount, including attorneys’ fees.

The Methodists’ insurers contend they’ll will in state court, just as another group of insurers won in federal court earlier this year and avoided paying.

Another point in the insurers’ favor, they say, is the women’s contentions that church officials knew Dr. Bailey’s behavior and kept him on the job.

<snip>

http://www.pmartinlaw.com/Churches%20Join%20Battle%20over%20Coverage%20for%20Sex%20Claims.htm

[Tinoire]

54. "And yet Another Secret Methodist pedophilia document REVEALED"

Meanwhile, a United Methodist church in Tennessee is reeling after its youth pastor was indicted on charges of sexually abusing three young boys over a period of several months in 2000 and 2001. Following an investigation by the Department of Human Services, 33-year-old Curtis Hudson was charged with one count of child rape, three counts of rape, and seven counts of battery by an authority figure. The charges stem from sexual misconduct allegations lodged by youth at First United Methodist Church in Jackson.

Ben Boone is superintendent of the Jackson district of the United Methodist Church in Memphis Conference. He says the church already has policies in place to deal with sexual misconduct.

"We've had policies within our annual conference for the last few years dealing with safe sanctuary, providing safe places for our children and youth," Boone says, " the United Methodist Church has a policy in our Discipline that gives us guidelines for dealing with issues of sexual misconduct."

Boone, who is requesting prayer for what he calls a "regrettable and painful" situation, says the shocked congregation has responded in several ways. "They have provided counseling for families involved, held meetings with the youth as a whole with parents, provided counselors for those series of meetings to help folks walk through the crisis," he says.

<snip>

http://headlines.agapepress.org/archive/7/182002c.asp

[Tinoire]

56. "Not Another Secret Methodist pedophilia document REVEALED"

Idaho Falls -- A Bonneville County judge ruled Friday there is enough evidence for a former Idaho Falls pastor to stand trial on child sex abuse charges. Steven Michael Sheridan is charged with two counts of lewd conduct with a child under the age of 16.

Sheridan was pastor of St. Paul's United Methodist Church six years ago when a now-20-year-old man says Sheridan touched his genitals at least five times. The man testified he was attending Sheridan's congregation when the pastor said he had a dream the alleged victim was preaching to his own congregation, spurring the then-teen to consider joining the clergy.

Sheridan became a mentor to the boy, according to testimony, and the two took several trips together. The witness testified the two sat naked in a hot tub two to three times a week and gave each other massages, sometimes masturbating and talking about sex. They also watched pornography together, the witness told the court. On at least five occasions, the alleged victim said, Sheridan touched the then-teen's testicles, which Sheridan claimed at the time he was doing to check for cancer, according to testimony.

The witness said he confronted Sheridan on the phone last September about the alleged abuse, to which Sheridan replied "I thought we forgave all this." An Idaho Falls Police Department detective recorded the call. In a subsequent call, also recorded, Sheridan said he didn't remember if he did anything inappropriate, but said, "If I did it, then I ask you to forgive me for it."

<snip>

http://www.rickross.com/reference/clergy/clergy127.html

[JohnKleeb]

57. heh mainly me being silly but some what serious

I guess I am gonna go worship Mary, anyone wanna come, we get to worship the saints?, fine we have communion wine that may lure you lol, we're the church who gave you JFK if that my help? and the methodists gave you shrub. I am joking on that really even if it is technically true, you can NOT judge a faith by the deeds of a few same goes for everything. *gets in pope mobile* heh

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Rich Hunt]

61. LOL

...yeah, go worship your "idols" in your gilt-encrusted palace, you decadent papist! And don't forget that the pope is infallible even when he picks his nose!

:evilgrin:

[Tinoire]

64. Yepper. Gonna go fiddle with my rosaries and pray for the salvation of

a very lost and confused Methodist "Reverend" who used to be a Catholic but right now is a Catholic-bashing "Liberal"(?) so hell, I don't know what exactly I'm gonna be praying for but those rosary beads will be jingling!!



