Is Dean the next Clinton? Or better?

[ThorsteinVeblen]

Howard Dean combines compassion with fiscal moderation with the ability to get things done with strength and guts with an intangible charisma that inspires people.

The health care system he created in Vermont is an incredible model, supplying the entire population with access to health insurance and making sure the people in the lower stratas of income are taken care of.

His opposition to the Iraq war along with his support of the Afghanistan War show his ability to make crucial distinctions and a rare fearlessness when it comes to fighting for his beliefs.

White males, whom the Democratic Party is consistantly weak with love Howard Dean. They love his strength, his no nonesense, straightalking style and his ability to stand alone and buck the thinking of prevailing herd especially when that herd is headed right off a cliff.

His grassroots support and warchest made of small contributions is unheard of in the last 50 years in the Democratic Party. People are inspired and excited and proud like I have never seen in my lifetime.

Unlike most other states during these dark economic times, Vermont has a balanced budget - a shining example of the kind of responsibilty, can-do-attitude and work ethic that drives Howard Dean.

The press is already starting to recognize that Howard Dean is easily the most talented politician since Bill Clinton. His background as a doctor and incredibly successful govenor might just make him better.

[On the Road]

1. He Might Be . . .

but he has to warm up, relax, and convince voters he feels their pain. As much as Clinton was ridiculed for that line, voters sensed that it was true.

At this point, anger and throwing down the gauntlet is the ticket to winning the hearts of the base. That will change as the campaign proceeds, and Dean needs to adapt. I think he will, even if he's not the natural that Clinton is.

[CMT]

2. He is Clinton without some of the talent or baggage

No politician was as good as Clinton at wooing a crowd--Dean is good, but he is not as good as Clinton on his feet in debates or one on one interviews. But Dean also doesn't have Clinton's baggage--the women, the scandals, ect. Philosophically I think they are pretty well matched.

[TLM]

23. I disagree, I think Dean is better...

Having been lucky enough to see both men speak in person... I can say that Dean was far more apt at capturing the hearts and minds of the room and exciting the people than Clintion was. Not that Clinton wasn't great at it, just that Dean seems even better.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

49. Amazing

The man just connects with people.

[silverlib]

3. The next Clinton?

Let me see --

According to the 1995 Newhouse News Service article Dean said the way to balance the budget is for Congress to move the retirement age to 70, cut defense, Social Security, Medicare and veterans' pensions, and then have the states cut almost everything else.

At the time, Dean was Vermont's governor and ahriman of the National Governors' Association.

Nope - dont' think so.

Although I will support him if he gets the nomaination. No matter what I think of him, he's better than shrub.

[Gringo]

20. Actually - that makes him more like Clinton

"According to the 1995 Newhouse News Service article Dean said the way to balance the budget is for Congress to move the retirement age to 70, cut defense, Social Security, Medicare and veterans' pensions, and then have the states cut almost everything else."

Clinton eviscerated welfare and bombed Iraq on an almost weekly basis. How is Dean a winger for proposing a rise in the retirement age when life expectancies are rising, and SS faces solvency problems?

[silverlib]

59. Maybe later retirement will work for you

but for the many Americans that work outdoors and at physical jobs, this is a disaster. My husband is a proud union carpenter and it is not any easy job. I sit at a desk to work. I can handle it, but his back hurts all the time. The many years of physical labor are taking their toll. It was 105 degrees in my town today.

[TLM]

26. Why are you quoting the answer to a hypothetical question...

about what would need to be done to meet the requirements of a balanced budget amendment in 95 as if it were an actual policy statement?

[silverlib]

57. Because this is an important issue

He said it and said he did not say it. Then he said he said it and today in Iowa he again said he did not say it. It's not so much that he said it or didn't say it -- I just wish he would quit bouncing on the subject.

[w4rma]

56. "A better solution, he said, would be to..."

...
During an appearance on NBC's "Meet the Press" in June, Dean said an increase to age 70 is no longer necessary, but he would entertain an increase to 68.

