Meet U.S. Army "pointy" finger girl.

[Cascadian]

We now know who the miss "cool chick/dominitrix" is. Here is her story.....


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3691753.stm




All I can say is I hope you enjoy your 15 minutes. Cause your life is screwed!


John

[DarkPhenyx]

1. Somebody please lock this.

It isn't going to be anything new and there are only about a hundred threads going on it already.

[Tinoire]

15. Whatever for? It seems you have a problem with this entire scandal

You are working to bring down the Bush administration aren't you? You certainly wouldn't want the scandal of the century to "radiate and fade away" would you?

My goodness, how these threads are keeping you busy! If you don't like them use the "hide a thread" feature. Some of us happen to be extemely interested in every single detail of the scandal that will bring Bush, his entire administration, and the entire neo-agenda down,down, down.

You do agree that that's what Martha would call a "good thing", don't you?

The only thing that's going to fade away and radiate is the nasty 'dark halo' in this bitter struggle out of this nightmare. ;)

[Must_B_Free]

30. Mods:

Please lock all of the threads I don't want to read and ban all of the people that I think aren't "good" democrats. Anyone who poses a challenging or unique thought must be the enemy. :)

[Tinoire]

51. Stop it lol :) I am in no mood to laugh

Can you believe this crap here. The Gestapo would have been proud.

Please lock up threads about the atrocities of Buchenwald; one thread is enough- it's so much easier to "monitor" that way.

[DarkPhenyx]

58. Must you insist on being...

...a complete ass? If you notice I pointed out that we already have multiple threads on this subject. way more than we usually have on a subject. I have seen dupe threads locked at a far lower number of repeats.

Gee! Asking that the rules be followed. Yeah, that's sure a Gestapo tactic.

[Cascadian]

62. Everybody is entitled to their opinion

Unfortunately, there are those who have a distorted view of freedom of speech. It's sad but true.


:eyes:

John

[DarkPhenyx]

69. Please point out how my view is distorted then.

If you are going to make the accusation please back it up with evidence. If you can't I'd appreciate your retracting the statement.

[Cascadian]

70. You requested to have this posting locked.

What more proof do you need? If you do not like what I post then DON'T READ IT.

It's as simple as that.


John

[DarkPhenyx]

72. Because there are already dozens of threads already started.

DU locks dupes all the time. Do the Admins and Mods of DU have a distorted view of Free Speech?

You'll note I didn't say lock all the threads on this topic. I haven't said we shouldn't discuss it at all.

John, John, John...eventually you are going to find that precious few things in life are "as simple as that". If you fond something you thin kis you need to take a closer look. You are most likely missing something.

[leanings]

52. "scandal of the century"?

:eyes:

DU is bizarro world.

[DarkPhenyx]

57. You don't have problems with this then?

Interesting. Then you are happy and pleased that it has come about? Curious. I'll tell you what, I would willingly let Bush get re-elected if we could make these allegations and pictures untrue. How's that for an answer? We should not be happy about this, no matter what. We should not be hoping it gets worse just to bring Bush down. Being happy about this, in any way, is as shameful as the acts conducted by these soldiers.

[Cascadian]

64. Bush re-elected?

uh.......excuse me but he was not elected to begin with.


John

[DarkPhenyx]

66. Actually he was.

But that is a different topic. Let's stay on thread shall we?

[Cascadian]

67. whatever.

:eyes:


John

[DarkPhenyx]

68. This would be a good example of...

...Democratic/Liberal group think though. I'll have to remember to use it.

[RetroLounge]

65. Then don't read it. You got a problem with truth?

RL

[Pobeka]

2. I don't blame her. A 21 year old is only going to follow orders.

The real culprits here are her superiors. Where was the supervision?
Where were the orders *from the top* re-enforcing the need to follow international law? And by *from the top*, I mean the oval office, which is the commander in chief. If chimpy had been serious, responsible, instead of playing war games like it was some video game, this stuff would have been minimized.

