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MadProphetMargin Donating Member (756 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 05:11 AM
Original message
I was wrong. Horribly, horribly wrong.
A month or so ago, I spent a great deal of time defending the army, when certain posters accused them of being morally responsible for the war.

"Don't blame the soldiers", I said, "Blame the Bush administration."

Now, over the last several days, my faith in the service that I loved so much has been shattered by the hideous revelations coming out of the Bagdhad prison.

What the hell is going on? Is ANYONE actually IN CHARGE over there?

What were these tards THINKING? Where they thinking at all? How many Americans will die, because these f*ckwits decided to build an ass-pyramid?

Then it gets worse. By Rumsfeld's own admission (today), there is a videotape showing Iraqi guards raping young boys, detained for reasons unstated. The film was made by an American...who did nothing to stop the horrible act going on in from of him.

At least one Iraqi was beaten to death with a steel cable, while under "interrogation".

An elderly lady was forced to act like a donkey, while an American soldier rode on her back.

I am absolutely heartbroken. What has become of my army?

There is no excuse for this behavior. None at all. The soldiers involved should be tried, and punished to the full extent of the law. The same goes for the "civilian contractors" that ordered these atrocities.

Lastly, Bush should resign. Failing that he should be impeached. Given the nature of congress, that won't happen...in which case, he should be overthrown.

Not only has he waged a war of aggression for reasons that even he cannot explain, he has ruined the army I was so proud of...to paraphrase Augustus:

BUSH! BUSH! GIVE ME BACK MY LEGIONS!
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punpirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 05:25 AM
Response to Original message
1. Give me back my legions?
The very notion of legions is at the heart of the problem.

Legions are the harbingers and enablers of empire.

Bush and his ilk have simply used our bloated military for their own ends, and failure to acknowledge this simple fact encourages the regret you feel.

The problem in the country is not ancillary evidence of militarism, but, rather, militarism itself.

Praising armies and invasions is the problem, because it is evidence of the militarism encouraged by this country's continued support of candidates who support imperialism.

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MadProphetMargin Donating Member (756 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 05:33 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. I NEVER praised this invasion.
...but the army that existed when I was in would have tried and shot these monsters.

But that army is gone now, it seems, destroyed by Bush & Co's ambitions.

What is left is nothing more than just another imperialist army, no different than any other in the history of this misbegotten lump of rock.
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punpirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 05:39 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. Quoting from you...
"BUSH! BUSH! GIVE ME BACK MY LEGIONS!"

The operative word is "legions," and what that word implies. That's what I addressed.

Legions imply imperialism, by definition, according to history.

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MadProphetMargin Donating Member (756 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 05:44 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. No, the Romans had legions long before they had an empire.
Even before they were a republic. The Tarquin dynasty (the last Kings of Rome) formulated the basic prototype.
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punpirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 05:51 AM
Response to Reply #16
24. Quibble as you will...
... the Roman legions enabled the quest for empire--that's the real point.

So many apologists for this country's imperial ambitions... and so little time.
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MadProphetMargin Donating Member (756 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 05:52 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. Having an army != imperialism.
Unless you think the Swiss are rampaging imperialists.
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punpirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 05:54 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. Sophistry n/t
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JHBowden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #26
52. Makes sense to me.
However, some will still insist the military of the United States is imperialist in all possible worlds.
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AntiCoup2K4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #26
71. Serving in the Swiss Army must be a boring job
Since Switzerland's always neutral, there's not a lot for them to do, except play with their cool pocket knives. :evilgrin:
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #4
61. the military is a fascist tool now
it just reflects what it is being used for.

the hardline Repuke supporters in the military have gotten what they wanted
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MadProphetMargin Donating Member (756 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-09-04 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #61
73. Sadly, that's a fact.
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Pepperbelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 06:48 AM
Response to Reply #1
38. The quotation was after Varus lost 3 legions in Germania. nt
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 05:28 AM
Response to Original message
2. I said it in the 70s and I'll say it again FTA!
They will destroy every EM involved and the truly guilty will get off scott free, MMW! Rumbow as much as said so yesterday! I did my time and was goddamned glad to get out and to get out alive! Keep watching as this unfolds and you will see in Red, Black and White, why John Kerry and some other REAL heroes, protested the SHIT these GOP military industrial complex PIGS did then and continue to do today! FTA! BTW, if you don't like the shit the brass have been doing you can always write your congressman, but don't count on an answer to your letter if your congressman is a fucking GOPer ASS-KISSING Pig!
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MadProphetMargin Donating Member (756 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 05:34 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. I think the days when writing your congressman helped anything are
long gone.
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 05:38 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. If your congressman was Bobby Byrd you would know better!
Tell your friends that your best weapon is now the same as it's always been YOUR VOTE!
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MadProphetMargin Donating Member (756 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 05:44 AM
Response to Reply #9
17. My congressman is a half-wit republican stooge.
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 05:51 AM
Response to Reply #17
25. Nuff Said!
The GOPers care more about helping Bush steal from us for four more years and use the military for a political tool to win a few votes, than they do about their country or it's soldiers! Shame on those unAmerican self-serving PIGS!
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MadProphetMargin Donating Member (756 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 05:54 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. They'll do it, too. After this, Bush will have trouble in the polls, as
his entire campaign is based on Iraq, and this is souring the American public on the war.

But he'll still be in office in 2005. Trust me on this one.

MPM,
Knows a would-be king when he sees one.

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liberalpress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #17
65. Hey, Wait a minute..
..my Congresswoman is Marsha Blackburn! Calling her a half-wit is an insult to half-wits!
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #6
63. If your Congressman was Henry Waxman, it would help.
Edited on Sat May-08-04 11:10 AM by calimary
Or George Miller. Or Diane Watson. Or Maxine Waters. Or Barbara Lee. Or Jim McDermott. Or Pete Stark. Or John Conyers. Or Charlie Rangel. Or DENNIS KUCINICH!!! Or...

There are still many good ones. There are more warming up in the bullpen. If things are going bad, and Americans are viewed as in a bad mood (which is regarded as bad news for bush - one hopes)...

See this thread by DUer SEpatriot:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1557166

"LEGISLATIVE UPDATE - WEEK ENDING May 7, 2004

CONGRESS IN SESSION

THE PRESIDENCY

NATIONAL BAD MOOD

According to the newest national polls, our nation is in a bad mood and this is very bad news for President George W. Bush. A Gallup poll released on May 6th indicates that only 36% of Americans are satisfied with "... the way things are in the United States" and 62% are dissatisfied. The President now has an overall approval rating of 49%, with 56% disapproving of the way he is handling the economy. Also, for the first time a majority of people disapprove of his handling of foreign affairs..."


