six questions, and comments, about the torture of iraqi detainees

[enki23]

1. this one's almost too obvious. it's impossible to overstate the potential these images have to undermine any possibility of convincing the people of iraq, and the muslim world in general, that our nation could be considered an "ally" of any kind. democracy in iraq may have just been pushed back for decades, if it were ever truly any nearer.

2. this is a question i have not yet heard anyone ask: what the photos depict is *extreme* maltreatment. what threats, made or acted upon were sufficient to coerce these men into these situations?

3. by the army's own estimates, sixty percent of these detainees are innocent of any crime. most if not all of the detainees at this prison aren't soldiers or combatants of any kind. they are civilians being held without trial for purposes of interrogation, or are under suspicion of some kind.

4. if these acts can be cross-classified as "frat pranks," is this not more an indictment of the fraternity system than an excuse for what is clearly prohibited under the geneva conventions and roundly condemned by every human rights group and most national leaders *the world over?* isn't this argument an argument *against* fraternities, rather than *for* tolerance of these acts against incarcerated persons?

5. is it possible to *be* more disingenuous than to compare acts taking place between consenting adults to those practiced upon helpless prisoners? isn't this analogous to saying, of a rape, that it was "just rough sex?"

6. if civilian contractors were involved in this debacle, to whom should they be held responsible? if saddam is to be held responsible to the iraqi people for his crimes against the iraqi people, is that the sort of precedent which should be followed in lesser cases as well?

7. what, now, will be done to the american hostages?

[HFishbine]

1. The whole "frat prank"

excuse is not applicable. The morons who subject themselves to humiliation during hazing do so of their own free will. That's a huge difference. For those who fail to see the distinction, I propose rounding up some freepers, holding them against their will, stripping them and forcing them to simulate sex acts on each other -- no worse than a frat prank, right? They wouldn't object, right?

[BeFree]

2. * said this is not American

Anybody who tries to whitewash this torture is claiming otherwise. They are in fact claiming that torture is the American way. Why do they hate America so much? Claimimg that torture by Americans is ok is as anti-American as one can get.

[Jacobin]

3. Um, when you have a gun pointed at your head

you'll do just about anything, no?

[enki23]

4. that's the point

you aren't allowed to coerce prisoners with death threats, real or implied. this is especially heinous considering the fact that the majority of these men are, as i said above, considered innocent *by our own army estimates* of any crime.

[guitar man]

5. Civilian "contractors"

i.e. hired thugs,if involved in this kind of behavior should be handed over to the new Iraqi government that is supposed to assume power on 30June. If one commits crimes in a foreign land,they are generally subject to that country's laws and judicial system,right?

The troops are subject to the UCMJ and should be court-martialed for these actions.

[TrogL]

6. I'm not convinced people really understand the seriousness of this

1. this one's almost too obvious. it's impossible to overstate the potential these images have to undermine any possibility of convincing the people of iraq, and the muslim world in general, that our nation could be considered an "ally" of any kind. democracy in iraq may have just been pushed back for decades, if it were ever truly any nearer.

People in this culture are "prudish" for lack of a better term. Being forced to strip would be tatamount to rape (in their eyes) even without sexual contact. Having a woman present would make it that much worse. Any person known to be in this situation may very well be shunned by society. Intentionally or otherwise, the US armed forces has opened up a hornet's nest. Maybe they should have done that diversity training after all.

2. this is a question i have not yet heard anyone ask: what the photos depict is *extreme* maltreatment. what threats, made or acted upon were sufficient to coerce these men into these situations?

Guns or some sort of emotional blackmail (eg. rounding up their families).

3. (skipped)

4. if these acts can be cross-classified as "frat pranks," is this not more an indictment of the fraternity system than an excuse for what is clearly prohibited under the geneva conventions and roundly condemned by every human rights group and most national leaders *the world over?* isn't this argument an argument *against* fraternities, rather than *for* tolerance of these acts against incarcerated persons?

There's nothing wrong with fraternities, per se. Most Universities and colleges have stopped hazing due to injuries and lawsuits.

5. (skipped)

6. if civilian contractors were involved in this debacle, to whom should the be held responsible? if saddam is to be held responsible to the iraqi people, for his crimes against the iraqi people, is that the sort of precedent which should be followed in lesser cases as well?

If I hire an outside contractor in my workplace, I am responsible for his work and legally liable if something goes wrong. Whoever allowed these "contractors" ( pronounced "mercenaries") inside the compound is responsble.

[Hubert Flottz]

7. As a former American soldier I'm depressed beyond belief by

this depraved exhibition laid bare for all the world to see! I would NOT have done these things even under orders! It cheapens the image of America more than anything I've seen in fifty three years on the planet! If an American gets the death penalty for premeditated murder in the US, then the people who beat a helpless prisoner in Iraq to death should get the same damned thing!

It looks like to me that the terrorists HAVE won! Maybe that's what Mission Accomplished means! Keep in mind that your tax dollars are paying for this outrage thanks to Bush and Rumsfield!

[eridani]

9. A comment that might cheer you up

http://www.counterpunch.org/lindorff05012004.html


If anything, what sets America apart from some of its client states and from Saddam Hussein's regime is not torture itself, which the CIA has long endorsed and practiced and taught to client states' police, and which U.S. soldiers do at least as capably as the next centurion. It's that some American soldiers actually believe strongly enough in the notional values of the American Constitution they ostensibly are fighting to protect to actually report such evil, even at the risk of personal loss or punishment. What sets America apart is that its mainstream media, as compromised and timid as they have become, will still occasionally, as CBS's "60 Minutes" has done here, blow the whistle on such criminality and barbarism.

[eridani]

8. Prisoner prefers Saddam torture to US torture

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2004/05/0...

Dhia al-Shweiri spent several stints in Baghdad's notorious Abu Ghraib prison, twice under Saddam Hussein's rule and once under American. He prefers Saddam's torture to the humiliation of being stripped naked by his American guards, he said Sunday in an interview with The Associated Press.

Al-Shweiri said that while jailed by Saddam's regime, he was electrocuted, beaten and hung from the ceiling with his hands tied behind his back. "But that's better than the humiliation of being stripped naked," he said. "Shoot me here," he added, pointing between his eyes, "but don't do this to us."