He said the way to balance the budget now is to repeal President Bush's tax cuts and restrict spending. He said to balance Social Security, he would consider raising the retirement age to 68 and letting more salary above $87,000 fall under the payroll tax.

On Wednesday, Dean said since his appearance on "Meet the Press," he has consulted with experts and concluded that no increase in the retirement age would be necessary. A better solution, he said, would be to raise the salary limit.

"I'm willing to take it off entirely if we need to," he said.
...
http://www.newsday.com/news/politics/wire/sns-ap-dean-social-security,0,2509226.story?coll=sns-ap-politics-headlines
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=54995&mesg_id=54995

[blm]

4. Can you detail this?

Can you explain how Dean "created" the "incredible model" health care system in Vermont that supplies the entire population with access to health insurance, and how he made sure the lower incomes were taken care of?

>>>
The health care system he created in Vermont is an incredible model, supplying the entire population with access to health insurance and making sure the people in the lower stratas of income are taken care of.
>>>

[sangha]

19. I doubt it

"Glittering generalities" seems to be the theme here

[TLM]

30. SUre... but you'll just ignore it and keep bashing...

On health care Dean expanded existing programs to cover everybody. With exception of 2 or 3 percent of adults and 1 percent of kids who are not eligible, VT covers everybody.

As for lower incomes... success by six, day care, health care, programs to keep dads involved... etc.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

31. His success has been unprecidented and incredible

The guy is truly amazing.

[blm]

55. TV said Dean created these programs

when I am pretty sure that most of the programs were in place (some of them renamed under dean) and 91% of the pop. was covered when Dean took office. Clinton's CHIPS program drafted by Kennedy and Kerry helped expand federal healthcare to all children in every state. While I will grant any governor who worked to expand healthcare at that time, I am definitely interested in understanding exactly how Dean "created" all these amazing programs singlehandedly.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

64. No one does anything singlehandedly

But to deny that he was the leader behind these incredible triumphs of policy is to be unfair.

Howard Dean leads. Howard Dean inspires.

[sangha]

66. Like I told you, blm

"glittering generalities" like "The guy is truly amazing" and "Howard Dean leads."

[ThorsteinVeblen]

70. What you would you like sangha?

"Details", "minutiae", "subtle arguments", "intricate equivocations".

The American people vote on generalites.

The reason why the Democratic Party is falling apart is because they don't understand this.

Perhaps you don't think there is such a thing as a "leader". That somehow everything is the result of luck and the grace of God and entitlement. That is why we fail. That is why Howard Dean is the only answer in 2004.

[sangha]

75. You can put away the thesaurus

The word you're looking for is "facts"

[TLM]

79. I posted programs... and you ignored them.

Guess the facts got in the way of your Dean bashing.

[sangha]

81. non-responsive

the question is *HOW* did Dean "create" those programs. So far, the only "fact" we've gotten from you is that Dean gives you "chills"

[TLM]

90. Oh for christ's sake... this is stupid...

Dean was gov, he appointed Con Hogan as Secretary of the Agency of Human Services who instituted the success by six program in vermont based on the model of a united way program that was in place in minnesota.

Here is what Hogan had to say about Dean;s roll...

"But it wasn't the process and the structure that really took root; it was the results. As a result of that work, we ended up with over 90 percent of all newborns receiving early baby visits from those Success by Six local collaboratives. We were able to lower the lead levels in babies' brains in one half as a result of those visits. We were able to reduce teen pregnancies, we were always low, but they plunged at a rate much quicker than the in the rest of the nation, to the lowest in the nation. And we were able to reduce child sexual abuses, the worst kind, in 0 to 3, by 60 percent. I mean these were the results of that way of thinking. Because if you're abused, you're not going to make it in school. So that way of thinking and then engage in the local communities, that work is really what the excitement of those years was all about, and Howard Dean saw it, promoted it, pushed us, and really made it possible for a bureaucracy as big as the one I was running to be able to change in those kinds of directions."

[sangha]

94. non-responsive

No one asked what some third party thought of Dean's efforts to "create" the "health care system" in VT. To paraphrase, blm asked "What specifically did Dean DO to create the health care system in VT?"