...then there's liable to be a few KERRY coattails bringing some fresh faces into Congress.

I also noted yesterday - the famous "Friday news dump day" - wasn't such a big news dump favorable to bush, either. Yesterday, job numbers came out which were supposedly good (haven't crunched the numbers too much yet to figure out what's really happening). But the news was drowned out by all the shouting over the prisoner torture story and its own HUGE coattails - with even more promised if we're to believe the statements about more, and even worse, photos and videos just ahead...

PLEASE DON'T GIVE UP!!!!! NOT NOW. Now's when we need you on the "Nag Circuit" EVEN MORE. We can ALL take a break in November, good or bad. But NOW is not the time to pause, or to allow yourself to become disheartened. If you can find it in your heart, even as it's breaking (BELIEVE ME, I know how that is! MY heart must look like a shattered windshield by now), PLEASE don't give up just yet!!!

And what the hell? Calling 'em won't cost you anything...
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #6
67. NOT writing your congressperson
has never helped much, either.
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MadProphetMargin Donating Member (756 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-09-04 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #67
74. Point.
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retread Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 05:40 AM
Response to Reply #2
12. FTA!!! Have not thought about that for many years. Fun, Travel and
Adventure right? When I got out in 1968 it was hard to walk a block on an army base and not see those initials somewhere.
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HEFFA Donating Member (414 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 05:41 AM
Response to Reply #2
13. Flottz, why are you holding back? Just be honest with your feelings, man.
Thanks for sharing. I share your view and your frustration.
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 05:46 AM
Response to Reply #13
20. Cause I'm a nice fucking guy!
I love and respect our servicemen for the job they have done in the past and the job they are doing today! It's the people who mislead them that I have always HATED!
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MadProphetMargin Donating Member (756 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 05:50 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. In the case of the MP unit in question, they have no such excuse.
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Pepperbelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 06:49 AM
Response to Reply #2
39. Hey, Hubert, I thought it was FTN!
Edited on Sat May-08-04 06:58 AM by Pepperbelly
:D

Leastways, that's what WE said.
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #39
50. Weenies is Weenies!
Some are OD Green and some are Blue! The outcome is the same if you get caught bending over! F them before the F-ed you was all you could do!
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pfitz59 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 05:33 AM
Response to Original message
3. Col Kurtz is in charge.....
Nuff said...
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 05:33 AM
Response to Original message
5. Oh BTW, welcome to DU fellow vet!
Remember that the "Army takes care of it's own" as this all unfolds! I think what is about to happen is LOOOOOOOOOOOONG overdue!
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MadProphetMargin Donating Member (756 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 05:36 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. Granted...the Army will punish those responsible. However, what about
the "civilian contractors" (read: CIA scum) who ordered these atrocities?

Nothing.

What about Rumsfeld, who knew about this since JANUARY, and did nothing? Why, little Georgie has been falling all over himself to make it clear that Rummy still has a job...when he should be on trial.
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 05:41 AM
Response to Reply #7
14. They make me ashamed to have EVER worn the uniform!
The Bush Family helped invent the CIA you tell me! Your second best weapon is your brain, use it!
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #7
48. No, you've got that wrong!
The army taking care of their own means the exact opposite of what you thought! What it does mean, is that the LIFERS will ALWAYS cover each other's asses and let the little guys face the meat grinder!
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theoceansnerves Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 05:38 AM
Response to Original message
8. the shilling over this is the worst
"abuse"... "mistreatment"... "frat house style hazing".. if the country puts up with this, they will put up with anything.
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MadProphetMargin Donating Member (756 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 05:46 AM
Response to Reply #8
19. WHAT? Who the HELL said "frat house hazing"???
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theoceansnerves Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 05:53 AM
Response to Reply #19
27. well i can reference two
u.s. sargeant tony robinson on hannity and colmes (with hannity agreeing)
http://mediamatters.org/items/200405030010

rush limbaugh said it was no worse than a skull and bones initiation:
http://mediamatters.org/items/200405050003

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MadProphetMargin Donating Member (756 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #27
31. Perhaps Rush and Hannity should give it a try, eh?
Edited on Sat May-08-04 05:56 AM by MadProphetMargin
Fat-headed frickin' tards.

Rape, murder, and torture are just a little high-spirited hijinks?
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theoceansnerves Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 05:58 AM
Response to Reply #31
33. i just wonder
what they are going to say when the rest of the pictures and the video/audio is eventually leaked. who is going to call them on their statements that it's nothing more than pranks and stress relief?
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MadProphetMargin Donating Member (756 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 06:04 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. Other than Al Franken? Why, nobody, of course.
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HEFFA Donating Member (414 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 05:39 AM
Response to Original message
11. It's called ethnocentrism, and it's fueled this entire campaign in Iraq.
When you proceed from a position of cultural superiority, such as that which is promoted daily here in America, it becomes terribly difficult to view others as equal or deserving of the type of equal treatment that you believe is deserved by you or your own.

What I'm trying to say is that this entire campaign in Iraq was predicated on the misplaced, ill-informed, and ethnocentric view that the Iraqi people would be better off if they were "free." Thus, we decided to do them (and, we argued, the whole world) a favor by "liberating" them. Of course, we never really asked them if they wanted our help. We just assumed that, since life in America is surely the best in the world, other people in other places must want what we have. We failed to consider the centuries of culture that already exist in that area of the world (hey, didn't life supposedly begin there?), and simply assumed that they would welcome our "gift" of freedom with open arms. The fact that they don't want our culture, and in fact, they absolutely abhor it was never even a consideration.

When this mentality is the dominant one, as it clearly is in this country, and among its citizens, we are setting ourselves up for failure. Instead of capitalizing on opportunities to truly help people in other parts of the world, in ways that are truly meaningful to them and respectful of their wishes, we assume that we know better. After all, we're smarter, stronger, and more free than anyone else -- we must be right!

I'm no expert on international relations, but I would like to think that I know a thing or two about people. It's only my opinion, and I'm sure that I'll get blasted for what I've already said, but it seems to me that the best way for the U.S. to lead the world is by the example that we set for the rest of the world. We shouldn't be shoving our culture or our "interests" down the throats of the people that we share this planet with and that we purport to lead. We shouldn't be attempting to win their hearts and minds at the end of a gun barrel. We should lead by example, and show them what a democratic and free (superior?) culture looks like and acts like. That being the case, it seems to me that we've got a lot of work to do around here before our nation can truly serve as a "beacon" to the rest of the world. It's time to clean up our attitudes and stop viewing the rest of the nations in this world as pawns to be manipulated for purposes of our own interests. It's time for us to realize that people everywhere (including right here at home) have many of the same interests. If we can help them to realize those interests, we will have come a lot further towards realizing our own.

