For the believers

[Terwilliger]

In Islam, is the wearing of a facial covering by women a proper expression of servility to God?

Obviously those who believe think that there's a certain reality to the instructions they've received through parents, preachers, the Bible, etc. If the Koran spells out that belief in that God means that women should cover their face, why should that be something any tolerant religious person should wish to challenge? If you don't believe that these coverings are appropriate, why does the Western world expect a properly adorned woman to wear makeup, jewelry, and dresses?

(in a reply, maybe you could explain your reasoning)

[ursacorwin]

1. as i understand it

covering the faces of women is found nowhere in the Koran, but instead in the "teachings" of religious leaders and various islamic groups with specific cultural practices relating to women's dress. there are (supposedly) just as many teachings that say women *don't* have to be covered as those that say they do, but only the latter get modern media play.

if memory serves, the Koran demands that men and women, but women in particular, are to dress with "modesty" (i think that is the correct english translation of the arabic word) and just what constitutes modesty is up to the (men) in charge of that area, islamic community, etc.

but for the record: if there is a god(dess) i for one will never believe that s/he would want her/his creations to cover up her/his good creations.

there is nothing shameful about the natural human body. period.

[Clete]

5. I heard that the covering of the female face was a tradition among

the turkish tribes that swept down into Asia and the Middle East during the Middle Ages. Islam adopted it from them. My information could be outdated however, as I read about it some time ago. Incidentally, among Arab nomadic tribes the covering of the face to protect it from the elements is done by both sexes. However, the covering of the hair with a veil seems to go back into prehistory in all Mediterranean cultures. I mean even in the last century, my mother and I had to wear a mantilla to mass in Chile.

I have never read the Koran, but women friends of mine who are Muslim do say there is no reference to it in there. Also, I have yet to find it in the Bible as a definite religious rule for Christian or Jewish women. This makes one wonder why nuns covered their heads. other than their faces.

As far as make-up for women. No one makes you wear it if you don't want to.

[Terwilliger]

10. you havent been to church

or seen the ENTIRE makeup/modelling industry that regularly influences MILLIONS of women (more than millions)

How's that?

[Clete]

22. What does going to church have to do with make-up?

I don't understand what you are saying. The last religious building I was in was a Jewish temple for a wedding. Many women were wearing make-up and many weren't. No one was forcing anyone to. The only veil was worn by the bride and other than that only the men had their heads covered.

[1monster]

51. I can't remember which book,chapter, or verse,

but Paul directed that women should cover their heads in church... I've always considered Paul to have been a bit of a misogynist. One does not get the feeling of someone who valued women when reading his writings.

[ulysses]

2. not familiar enough with Islam to answer the poll

but does the fact that some Muslim communities require the wearing of a burqua invalidate the entire experience of Islam?

[Terwilliger]

4. What does "the entire experience of Islam" mean?

Is that like, the entire Nazi party experience?


are you going to answer my question about makeup and dresses?

[FoxNewsIsTheDevil]

6. You're comparing Islam to Naziism?

I don't quite follow you. I do know you are one bitter athiest, though.

[Terwilliger]

8. Is wearing a veil acceptable to you?

can you stay on point long enough?

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Terwilliger]

13. AH HAH! Now I'm a vegetarian?!?!

DOES ANYBODY NOT SEE THE INTOLERANCE?!?!

My point has not been shot down, and you havent explained why women wear makeup.

[FoxNewsIsTheDevil]

17. lol probably

Anyway athiest, I dont see the relevance in this question. What does this have to do with anything? Some Muslim countries do it, some don't. It isn't based on the Koran. Yes, you're right. It's the Bible's fault that women wear makeup, even though it's been documented that ancient friggin Egyptian men and women did it.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

21. Women and makeup

Women started wearing makeup in modern times around the time of moving pictures, according to a book I have about the extraordinary origins of everyday objects. Seems they wanted to copy the actors. The modern makeup industry grew from there. Personally, I don't wear makeup.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ulysses]

24. "athiest boy"? Yes, that helps the cause of discussion.

:eyes:

[FoxNewsIsTheDevil]

26. I know, couldnt resist

:)

[Terwilliger]

30. god-pods don't like their bullshit questioned

why is it intolerance to suggest that you are foolish to govern your life on a belief? If I could mandate what I could do in this country solely on the basis of my beliefs, I'd be called authoritarian. If you are a member of the mass deception club, somehow you're just a poor, innocent believer.