[TLM]

100. You had to delete half the question asked and ignore half my answer.

Here is the whole question:

"Can you explain how Dean "created" the "incredible model" health care system in Vermont that supplies the entire population with access to health insurance, and how he made sure the lower incomes were taken care of?"

In my answer I pointed out that Dean did not create the health care programs, but exampned existing programs so the question is bogus and loaded.

So I pointed out the programs Dean did create, that "made sure the lower incomes were taken care of?" Hence the fact you edited that question out... since it screwed up your bashing BS.


"No one asked what some third party thought of Dean's efforts to "create" the "health care system" in VT."

That 3rd party was the person DEAN APPOINTED... let me say that again since you seem too damn focused on bashing to comprehend Dean's role in this. DEAN APPOINTED HOGAN as Secretary of the Agency of Human Services. What do you think the VT Agency of Human Services does?

Gosh could it be establishing and administrating health and human services programs like the ones you just asked about? Do you think just maybe the Secretary of the Agency of Human Services has a pretty good grasp on how Dean made the programs possible?

Not only did DEAN APPOINT this guy, but he then accoridng to hogan worked hard to make it possible for the Agency of Human Services to do exactly what you and BLM are trying to say Dean had nothing to do with.

[TLM]

78. And notice that my post pointing to specific programs was ignored...

so the Dean basher could jump to your comments and say only generalities were posted.

[sangha]

83. non-responsive

the question isn't "What pgms did Dean create?"

The question is "HOW did Dean create those pgms?"

[TLM]

95. See the above post on the sucess by six program...

[sangha]

99. It's non-responsive

.

[TLM]

102. It directly answered the question about Dean roll in the programs.

Sticking your head in the sand and repeating the same lie, won't change the fact that I answered your question.

[blm]

72. So you say. Show the facts

and let us all in on how he created these programs.

[sangha]

76. The same way he "created" civil unions

Someone else did the work, and Dean grabbed the credit.

[TLM]

80. Funny shanga... each time I hear Dean talk about civil unions

he says that he singed the civil unions act... not that he wrote it or introduced it.


Perhaps you can cite where Dean said this?

[ThorsteinVeblen]

82. You're right

Those things just "happened" during his tenure as Governor of Vermont. Apparently I was wrong when I though that a Governor makes any decisions on what programs to create and advocate. Somebody else obviously made the decision to support these programs and then surruptiously funneled budget money for the creation of these programs. Howard Dean was an elected figurehead who held no power in Vermont and for me to imply otherwise was incredibly wrong. Sorry.

I feel like Al Gore saying I "invented the internet". I am so embarrased.

[sangha]

85. Yes, you were wrong

when you though that "a Governor makes any decisions on what programs to create and advocate." That's the legislatures job also.

You did know that it's the Legislature that controls the purse string, didn't you?

[ThorsteinVeblen]

88. No I didn't know that the Legilsature controls the money

I now noe that Vermonts' Guvernnor holds no power at all and thank u for edgeucating mee.

May bee we should elect the speeker of Vermont's House. What's his nayme? Obviously he is the one who creeated and funded these programs so wee shuld elect him president.

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TLM]

91. Nobody claimed that Dean CREATED ALL of the programs.

Rather than he had a hand in the creation of some and took leadership rolls in promoting others, and expanding others.

"and Howard Dean saw it, promoted it, pushed us, and really made it possible for a bureaucracy as big as the one I was running to be able to change in those kinds of directions."


Are you really this fucking desperate for Dean bashing?

[sangha]

92. Holy crap! You're right!!!

From the initial post:

The health care system he created in Vermont is an incredible model, supplying the entire population with access to health insurance and making sure the people in the lower stratas of income are taken care of.

Dean didn't create a program. He created the "health care system"

Before Dean, all they had was some dead chickens to wave around.

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

93. Hey Sangha

I have sworn to not attack rival candidates so I am going to keep my word.