In direct response to your original post, I would suggest that some people serving in our military, although unquestionably brave and deserving of praise for their willingness to serve, are unquestionably tainted by this sense of cultural superiority. They have been trained to view "others" as enemies. Thus, they are ill-suited for the nation-building tasks that lay before us in Iraq. To suggest that the kinds of things that we've seen taking place at Abu-Ghraib are limited in scope or number is naive. These practices are surely more widespread than this isolated example would suggest. Furthermore, I have to believe that the same mentality (NOTE: mentality, not actions) that supports the de-humanizing mistreatment of prisoners there is being exercised daily in communities throughout Iraq. This is not to belittle the valiant and well-meaning efforts of thousands of our troops in that region, whose efforts I am truly grateful for. But, I personally see the actions at Abu-Ghraib as indicative of the larger mentality that has been exercised since the inception of our "campaign of liberation."

It is the same culturally imperialistic logic that we have seen throughout history. Rather than deal with these people as equals, or on equal terms, we are "saving" them by shining our light of freedom upon them. It sickens me.
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caledesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 05:45 AM
Response to Reply #11
18. Excellent post Heffa! nt
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MadProphetMargin Donating Member (756 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 05:49 AM
Response to Reply #11
22. Every culture in the world is ethnocentric, to some degree.
But they don't all commit atrocities.
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HEFFA Donating Member (414 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 05:55 AM
Response to Reply #22
30. I agree completely about the universality of ethnocentrism.
My question is this: what is it about some cultures that leads them to act in atrocious ways, based on their ethnocentric views?

I mean, it's obvious that people everywhere believe that their culture is "right." If they didn't, they wouldn't live as they do. Our way of life becomes it's own justification. But, what is it that makes some peoples and some governments so arrogant as to believe that their way of life should be promoted over others?
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MadProphetMargin Donating Member (756 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 05:58 AM
Response to Reply #30
32. Power. Only this, and nothing more. All nations that become world
powers EVENTUALLY try their hand at the imperialism game. We've been flirting with it since 1945, but I thought perhaps we had avoided the curse.

Nope.
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Insider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 06:33 AM
Response to Reply #11
37. great post
and i would add that the mentality you describe so clearly was only used as a tool by this admin to facilitate the takeover. they understand the imperialist mentality, the war mentality. they use the knowledge to create the right environment where we can go to afghanistan and iraq and take control of oil & energy resources, and bolster the MIC with our treasury.

i wish i could explain as clearly, but i believe they just use the tools, opposed to them really believing in it.

we have all been used, 'bamboozled' as spike pput it.
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othermeans Donating Member (858 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 06:54 AM
Response to Reply #11
40. Do you know the new word for Iraqis?
The military has used a lot of terms for enemies some of the most derogatory are directed at non-european cultures.

Indians used to be referred to as Redskins, savages or "Lo" probably a reference to the poem where the line Lo the noble redman is used

Filipinos were referred to as little monkeys during the Spanish American War

Strangely the Germans were hung with Kraut or Hun during the First and Second World War

The Japanese those "little yellow monkeys"

Korean, Vietnamese-gooks, zipperheads

Now the Iraqis are referred to as Hadji or Ali-Baba
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TeeYiYi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #40
54. Don't forget . . .
. . . towel heads or rag heads. I have a brother-in-law who has been spewing those. He also mentioned the frat house hazing. I knew then, once and for all, that he doesn't have an original thought in his thick melon. :eyes:


Rush's sentiments were called out pretty handily on NOW with Bill Moyers last night. I think his comments will come back to haunt him. Asshole.

TYY
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liberalpress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #54
66. I have an acquaintance...
who prefers the term (forgive me, I'm quoting) "sand-niggers." Which to me says more about him than them
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #11
46. I second the sickened!
Edited on Sat May-08-04 08:21 AM by Hubert Flottz
To put it simply, as I did on DU when the WAR drums were being beaten by the Reich Wankers: "What Bush is doing is exactly like the Boy Scout helping the old lady across the street, who does not want to cross the street!"

The Military Industrial Complex works it's magic through the process of dehumanization much like a common serial killer justifies his killing! When you put someone like GW Bush in charge of the military you have committed a horrible blunder and when you add a congress and supreme court who chooses not to check Bush's power you have a disaster in the making! A disaster exactly like Mr Joe Wilson is talking about!

Bush's moral values are nonexistent and he proves it over and over! Here is an example of classic of Bush dehumanization:

At the 1988 Republican Convention that nominated his father, George Bush Sr., for President, Hartford Courant associate editor David Fink struck up a conversation with George W:

Fink: "When you're not talking politics, what do you and talk about?"

George W: "Pussy."

http://www.intellnet.org/resources/american_terrorism/AmConGWB.html

Now at first this may seem like just a "rowdy friend" type answer from the idiot, but underneath it shows a much deeper flaw! When it comes to the ladies Bush does not think about the heart and mind of the female, he thinks in terms of what's in it for him, as he does on about everything that he ponders! He does not seem to consider them as people but as a commodity! His daughters may even realize this because they know him quite well and thus rebel! The ladies that Shawcross or Bundy killed were pieces of meat to them also, they were a commodity to be used and discarded!

I am very afraid that Bush IS in fact, truly evil, just as the people I mentioned above were! Remember how he laughed and joked about the woman in Texas who was begging for her life on death row! When asked on one of the debates with Al Gore in 2000 about the number of people he had used the death penalty in Texas to kill Bush smirked and grinned and was proud of his record! At that point I began to have a very healthy fear and disrespect for Mr Bush!

I regret state sponsored killing, in any form! How can people who believe in God, judge and kill other people, when the Bible says it's up to God to take care of it? I do believe that it may soon come down to a Coup for a Coup, and I'm sorry for the blood that may flow in our own streets, because of these morans stupidity and greed!

I once took an oath to defend my Constitution and I took that oath very seriously! I still do! It boils down to personal discipline and a real since of values for everyone in the equation!