OH YEAH! Like those women in Islam who think it's their duty to wear a veil, or the other god-pods in middle America who believe its their duty to God to vote against liberals and for George W. Bush!

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

44. I think it is free speech

and not intolerance. But I would suggest that all actions are based on some sort of belief system, religious or otherwise. Look at Marx, Lenin, and many members of the Communist party. They took an idea and created a whole society out of it-one that was not based on religion at all. But it was based on the beliefs of the Communist Manifesto.

[Terwilliger]

49. a society of equality

not a society on inequality and subjugation of those less equal

that's the point of it

Now Stalin and those types perverted it into something that they could run efficiently, but their idea of social equality was how equal all the rest were while he and his friends took all the power privelege. There may be types like that in Christianity and Islam, but with a code of ethics (I assume that Christians and Muslims have one) that demands peace, love, and the sameness of all people under god, why is it that these religious inequities are allowed to go on? Why don't the true believers eliminate those who only feign their belief?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

57. That's easy

We have God to do that. And I'm not trying to be smug or disrespectful of you or your atheism. Believers are to worry about their own souls and not about the spiritual shortcomings of others. This makes it hard for believers to go after people who misuse the spirit of religion.

But I think you have made a point about Stalin et al. There's something in human nature that makes people take the most idealistic ideas and pervert them.

[Terwilliger]

27. come on...thats simplistic at best

woman have always had "makeup", even if it wasn't made by Revlon.

[Trajan]

55. Not true ....

There is documentary evidence of make up usage in the Sumerian and Egyptian civilizations ....

[Terran]

66. I believe that statement is incorrect.

"Women started wearing makeup in modern times around the time of moving pictures..."

Both women and men have been applying substances to their faces and bodies for thousands of years for the purpose of vanity and improving appearance. Kohl, the precursor of modern eye-liner, has been used in the Middle East for millenia. The main difference now is that make-up is no longer the province of the wealthy (*that* probably was one result of the film industry) and somewhere along the line, in the West, men stopped wearing make-up, but that only occured about two centuries ago. Upper class men in Western Europe were still using make up in the late 18th century.

[Cheswick2.0]

29. Foxnews has to wear a veil?

?

[FoxNewsIsTheDevil]

67. I know lol. I'm like whaa?

I didn't really understand his/her question.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

11. I think it means a way of living

and a way of looking at the world. If, as another poster has said, you are an atheist, I am sure you have your own way of looking at the world. If it makes you feel good about yourself and makes you a better person, then go for it! Personally, Islam, and specifically Sufism, does that for me.

[Terwilliger]

14. where is your explanation about the veil?

is it acceptable to you?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

28. The veil

Somehow or other my post on this got lost, so I'll try and repost. I think that veil wearing is up to the individual. I have worn headscarves to Sufi gatherings, and I've gone bare-headed. I was told by a sheik it wasn't necessary, and I told him I wanted to, and he said fine. That's my personal experience.

I think that wearing a veil by other women is up to them, though I am sure that if they live in a country where it is expected, it would be harder for them to go bare-headed if they wanted to. But it's really not my business to tell another woman how to dress-or whether or not to use makeup. It's up to the individual.

[Terwilliger]

39. or the religion

You seem to dance around the issue that these things are expected to be done in some places. And religion dictates these activities in others.

I am sure that if they live in a country where it is expected,

And what countries is it expected in? and why?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

58. Because of history

Read some of the other threads about the coming of the veil for women. They have the historical information down better than I do.

[ulysses]

15. Honestly? I don't know.

I'm not Muslim, as I suspect you know, Robbie. I'm not much of a believer of any kind, for that matter.

That said, I've known Muslims who weren't of the "women must wear veils" stripe, much as I've known a lot of Christians who weren't of the "must protest abortion clinics" or "there must be mandatory prayer in schools" stripes. I grew up in the Christian tradition, and I know that there's more to that tradition/experience/whatever than the dogma some folks attach to it. I have no reason to believe that Islam is any different.

[Terwilliger]

25. is this the same?

That said, I've known Muslims who weren't of the "women must wear veils" stripe, much as I've known a lot of Christians who weren't of the "must protest abortion clinics" or "there must be mandatory prayer in schools" stripes.

protesting abortion and mandatory prayer are relatively extreme compared to veils, which is entirely common. I'm not saying veils is extremist religious control...or is it? What has created a system where entire peoples are made into second-class citizens?