But you are another matter - If you are going to sit there and play little semantic games and pillory me or Howard Dean like the Republicans pilloried Al Gore for saying "I took the initiative on creating the internet" you are not worth my time.

For your perusal here is the definition of the word create:

1.) To cause to exist; bring into being. See Synonyms at found1.
2.) To give rise to; produce: That remark created a stir.
3.) To invest with an office or title; appoint.
4.) To produce through artistic or imaginative effort: create a poem; create a role.

I said nothing to even remotely imply that Howard created these programs "alone" or "singlehandedly" or "by himself". My implication was that Howard Dean was a leader and definately a part of the creation and/or expansion of these incredible programs. As governor of Vermont at the time these programs were implemented, he was an important part and deserves credit for his vision and leadership.

For you to imply that he had no contribution to these programs is ridiculous and idiotic and a waste of my fucking time.

This conversation is over. I leave the ultimate decision on the winner of the argument with the people who would peruse this thread.

[sangha]

97. That's definitely not going to work

I'm not going anywhere, and certainly not because of anything you say. I'll patronize, or not, whomever I want to, whenever I want to. You shouldn;t get so emotional about this. You wouldn't want to lose those "Dean-chills" you've been savoring, now would you?

You said that Dean "Created the health care system in VT". blm asked "how?"

We're still waiting for an answer. So far, you can't point to any one thing he did (besides giving you cholls) that demonstrates the leadership or vision you seem to think he has.

[TLM]

107. Are you really that ignorant of what the Agency of Human Services does?

"We're still waiting for an answer. So far, you can't point to any one thing he did (besides giving you cholls) that demonstrates the leadership or vision you seem to think he has."

I did just that, and the fact you continue to ignore it, does not change the fact that...


Dean was gov, he appointed Con Hogan as Secretary of the Agency of Human Services who instituted the success by six program in vermont based on the model of a united way program that was in place in minnesota.

Here is what Hogan had to say about Dean;s roll...

" Howard Dean saw it, promoted it, pushed us, and really made it possible for a bureaucracy as big as the one I was running to be able to change in those kinds of directions."

[TLM]

86. How about the fact that the post to which you are responding....

did not contain the statement that Dean created the programs, but rather that he was a leader on these policy issues.


If this is how you distort statements here when they are right in front of you in black and white... how can we trust any of the thing you claim to have heard TV say about Dean?

[TLM]

74. You are really reaching....

Dean did create programs like success by six and some programs that built on to existing programs.

However I've never heard him claim that he created the programs like CHIPs or that he created medicare... just that he expanded them so everybody was covered.

[Woodstock]

104. Great job hanging in there, TLM, but it's pointless

They bash, therefore they are.

[TLM]

108. Oh I know the bashers are immune to facts...

I just wated to make sure the answer was out there to show just how full of shit the bashers are.

[Egnever]

111. You did a great job too!

Thanks for that!

[ThorsteinVeblen]

112. TLM

You have much more patience with ignorance and idiocy than I.

You are a good man.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

5. Clinton Put The South And Border States In Play

and he ranks as one of the most charismatic figures of the twentieth century.

[Bake]

22. To say nothing of the fact that the Big Dog is undeniably

One of the most brilliant politicians -- in the technical sense of the word politician -- in a century.

Bake

[ThorsteinVeblen]

32. Dean will prove his ability at tactical politics

when he goes up against Rove.

[Larkspur]

6. He's a cross between Clinton and Gore

Howard Dean has the morals and personal sense of responsiblity that Al Gore has and the political tact and sense of strategy that Clinton had.

The only thing Dean lacks now that Clinton had was the ability to relate to the camera, and if he takes Clinton's advice on how to view the camera -- pretend you are addressing millions of your adoring fans and no Repukes or media critics are in sight -- Dean will quickly conquer the camera, like Clinton did. He was much better on the Today show. Haven't see his Larry King interview or the AFL-CIO debates yet. Will do that this weekend. On a personal level, Dean relates very well to ordinary folks. Even though he doesn't know you, he's excited about meeting you. That's what I saw when I met him in Portsmouth, NH in July.