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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #11
72. MOST eloquent. I think you're spot-on about this.
Why indeed SHOULD we feel compelled to shove our way of life down the throats of other cultures? Why should we feel driven to force our brand of "democracy" upon them - AND at the barrel of a gun, to add insult to injury? I think you're 100% correct about this. I see this superiority complex manifested all over the right wing, every day.
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atre Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 05:42 AM
Response to Original message
15. I still don't blame the soldiers
These guys are fed a daily dose of Faux News propoganda. They're constantly told they're avenging 9/11, so they associate the local peoples with the terrorist attackers (notwithstanding the absence of any connection whatsoever). This sort of thing fuels all the anti-Arab hatred that you see on display in those pictures.

Sorry, I don't buy the "few bad apples" defense. The whole lot is rotten, and the reason is not because the soldiers themselves are rotten, but rather because the Bush Administration made them that way.
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MadProphetMargin Donating Member (756 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 05:48 AM
Response to Reply #15
21. In addition, our "strategy" seems to be to drive in circles until blown up
But this is NO excuse for what happened in that prison.

Line troops losing it would be understandable, if not excusable.

But these...GESTAPO have absolutely NO justification. None.
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 06:01 AM
Response to Reply #21
34. You got that shit right Bro!
No Excuse for being exactly like the Despots the claim to abhor!

I'm Hubert Flottz and I don't approve of Bush's panty waisted Excuses! The man is a liar and a national disgrace! He was a coward then and is still one now! Not a leader at all but a Mis-Leader! CIC my ASS!
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-09-04 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #15
80. The Conduct is Pervasive - it's part of the Warrior Ethos Program
Must_B_Free (1000+ posts) Tue May-04-04 08:49 PM
Original message
The Conduct is Pervasive - it's part of the Warrior Ethos Program


Warrior Ethos, a product of Task Force Soldier, is the concept of preparing every Soldier to close with and destroy the enemy when necessary, even if it means doing it with his or her bare
hands.

http://www-tradoc.army.mil/pao/Web_specials/WarriorEthos/026404.asp

-------------------------------------------------------

"The gas chamber is a beautiful place," said a smiling Sgt. 1st Class Freddie Thompson, 2nd Platoon drill sergeant. "I’ve had privates big and bad, and they’re the biggest sissies in there."

Thompson has been a drill sergeant for more than a year and is in his seventh BCT cycle. He said the gas chamber is one of the top three most memorable events for trainees in basic training, up there with the 40-foot high Treadwell Tower and qualifying with the M-16A1 rifles.

"It’s kind of along the lines of thrill-seeking," he said.

"The majority are kind of excited. It’s something you’re scared of, but it’s so scary it’s fun, and it’s so fun it’s scary."

http://www-tradoc.army.mil/pao/Web_specials/WarriorEthos/031704.htm

-------------------------------------------------------

The nature of missions being conducted in Iraq right now requires Soldiers to have close contact with the civilian populace, where a lack of combatives skills can be a major concern, said Maj. Jon Segars, 3rd Brigade training and operations officer.

Soldiers are taught to dominate opponents by seizing the initiative in a fight rather than reacting to enemy attacks as most civilian self-defense courses teach.

Sgt. 1st Class Jeremy Brown, a Combatives School instructor, said the school is using feedback from Soldiers who were deployed to Iraq, Afghanistan and the Balkans through after-action interviews to further develop the curriculum. For example, the Soldiers felt they weren’t prepared to deal with large numbers of detainees.

The course teaches Soldiers to fight, but it also has an indirect effect on the Soldiers, he said. It also instills aggressiveness and confidence in the Soldier and embodies what Warrior Ethos represents, he said.

http://www-tradoc.army.mil/pao/Web_specials/WarriorEthos/032804.htm

-------------------------------------------------------

"I am a Warrior and a member of a team. I stand ready to deploy, engage and destroy the enemies of the United States of America, states the Soldiers Creed. These words will subconsciously remind Soldiers and leaders they have to be comfortable with uncertainty", Simpson said.

http://www-tradoc.army.mil/pao/Web_specials/WarriorEthos/033504.htm

-------------------------------------------------------

Not interested in directing a research project, rather with getting results as quickly as they can be made available, Cloy said his office uses resources from the civilian sector as well as the military.

The future force Soldier is equipped for battle, physically but also spiritually, morally and ethically, Cloy said. This Soldier is able to accept and adapt to cultural as well as environmental differences.

"We research how to teach Soldiers what they believe in Army Values and how those values work in other countries, like Iraq. We don’t teach Soldiers that in basic training: how to deal with people who think differently," said Cloy. "The human dimension is cognitive, psychological, physiological and spiritual. It’s an attitude, a warfighter attitude. That’s why we say it’s ‘from the skin in.’"

http://www-tradoc.army.mil/pao/Web_specials/WarriorEthos/036304.htm

-------------------------------------------------------

Fifty percent of Drill Sergeant School is conducted in classrooms. There, candidates must learn not only what their training must produce but what priority to give motivation to fight. Because drill sergeants train new Soldiers, the huge responsibility for creating the right mindset rests solely on their shoulders.

http://www-tradoc.army.mil/pao/Web_specials/WarriorEthos/036504.htm

-------------------------------------------------------

The training has made Chan ready, he said. "The warrior in me was dormant, and it was awakened by my drill sergeants. I will fight for my country," he said.

Chan joined the Army, he said, because three of his friends and a cousin were killed in the attacks on the World Trade Center Sept. 11, 2001.

"It was a horrible experience. If there was anything I could do, this was it," he said.

http://www-tradoc.army.mil/pao/Web_specials/WarriorEthos/021804.htm

-------------------------------------------------------

This is a series about change.

How a 17-year-old from Nettleton, "Mis’sippi," is changed from a boy to a man in less than one-fourth the amount of time it will take for his unborn child to grow from an egg to a baby in his fiancee’s womb.

It’s about training warriors.

http://www-tradoc.army.mil/pao/Web_specials/WarriorEthos/023704.htm

-------------------------------------------------------

"Three hundred thousand Soldiers are deployed right now and doing things not just in Iraq and Afghanistan, but all over the globe. It’s incredible," Schoomaker said. "And these people are operating on intent. I’ve been there, looked them in the eye. And what I recognize is what I’ve seen many, many times over: a degree of will, the ability to kill and the kinds of things we have got to be able to do on the battlefield to win."