"Please choose the way of peace. ... In the short term there may be winners and losers in this war that we all dread. But that never can, nor never will justify the suffering, pain and loss of life your weapons will cause." -- Letter to U.S. President George Bush and Iraqi President Saddam Hussein, January 1991.

[JohnKleeb]

65. heh why thank you

[Tinoire]

58. "Another Disgusting Secret Methodist pedophilia fact REVEALED!"

That's some SICK shit Ray! 42%? I would hang my head in shame and if I were a "Reverend" in the Methodist church, I'd start healing those poor sick abused Methodist parishioners instead of spending my entire days grinding my axe against the Catholic Church for throwing me out. I mean you are a man of God aren't you? That is your job isn't it? To heal and comfort? Or did I miss something in my Bible?


Almost 42 percent of respondents in a 1990 study on sexual harassment in The United Methodist Church reported unwanted sexual behavior by a colleague or pastor; 17 percent of laywomen said that their own pastor had harassed them.

http://www.reporterinteractive.org/news/062602/ethics3.htm

[JohnKleeb]

59. wow!

Looks like some one should clean up his own church first. I'll get the mop for both of ours ok.

[Tinoire]

62. Yes it does doesn't it?

Hypocrite, you must firstly throw-out the beam from your eye and then you will throughly-observe to throw-out the speck from your brother's eye.

Those poor, poor people. Abused. Lied to. And then abandoned! 1 pastor short for comfort because their "Reverend" is too busy and peddling his snake oil web-site and grinding his ax about a Church that threw him out on a political board.

Gotta go. That was enough filth for the day. Google brought up a slew of Methodist paedophilia scandals but I haven't got the time.


At 42% of the congregation, that's going to be quite a few cases!

Peace

:hi:

[JohnKleeb]

63. wanna go worship the saints

heh

[flyingfish]

70. it's not accurate to say Catholics worship Mary or the saints

Catholics only pray to them to pass their prays onto God.
It's like saying to someone, "Hey, pray for me about ...."
Except Mary and the saints are a lot closer to God than your next door neighbor.

[Rich Hunt]

73. he knows that...

He is making fun of that stereotype, as are the rest of us.

:hi: :)

[JohnKleeb]

75. I know I am

just making fun of the age old sterotypes about us, flyingfish. I cant stand what Liberator Rev says about Catholics. You know I am gonna go read my bible, the real bible not that cruddy King James Bible you know. This kinda makes me feel a little bit better, I am feeling kinda down but I really cant explain it.

[flyingfish]

79. Just wanted to clarify things for the non-Catholic crowd

You know what they say-never discuss religion and politics.

[JohnKleeb]

80. gotcha

Relgion and Politics go together like LSD and steak heh.

[Liberator_Rev]

72. What do you think your "ad hominem" arguments prove?

When people have nothing to put forth to make their case, they often resort to attacking the person of the opposition, or in this case "the United Methodist Church".

There are two serious flaws in this ointment:
1) first of all I don't represent the United Methodist Church. I've never claimed to, and I don't promote it as the alternative to the Catholic Church. What I claim to promote and represent is simply the unadulterated teaching of Jesus Christ, as presented in the four Gospels of the New Testament. So it's no skin off my teeth if you Catholics can find as much dirt in that church as in yours. I've only read one of Tinoire's posts and if they are typical, she has found about ONE scandal to every HUNDRED that has been uncovered so far in the Catholic Church.

2) But if she finds that much corruption in the United Methodist Church, then instead of DEFENDING my church, I won't hesitate to CONDEMN IT.

3) In the mean time, pointing to something wrong with the presenter of an argument (i.e. the hominem) proves NOTHING about the merits of that person's case. But when he haven't got any worthwhile arguments on your side, then why not try it. It will fool the uninformed at least!

[DemBones DemBones]

76. Ray, you are so FULL of it -- and I do NOT mean full of the love of God.

YOU state on YOUR website that you are a United Methodist minister (and a former Catholic priest) and you've stated it here at DU, too. We went through this movie before, when you attacked the Catholic position that marriage is between a man and a woman, and I quickly unearthed the United Methodist position, which says that marriage is between a man and a woman. Why deny now that you're an ordained Methodist minister?