What about the makeup? Is it proper for Christians to demand that their women look a certain way? Why has a culture grown up around the church involving the adornment of women? Do you see how generations of men are taught they they are superior because of all this? Because of all this belief?

[Cheswick2.0]

31. christian women must wear make-up?

where on earth do you get these ideas?

[ulysses]

32. I have to disagree here

protesting abortion and mandatory prayer are relatively extreme compared to veils

...

What has created a system where entire peoples are made into second-class citizens?

Religions surely have played a major role, but take away all religions and you'll still have social hierarchies.

Is it proper for Christians to demand that their women look a certain way? Why has a culture grown up around the church involving the adornment of women?

No and I can't say, in that order. I will say, though, that in my experience most Christians *don't* demand that "their" women look a certain way. (on edit: or, if they do, it's not regularly out of their religious beliefs that they do so...)

Do you see how generations of men are taught they they are superior because of all this? Because of all this belief?

I do, yes, but I think you're making a mistake in equating certain fundamentalist sects with all Christians.

[Terwilliger]

45. sects?

so their belief led them to an extremist intolerance? their belief in a loving god?

See I just dont get why these folks shouldn't be considered mentally deranged. Why is it so impolitic to think that the believers have it entirely wrong?

Az told me atheists have to be polite and charming and diplomatic talking to the believers. Only analogy I could come up with was Democrats trying to be nice and pandering and diplomatic with Republicans.

But, of course, I'm a Green supporting atheist who doesn't like the flag and thinks war is an excuse for imperialist expansion of the US. I'm doing SO well amongst my peers.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

48. No, their belief

in their own importance. It is funny to look at people's concepts of God, and how far removed they often are from what their holy books say.

I'm a person who voted Green last time, feels the flag has been abused as a symbol, and agree with you on the war. I also believe you have the right to voice your opinions in the manner you wish to do it.

[ulysses]

65. yes, sects.

so their belief led them to an extremist intolerance? their belief in a loving god?

It happens, yes. Belief in a loving God also, in part, produces people like LydiaLeftcoast and DrGonzoLives, both of whom share many, if not most, of your political views and mine.

Why is it so impolitic to think that the believers have it entirely wrong?

It's not, as far as I can see. Being impolitic doesn't even enter into it for me. My point is that I think you're making a factual error in equating any belief in God, any adherence to a religion, with social domination. There are those whose religious beliefs lead them to social domination, there are those whose religious beliefs lead them to social equality.

Az told me atheists have to be polite and charming and diplomatic talking to the believers. Only analogy I could come up with was Democrats trying to be nice and pandering and diplomatic with Republicans.

Az is wrong. Atheists don't have to be any certain way at all in dealing with the faithful, any more than the faithful have to be any certain way in dealing with atheists. I don't even understand why he'd say that - it's a free country.

Well, not really, but you know what I mean...;-)

But, of course, I'm a Green supporting atheist who doesn't like the flag and thinks war is an excuse for imperialist expansion of the US. I'm doing SO well amongst my peers.

Robbie, my man, I am still in complete agreement with you (with the exception of not liking the flag - it's just a symbol). Like I told you a while back, I view a disagreement between us as a disagreement amongst family.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

34. Women and Islam

until about a hundred years ago, the rights given to women in the Qur'an were far greater than Western women had. Islamic women were given the right to own property, to have custody of their children (and to have child support in case of divorce), and the right to testify in court (though I will concede that the Qur'an says that it takes the testimony of two women to equal the testimony of one man). Culturally, the rights of women in Islamic countries is spotty. But remember, before the time of the beloved Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), girl babies were regularly exposed to the desert to die, women had their doweries stolen and were left in destitution by unscrupulous husbands, and basically were considered the property of men.

As in Christianity, Islam has its fundamentalist sects. The one that is prominant in Saudi Arabia (a country not known for equal rights for women)is Wahhabism, and it is very very narrow in it's interpretation of the Qur'an.

As for makeup on women: I grew up in the Methodist Church, and I don't remember demands that women look a certain way. Makeup back then was even frowned upon, as were smoking and card playing.

Men being taught they are superior to women because of culturation as much as from church or mosque, imho.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. I'll explain my NO vote

First of all, the Qur'an simply says that both men and women should dress modestly. Women should not stomp their feet and jangle their ankle bracelets to attract attention. (Sura 24:30-31) I just re-read the passage (my translation is The Meaning of the Holy Qur'an translated by Abudullah Yusuf Ali), and it only says to draw a veil over one's bosom, not one's head.