The Army’s plan is to have Warrior Ethos totally embedded into every Soldier by Fiscal Year 2006. This includes making it part of basic and AIT for new Soldiers, and potentially part of the Noncommissioned Officer Evaluation System and Officer Evaluation System as well. By implementing Warrior Ethos worldwide, the Army will enhance the warrior spirit in the world’s greatest fighting force, enabling Soldiers to be more ready to fight and win anytime, in any conditions, anywhere in the world.




http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1530692#1535180


Look for Kevin Byrnes and Warrior Ethos.
===================================

Must_B_Free (1000+ posts) Mon May-03-04 12:47 AM
Response to Original message

39. Here's some coincidental strategy branding regarding Fallujah

Edited on Mon May-03-04 01:43 AM by Must_B_Free
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1102940,00.html

Tuesday December 9, 2003

The Pentagon did not return calls seeking comment, but a military planner, Brigadier General Michael Vane, mentioned the cooperation with Israel in a letter to Army magazine in July about the Iraq counter-insurgency campaign.

"We recently travelled to Israel to glean lessons learned from their counterterrorist operations in urban areas," wrote General Vane, deputy chief of staff at the army's training and doctrine command.

"When we turn to anyone for insights, it doesn't mean we blindly accept it," Col Peters said. "But I think what you're seeing is a new realism. The American tendency is to try to win all the hearts and minds. In Iraq, there are just some hearts and minds you can't win. Within the bounds of human rights, if you do make an example of certain villages it gets the attention of the others, and attacks have gone down in the area."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3702655 /
Dec. 13, 2003

JERUSALEM - In fighting insurgents in Iraq, the United States is drawing on some of Israel’s methods and experiences in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, including running checkpoints and tracking militants with drone aircraft, Israeli officials say.

Israeli and U.S. security experts have met repeatedly in recent months to discuss urban warfare and Israel’s lessons from its grueling three-year fight against Palestinian militants

Israeli expert predicts U.S. defeat

“They are already doing things that we have been doing for years to no avail, like demolishing buildings ... like closing off villages in barbed wire,” Van Creveld said. “The Americans are coming here to try to mimic all kinds of techniques, but it’s not going to do them any good.”

“I don’t see how on earth they (the U.S.) can win. I think this is going to end the same way Vietnam did,” Van Creveld said. “They are going to flee the country hanging on the strings of helicopters,” he added, referring to the 1973 U.S. departure from Saigon.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0929/p07s02-wome.html
September 29, 2003 edition

US eyes Israeli software as training tool for forces in Iraq

For US soldiers wondering what they should and should not do in their role as occupiers of Iraq, help may be on the way from the Israel Defense Forces.

The Israeli military has developed a software program to teach junior commanders 11 "codes of conduct'' when operating among civilians - fight only those fighting you, respect the dignity of the local population, don't pillage, and so forth.

The subsequent animation tells viewers that mistreating civilians can turn them into the enemy. Another image depicts civilians who deserve to be treated with "dignity and humanity": a woman holding a child, a cleric, an elderly man, and a representative of the civil authority.

http://www.hindu.com/2004/04/28/stories/2004042802061600.htm
Wednesday, Apr 28, 2004
U.S. tactics in Iraq carry Israeli imprint

MANAMA, APRIL 27. In enforcing its siege around Fallujah, the U.S. has employed tactics similar to the ones that Israel has adopted against Palestinian fighters, in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

The U.S.-Israeli connection in this field can be traced to the April 2002 battle of Jenin in the West Bank, defence analysts say. American troops, soon after this clash, were reportedly sent for training to the mock Arab town that the Israeli Army had created in the Tzrifin area of the southern Negev Desert.

The U.S. publication Defence News has reported that in December 2003, senior Israeli military officers hosted a series of meetings involving a U.S. team headed by Gen. Kevin Byrnes, commander of the U.S. army's training and doctrine command.

------------------

Could it be possible that rekindling Americas new spirit of torture is just one of many parts of a strategy called "New Realism"?

I would almost expect "Neo Conservatives" to use "New Realism" as a coined justification for torture?

Here's where it gets really ugly:

------------------

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1207-06.htm

Published on Sunday, December 7, 2003 by the New York Times
Tough New Tactics by U.S. Tighten Grip on Iraq Towns

In selective cases, American soldiers are demolishing buildings thought to be used by Iraqi attackers. They have begun imprisoning the relatives of suspected guerrillas, in hopes of pressing the insurgents to turn themselves in.

=============================

Aries (442 posts) Sat May-08-04 11:28 AM
Response to Original message

30. Lt. Gen. William G. "Jerry" Boykin, for one


via Josh Marshall:

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2004_05_02.php#002926

"...In many of the articles on this emerging Iraqi prisoners story, it has been claimed that some of the key instigators or enablers of bad acts were military intelligence officers.

Now, who's the head of military intelligence? 'Head' is too vague. There's no such post per se. But what comes pretty close is the Deputy Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence.

And who's that? Lt. Gen. William G. "Jerry" Boykin.

Remember him? He's the one who got in trouble last year for describing his battle with a Muslim Somali warlord by saying "I knew that my God was bigger than his God. I knew that my God was a real God and his was an idol", saying President Bush was chosen by God, and generally that the war on terror is an apocalyptic struggle between Christianity and Satan...."


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1553028#1554466
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-09-04 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #15
81. It sure did! / Torture Sanctioned by Pentagon / Doug Feith
riverwalker (406 posts)
Fri May-07-04 07:46 PM
Original message
JAG: it reaches Douglas Feith



Torture Sanctioned by Pentagon

Bar Association: Torture Sanctioned by Pentagon Appointees
Salon is reporting that a report compiled by the Committee on International Law of the New York City Bar Association has found that the American military's treatment of detainees and prisoners of war in Afghanistan, Cuba and Iraq violates international law — and the compilers of the report say that the techniques employed by interrogators at prisons such as Abu Ghraib were "sanctioned by Pentagon political appointees."

Joe Conason of Salon reports that Scott Horton, a partner at Patterson, Belknap, Webb and Tyler and chair of the Committee on International Law was told by "senior" members of the Judge Advocate General Corps that high ranking political appointees were behind the abuse. Says Conason:

http://www.warblogging.com/


    Lack of protection

    <snip>

    Indeed, Horton says that the JAG officers specifically warned him that Undersecretary of Defense for Policy Douglas J. Feith,one of the most powerful political appointees in the Pentagon, had significantly weakened the military's rules and regulations governing prisoners of war. The officers told Horton that Feith and the Defense Department's general counsel, William J. Haynes II, were creating "an atmosphere of legal ambiguity" that would allow mistreatment of prisoners in Iraq and Afghanistan.


    Douglas Feith, President Bush's Undersecretary of Defense for Policy — and number three man at the Pentagon — reportedly summed up Protocol One of the Geneva Conventions of 1977 as "law in the service of terrorism".