How many United Methodist clergy are there in the U.S.? Whatever the number, it's a fraction of the number of Roman Catholic clergy, so of course there are fewer UM pedophiles than RC pedophiles, perhaps one to every hundred as you suggest. But those who have actually studied pedophilia among clergymen, and written books and articles, say that the RATE of pedophilia is consistent across denominational lines.

Since you ARE a UM minister pointing out the sins of RC clergy, why shouldn't my sister Tinoire point out the sins of UM clergy? Since you claim to have taught logic at the college level, while I studied logic for only a year (1965-66, to be specific), I hesitate to argue about logical fallacies with you but I don't think her posts constitute an ad hominem attack at all. Wouldn't an ad hominem attack require that she attack you personally?

[NashVegas]

78. Ya Know ..

He may very well be pushing a grudge, but speaking as someone with a direct interest who hadn't heard of this document, I'm glad this thread was posted.

What's more important? The message or the messenger?

[Tinoire]

87. Then check here often or just do a google on the name Ray Dubuque

Plenty of stuff out there by the good reverend. He's got an entire collection of stuff for his little agenda.

Most of it has been refuted at DU over and over again but the good reverend is on some sort of a mad mission so it never sinks in.

Even the best message gets tiresome at times especially when coupled with a personal, obsessive agenda.

[Liberator_Rev]

86. Sorry, Dembones, but

despite your inappropriate language (which does nothing to prove that you are on the side of the angels), you and your sister are not proving that your client is innocent, by attacking me personally, or by attacking the institution that you mistakenly claim that I REPRESENT.

First, being a United Methodist minister does not make me a representative of it, any more than being an East Havener or a citizen of Conn. makes me a representative of that city and state. I stated that just to fill out my bio. They don't particularly want me to represent them, nor do I want to represent them.

The "Liberals Like Christ" site urges people to follow Christ, to be Liberals, and to choose from among a number of Liberal causes which friends of the site might want to help. Now that I'm thinking about it, I don't know of any that are United Methodist as such. Another interesting thing about "Liberals Like Christ" is that unlike most other causes you have ever seen, we tell people :
"1. We don't want your Money.
( There's no good cause that an abundance of money can't corrupt.)

& 2. If you have wealth to share, then we recommend, as Jesus did, that you share it with the needy, not with us."

Second, the meaning of "ad hominem" is that it tries to substitute attacks against the opponent (literally 'at the man'), for attacks against the argument at hand. Since Tinoire is attempting to discredit both me and the institution that she mistakenly believes that I represent, instead of arguing the merits of my arguments, I would consider that an "ad hominem" argument.

[Tinoire]

91. Who's trying to discredit your institution

I don't give a rat's ass about it or its scandals. What I do give a rat's ass about is your obsession with attacking Catholics and their Church on a political board simply because you have an agenda.

You're a tiresome one-trick pony and I'm happy to see how many DUers are on to you and calling you on it.

-----------------------------------

3. ray dubuque of "liberals like christ" recently responded to
my questions regarding anti-catholicism on his site.

I've had a few go-arounds in private email with Mr. Dubuque. My
problem is not that he notes the warts in Church history, it's
the conclusions he draws from them, and his refusal to see any of
the good the Church is doing now or has done through history. He
clearly still has some issues with the Church that he needs to
resolve personally.

http://www.cin.org/archives/cinjust/200102/0019.html

[DemBones DemBones]

92. What inappropriate language are you referring to?

Most people would consider that a UM minister does represent the UMC to some degree, I think. But if you want to go with that argument, could we say Catholic priests don't represent the RCC? That would give the pedophiles an out, wouldn't it? I personally don't think ANY clergyman who abuses children represents his church or synagogue.