In the end, Howard Dean will be better than Clinton, because unlike Clinton, who could woo a crowd, Dean will be able to rejuvenate the Democratic Party with new enthusiasm and new blood up the ranks of the party.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

9. I've got chills.

The guy has got an incredible amount of talent and if, as you said, he works on his television presentation, he is going to be unstoppable.

[Larkspur]

65. Dean reminds me alot of Harry Truman more than Clinton

He's got the same feistiness that Truman had. By today's standards, Truman would not be considered telegenic, like Clinton is, but he was a great leader.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

116. I think you're right.

[sangha]

7. Not true

Unlike most other states during these dark economic times, Vermont has a balanced budget - a shining example of the kind of responsibilty, can-do-attitude and work ethic that drives Howard Dean.

Every state in the union has balanced budgets. With the exception of VT, ALL states require a balanced budget.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

8. Really

States were flush in the 90's due to the Clinton boom.

Now that the Clinton boom is over, states have found their coffers empty. That's why Gray Davis is being crucified.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

10. No 23 states out of 50 are running HUGE DEFICITS.

Look it up.

That is the big reason why Gray Davis is going down.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

12. Now-But Not In The 90's

States were flush in the 90's

[ThorsteinVeblen]

14. Because of the Clinton's leadership and fiscal policies.

[sangha]

16. No those states have no BUDGET deficit

They are PROJECTED deficits. By the time they pass a budget, it will be balanced. It's the law.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[w4rma]

58. I believe,all states except for VT have a balanced budget ammendment (n/t)

[sangha]

67. CA has no budget deficit

CA has a projected deficit. By the time an actual budget gets passed and signed, it will be balanced.

The law requires it.

[Melinda]

17. Can you point me toward those 23 states?

Googling madly brings up this:

States Balance Budgets Without Broad Tax Hikes, New NCSL Report Shows, but I can't seem to find a list of those 23 states.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

39. Article.

http://www.missoulian.com/bonus/balance/bal10.html

[Pastiche423]

15. Totally untrue

I know for a fact that my state, Oregon cannot balance our budget. And we, by far, are not alone.

[sangha]

18. I am right. Oregon has no budget deficit

It has a PROJECTED deficit, meaning that if revenues and spending continue as they are, there will be a deficit. But as we all know, revenues and spending will NOT continue "as they are" because the law requires that the budgets passed by Oregon's State Legislature must be balanced.

It's the law.

[Pastiche423]

27. Wrong

In early July, state Treasurer Randall Edwards warned that he might have to start sending out IOUs if the Legislature didn't balance the state budget by the first week in August.

Well, August has arrived with no budget deal in sight.


Budget stall

[sangha]

71. Right

According to that article, Oregon hasn't passed their budget, therefore it cannot be in deficit because it doesn't exist.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

29. Touche

Vermont had no projected deficit because of Howard Dean's brilliant managment.

[sangha]

69. Much better

Now are you willing to say the same about Pataki?

[ThorsteinVeblen]

84. Pataki isn't running for President.

[sangha]

87. Ducking the question?

.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

98. What fucking quesiton?

[dajabr]

28. Speaking on behalf of my fellow NJ/NY area residents...

The fact that you are technically right does not offer much comfort.

[UrbScotty]

11. Basic math: Clinton - scandal = Dean

He could be the next JFK, I think.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

13. He has that much charisma

He just needs to work on his TV presence.

[friendofbenn]

21. yeah he is the next clinton

a good thing? :shrug:

[Uzybone]

24. at least wait

until he is elected president before you start comparing Dean to Clinton.

[sangha]

25. No

Clinton was a liberal who sometimes acted like a moderate. Dean is a moderate who sometimes acts like a liberal

[Woodstock]

106. Clinton was a moderate

You are so intent on bashing Dean that you wish to rewrite history?

[TheBigGuy]

33. Dean doesnt have Clintons' charisma and charm

none of the candidates really do have the Clinton vibe.