    In the past, Conason writes, all interrogations conducted by military personnel were monitored by a member of the Judge Advocate General corps from behind a two-way mirror. All interrogations were monitored, and the JAG officer was "emplowered to stop any misconduct". But senior Pentagon officials removed that requirement. :wow: Not only did JAG officers no longer monitor interrogations, but private military contractors were allowed to conduct interrogations.

    <snip>

    After hearing the complaints of the JAG officers, Horton and his bar colleagues wrote to Haynes and the CIA's general counsel in an effort to clarify U.S. policy on the treatment and interrogation of detainees. Those inquiries, he recalls, "were met with a firm brushoff. We then turned to senators who had raised the issue previously, and assisted their staff in pursuing the issue directly with the Pentagon. These inquiries met with a similar brushoff." The Bush administration wanted no meddling by human rights lawyers as it brought democracy and human rights to the benighted region.

    <snip>

    Horton says that career military officers at the Pentagon were "greatly upset" by what they regarded as the deliberate destruction of traditions and methods that have long protected soldiers as well as civilians. Those officers, and others who may have evidence to offer, are obviously reluctant to step forward and speak because they fear reprisal from the Pentagon and the White House. They have been instructed not to talk to anyone about these issues. It is to be hoped that in the investigations to come -- whether or not Secretary of State Donald Rumsfeld and Undersecretary Feith keep their jobs -- those conscientious officers will be able to tell what they know about the decisions that led to this national disaster.


    <snip>

    http://www.salon.com/opinion/conason/2004/05/07/rights/index.html



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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 06:05 AM
Response to Original message
36. Line up, Sign Up and check this shit out!
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Malva Zebrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 06:56 AM
Response to Original message
41. Lots of people were guilt laden
If one did not adopt that guilt laden jingo, "support the troops" one was considered a heartless traitor to some hometown cause which is not readily discernable.

Many found it hard to believe that these youngsters were ruthlessly snatched from their mother's arms and sent against their will to far away places to conquor a "bad man" and bring the great American freedoms to these ignorant people who suffered under that one "bad man"

I am sorry these soldiers are there in harm's way and not home enjoying the fruits of their signing up,ie a college education or simply a salary or the acquiring of a trade, and willingness to be our guards on the home front, though.

But, many of them wanted to go and kill people , perhaps out of some sense of lingering feelings of revenge for 9-11 attack, as they wrongly believed that they were going to fight terrorists who threaten us or the "glory" of it all, as the propaganda inevitably promises. Those who pointed out that the youngsters signed up , and wondered what on earth they expected when they were deployed to a war, were also villified and looked at askance for seeing the realitiy.

"Supporting the troops" implies tacit support of the mission. These are not conscripted troops. So many could not say they "supported the troops"

The mission for America is NOT that our freedoms are under attack . I think every person here realizes that.

It can only be, at this point in our development as a country, for purposes of expansion and empire and coveting the spoils of small, defenseless countries, and be sure, there will always be some superficial excuse such as:--bad man-Saddam, women are quashed and forced to wear burquas and little girls cannot go to school and I am sure there is an endless supply of these rationalisations available to any US president who wants to expand the US empire. Most appeal to the, arrogance and supercilious attitude of many Americans--we are the best, the greatest and everyone needs to be just like us. and there are many Americans who think it is what we should be doing, before they do it to us first--the lesson of Strauss or Machiavelli

I wonder if any amount of humility will result in the mindset of American after this slaughter and the harsh reality of what our troops are doing there in the prison and probably in Guantanamo as well. Bush has done everything he can to bring America down to an animalistic, barbaric and ignorant country.

While he, and his upholstered, waxed up frump, go about merrily on their way, raising obscene amounts of money so that he can continue to drag us down into the muck of shame and embarrassment.

The accolade that we are "bringing democracy" is just hubris. Look how fast the corporations were able to establish themselves there, complete with mercenaries, many of them, to guard them. We even had it written into the interim government's constitution of Iraq, which corporations cannot be dissolved. We are fighting so that corporations can make more money. In that sense, Bush has indeed accomplished what he wanted, desired and coveted, no doubt. Bought and paid for with the blood of American youth.

It is forced occupation , accomplished with methods we were so proud of -- a blitzkreig of "shock and awe", megabombs-- and it is murder



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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #41
49. You said:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
"The mission for America is NOT that our freedoms are under attack"

If you think our freedom is not under attack you'd damned well better think again! The attack is being carried out buy our own Un-American Right Wing! An led by a would be Dictator and his cronies who thought up the patriot acts I and II! That is one thing Bush was not lying about when he smirkingly said your freedom was under attack! Make no mistake about it, your freedom is at stake in November!
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Malva Zebrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #49
68. right
I agree with you. He continues to dig out the propaganda and hubris by appealing to those sheep who would have themselves be brave heroes because they are fighting for our "freedoms". It has not a damn thing to do with fighting for our freedoms--we are not in danger of losing our freedoms from some puny little country far away, that has no military, nothing, and is impoverished ???. I wonder if the finger gun pointing, little female snit thought that by humiliating prisoners, like an animal, she was fighting for our "freedoms".,

I saw a documentary on the cadets at West Point, and believe it or not, the young female cadet that was being interviewed, said she was proud to fight for "our freedoms"

Fascism is rearing it's ugly head and never before has it been as obvious as under this evil man who from the beginning was in over his ignorant head--I hope we have bred a generation, some children who can see the light here and are strong enough and smart enough to not be in the minority and to demand of their country, moral and ethical parameters that are worthy of a rich and powerful country such as ours

Obviously, religion does not do it.

I may not see it in my lifetime.
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Pachamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 07:01 AM
Response to Original message
42. The Cure for Americans (and the World's) Nausea
I agree with you about your call for Bush's resignation...sadly, that won't happen...he and the rest of the Bush Administratin need to be fired...Your references to the Legions (thus referencing an empire) are very appropriate. I also appreciate hearing what the opinion of military (or former military personnel is about the current situation).

Now that we all are living on hourly doses of Pepto- "Dismal" to make it through the day, we are now being instructed by our Government to be prepared for even worse? What? It gets even worse than what we have already been seeing for the last 3+ years? Worse than the heinous and sickening photos of human rights violations of Iraqi Prisoners already released by the NY Times,CBS and others publicly over the last week?

