I Am A Veteran. I Have Seen The Torture Pics. I Tried To Post. I Can't.

[matcom]

I have tried to start at least 5 threads on the torture pictures. I can't bring myself to do it.

I'm a veteran (19k - M1A1 Tanker for you lurking Freeps). I know how the military works.

I know what they are taught. I know the mindset. This is not surprising to me. This IS the cause of my tears.

Am I surprised? Nope.
Am I amazed? Nope.
Am I saddened? My heart is shattered.

I had a 'run-in' with an INCREDIBLE friend of mine a few months back. My Friend is a PROMINENT DUer and we talk often. I mentioned that I 'knew' what the mindset was. I KNEW what was about to happen. We disagreed. I won. I was 'right'.

I am sorry.

I am sorry I was right. I am fucking SO FUCKING SORRY I WAS RIGHT.

This is NOT to claim victory. This is fucking nothing. This is bullshit. Fuck this.

FUCK THIS SHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am sorry. I don't know for what or why but SOMEBODY has to take responsability for this FUCKED UP BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HUMAN BEINGS ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO TREAT EACH OTHER THIS FUCKING WAY GODDAMMIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

FUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

sorry all. i'll take my chill pill now

[DrWeird]

1. You're country needs you again, friend.

The worst thing we can do is let this thing go forgotten.

[matcom]

3. I Earned "Ribbons"

show me where the FUCKING FENCE IS!!!!

i am completely ASHAMED

tonight, i am totally sorry i EVER signed up

DAMN

[DrWeird]

7. Don't be sorry.

As a veteran, you hold a lot more clout then pacificists like me.

Use it to do good.

[gottaB]

30. Fuck that, man --don't let them get to you

You are the patriot. You represent the best tradition of the military service. You have given this country something to be proud of.

They are disgraceful. They are an abonimation. They suck.

Do not let them have the last word. It's your country, goddammit. We need you.

Peace, Matcom

[matcom]

32. it IS my country

and THEY did this.

i'm not that happy for my country right now.

thank you. i did nothing special but THANK YOU

this is not about me or my service, this is about sorrow. and tears

[saigon68]

73. TIME TO GET YOUR BOOTS OUT !!!!!

TIME TO GET MARCHING AGAIN

LOOKS LIKE COWARD AND CHICKEN HAWK ARE HAVING A PARTY IN THE CITY
THIS FALL

We need to go there and say hi to them







The second and last Nixon Inaugural Convention Miami 1972

Ron Kovic in the chair front far right

[vetwife]

69. Matcom...My Namvet is still angry..he threw his away too

First..Matcom..Welcome Home...
My Namvet is still angry and sick. He hated this war from the beginning. Now he says we need some vets to do the same thing Kerry did. Step up from the Gulf and say Hey., they dehumanize you to the point you are not even sane. They will try and turn your mind to mush. You know what I am saying. They are saying to the public, this is disgusting and yet whispering in their ear..Kill ..Kill..Kill
and show no mercy ...
There needs to be some returning vets protesting !
I think what you are feeling is normal. I have lived with my namvet for years and he still is sick and now thanks to Vietnam 100 percent disabled.

[Redleg]

60. Don't be ashamed for those fuckups. Be proud you did your duty.

And be proud of who you are today.

[Indiana_Dem]

2. I share your emotions. n/t

[truth2power]

10. As do I, matcom.

I'm sickened by this, but I have heard Iraqis referred to as "ragheads" and worse by people who would know better if their brains were in gear, and I can't really say I'm surprised.

[happynewyear]

16. yes same here

I seen and heard worse myself but this is no excuse for what has happened. Who knows how many others have been tortured, beaten and killed. I am embarrassed myself by the actions of these "soldiers".

Very grim reality ...