When it comes to policy, yes both Clinton and Dean have "executive" experience as Governors of their respective states. and appear to be pragmatic centerists. So I can see a similiarity there.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

36. I was waiting for somebody to say that

Bill Clinton was sui generis.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

37. Oh, I beg to differ. Dean is incredibly charismatic.

[TheBigGuy]

38. "incredibly charsimatic"? I'd like to hear what the other DUers say.

I must be missing somehting here. Dean isnt as charismatic as Clinton...I think its time for a poll...

To meDean is no more charismatic than Graham or maybe Kerry and perhaps a little less charismatic than Edwards.

[Eloriel]

62. I think he's incredibly charismatic

But it's quite different from, say, Clinton's charisma.

Eloriel

[Upfront]

101. Me To

Dean also reminds in some ways of Bobby Kennedy, and that is good where I come from.

[helleborient]

96. Charismatic definitely

A smile that lights up his face and his demeanor...that's more a Jimmy Carter than Bill Clinton thing

[Woodstock]

109. He has the quality of someone you'd follow into battle

You trust him to make the right decisions. He has a moral center that comes through. A wry sense of humor. And a very nice smile - he should smile more often on camera.

Different than Clinton, but I like him every bit as much.

And I think he'll make more sucessful president than Clinton, because for starters, he'll be more wise where he unzips.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

117. A true leader

A true fighter. A man with a moral compass.

[mandyky]

35. A "genuine" Clinton with little baggage but

a bit Gore-ish, stiffness wise.

And Dean was the first candidate to really compliment Clinton Gore admin etc.

I also think Dean is very aware of what and why what happened to Bill Clinton happened, and hopefully, when he gets the nomination, one of his first calls for help goes out to BC, for advice on getting on the fast track from outsider to insider.. hopefully without Mellon Scaife, L. Goldberg and the other witch hunters after him.

[Cornus]

40. No

Clark is the next Clinton.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

41. Clark hasn't even decided if he is a Democrat

much less if he is running for president.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

42. He Hasn't Decided To Run For President

but any fair reading of his views would lead one to believe he is a Democrat.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

43. Clark came out himself he hasn't decided if he is a Democrat.

http://www.draftclark.com/archives/003055.shtml


MR. RUSSERT: So you would run as a Democrat?

GEN. CLARK: Well, I haven’t come out and said that point blank. I mean, I think that’s another step that would have to be taken.

MR. RUSSERT: But you wouldn’t challenge George Bush in the Republican primaries?

GEN. CLARK: I haven’t considered that, no.

MR. RUSSERT: So it would be in the Democratic primary?

GEN. CLARK: You’re leading the witness here. I mean, that’s a step that I’ll have to work through along with everything else. You know, I’ve been non-partisan. I’ve got—I’m a centrist on most of these issues, and I’ve got people after me from both sides of the aisle. That are—a lot of Republicans have talked to me and they’ve said, “Look, we’re very concerned about where the country is. We’re moving into—not only have we done a war that’s essentially an elective war that’s put us in trouble afterwards, in an indefinite commitment”—and by the way I don’t hear—they don’t hear the strong voices out there
about mission creep and exit strategy that dominated the 1990s dialogue. But a lot of Republicans have come to me and said, you know, “What does this mean?” And they’ve said, “On the other hand, we always believed that we should be the party of fiscal responsibility. And where are we going with the tax cuts? What does this mean for the future of the country?” So I’m getting, you know, interest from both sides, really...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

44. Let Me Give You Several Positions And You Tell Me If The Person Is

a Dem or a Rep.

Pro-choice

Pro-affirmative action

Pro gay rights

Anti- Bush tax cuts

Anti Iraq war

[ThorsteinVeblen]

47. From his own mouth

General Wesley Clark is considering joining the Republican party.

He kind of sounds like Olympia Snowe or Jim Jeffords before he jumped ship. Maybe Micheal Bloomberg.

There are moderates in the Republican party you know.

[JI7]

45. dean is no bill clinton

howard dean is no bill clinton. not even close.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

46. Some folks weren't

satisfied with Bill Clinton they compared him with John Kennedy.