In Friday's hearing with Rumsfeld on Capitol Hill, Rumsfeld said “There are other photos that depict incidents of physical violence towards prisoners, acts that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhumane," he said. “... It’s going to get a good deal more terrible, I’m afraid.” Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., said he wants to "prepare the public: Apparently the worst is yet to come potentially in terms of disturbing events." and that "The American public needs to understand we're talking about rape and murder here. We're not just talking about giving people a humiliating experience."

Are we ready America? Are you ready to see what the rest of the world is seeing about us and saying about what the United States of America stands for? Rape, Sodomy and Murder of human beings? Possibly even of children?

I don't know about the rest of America, but I can't stomach much more of this...just when you thought you couldn't vomit anymore at this administration and its arrogance and blatant disregard of International Law, Civil Liberties, and human rights, we find out that under the direction of our very own government that we have become the biggest violators of human rights and that our military is being run by a bunch of sadistic torturers. The whole world is watching and getting sick as well. Wake up America and realize its going to take a lot more than the Purple Pill Nexium to stop the Nausea...

Firing Rumsfeld would be a start. The arrogance and recklessness of this man is only growing. Then again, most of his staff and direct reports at the Pentagon are no better. Folks, the real person to focus on is our so-called "Commander in Chief" George W. Bush - with rank comes the privileges, the credit, but also the responsibility for both good and bad. He's real good at strutting on to an aircraft carrier in a flight suit with a bulge in his pants, declaring he's a wartime President and of course ordering our young sons and daughters to invade a sovereign nation under false pretenses of 9/11 connections and those elusive WMD's (and for which they are dieing and we taxpayers are paying for), but for him to claim that he had no knowledge of these heinous acts of sadistic humiliation and torture on "his watch" until the rest of us did, just doesn't cut it. Is he in charge or not?

America, you want to stop the nausea? - Fire Bush. Fire Cheney. Fire Rumsfeld. Fire Ashcroft - the whole bunch of them. Then be prepared to work very, very hard for the next two or three decades repairing our image, reputation and honor amongst our fellow human beings and Nations on this planet and restoring honor to our country and flag and the constitution on which we are founded and have died for.
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sleepyhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #42
43. Great post!
You're entirely correct - the whole world IS watching and taking note. We need to get this entire administration - the whole lot of them - out of office and preferably in jail.

Oh, and welcome, by the way!
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Pachamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 07:32 AM
Response to Reply #43
44. Glad to be a new member of the Democratic Underground
Hi Sleepyhead and the rest of the sane world!

Thanks for the nice welcome! Yes, I'm new to the Democratic Underground (found it through Good ole Google) and am glad to find a forum for sanity in this insane world...It's 5:30AM and I can't sleep...I have a 3 mos old and a 4 year old and I keep wondering what kind of world is going to be there for them....

Anyway, this is administration is full of war criminals and should all be tried on the world court - oh, that's right - the Bush Administration doesn't recognize the World Court's authority! Anyhow, I plan to be a regular member of this community along with my daily phone calls to Congressional Reps & Senators, letters to editors, donations to Kerry and Moveon.org and not sleep until Bush Co. is back in the hole they crawled out of....

Namaste

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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 07:42 AM
Response to Original message
45. Bush is channeling another Caesar
Gaius Caesar Augustus Germanicus did not care for the legions, although they'd given his nickname: Caligula.

We surely must see the Republic restored.



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DiverDave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 08:03 AM
Response to Original message
47. Those guys that did this should be court martialed
When I was in the army we were told that we were obligated to question illegal orders. This was a direct result of cally and his war crimes in Mei Lai <sp?>
This is a case where someone, ANYONE should have stood up for the honor of the army, and by extension, all of us.
I haven't heard any evidence that this happened...has anyone else?
Rat bastards, all of them.
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Pachamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #47
53. ...and have a dose of their own version of US hospitality?
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DiverDave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #53
56. Welcome to DU!!
eom
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Pachamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #56
69. Happy to have joined the underground
:)
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Nay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #47
55. Yes, there were 3 or 4 young men who blew the whistle on this...
read it last night here. They were sickened, and weren't getting any satisfaction from their immediate supervisors, so they went higher. They all should get medals and promotions, but as long as * is in charge, they'll be lucky to escape with their lives.
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UrbScotty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 08:43 AM
Response to Original message
51. Are you blaming the ENTIRE Army?
Or just the people (a very small minority) who did this?
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #51
59. (a very small minority)
is denial.

The problem is SYSTEMIC.
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snowFLAKE Donating Member (247 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #59
62. Exactly, perhaps the old lawyers adage applies . . . .
it's the 95% who spoil it for everybody?
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MadProphetMargin Donating Member (756 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-09-04 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #51
75. I am blaming both the soldiers who did this, and the administration that
allowed/encouraged it.

Despite the fact that they ARE a tiny minority, they have shamed not only themselves, but the army itself...as well as America in general.
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vetwife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 09:24 AM
Response to Original message
57. My take and it really bothered me .......
Being a veterans advocate and married to a disabled combat vet, this thing did a number on me. I have fought for the plight of the veterans for years and still will, but was having problems with this whole rape and abuse. I sat down in tears with my husband, who had seved with 101st Airborne.Special Forces in Vietnam who is 100 percent disabled now...From PTSD and Agent orange.
I said, Did you your group do any of these thing. He paused and a tear ran down his face. He said, "I personally do not remember taking part in these autrocities. But, saying that, this happens in any war. ANY WAR. They program you to do things and feel or rather not feel things. To look at the enemy as not human. He said, "Why do you think vets come home all messed up and what did you think we meant and even you meant when you talk about the horrors of war?
We come back into society not fitting in anywhere and many commit suicide and some just simply go insane or likeme, he said spend years and years on a mental war for what they told us to do or would shoot us or frag us. They are lying when they say, this is isolated and they are lying about saying they don't isolate you for 9 weeks saying Kill Kill Kill, day in an day out during basic and AIT Training. You know I am still in terapy and always will be. I will never sleep again. I will never know peace like many who can sleep all night without sceraming or hearing mortars. They really program you and then you spend the rest of your life trying to deprogram. He got angry again, saying, How dare Rummy say this is right and wrong and not programmed. I know better.
I said, "Why rape"? He said, I can't answer that. I never took part in that. I knew some who did. Same as Kerry said, I knew sme that really cut off the ears and all and I would vomit. He said, Killing Machines and they go off like monsters in wierd ways. You don't feel, and there are drugs involved too. I said, you mean illegal. He said no. You have no idea what they are giving you, calling it anti malaria or Anthrax, in this case, or what? But from the day you go into you war, you are screwed, if you are in combat.
And that is why I am so opposed to war and the service. Its a blender thing emotionally. You feel proud to have worn the uniform in one sense, then you burn it or do like me and Kerry and throw away the medals and I would move before I let any one of our kids go in the military. there is no Glory in war and only horror. They can say till the cows come home they are doing great things for the Iraqi people. Wrong. They are doing harm. Rape, murder, pillage, and its all what Kerry said. Programmed into you. Some are luckier than others and never abuse the enemy...they just kill them, thinking they are right. Its wrong and they will live with this for the rest of their lives but unless one enjoys this sport, one knows the government is really behind the scene teaching and telling you. Its following orders. He said, I had so many article 15's for insubordination after I went to Germany, I nearly got kicked out. Its wrong and we were all pawns. From the beginning of war until now, its just now, they can video it and take pictures.and release them in a matter of seconds. Its always happened. Then he went to bed and was sick.