You wrote: "They don't particularly want me to represent them, nor do I want to represent them." But even if you don't want to *represent* the UMC, you are a *member* of the UMC so if you're going to air our church's dirty laundry, it's only fair that we air your church's dirty laundry. Our point is not to "attack" the UMC, as you allege, but to show that your church is not free from the sin that you condemn in our church.

Jesus said "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone."

No matter how much you deny being anti-Catholic, it's a fact that you do not post about sexual abuse by non-Catholic clergy. Do you think that Methodist, Baptist, Mormon children are not as worthy of concern as Catholic children?

[JohnKleeb]

94. You were right and I think he took offense

Really getting sick of this nonsense. Again there is good and bad in all faiths. Its not just us Catholics who stand against him, Ive seen many athiests critical too.

[Tinoire]

77. Arduum Sane Munus. You & your little agenda are so totally discredited

Now go away. Shoo. Off to your proselytizing. Surely there must be some souls to convert in the Lounge. Or in your little Yahoo Group.

Non serviam. Non serviam. Quis ut Deus? Quis et Deus!

Aut disce aut discede!

[DemLikr]

81. Can't we all just get aloooooong?

But you seem ever so too eager to get rid of the Rev. Which leads me to believe he hits a tender nerve.

I believe all tender nerves are tender for a reason...they mask an underlying infection, best lanced, popped, burst and disinfected.

(yuck)

now, how about you shoo too, loo?

[Tinoire]

82. Naw. No such luck & for you neither.

[JohnKleeb]

83. I wanna get along but he doesnt

He's always talking about the problems in the Catholic church but Tiniore's research tells me the rev has to do moping in his own church.

[DemLikr]

84. Oh come one...the RCC has a much higher profile than the MC

It wouldn't be as fun or satisfying to beat up on the Meths!

[JohnKleeb]

85. so would the athiests like it I condemned them for their beliefs

No I wont do that you know why because of respect. I'd rather be in the church of JFK than Bush's church :). Heh,

[Tinoire]

95. You're only seeing this one thread

The good reverend has a pathological obsession with the Church and resurfaces every week or two with some sensational story starting some garbage thread in which he cleverly weaves his attacks on Catholics, Catholic leaders, Catholic history and Catholic theology.

Any other DUer would post this story and engage in a political conversation- the good reverend posts them to weave in his theology, peddle his personal vanity site with its inaccurate documents and spread his hate of the chruch. Do you see the difference?

We come here for politics. Not to have a defrocked Catholic priest with an agenda foist his warped theology on us and peddle his snake-oil site that's only designed to increase the hate people already have for Catholics thanks to the Fundies and thanks to the pro-war neo-cons.

If this is ok with you, then by all means, let's invite some fundies so they can join in the fun. Some Jews for Jesus so they can upset our Jewish brothers and sisters.

What the good reverend is doing is very little different that what we accuse Falwell and Robertson of doing. Using religion to push their own personal agenda of hate and mixing it with politics.

One thread, two threads fine but this has been going on for over a year and by the same one-trick pony.

Almost everyone at DU understands that it's not cool to bash other people on the basis of their sex, race, ethnicity, sexual preference or religion and for very good reason. Like I said-0 almost everyone.

[JohnKleeb]

96. You've said it

Thanks again.

[DemLikr]

104. Tinoire, attacking the RCC institution is not attacking U personally.

It bugs me when Catholics respond to a jab at the institution of the church by claiming to be the victim of personal prejudice...a different version of the bullshit the Repukes are trying to pull by alleging anti-catholic bias in the judiciary committee.

It's totally off the point. So put the Rev on ignore if he bugs you so.

I was raised Lutheran through and through...if I can walk away from my church because of its bullshit, so can anyone else. God doesn't require an earthly bureaucracy between he/her/it/they and us!

[Forkboy]

100. So you're just out for some yuks huh?

:eyes:

[DemLikr]

105. Do U have a point, or just needed to roll your cyber-eyes?

One of my regular "yucks" is people on this board who take themselves sooooooooooooooooooooo seriously.

[NashVegas]

107. Isn't That Kinda Besides the Point by Now?

the story has been picked up by CBS, who posted the PDF file. I have only one thought, at this point. It goes something like, "and fuck you, too, Rome."