Hang around, the Jefferson comparisons are inevitable.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

48. Ahhh, but he is

He is Bill Clinton in 1991.

[Catherine Vincent]

50. No one is better than big dog Clinton, baby!

eom

[ThorsteinVeblen]

51. He may not be better than Clinton

but man, I haven't felt like this about a Democratic canidate since Clinton.

[Lost_Stash_Of_Dubya]

60. Same here

And it's important to remember that in 88 Clinton wasn't the icon we remember him as now. Maybe Dean will age the same way.

[Pepperbelly]

52. blah-blah-blah ...

either this thread is the most incredible blue-sky speculating I have ever seen or just more campaign propaganda. The hard truth is that we haven't a clue whether Dean will even be nominated, much less elected. We know even less what sort of job he mnight actually do.

The only thing that I am certain of is that he would be better than Bush by far.

[jfkennedy]

53. Dean is the next Ralph Nader

Dean fits the same exact pattern as Nader. Nader was being used by the
Republican Party, to divide the Democratic Party in the 2004 election.

Trust me I used to be a peace activist. Liberalism is very unpopular as well as is being antiwar or for a peace movement, all is very unpopular to Americans. In fact traditional Democrats like Clinton and the DLC hate liberals.

About the only reason why liberals such as myself would vote democratic even though we had no support from labor or democrats or the party was that Democrats were more tolerant of liberals.

Though I hate the word liberal and feel my philosophy is much more then a label.

The Republicans as you can see in California can make anything popular if they control the media including something like Dean they can make popular overnight for the left just as they did Nader. Any real liberal would never of even made it in the door of Madison Square Garden to be the liberal voice of the people, as did Nader whom they made into the great liberal to save us all. Wake up. The Republicans even on Election Day sponsored Nader by buying his anti-Gore ads in swing states. The scriptwriters know that they can take away Deans popularity by just putting out few John Wayne Prowar movies, right before the 2004 election.

Clark and Alex Baldwin is the only ticket that can win against the Bush factor.

http://antiwarmonger.com

[ryharrin]

54. You're pretty wrong on this one.

He is different for three reasons. 1. He is a democrat. 2. It is very likely that he will be the Democratic presidential nominee. 3. He has a pretty damn good chance of becoming president.

[Eloriel]

61. Both better and different from Clinton

I don't think Dean is "the most talented politician since Bill Clinton," I think that designation really will stay with Clinton.

What I see in Dean transcends that, in a way.

Ih8thegop brought up a JFK comparison. I hesitate a little going there, but for ME Dean is the JFK of this era. I don't find him Kennedyesque -- no one comes close to that, not even Clinton. And Clinton is in his own special category.

I see Dean as a cross between Truman, Kennedy and perhaps Mr. Smith (of Mr. Smith Goes to Washington? I've never seen it, is that the story of a wonderful average American who does good things in Washington?). Someone enthused on the Official Blog several weeks ago: do you ever get the feeing you're an extra in a Frank Capra movie?

Yes. I do.

I watched his appearance tonight. Not smooth, particularly. But so damned honest. So real and authentic. So much CHARACTER. A genuinely good and decent man, with eminently good sense and a direct, clear, no-nonsense style.

I am simply dazzled by this guy. It's been many years since I've felt this level of hope, this level of empowerment re our government. This level of interest in participation BECAUSE IT MEANS SOMETHING with Dean. And that's precisely what makes me haul out the JFK comparison -- I haven't felt this way, this un-cynical, since Kennedy. And I'm loving it. It bouys me, inspires and feeds me.

And the campaign dazzles me too. He has staff people who read ALL the comments on the blog. Those ideas get incorporated into Dean's campaign. I keep saying this: this is the first truly interactive campaign. I'm not talking about the internet feature of interactivity, but about the CAMPAIGN. This campaign is listening; DEAN is listening. The MeetUp volunteers are self-organizing, and they feed ideas up to the campaign, and those get posted to the blog and then other MeetUp volunteers or supporters adopt them. Sure there's some "direction" from HQ, but not all that much.