:(

[dweller]

4. You've earned the right

to be outraged, and no apologies needed.

peace,
dp

[sweettater]

5. I feel your outrage

I truly do. I just can't express myself quite like you. My heart is shattered also. :cry:

[Mikimouse]

6. Don't even think about taking a chill pill!!!!

You don't need to take a chill pill if you are very upset about the pictures. What you need to do is recognize that yours is a healthy response to them. If you didn't feel sick right now, then you would have cause to worry. Sorry, very sorry that you were right, but frankly, it was predictable. Hang in there, and don't lose the anger and sadness you feel, but save it for the daily interactions with less informed people and use it wisely between now and November. Kudos and good thoughts to another human.

"Do you suggest that the Duke's son is an animal?"
Quite the contrary, young Atreides, I suggest that you might be human."

[Red_Viking]

8. Peace, brother

You're reacting exactly as a compassionate, thinking, feeling human being would. Be glad that you have the capacity to become outraged at this atrocity, instead of being immune to the brutality people are capable of.

Having a soul is a two-edged sword.

I also wept at the outrage I felt over the prisoners' treatment. The world around me seems to have slipped into insanity, where the US can rip babies from their mother's arms with cluster bombs, and all we care about is who The Donald fired. We are fat, stupid, and lazy. It shames me that we could allow others to be treated this way.

I hope those prisoners, the ones who survive, find some peace.

Wonder if the fucksticks in charge have ever seen "an eye for an eye" in action? Because I think they're about to. It's heartbreaking.

You're one of my DU heroes. I always read your posts. We have a virtual group hug going on!

:hug:

Namaste--

RV

[Vickers]

9. It pisses me off too, brother.

But hang on to your ribbons and medals...your grandkids will be rooting through your shit one day and be very proud of you.

[matcom]

18. fuck my ribbons

fuck them.

this is another post i have tried 5 times to reply to. sorry.

i can't think right now. sorry. it all just doesn't 'come out' right.

thanks though.

fuck

[Vickers]

41. Yeah, I know how you feel

I was about *this fucking close* to burning my Class A uniform a couple of years ago...I can't remember why now (I have since quit drinking). I don't even know why I'm keeping the damn thing.

Eh, I don't know what to tell you. These idiots make all military folks (and by extension America) look mean and stupid, and we're not (overall). Much the same way that many countries view us all as idiotic because the Prez is an idiot...unfair, but hey.

Anyway, no advice for you, bro, but just letting you know other folks feel like you and understand your anger and frustration.

Vickers

[LeahMira]

11. There's a reason...

... why you feel this way. I think it's because you are meant to do something about it. Be open to seeing what that is, and follow it where it takes you.

[GOPisEvil]

12. Don't apologize for your anger.

If you weren't angry, I'd be worried about you. The key is to channel that anger into something positive.

Peace, my brother. Let's work our asses off to end this bullshit as fast as we can.

[matcom]

25. there isn't much positive tonight pal

have been struggling for days. now i am just in tears.

literally

[Insider]

13. right with you on this

posted on another thread that it reminded me of the rodney king deal:
this is only what was caught on film. no doubt much more has happened daily in iraq, afghanistan, and guantanamo bay.

[KC21304]

14. Are you saying it is not acceptable behavior in the military,

during war, or just not acceptable to get caught ? How high up does the acceptablility go, if it is ? You are saying now, what John Kerry said 33 years ago if I am not mistaken.


On edit. You are courageous to come forward with this. The question I am trying to ask, and not very well, is how high up this mindset goes.

[Nlighten1]

15. I hear you Matcom.

We had classes on the Geneva Convention all the time. I find it hard to believe that these soldiers didn't know what they were doing was wrong.

That being said though...I have never been in a combat zone and I do know a lot about psychology. I remember vividly the experiments done by Stan Milgram so I don't doubt that this can happen.

[Dogmudgeon]

17. I had a similar experience last night

Two hours trying to compose a message. Several messages dragged to the recycle can. Then I gave up.