[corporatewhore]

4. hey she still has freewill i am 18 and do not and would not follow orders

that go against human nature

[Jacobin]

5. Gleefully "following those orders" it appears

[Tinoire]

32. Everyone following "orders" but nobody giving any. Sound familiar?

[Generator]

7. I agree I actually feel sorry for her

I don't feel sorry for Rumsfeld et all. They never have to be there and make decisions about what orders to follow.

They have educations, these people are manipulated, uneducated, and taught to hate. She does make me sick at the same time, but I just felt a pang for her.

That's the pang you need to feel for those that do bad things, that's the pang that keeps you from becoming something you don't want to be.

All of those in prison were not innocent, but they didn't deserve any of this treatment. I hope I'm making sense because I'm not defending what she did, just war is often where we bring out the worst in some.

That's why war should always be a last resort. It leads to evil.

[Dookus]

11. I don't feel the least bit sorry for her...

anybody KNOWS what she did was wrong.

To people who want to excuse this, just imagine the same pictures, only US captives being abused this way by Iraqi soldiers. There'd be a hue and cry the likes of which you'd never seen.

Fuck Lynndie England. I hope she goes to jail for a very long time, and even afterward, I hope her every waking moment is haunted by the damage she's done to the US and its soldiers.

[Tinoire]

23. I don't feel the least bit sorry for her. She was "shooting turkeys"

(with thanks to Corporatewhore)

Lynndie England seen as hero back in racist hometown

Good ol’ girl who enjoyed cruelty
By SHARON CHURCHER in Fort Ashby

May 7, 2004

<snip>

Lynndie England, 21, a rail worker’s daughter, comes from a trailer park in Fort Ashby, West Virginia, which locals proudly call “a backwoods world”.

She faces a court martial, but at home she is toasted as a hero.

At the dingy Corner Club Saloon they think she has done nothing wrong.


Lynndie England, 21, a rail worker’s daughter, comes from a trailer park in Fort Ashby, West Virginia, which locals proudly call “a backwoods world”.

She faces a court martial, but at home she is toasted as a hero.

At the dingy Corner Club Saloon they think she has done nothing wrong.

“A lot of people here think they ought to just blow up the whole of Iraq,” Colleen Kesner said.

“To the country boys here, if you’re a different nationality, a different race, you’re sub-human. That’s the way girls like Lynndie are raised.

“Tormenting Iraqis, in her mind, would be no different from shooting a turkey. Every season here you’re hunting something. Over there, they’re hunting Iraqis.”

<snip>

http://www.whiteprivilege.com/archives/2004/05/

source link
http://dailytelegraph.news.com.au/story.jsp?sectionid=1258&storyid=1302907


===



<snip>

'Big joke'

Her mother said she was shocked by the photographs, but described the alleged abuses as "stupid, kid things - pranks" (:puke:).

<snip>

The soldier's friends are apparently standing by her.

Destiny Gloin told ABC news: "She's never been in trouble. She's not the person that the photographs point her out to be.

"I love her, and I'm not ashamed of her."

<snip>

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3691753.stm

+++++++++++++++++++++++

I do however want EVERY single NCO, Officer and GS civilian who was complicit in this brought forward, exposed, and vilified even more than this 21 year old girl they threw to the wolves. If I have to choose between letting her walk and getting the people who conceived, ordered, encouraged this, I'll vote to let her walk because I want the responsible ones dragged out and vilified many times more than this young girl whose lack of education they totally exploited for evil. She's not the true culprit here.

[Dookus]

26. agreed

I want them ALL punished... but that doesn't in any way diminish HER culpability. They should ALL go away for a long time - they've done immeasurable harm to the US and will be DIRECTLY responsible for the treatment OUR captive soldiers receive in the future.

[Tinoire]

35. That's so sad Dookus...

As I look at these photos, I think of soldiers I know being horribly treated because of how these photos are revolting and offending people all over the world.

My ONLY comfort is that the Iraqis have tended to release their hostages and to treat them well. (Next week though, expect the script writers at the Pentagon to catch up with their propaganda and churn out fabricated stories because those boys are in full panic mode).
I am just not sure how much longer I can count on that "comfort". I just hope the people they're currently holding, or will hold in the future, will manage to make eye/heart contact with their captors.