Someone pointed out that this campaign with the grassroots volunteers self-organizing parallels the way Open Source Code is developed in a really good post I wish I'd saved.

There's evidence of how he listens and responds in his June 23 Announcement speech. He lays out the several things (deficit, etc.) that made him decide to run. And then he goes on to say that as he met people while campaigning, he realized that this campaign was about a lot more than that. He took on a much higher purpose in addition to the tangible issue-oriented things that he's passionate about. I'd encourage people to read it. It's a beautiful speech he wrote himself, as he writes most of his speeches at this point.

I understand there are people who don't care for him. But I also see a lot of people who don't care for him who haven't bothered to take an actual look at him and his campaign -- they're parroting warmed over pundit pap which is warmed over conventional wisdom and quite simply, none of that applies to Dean. This is a NEW phenomenon in our political history. And I have enormous respect and awe that the campaign -- Trippi and Dean and whoever else -- have been smart enough and uncontrolling enough to allow that to happen, because that's what it took: stepping back and allowing it and encouraging it in the right ways at the right times.

The only way for people to really understand what it is about Dean and the Dean campaign is to go directly to the source, because I've seen maybe ONE column or article in all this time that pretty much had it right about Dean for America. And even that fell short.

Dean has also changed ME. Rather dramatically, I've been realizing today and yesterday. Here's another quote from a comment on the blog that touches on it: "Gov. Dean makes me want to be a better American." I'd put it somewhat differently for myself: Dean has made ME feel that it's still possible for citizens to be involved, have their voices heard, make a difference, and that America's values are still alive and can triumph over all this darkness.

I think we have a wonderful slate of candidates, but by this time in my Dean immersion, I'll call it, everyone else pales in comparison to what I see in Dean, what I think Dean represents and offers, and what I think Dean can do in Washington. When I look at our Washington candidates, I see the same tired old ways of doing things. I see them having to follow Dean, adopt his language, soundbytes and some of his views. It's not going to work. They can't become Dean. And cheap imitations are just that. Maybe they'll be able to fool enough people, maybe some of their planned dirty tricks will defeat him. But I sure as hell hope not, because what Americans and Dean deserve, IMO, is for Dean to rise or fall on his own merits, not due to cheap dirty tricks, not co-option and containment, or whatever it is a certain campaign plans against him.

Dean has changed politics, and the seachange he represents will rock the world (in the best possible way), if allowed to continue to its logical conclusion.

Eloriel

[DemDogs]

63. Ask Clinton. Edwards is the next Clinton

Or, as Ron Brownstein put it, Clinton without the baggage.

[Woodstock]

110. Clinton has had nice things to say about Dean

Dean was a big Clinton supporter. He said the only person he asked if they were running before he ran was Hilary.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

68. Dean Is The Next Gary Hart Or Paul Tsongas

Another socially liberal and fiscally conservative intellectual. The only thing that distinguishes the good doctor is his anti-war stance.

[blm]

73. Hahah...Gary Hart would dispute that heartily.

Hart thinks Dean can't handle foreign policy. He doesn't think Lieberman can either.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

77. Gary Hart

has thought about foreign policy alot . I just think programatically and stylistically he's the heir to Gary Hart and Paul Tsongas.

When he's comapared to Clinton and JFK I have to chuckle.

[blm]

114. How do you stop at a chuckle?

;)

[Woodstock]

103. His appeal is much broader than is pegged by the media

At the last meetup, I saw quite a number of the over 50 crowd. The majority of the crowd was, I'd guess, in the 30-50 age range. Yet there was a nice amount of college aged people as well. And we had far more African Americans this time than ever before. And there were just as many women as men.

The media tries to paint him as only appealing to white male college kids, but they are, as usual, wrong.

[quinnox]

113. No, Dean reminds me of a Paul Tsongas

It remains to be seen whether his candidacy will go the same way.

[molly]

115. Nope - Hillary wanted to be involved

his wife does not - among other points - he does not have that Clinton charisma - Clinton was able to come off as a warm, intelligent guy even under extreme circumstances - Howard does not. I am not bashing Howard, you asked.