I'm not even a veteran. I was an army brat. I learned early not to ask "What did you do in the war, Daddy?" because Daddy would tell the truth, and the truth was pretty far afield from the patriotic movies I'd seen.

This kind of thing seems to happen in every war.

Heck, it's even difficult to write about writing about it.

--bkl

[CatWoman]

19. I can't bring myself to look at them

................

[GOPisEvil]

21. Me neither.

I'd want to break stuff.

[DrWeird]

27. I understand.

But I think you should look anyway. We owe it to them.

[Ladyhawk]

34. I've avoided looking.

But I think I need to. Can someone give me an URL?

[DrWeird]

43. Here's a few of them.

Couldn't find a link with all the photos:

http://houston.indymedia.org/news/2004/04/28819.php

Not shown: Iraqi beaten to death, electrocution, Iraqi being attack with dog, Iraqi being anal raped, Iraq being urinated upon by British soldier.

I expect more to come.

[Ladyhawk]

51. Oh my god.

Thank you...I think. :( I mean, thank you for the URL, but I now feel sick to my stomach.

[calimary]

20. Dear matcom - no need to apologize.

Civilian here.

About the only way I can REALLY empathize with you is the feeling I have about being correct (hate to say the word "right" anymore, for the connotations it's taken on) about the war. I was one of MANY here who protested the run-up to it, and its start. We were all saying things would happen the way they've turned out. Not about this, though. I doubt any of us could have predicted THIS. It's not in my comprehension that we'd do stuff like this. That ANYBODY would do stuff like this. Even so, I, too, am not proud to have been correct. I'm especially not proud that everything I did - did NOT work, and did NOT stop this war.

I mean, I hate bush like nobody's business, but I wouldn't want to see even him go through something like that. It makes liars and fiends out of all of us. That shit's been done in your name, AND mine, and it's just completely beyond reprehensible. It makes a mockery of anything we say about "gee, don't you think the Iraqis are better off now, without Saddam?" It makes a mockery of everything we said, in our higher high-fallutin' moments, that we aimed to do over there. It blights us all.

I guess, better to have it come out than remain hidden and have people deluded. I'm glad it's being covered. I'm glad the news media's on it, just as I'm glad the public is railing against Sinclair Broadcast Group for pre-empting tonight's "Nightline." I'm just hoping this will finally move our media (at least some of them) over the edge, and at long last, motivates them to start questioning this White House and holding it accountable. Sickening that it'd have to take something this heinous to reach that point. But none of the other realities worked - and they were bad enough.

Your anguish is duly noted. And felt, deeply, and shared. You don't have to be a veteran to feel about six inches tall about this. It's awful to have to say one is ashamed to be an American. But that's what we're left with. Gotta get these bastards OUT. OUT. OUT. OUT. OUT. If this doesn't put the kibosh to people whining about Kerry's reference to wartime "atrocities," I don't know what will. Sometimes wake-up calls are rather painful. I guess they have to be. Sad to say.

And by the way, matcom, if your heart is breaking - it means you HAVE one. Which is more than I can say for too many others "running" our country or this war.

[riverwalker]

22. humanity needs you

I don't know why, but Dietrich Bonhoffer just popped into my mind. He was the Lutheran theologian who in the midst of Nazi madness in Germany, said the same as you. Probably even used the same language, even though he was a minister. ;) But he was outraged, and spoke out. He was thrown in prison. He still spoke out. He was executed. But his writing live on, about conscience, and humanity, and dangers of nationalism.
What scares the hell out of me is the 36% in the CNN poll who were not disturbed by the photos. They would have been the folks who pretended not to see anything in 1943 if the Nazis kicked in your door and hauled you away. My Dad was a P.O.W. in Germany for ten months, and he was shocked at the CBS photos. He said they were treated like soldiers, not enough food, but nothing degrading.

[drfemoe]

29. do you have a link to that poll?

Even whoosh* is "disgusted".