[Liberator_Rev]

90. You MISSED chance to excommunicate Hitler

A while back Blue_Chill accused me of telling an UNTRUTH in stating that Adolf Hitler was a Roman Catholic. I never claimed that he was a great Christian or a model Roman Catholic, but here in DU land where Catholics claim to be LIBERAL and to be genuine Roman Catholics even though they don't agree ENTIRELY with the Orthodoxy laid down by the Vatican, such Catholics have no grounds for claiming that Hitler wasn't a genuine Catholic when he never claimed otherwise, and instead found it useful to be perceived by the vast majority of his Christian & Catholic citizens as a Catholic (Christian) in good standing.

I maintain that one of the great failings of Pope Pius XII is that he did not excommunicate any of the many leaders of NAZISM who WERE Roman Catholics and that he did not put the "NAZI Bible", Hitler's Mein Kampf on the "Index of Forbidden Books". If he HAD done so, then you could argue that Hitler was no longer a Catholic, but it missed its opportunity to distance itself from Hitler WHEN HE WAS ALIVE & IN POWER.

Hitler said at a Nazi Christmas celebration in 1926: "Christ was the greatest early fighter in the battle against the world enemy, the Jews . . . The work that Christ started but could not finish, I--Adolf Hitler--will conclude."

In a Reichstag speech in 1938, Hitler again echoed the religious origins of his crusade. "I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews, I am fighting for the Lord's work. "

Hitler regarded himself as a Catholic until he died. "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so," he told Gerhard Engel, one of his generals, in 1941.

There was really no reason for Hitler to doubt his good standing as a Catholic. The Catholic press In Germany was eager to curry his favor, and the princes of the Catholic Church never asked for his excommunication.

When Hitler narrowly escaped assassination in Munich in November, 1939, he gave the credit to providence. "Now I am completely content," he exclaimed. "The fact that I left the Burgerbraukeller earlier than usual is a corroboration of Providence's intention to let me reach my goal." Catholic newspapers throughout the Reich echoed this, declaring that it was a miraculous working of providence that had protected their Fuhrer. One cardinal, Michael Faulhaber, sent a telegram instructing that a Te Deum be sung in the cathedral of Munich, "to thank Divine Providence in the name of the archdiocese for the Fuhrer's fortunate escape. " The Pope also sent his special personal congratulations!

Later the Pope was to publicly describe Hitler's opposition to Russia as a "high-minded gallantry in defense of the foundation of Christian culture. "Several German bishops openly supported Hitler's invasion of Russia, calling it a "European crusade." One bishop exhorted all Catholics to fight for "a victory that will allow Europe to breathe freely again and will promise all nations a new future. "

Biographer John Toland wrote of Hitler's religion: "Still a member in good standing of the Church of Rome despite detestation of its hierarchy, he carried within him its teaching that the Jew was the killer of god. The extermination, therefore, could be done without a twinge of conscience since he was merely acting as the avenging hand of god - so long as it was done impersonally, without cruelty. Himmler was pleased to murder with mercy. He ordered technical experts to devise gas chambers which would eliminate masses of Jews efficiently and 'humanely', then crowded the victims into boxcars and sent them east to stay in ghettos until the killing centers in Poland were completed."

Jews, of course, were not the only "holy" victims. In Yugoslavia, Hitler installed a Croatian, Ante Pavelic, as his puppet, and Pavelic, a Catholic like Hitler, began extermination of the Serbs, who were Greek Orthodox... The Vatican was not unaware of the massacres conducted in Yugoslavia In the name of Catholicism, but Pope Pius remained diplomatically quiet. In fact, one of his actions was to receive Ante Pavelic in private audience, thereby giving his blessing to this regime.