[Dookus]

38. The good news

is that by all accounts, the Iraqis have treated our captive soldiers better than we've treated them. I hope they can find it in their hearts to continue to do so.

I'm mad about this for many reasons. First and foremost is just that it's so clearly wrong to treat other humans that way. But close behind is because it makes me so fucking angry to think of the damage this has done to my country and its soldiers. I KNOW that these people don't represent our armed forces, but that's the way it now appears. I've known too many people I love and respect who served to think that this is typical - it's not. But something went horribly wrong in this situation, and people AT EVERY LEVEL need to be punished.

Maybe I'm naive, but I DO believe that our only hope in this war, or ANY war, is to demonstrate a true moral superiority. This war was fucked from day one, but given that it happened, we HAVE to behave better than the lowest common denominator.

I've been following this issue over on FR, and it's interesting. A few people are vocally on the right side of this, and understand how damaging it is. But the rest think it's perfectly OK to treat people this way. But as I've said before, just imagine if this were US soldiers being treated this way by Iraqi captors - the outcry would be unbelievable.

[Pobeka]

43. Yes, we are at a cusp. The world is watching this for follow-through.

If Bush lets this go without repercussions to those responsible, we are royally screwed in international relations for many generations.

[Dookus]

46. Sadly

I don't know if this can be "fixed". I know that prosecuting these people is the LEAST we can do, but it won't undo the damage done.

It's the same as the war itself - it was such a godawful idea because it CANNOT be undone. Just pulling out tomorrow is NOT an option, and that's one of the reasons I opposed the war so strongly. This is the same situation - the damage is done, and we have a bare minimum that we MUST do, but I don't have faith that it will "fix" the problem.

We are well and truly fucked.

[Pobeka]

53. It's not impossible, but the road is long and hard.

ALL those responsible for this mess have to be punished, starting
immediately (today) with the chain of command down to this soldier, with the most severe penalties issued at the top of the command structure.

Then, we have to get Bush and this cabal removed from office. Impeachment would literally be the best, because that would bring some legitamecy (sp?) back to the U.S. congress in the eyes of the world. That not being very likely, placing Kerry in office will tell the world that we aren't all a bunch of religiously insane racists and fascists looking to end the world.

Even the best outcome will mean a lot of hard work for many decades to get back to where we were at the end of 2000.

It sucks. Bush has really screwed us quite well.

[Tinoire]

48. My heart is breaking with yours

We lost our moral superiority the moment we eyed the oil in the Middle East- decades ago.

I've been following this at FR also. The real conservatives are as outrages as we are.

I would like for us to find a way to "transcend the neo" and to work with certain of those people. Our real battle now, IMO, is neo/PNAC vs basic human rights such as being judged by WHO you are and not WHAT you are. I have found, after 3 years at DU, that I have more in common with sincere (albeit misguided) Republicans than I ever thought I would.

Your entire post sums up my feelings so perfectly.

just imagine if this were US soldiers being treated this way by Iraqi captors - the outcry would be unbelievable.

We are living in a scary country right now!

[BiggJawn]

34. "if you’re a different nationality..."

"Got Schoolin, drive one a' them furrin' cars, got soft hands, a sell-phone, yer sub-human. Heps us t' feel better about oursells..."

Hope I NEVER have car trouble in that part of the country!

"Boy, you goy purdy lips!"

[Pobeka]

40. Thank you for that. You said it well.

"I do however want EVERY single NCO, Officer and GS civilian who was complicit in this brought forward, exposed, and vilified even more than this 21 year old girl they threw to the wolves. If I have to choose between letting her walk and getting the people who conceived, ordered, encouraged this, I'll vote to let her walk because I want the responsible ones dragged out and vilified many times more than this young girl whose lack of education they totally exploited for evil. She's not the true culprit here."