In the face of international outrage, President Bush said Friday that he was disgusted by photographs first shown on CBS' "60 Minutes II" that apparently show American soldiers abusing detainees at a prison outside Baghdad. Meanwhile, a London newspaper published photos of alleged prisoner abuse at the hands of British soldiers.

http://www.cnn.com

[riverwalker]

37. there was a thread about it

earlier today.

[LWolf]

23. Here's a hand.

And an ear, and a hug.

:hug:

[shraby]

24. This is for you matcom..

((((((HUG)))))

[Hubert Flottz]

26. I HATE it too Mat!

Bush must not have shown up enough even to learn lesson number one! That lesson being to "GET HIS HEAD OUT OF HIS ASS"! We are getting more Nazified EVERY day under these radical bastards! Reminds me of how Himmler got sick and puked after watching the Einsatz Group shooting the Jews and making his speech about it being brutal but it being the soldiers duty! The SS Chief then began to seek cleaner easier ways to kill! Not easier on the victims, but on the SS troops doing the killing! I met people in the military who could have done the type of deeds these monsters in Iraq have done!

I too am saddened and sickened by what we have become! Those people being wronged for amusement or for whatever reason by Americans, have a soul equal to Bush's according to God's word! Bush may not have known this was going on, but his lies made it all happen! The blood is on Bushco's hands! The thing that sticks in my mind, is the fact that the DOD hinted at maybe using torture in their "War On Terror" months ago! Did Bush really not know this kind of thing was happening?

EDIT}} BTW what will we tell the children about this type of "LIBERTY" we are bringing to Iraq? What do you say to your kids about those photos?

[KC21304]

50. What will we tell the children, indeed.

That is what I would like to ask the right wing cabal who got their knickers in a bunch over Monica. I don't want to see them, but I guess I need to.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

28. Peace, brother

I shed tears as well. Humanity is humanity-we are all brothers. Sooner or later, everyone will realize it.

Ya Salaam.

[seventhson]

31. As a War Resister and veteran of the anti-war and civil rights movement

This horror surprises me not at at all.

We are killing our own children (or, rather, Bush is) by the thousands (and beliueve me the injured and wounded, many of them, will die from their wounds in days, weeks, and years to come) and the psychological torture of our own troops and their families is not really any different than what is happening here.

The Horror and outrage is justified and has been so for years. This Bush nazimafia is a group of fascist thugs.

I am honored to be in your company, Matcom, as in the company of any American who served well and proudly and justly.

But I wanted to tell you that your outrage at this point is not only justified but also an emotion that many many many of us have felt daily since Bush began this holocaust.

I am GLAD that there is something that touches our hearts in all of this madness as we Americans (the vast majority)seem content to let this annihilation of humanity to contrinue unabated and with little resistance.

As a veteran pacifist and activist I too share your shame and horror for we as Americans are ALL responsible for this.

Be pissed.

But post the pictures.

I haven't even seen them yet.

Two children (aged 15 months and ten years) in my community and friends of my kids were murdered this past week so we have been kind of in shock. I have not seen much news.

But this is exactly what I expect delights the necrophilic rumsfeld, wolfowitz and cheney et al.

[Nashyra]

33. Matcom

Thank you for your post. Your outrage is justified, you are what we think of when we think of our US Armed forces, you are what makes the difference for our great nation. We thank you for your service and share your outrage. It also saddens me that these soldiers even had to be there, a good questions would be to ask the * what do these images and 9-11 have in common? Zero 0 we should not even be in Iraq.

[Wonk]

38. Pics (& more) here for those who haven't seen them yet

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=109&topic_id=8317&mesg_id=8317

[nostamj]

35. isn't 'anger a gift'?

can't imagine being in your place. had a HIGH draft number and would certainly have played the 'gay' care as it was the truth.