A friend of mine who is a better Muslim than me says that the veil reference comes from one of the Hadiths (sayings of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him). There is another Hadith where Mohammed says that one should dress in a manner consistant with the country where they lived. The point was not to draw attention to onesself. It was not meant to demean women. Most Muslim women I know in this country do not regularly wear a veil.

[Terwilliger]

7. regularly?

funny, I didn't ask you the basis of the belief...is it acceptable? Why or why not? Why does most of Islam employ this practice?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

19. I'm not sure I understand your question.

My response citing the Qur'an was in response to the original post. As for wearing a veil being acceptable, well, I've worn head scarves and not worn headscarves, and it has always been considered an individual choice.

As for why most of Islam employs this practice (I assume of wearing veils), I believe it is more a matter of cultural tradition than religion. In India,for example, you'll see both Hindu and Muslim women wearing headscarves. In the North African desert, you'll find both men and women covering their faces.

[Terwilliger]

33. in a desert, sure

I'm talking about women only...and you're playing dumb

What leads "fundamentalist" believers to cover the women? What keeps them in power? Who gave them all that authority?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

38. Authority is given

when people give people the authority. As long as people believe that someone is an authority, they will believe what they say. As long as people believe things are the way they're "supposed" to be, there will be no change.

[trof]

12. Who the ferk knows?

I voted "yes" because I think that's what they think, but I really don't know.
All these habiliment rules kind of bug me anyway.
If you're a good jew you gotta wear a little beanie?
Any jews on board please explain.
And is it Jew, or jew? I've never known. And, no, I am NOT anti-semitic.
And there's THAT thing...anti-semitic.
The Jews, or jews, are not the only semites, right?
(spellcheck just tells me that "Jews" is capitalized, as is "Semitic". OK, I learn something almost every day.)

Well, here:
Semites:
A member of a group of Semitic-speaking peoples of the Near East and northern Africa, including the Arabs, Arameans, Babylonians, Carthaginians, Ethiopians, Hebrews, and Phoenicians.
A Jew.
Bible: A descendant of Shem.

So, wouldn't a more accurate description be "anti-Jewish"?
And the Babylonians are now Iraqis, right?
I digress.

Why must women's heads be covered in the Catholic church?
Actually, what's with all the headgear in the Catholic clergy anyway?

What's with the Morman underwear?
Apparently Mormon's have "garments" that they think prevent bad things from happening to them. Basically they're long underwear with symbols sewn into them over the breasts.

There's more, but do folks really believe that what they wear on their bodies affects their relationship with their god?
:eyes:

[Terwilliger]

16. Do you see why

I have problems with a "belief" that regularly imposes sanctions on entire groups of people?

[Cheswick2.0]

37. No I don't see why it is any of your business

I have a good friend who is a member of American Islam. She chooses to cover her hair and to decline touching men who she is not related to. She does wear make up sometimes.

What I see when I am with her is that men treat her with more respect than other women in the room. They don't get the option of acting like she is someone to make crass sexual comments about and act stupid around, which makes her manner of dress downright attractive.

She is a beautiful, strong, independent black woman who is never affraid to demand respect. I don't have any idea (except for your need to find something wrong with relgion in general) why it concerns you at all.

[Terwilliger]

46. and you have no problems with women wearing veils

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

60. and no problem with women NOT wearing veils

it's an individual choice.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

42. I believe I do

As I understand it, you wish all groups of people to be able to live free and equally. That is a noble wish.

[trof]

43. absotively,

posilutely.
I'm gonna get my ass whupped (or worse) for this, but these "religious costume" requirements sound like where the KKK got their ideas about takin' momma's bedsheets for a scarey uniform.
<SHIELDS UP!>
;-)

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

47. You may be right

religion has been used as an excuse for the worst excesses in human history. That's why it is important for each person to read holy books when they are cited by someone and for each person to make up their own mind as to what the passage means. If someone decides to not believe, that is their right. If someone decides to believe, that is their right. In my opinion, they should decide for themselves, and not let anyone make that decision for them. (Yes, I am skeptical of what religious leaders say)

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

41. Yes

The Sieks wear a ceremonial daggar and don't cut their hair, but rather tie it up in a turban. The Farsis wear a string with 64 knots in it on their bodies-the knots being a rememberance of God. Certain sects of Judaism, the Hasidics, wear earlocks (not earrings, but they grow the hair long around their ears), while their women cut their hair very short and wear wigs. All these things are there for the people to remember God. I know it sounds odd, maybe even silly, but it works for them.