If we only punish her, then this is going to happen again, and again. It was a catastrophic failure of the chain of command. She would not have done this so willingly if the superiors had been doing their jobs, and I include Bush in that chain of command, he's treated this whole thing like a holy war, and this is one result. It makes me sick. We desparately need some adults running the country again.

[DarkPhenyx]

8. Bullshit!

You can vote drink and anything else you bloody well want to at 21. She is fully responsible for her actions.

[Tinoire]

36. Yeah... Let's just hang the Bitch and bury the rest of the story

under the floorboards. :eyes:

[DarkPhenyx]

59. How in the fuck

do you get "bury the story" from my post? Delusional thinking might lead to that conclusion, but I'm sure that isn't the case here.

[Pobeka]

14. To all those who disagree.

I don't think we can know exactly what was going through her mind. But I base my logic on the fact that she's in Iraq, where soldiers are not fighting a war, they are being force to act like police, and have pretty much zero training at that. This *is* Viet Nam all over again.

I'm not defending her actions, but I'm recognizing that the psychological pressure, peer pressure, military pressure is something unimaginable for most of us. And I believe it is the seasoned professionals up and down the ranks who must be cognizant of that situation that the raw recruits are in, and provide for them on the ground supervision and role-modeling. Remember, those troops are *trained* to obey, not think on their own. Free will is one thing, disobeying real or perceived orders at the risk of time in the brig, or worse the death penalty during wartime activities is quite another.

[RapidCreek]

31. How nice

with five or ten thousand folks like her, just following orders, think how many Jews, Poles and Czeks could be murdered!!! Oh wait five or ten thousand folks like her, just following orders, already murdered a couple millions Jews Poles and Czeks. Maybe we could use them to murder a few million Muslims....he yea that's the ticket!

RC

[ShaneGR]

3. Enough already, would you prefer we execute her?

Seriously.

[kalian]

19. Hmmm...now there's a thought.

[KG]

6. why do morons take picture of themselves doing stupid stuff?

hard to plumb the depths of the depravity and stupidity exhibited by her and her fellow goons.

[The Blue Knight]

9. SYMPATHY? For THESE assholes?

If it was *so* horrible, why would they take pictures? If it was *so* horrible, WHY THE FUCK IS SHE WEARING THAT LITTLE SHIT GRIN OF HERS?

I'm sorry, but this just puts a hot rod up my ass, and I can't find the words to discribe my rage and my disgust, so I'm going to quit trying.

[KG]

12. no sympathy from me

just incredulous that these idiots thought it was a good idea to take pictures if their sick antics...

[Tinoire]

39. My big problem with that is that they were made to believe it was "normal"

by whom?

I can't imagine them posing otherwise.

Someone told them this was normal, glorious even.

SSG's and privates do not make these kind of decisions in the military. WHO "scripted" this?

Burn them ALL.

[DarkPhenyx]

10. Because they are morons?

That would be my guess.

[TheDebbieDee]

13. Cause they're morons!.............eom

[TexasMexican]

16. Repost x11evently billion

I wish everyone would get access to the search that way people could search to make sure they arent posting something old.

[brokensymmetry]

17. I have a question.

It's generally agreed that almost everyone would perceive her actions - and those of the others - as "doing the wrong thing."

OK, fine. But on the other hand, we have lots and lots of pictures. Their behavior and facial expressions are NOT appropriate for someone photographed "doing the wrong thing."

So...did they think they were "doing the RIGHT thing"? If so, why? To use a cliche', what were they thinking?

There's just something about this whole thing that doesn't add up. And the delays before anything was done, that's odd too.

Questions...and I'm not seeing the answers.

[kalian]

20. What's your angle?

Are you saying that they were "set up"? :shrug:

[brokensymmetry]

22. Set up?

That seems a bit much, I suppose. Although between the contractors and the CIA it is possible.

Really, I don't have an angle. It just looks really odd that quite a few seemed to think it was OK, and no one (seemingly) said, "Whoa, this is over the line."