(I like truth)

unlike some on this thread, I have looked at the pictures.

they are horrifying. revolting. the open GLEE of the tormentors, the ugliness of their behavior. tonight, they actually showed one of a British soldier urinating on a prisoner.

does war SO dehumanize the soldiers?
does war SO dehumanize the prisoners?

I have experienced having my self reduced to a vicious slur ("FAGGOT!!) devoid of my individual humantiy, but this it totally beyond my ability to grasp.

matcom, I wish you well. I hope you find the way to channel your rage into something positive again.

and, once again, I can't imagine being in your place.

nost

[elf]

36. Sir, no chill pill please!!!

I call you Sir to show you respect which you deserve!
After all you went through and saw, your still kept your sense of humanity, while others hide their cruel deeds behind "the war made me this way".
You remind me so much of my father, when he talks about WWII. He was a 18 years old soldier then. From his 12 male classmates 2 came back.
He taught me and my brother a lot and we are able to pass it on to our children.
Go on and tell the world, educate them!!! And do it your way!

[matcom]

40. please do NOT call me 'Sir'

i do not deserve it. i enlisted, did my time. that is all. i did it honorably, did my duty, pulled my weight. nothing more.

please. no 'sirs' not especially now. this is not what this rant is about.

thanks.

[elf]

45. OK, I understand

but that is my way to show you something (BTW. I'm German) and that's the reason why I might show my respect to you in this way :-)

[matcom]

46. i mean no disrespect

i thank you for your patronage. don't get me wrong. thank you. it is not deserved but thank you nonetheless

[greatauntoftriplets]

39. matcom, you are among friends here.

And you are so correct.

I never served, mostly because I am a woman -- and would have resisted had I been born with different plumbing.

But I came of age during the worst of Vietnam. Graduated from HS in 1967, so the guys my age who got drafted or enlisted were there for Tet. I also by proxy have learned the mindset, which is why so damn many Vietnam veterans to this day cannot talk about their experiences. Nearly 40 years later, they still have flashbacks.

A good friend is a psychiatric nurse at a VA hospital just outside Chicago. She has worked with many PTSD Vietnam-era patients for many years, and expects a big influx of men and women with similar symptoms again.

[Beacho]

42. This vet is thouroughly and completely pissed

19d(ca v scout for all you freetards)


I have a fairly cordial relationship with the righties in my environment, but today my message for the last week has been 'not today'.

A couple of them are vets as well, and I believe that they are stunned and don't know how to cope with it either.

These stupid assholes have endangered their fellow brothers and sisters in arms with their 'hijinks'.

I blame the environment of arrogant superiority and 'fuck the rest of the world' attitude made acceptable by the Right Wing Jingo machine.

These miscreants should be punished, but I blame the culture these assholes have been pushing for the last thirty years

[matcom]

44. i say let them go before an Iraqi Court Of Law

how is THAT for 'justice'?

[goclark]

53. That would be Justice matcom

You can bring us all so much wisdom.
And your honesty is to be valued by all of us.

Instead of that chill pill maybe you can get a donut and a cup of tea or coffee.
Do you have some friends and family members that you can call that would understand? Sometimes it helps for me to talk to my best friend when I'm feeling down a bit.

We are here for you.



:donut:

[G_j]

47. their crime was they "embarrassed"

the elite sadists by taking pictures. They are reflections of a mindset that has been nurtured, condoned and rewarded. Now they will take the fall and deflect America's gaze away from the mirror it just got a frightening and unwanted glimpse into, a glimpse of itself.
Bush and every cheerleader for this war are responsible. Crimes against humanity.. twisted psychopaths playing with their cluster bombs, daisy cutters and napalm


& lets not forget, the US still has over 20,000 Iraqis in prison.

[Aristus]

48. Big, manly hug for you, tanker-buddy!

((((((((((matcom))))))))))

Hang in there, dude.