War's causes, of course, are complex, but it would be difficult to overestimate the disastrous role religion played in World War 11. Distrust, fear and hatred of Jews was a lesson Hitler learned early in life. It was taught by his church and reinforced by his culture. It became his obsession, his version of "the Lord's work." That Hitler, that supreme villain of the 20th century, could see himself, and be seen by others, as "providentially" guided, protected and inspired should certainly serve as an ominous clue to the dangers of religious belief. just as the Vatican umbrella could be maneuvered to shield the massacres of Serbs by Catholics in Yugoslavia, so can religion validate any behavior, any atrocity, any war.

For plenty more on this see, http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/RCscandal .

[DemBones DemBones]

97. Who is the "you" who missed a chance to excommunicate Hitler?

Do you think that Pope Pius XII was reincarnated and now posts at DU?

Levity aside, I think that Pius XII, like most people, didn't realize what Hitler was all about until rather late in the game. By that time, Der Fuehrer had so much power that to anger him by excommunicating him would likely have only caused the killing of more people.

As you well know, Catholics in Europe did a great deal to save Jews from the camps, hiding them in churches, convents, monasteries, and Catholic homes, printing out fake baptismal certificates for Jewish people, etc. Pius XII was virtually imprisoned at the Vatican during the war but he did enough for the Jewish people so that Jews all over the world mourned his death in 1958. Golda Meir praised him, Leonard Bernstein called for a moment of silence in his memory at a concert, thousands of trees were planted in Israel to honor him.

And shortly after the war, Rome's chief rabbi converted to Catholicism because he was so impressed by what Pius XII had done in the name of Christ. Were all those Jews fools?

[JohnKleeb]

98. I had no idea about that

I still do prefer his sucecessor though. Have you heard the story of the Polish priest who gave his life for a Jewish man at a camp? He was beautifed because of his sacriface and the man he saved lived through the war.

[Ein]

111. Do you dislike Catholicism?

I don't really care. Just wondering. Whatever Pope Pius did in the early 20th century is irrelevant anymore. It's an OLD document that was found, right? Bygones be bygones?

Most I can say about the recent pedophilia charges is that maybe complete celebacy is too much.

[NashVegas]

112. Old Document - Not Relevant

More than a few people are going to experience unbelievable heartache when they find this out. Some will experience rage. Some may wind up on a psychiatrist's couch.

Victims of this crime have wasted their lives to drugs, have stared into a void where they once had a god. Some have attempted suicide, and a few probably succeeded, unable to live with the knowledge.

You'd better believe they will find it relevant.

[Ein]

114. I mean....

It's nothing but an old document. To be straight, I'm agnostic, and critical of most organized religions.

It's an old document. <--period. I don't deny that the people have suffered immensely due to the acts commited by Priests, but I don't think a 40 year old document has anything of relevance to the victims.

I know if I was buttraped by a priest, I'd see him to jail and wave at him in hell from heaven after I died. But I wouldn't hold it against a whole religion.

If I held certain acts accountable to not the person but the religion, I'd be an anti-semite, anti-islamic, anti-christian etc.... among other things.

I'm not trying to marginalize the victims, but I'm not trying to villify the religion.

[NashVegas]

116. I See it Differently

Try walking in my shoes for 35 years and you might see it differently. I was one of those kids within 8 years of the date that document was published. By a guy who's main gig was doing missionary work in Africa. Yeah, that's where they want to send people who are on the fast track to promotion, all right.

Most people know better than to confuse Rome with the wider church - it's much bigger than Rome. But it was Rome where this document originated. The Bishops, after that, weren't just sitting around scratching their heads what to do with these guys, they had orders.

Imagine if this were a Ford document about its SUVs being dangerous, published 40 years ago. For 20-30 years, all these roll-overs go unreported. Ford comes out and says, geez, we're sorry. And then this comes out, that they were telling all of their employees to just keep quiet about it, for all those years, orders straight from the top.

Would it still be irrelevant?

[HootieMcBoob]

93. This was the lead story on CBS evening news tonight

I'm curious about what happens next with this story.