When several people act in really unusual ways, I can't help wondering if there is some underlying truth I'm not aware of. :shrug:

[kalian]

33. When you demonize people....

you can do just about anything. Ask the Jews..the gypsies...the
Vietnamese...the Poles...the Hutus...need I go on?
When the propaganda reaches a level that you look down upon another
person, you'll end up doing the most horrible things. Do you think
that all the Germans were in favor of brutalizing innocents?
Gunning them down?

The thing is that the people that find themselves in positions of
power NEVER believe that they will be 1) caught or 2) ever be
defeated.
Imagine if this would have happened with the Nazis during the
pre-WWII phase. Imagine if the ENTIRE world would have seen what
the Nazis did to the Jews during Kristallnacht. Imagine if
the Bolsheviks would have been shown as they truly were: murdering
thugs that lusted for power.

We live in some very interesting times given that INFORMATION is
widely available and that it travels in a blink of an eye.

Unfortunately...Americans thinks that 1) they are right, 2) they
are "liberating" Iraqis and 3) they will never be defeated.
See a pattern here...?

[Pobeka]

54. Remember too the definition of a war crime...

Anything the losers did which the winners didn't do.

[July]

60. Apparently, there were a few who objected.

And somebody reported these acts and photos to higher-ups.

As I remember, one Navy dog handler refused to do something he was told to do that he felt was wrong.

[Pobeka]

21. People often smile when they are extremely nervous.

[brokensymmetry]

25. Well, that's true.

But if I were extremely nervous, would I pose for pictures?

Do you see how the two possibilities are in conflict? That's what bothers me.

It's possible that there are a group of people that don't realize they should be nervous. Maybe that should make the rest of us really nervous!

[Pobeka]

28. If her superior officer told/asked her to pose, she probably would.

There are official orders, and there are requests. But in stressful situations I'll be the line can be sufficiently blurred to make an inferior soldier do just about anything.

Even if it was a peer that asked her, she might do it. I don't know, I wasn't there, but I can easily see the situation is loaded with emotion and pressure from many sources.

[Oddman]

18. As American as

date pie.


Ann Coulter – Mercenary!

[natrat]

24. oh yea set up

up to start world war 3 so freak evangelicals can be saved or whatever their bullsh@# is

[StandUpGuy]

44. Ummm...Sounds as credible as any of the other stories

After watching 'The Jesus Factor' on Frontline last week and listening to George Monbiot on Democracy Now i think a compelling argument can be made for exactly that.

Maybe they were told that the pictures were being used for interrogation purposes (intimidation), and told they would be used to get information that saves lives.

Or maybe we all know deep down that our western lifestyles rely on this type of treatment for those that dare object.

[jeanmarc]

27. What a horrible, horrible tragedy...

I really hate our President. I hate him. George W. Bush is an evil, evil man. This whole thing is evil.

This dumbass girl likely wouldn't do something like this in some sort of normal life. War brings out the worst in us. I'm not apologizing for her, but what I am saying is this is extremely horrible.

I never wanted this goddamned war, and that shithead that heads the current occupation of our white house needs to pay for this.

I'd rather have the top heads roll for this for not having clear rules for detainment rather than these idiots. At the very least, give them a fair trial. Fuck! I hate being an American right now. And I hate our President. Why do I hate him? Is it because of his policies? Yes. Is it because he is destroying our nation? of course. Do you hate him personally? Yep. He's a complete asshole that has no sense of what was once known as a miracle, the creation of the American government. He has no decency. He pretends to think of Jesus as his strongest influence and the Jesus I know never behaved like this alcoholic. He is a goddamned disgrace to the human race. He kills tens of thousands and makes it a campaign poster. I hate George W. Bush. I can't remember any President who has betrayed my trust so thoroughly. I mourn for those held by the mercenaries we hired that get around from South American torture chambers to Iraqi torture chambers. I mourn for the ideals I learned in my high school civics class. George W. Bush is a natural disaster. Who will pay for the cleanup for his ungodly clusterfuck?

[wellstone_democrat]

37. Well, you certainly said everything that I think

I'm beyond angry, beyond depressed and beyond shame at this disaster and that alcoholic maniac that promoted the culture that resembles nothing more than a sewer.