[dogman]

49. There are more questions I have.

Who were these MPs? Regular Army, Reserves, or NG? Many Reserve and NG MP units are made up of policemen from back here. How does this reflect on them? We know from the past that many end up sharing the shame of a few. Also some of these atrocities were carried out by "contractors". Once again we are faced with waging war with mercenaries who have no UCMJ to control their actions. Privatized war is bullshit. How long before these neo-con-nazis inflict this scourge on the people of this country?

[Ladyhawk]

52. Matcom, you are one of my DU heroes.

I'm really sorry you are feeling so down, but as nearly everyone else has already pointed it, your pain shows you are human.

(((((((((((((((BIG HUGS))))))))))))))

[Tinoire]

54. I share your outrage and will meet you at that fence

My ribbons mean total shit to me now.

Join up with Vets for Peace if you haven't already.

It's time for more ceremonies.

On edit :hug:

[GirlinContempt]

55. I wish I knew what to say

:hug:
:grouphug:

[Zomby Woof]

56. I share your anger

Fucking CHIMP knows NOTHING about SHIT, and will NOT acknowledge that the BUCK STOPS HERE.

He ENCOURAGES that mindset (I know of what you speak) with his swagger and twang and unmitigated arrogance. The rot starts at the top with these fucktwats.

Hang in there brother, you KNOW we all got your back.

[Don_G]

57. I Have A Cousin

Who served in Vietnam....

Bronze Star, Silver Star with two clusters, Purple Heart or two and he can't talk about it either without recalling the nightmares incurred earlier.

Wanna see a Ranger live with his conscious since '69 because a teen-ager was told "Gooks" were "Gooks?"

[SarahB]

58. I feel the same way.

The mindset that allows people to dehumanize others to the point that they are capable of doing something like this is so foreign to me that I can't begin to understand their motivations. Even when you don't look at it from a humanitarian perspective, it's just another foreign policy disaster on top of so many foreign policy disasters. It sure isn't going to do anything to improve how the world views Americans.

[Skittles]

59. I hear you Matcom

I feel the same way.

[LibertyorDeath]

61. Thanks matcom.....

[VelmaD]

62. To quote what a PROMINENT DUer tells me...

and I'm pretty sure it's the same one..."anger is a gift".

Stay mad matcom but don't let it eat you up inside. Use it to motivate you to do whatever you can to stop this runaway train.

Btw, as the sister, cousin, and niece of about a dozen service members...thank you for your service. And thank you for being a fine example of what a veteran ought to be.

:hug:

[proud patriot]

63. ((((HUGS)))))

It sucks being right sometimes

[Elidor]

64. Right-wingers have said in past wars that our troops should not be police

I would add that they should not be jailers, either, despite the presence of corrections officers in the military. And no case can be made for military police as jailers. They are trained to handle military prisoners, most of whom are of the US military.

Put them in charge of a prison filled with people of an alien culture who speak a different tongue. Many of these people are not even valid detainees under international law. Add the soldiers' complete ignorance of the shame/honor dialectic inherent in arab culture. It's a recipe for disaster.

I don't propose excusing the obviously shameful behavior of our troops, who should be held accountable to the letter of the law. But I feel that we've put them in a situation where their worst behavior is encouraged, both by the environment and by their superiors.

The worst part of it all is that the story that's coming out is indicative of a general and profound level of contempt for Iraqis by our troops. If we're hearing about stuff like this now, there is far worse we have yet to hear about. God help us all.

[LeinesRed]

65. They let our country down

they let the world down...they let our youth down. How in the hell am I supposed to explain this to my students in social studies class?

[goclark]

66. How Are You Doing Today?

Just checking to see how you ar feeling today.
Let us know.
Thanks

[matcom]

67. just as pissed off as last night

even more

[xultar]

68. We love you matcom!!

As for a chill pill I'd recommend Lexapro. It is a wonder what it can do.

[xchrom]

70. you are not them

that's all i can tell you -- intention is sometimes all we get to make a difference.
it's horrifying that this happened -- and yes it happened in america's name.
but i am not the torturers and neither are you.