[noiretextatique]

99. beyond religion

is the title of a poem i am reciting in a slam tonight :hi:

[Terwilliger]

101. CBS News LEADING with this story!!!

[Crowdance]

102. Rev, as always

your courage amazes me. Thanks for bringing this story to our attention. Here's the link from a "credible" source:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/08/06/eveningnews/main566978.shtml

[DemLikr]

106. Oh this is TOO rich...Tinoire, Forkboy? Where are you?

read 'em and weep.

[Tinoire]

108. I'm right here!

And obviously you deliberately choose to understand that this has nothing to do with a story- it has to do with one poster's obsession with the a certain faith and his proselytizing on a political board for over a year.

I don't expect you to understand the finer points of that argument.

Tell you what. How about I invite Jews for Jesus to come here and post every sensationalist story they can find and then weave their warped theology throughout their threads. Pat Robertson too.

And why stop there. Let's have the anti-gay people too to really spice things up.

That'll make DU a lot of fun! :)

What you miss is that there are scandals everywhere but what is not right is tolerating agenda-driven hate using news stories as a platform.

Good thing most DUers are already aware of this problem and choose not to exacerbate it. You on the other hand... Hmmmm

With that farewell.

[Liberator_Rev]

110. Thanks, Crowdance, for your encouragement and

for the info about CBS.Com.
If you are a Native American, are you familiar with the book,
American Holocaust, by David Stannard?
I've just received my copy and have started my re-education about the Holocaust of possibly 100 million Native Americans that began with the INVASION of "the New World" by Columbus and has yet to end.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

109. ya know what Rev ....i use to support and sent your site to my catholic...

friends....check my email address which has been registered at your site for a while now....but you are a charlatan and you do nothing but add to the darkness of this world...please remove me from your site?...you make me ill!...the seven woes are on you

[kixot]

113. I am SO FUCKING TIRED of these Catholic bashing threads.

The Catholic church holds no monopoly on child molestation, in fact, I would venture to say that of child molesters in general, catholic priests are in the VAST minority. there are simply those with a hidden agenda to defame and slander Catholicism at every turn they can.

Do we discuss all of the Baptist or Pentacostal preachers who molest THEIR OWN CHILDREN? No. Do we discuss atheists who molest children? No.

Is there ANY other single group brought up when slinging these acusations? No-fucking-way.

I'm so tired of people bashing these kind, humble men who give their lives to serve their God and give up everything you and I consider making our individual identities in order to serve a greater good to their communities and the world.

Some of you people make me want to fucking puke.

[Liberator_Rev]

115. Do have a compulsive disorder , Kisot ?

Whose forcing you to read threads you claim to hate?

As for everybody being child molestors, speak for yourself.
You're not speaking for me. EVERYBODY in MY world isn't doing this kind of stuff:
"The grand jury inquiry lead by Massachusetts Attorney General Tom Reilly found the archdiocese's own records reveal that they received complaints from 789 alleged victims, involving more than 250 clergy and other workers. But he said, the number of victims, spanning a period from 1940 to today, probably exceeded 1000.
Introducing the 91 page report, he said: 'What we have documented in the course of this investigation borders on the unbelievable. The duration of it, six decades of the sexual abuse of children by members of the Catholic clergy. The magnitude of it is simply staggering.'
The attorney general said that Cardinal Bernard Law, bears ultimate responsibility for what he calls the 'tragic treatment of children.' But, he added, the Cardinal does not bear sole responsibility, saying: 'With rare exception, none of his senior managers advised him to take any of the steps that might have ended the systemic abuse of children.' "
http://www.cathnews.com/news/307/146.php
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An article by ABC news has reported that
"Powerful Cardinal in Vatican Accused of Sexual Abuse Cover-Up
By Brian Ross
April 26 , 2002
A trusted ally of Pope John Paul II has been accused of sexually abusing boys a half-century ago at an elite seminary for the Catholic Church.
The alleged victims say the Vatican knew of the allegations against Father Maciel and chose not to pursue them. In fact, the pope has continued to praise 82-year-old Maciel, a Mexico native, as an effective leader of Catholic youth, despite detailed allegations sent to the Vatican four years ago saying the man was also a long-time pedophile."