Who will "pay'? Why, we will of course.

[jeanmarc]

45. I have NEVER felt like this about our country

We really are the Great Satan. The fucking bastards have made it happen. We've always dabbled in right wing regimes and torture, but that was all behind the curtains. here, the curtains are rolled back and America gets to see what sort of fun fuckshow the right wing puts on. My American spirit is almost dead. Now I feel hatred. I hate this President.

The only good news I can share is that I have a right wing friend who almost always spins the Rush line or turns a blind eye towards what we care about and the guy was completely out of excuses or spin. The price is too great, but I think we've won. Like another poster said, this involves sex, not only sex, but prison sex. Those right wing publishers and producers of news can't get enough of this degeneracy.

They are eating themselves. They'll blame us for not providing a drink to help wash the meal down, but they are eating themselves. That's my only solace.

This isn't the way I wanted it, but I'll take it. Any change that happens as soon as possible can help.

[onecitizen]

29. OMG, she's from WV!!

We had Jessica Lynch and to be "fair and balanced" we thru this girl in. I guess this speaks to the lack of opportunity here in my state. I guess I could be one of them had things not broken better for me.

[Cascadian]

71. They are already calling her the "anti-Jessica Lynch"

Who knew you would have two young women from the same state in the same war but going in opposite directions? You have Jessica Lynch who appears as a sweet, wholesome, unprejudiced, All-American girl. Then on the other side of the coin you have Lynndie England, who is portrayed across as a bigotted, white-trash, bee-atch.

Who knew?



John

[Generic Other]

41. Her picture reminded me of another

Bonnie Parker

[jeanmarc]

49. Her picture reminds me....

Of the shame of all of this. Everyone needs to make choices at all points of their lives, but something about this really disturbs me. What kind of person was she before and how did she change?

I mean, did she show these sort of tendencies before? Is it this easy to dehumanize any person?

Keep Rumsfeld Bush. keep him. Expect a strong military backlash vote, expect that anyway. Fire Rumsfeld, Bush. Enjoy the confirmation hearings and enjoy what will be the latest scandal with his temporary replacement.

This administration will be infamous in 6 years. I'm not sure what these idiot reporters are drinking, but I have to believe the big snooze will end. God Bless America...because America needs as many blessings as possible since Bush and his cohorts have damned it with great shame.

[bigbillhaywood]

56. Fuck that, Bonnie Parker was cool! n/t

[John_H]

42. I suggest reading that argument with "Dueling Banjos" playing full blast.

Puts the whole thing in perspective.

[Bake]

55. Oh great -- now we have to pick on banjo players!

Hey, SOME of us banjo players are well-educated liberals who appreciate God's perfect musical instrument!

Bake
B.A., M.Div., M.B.A., J.D., BANJO PLAYER!!!!

[riverwalker]

47. Life in prison

would be too good for her. I am sick of these lame excuses. What kind of "training" do you need to become a human being? "Stress"? Oh please, give me a break. There are NGO workers all over the world under more stress than these guards. Yet they treat people with compassion. I am sick of hearing about the Stanford experiment where we "are all capable of becoming torturers". Bullshit. There are many who would rather take a bullet in the head than to sell their soul and humanity. Many have, and many will.

[bhunt70]

50. those people are rare.

[RebelOne]

61. You know what annoys me, actually it pisses me off.

It is continually emphasized that she lived in a trailer. Well, it's not a trailer, it's a mobile home. I live in a MOBILE HOME in a MOBILE HOME PARK. People seem to think that those who live in mobile homes are all ignorant, beer-guzzling, foul-mouthed rednecks. It's seems that the press and the public always seem to degrade those who live in mobile homes.

[Bridget Burke]

63. The people who gave the orders don't live in mobile homes.

And the person who started the whole thing lives in the White House.

She needs to pay for what he did, but the others--whose pictures we didn't see--should not escape judgment. Although I'm sure they have more elegant domiciles.