[Forkboy]

71. You're a good man

We need a lot more like you.

Dont ever take that chill pill!

[Tellurian]

72. Hi Matcom-

Thanks for posting with us and sharing your feeling with us.

It means a great deal to us to know what is going on in Iraq.

Call Sen. Kerry's office and ask to speak to him direct.



{{{HUGS}}} Matcom...

[mopaul]

74. smash it down

Carl Sandburg (1878–1967). Chicago Poems. 1916.

53. Ready to Kill


TEN minutes now I have been looking at this.
I have gone by here before and wondered about it.
This is a bronze memorial of a famous general
Riding horseback with a flag and a sword and a revolver on him.
I want to smash the whole thing into a pile of junk to be hauled away to the scrap yard.
I put it straight to you,
After the farmer, the miner, the shop man, the factory hand, the fireman and the teamster,
Have all been remembered with bronze memorials,
Shaping them on the job of getting all of us
Something to eat and something to wear,
When they stack a few silhouettes
Against the sky
Here in the park,
And show the real huskies that are doing the work of the world, and feeding people instead of butchering them,
Then maybe I will stand here
And look easy at this general of the army holding a flag in the air,
And riding like hell on horseback
Ready to kill anybody that gets in his way,
Ready to run the red blood and slush the bowels of men all over the sweet new grass of the prairie.

[democrank]

75. Matcom.....

Hang in there with us. Help us figure out what we can do. I was up until 4:00 a.m. thinking about all this. When I went to democrats.com this morning I saw photos there that disturbed me beyond words,abuse involving Iraqi women. I can`t even type any more.....

[haele]

76. I'm with ya ...

It's been difficult to deal with out here in NavyTown. The Navy and Marine Corps folks here are going very quiet when this subject comes up - no one seems to want to believe it's happened and no one seems to want to talk the breakdown that caused these incidents yet.
No excuses for any of these losers or those who allowed them to continue their rampage - bring them all and their chain of command up on charges.
This sort of atrocity has it's roots from the top of the chain down. Starting with "make excuses for everything by talking in circles" Rumsfield and his "boss" the one who could care less about anything but looking good and winning with the least amount of effort expended. Both have (supposedly) served - and should be aware of the articles of the UCMJ, the creed of the American Serviceman, and the Geneva Convention.
I'd be happy to see all of them - from the top, down to those who did the deeds - living in Ft. Leavenworth for a nice, long time - let's see the difference they're treated by the guards there is from the way they treated those under their care.

Goddess bless, it infuriates me to see this sort of shit go on.
I know there's an undercurrent of savagery and prejudice in the service and that in times of stress - like being under fire - some people snap and revert. That's what a good chain of command is supposed to prevent - and make an example of so atrocities like this don't keep happening.
That this did happen is a mortal insult to all of us in the military, past and present. It endangers their fellow service members, by smearing them with the shit they pulled. Others don't see individuals who wear the uniform - all they see is the uniform and what it now stands for, thanks to these jerks - brutality, rape and torture of civilians under occupation.
And it should also be an insult to all of us who are Americans - to mothers and fathers, teachers, civic leaders - everyone. Because the action of these jerks is just further proof to make it seem that it was "America" that raised them to think that brutality, rape and torture of foreigners is okay.

How could anyone who believes in justice for all or even just for personal responsibility condone this?
There's something seriously wrong with anyone who has little or no problems with those pictures. And anyone who just mouths words of shock - yet doesn't do anything about them should they have the ability to do so has even worse moral issues in their souls.

I want to see a just (not just a sham or kangaroo) trial and prison bars for those responsible for this - and for those responsible in any similar activity in Iraq or any other foreign location where American service members and "civilian advisers" are posted.

Because of losers like these, Americans can't be viewed with any trust anywhere else in the world. When does this message get through to the general public?

I am frustrated on what to do about this unbearable situation.

Haele