And I believe anti-Semetism refers to dissing Arabs as well as Jews, who, after all, are cousins.

[starroute]

18. The veil was introduced in the Middle East c. 1000 BC

It was probably part of a general cultural shift that took place during that rather obscure period of history. Societies were becoming more patriarchal and the worship of the Great Goddess was giving way to that of warrior-gods like Zeus and Yahweh. Women were increasingly secluded, controlled, and subordinated to the requirements of father-to-son inheritance.

When the Arabs overran the Persian Empire, they adopted the veil along with many other "civilized" customs. But it was nothing they invented and formed no part of original Islam.

[Terwilliger]

35. ok

why do fundamentalists demand that women wear it? and/or cover-up?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

50. One word:

control. Like certain Presidents who want everyone to agree with them, certain "religious" leaders demand obedience.

[buddhamama]

56. yep.

women in the middle east have fought this control.

[Terwilliger]

59. yes, and what gives them their power to control?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

62. The belief system inculturated into the people

When people are taught that one way is the only way or the best way to do things, a lot of them go along. The ones that don't are the ones who get some education or learn about other ways from other sources.

[Skip Intro]

20. If Islamic women FREELY choose to observe such beliefs

and dress accordingly, I don't see how it is really anyone else's place to approve or disapprove.

Well meaning Westerner's, or "progressive" Islamists should certainly be free to expose willing adherents to alternatives, but the question is about dress, and if the person dressing in such a way is doing so of her own free will, so be it.

East or West, it should be a woman's choice to cover or not cover her face with cloth or veils or makeup.

[Terwilliger]

36. it should be, but do you really think the influence of religion....

DOESNT have a say in how these women choose to look?

And do you truly believe that all of that is voluntary?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

52. Again, I'd say

it is culture, or even sub-culture, and that religion can play a part. Around here in Arkansas, we have a colony of Mennonites. The women wear a "prayer cap" or white scarf, and their one-piece long dresses are plain and simple. The men wear beards after they have married, but refuse to wear belts and short sleeved shirts. Mennonites, unlike Old Order Amish, drive cars and trucks and run businesses (including a wonderful Bent and Dent grocery where folks can get food for a reasonable price), so they are in contact with other folks all the time. I think the close knit nature of their faith makes their subculture seem right to them.

[sujan]

40. It is meant to be a 'sun screen'

Not mandated by the religious text if I recall it correctly.

[rogerashton]

53. "Servility to God?" Come now!

Much of what we ascribe to Islam is eastern-Mediterranean tradition, irrelevant to Muhammad's revelation. This applies especially to the suppression of women.

Islam does seem to value modesty more than some other religions, e.g. Hinduism and Greek paganism.

Most traditions (religious or not) include some standards of dress. How many of us here would be comfortable as nudists? I wouldn't -- though I don't think it would bother me a lot if I were among peope who were nudist by conviction. In truth, immodesty is as much in the eye of the beholder as that of the beheld.

My PA Dutch ancestors had a very negative view of vanity, and felt that dress ought to show one's rejection of it -- should be plain, that is. They felt a man should be dressed from the feet to the chin, and a woman likewise. They also felt that mustaches on men were vain, and should not be worn.

The classical Geeks, by contrast, considered body shame as evidence of vanity, ans showed their rejection of the irrelevance of clothing by competing nude in the agon.

I am not prepared to say that any of these folks are wrong, although my own feelings incline a little toward the Greek. Not in any sexual sense, understand.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

63. Actually,

there's a metaphysical reason for wearing a hat or headscarf during religious ceremonies. It's hard to explain but it helps one with the experience.

[CatWoman]

54. I grew up in the church

and back then wearing makeup to church was a complete no-no. It was taught that women just did not wear makeup. Only sluts wore it.

Women couldn't even wear pants to church.

It's amazing how things have changed -- now you can't distinguish church goers from club hoppers.

[Kamika]

61. this is the deal

To wear all those clothes were not based on religion, muhammed came up with it, it was a mean to tell ppl this woman is taken and not allowed to rape her.

Now its become a tradition in islam


Thank you

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

64. I respectfully disagree

The dress of women in that area of the world didn't really change after the revelation of the Qur'an. The sura Nur just reminds people to dress modestly.