The truth...Those people who did this probably are sick with something...they have lost their way and it was the government who put them there. They were probably just young kids with a life before they were given shots, and pills and doing what they were told trying to survive. Who knows what they were told. They would do it or have it done to them? Who knows? Are they wrong..Yes. Did it happen in every war..Listen to Kerry..Yes...Will the government get away with it...Yes....the true criminals like CEO's never get brought to justice.

I said, So why did Kerry vote for the war. He said, "Listen close to Kerry. He never ever said go in. He said, Enforce the resolution and keep the Un inspectors in and go to war as a last resort. He and we were lied to again saying we were in imminent danger. The neocon chickenhawks and Powell presented an argument that we were in danger and Kerry said, As a last resort to save American lives. That is where people are getting confused. He was lied to like the rest of us. Of course we were never for the war but we were not representing any people who you are supposed to do their bidding for them. He didn't want this war, that I am sure of. The people in his district wanted him to vote that way. I am sure he struggled. He knew what they were gonna do with the money as as a protest, he voted against the 87 Billion. then he said, You kow Kerry and McCain ain't sleeping too good these days, just like the rest of we combat vets. I said, Would you have voted for the war. He said, I wouldn't be in the government to begin with.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #57
58. Thanks very much for your post. I knew a lot of guys who came home...
...from Vietnam as permanently damaged goods...they'll never again be the carefree happy people I knew in high school. I know at least one guy has committed suicide.

I also met quite a few guys while I was in the service who told me point-blank that because of their service in Vietnam they had lost families and past relationships. Most told me that the civilian world was safe as long as they stayed in the service.

Two people told me of participating in the rape and murder of female Viet Cong suspects...and these two were clearly people that you did NOT want to cross.

I knew one guy that had been involved in Operation Phoenix...he told me all about what could be done with a K-Bar and the flesh just above the cheekbone to make prisoners tell you anything. He also told me about "helicopter rides" involving the one-way transport of one or more bound prisoners. The idea was to throw out prisoners until their target was ready to talk...and then throw him out, too.

Another guy told me about shooting enemy wounded after combat. Even prisoners were shot if it was believed that they would slow down the movements of their unit.

I personally worked for a Marine Corps captain at Camp Pendleton, CA, that used to get so buzzed up on alcohol and pot that he would dress in fatigues, smear on the cammy paint, get his NVA rifle that he had captured, and go "on patrol" by low-crawling all night around his neighborhood in base housing. You learned not to approach him if he was passed out...just shake his foot and step back.

I never experienced any of the stuff that drove all of these people crazy in different ways, but having talked with them extensively, I got a glimpse into their private corner of Hell. The folks in Iraq are going to be affected just as bad, if not worse.
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chookie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 10:51 AM
Response to Original message
60. There are two remaining options:
The disclosure of torture in Abu Ghraib made an already impossible war far, far worse.

No amount of apologies or reparations will suffice: there is but one remedy to humilation in the honor based societies of the Middle East -- and that is violent revenge. We will see escalation of violence not only in Iraq, but throughout the world, directed at Americans

Given that Bush has completely bankrupted American prestige and moral authority -- the only thing he has left to play is the use of unbridled destructive force abroad, and repression at home.

There is but one other option: take it upon ourselves to avenge the Iraqis by impeaching Bush et al and indicting him for war crimes.

I say that not as an opponent of Bush, but as a dispassionate strategist. I hope there are sane Republicans who can also see that it is the only way.

We know they will not give up their power, and that the positive initative of impeachment will not be taken. That's too bad -- because without it, there is nothing in our future except war and chaos. I have always suspected that they would destroy our nation before they would relinquish power over it -- and I think we are going to see that destruction unfold before our eyes, slowly, painfully, relentlessly.
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the_real_38 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
64. Congratulations!
One more has seen the truth - the fact is, that the media and the bush administration are trying to militarize our society, to prepare us for perpetual warfare. Half a trillion dollars is now being spent on the military and war per year.

The time has come to find solutions to our problems that don't entail this huge waste of time and lives, that don't involve troops in the first place.

If you support the troops, like it or not you're supporting the policies they fight for, and those policies are wrong. I do not support the troops.
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Pachamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #64
70. Imagine the $$$'s being spent on really helping the world...
...versus bombing then....Wow, we might have friends instead of enemies...

I think Bush, Rummy et al were the mean kids on the playground that didn't know how to play nice...problem is they are now teaching ours and the world's children that that is how to only play...

Mean people really do suck...
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MadProphetMargin Donating Member (756 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-09-04 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #70
77. Here is where logic fails.
...versus bombing then....Wow, we might have friends instead of enemies...


The neocons don't WANT friends. If they can convince us to adopt a "bunker mentality", then they will have increased their hold on power by 100 fold.
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MadProphetMargin Donating Member (756 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-09-04 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #64
76. Not exactly true...there are different means of "supporting the troops"...
...I say we "support them" by BRINGING THEM HOME. Is that supporting the neocon agenda?
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-09-04 01:06 AM
Response to Original message
78. No, you were right, MPM
The root cause of the abuse is the leadership, who created the environment which would inevitably lead to the torture and abuse.

- Bush's "with us or with the terrorists"

- classify many prisoners as "outside Geneva conventions"

- insufficient force levels for occupation


The soldiers are at fault, but I blame incompetent/negligent leadership -- at the top.
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MadProphetMargin Donating Member (756 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-09-04 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #78
79. Orders are no excuse. The individual is responsible for their actions.
There are no exceptions to this, provided the individual is in control of their faculties.

This includes the soldiers that committed these atrocities, their officers, and good old Rummy, who knew about it for months.
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