American Torturers Should Have to Face an Iraqi Criminal Court

[JCMach1]

If there is to be something like justice, they need to be prosecuted and have a trial in Iraqi courts.

That would send a powerful message to the world and to the U.S. soldiers.

We already know from the GITMO investigations that the military DOESN'T take proceedings like these very seriously.

In addition to their court martial, they should be turned over to the civilian courts.

[bluestateguy]

1. Or we could turn them over to Syria

Just kidding...sort of.

[Eric J in MN]

2. especially the civilians involved should be tried by Iraqis

I made a list of 12 things which should happen regarding the torture, at:

http://www.moveleft.com/moveleft_essay_2004_05_09_if_bush_were_truly_sorry_about_the_prisoners_in_iraq.asp

[JCMach1]

4. nice essay, i just added a link in my website

:)

[Eric J in MN]

11. Thank you (nt)

nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. Not quite an Iraqi Court

A special Tribunal for WarCrimes, a la Rwanda or Bosnia.

This has to be done by International Judges

This has to be done in the United States, PRE-EMPTING ALL PROGRAMING, so the people of this country are FORCED to face
the demons... and under the standards of International Law

The only thing is, unlike Nuremberg, they will not face the Death
Penalty, but all have to be on the docket, and I do not mean the E-2, I mean the 0-9 and Civilian leaders.... an E-2 even though she knows or should have known that this was wrong, those over her, are far more responsible for ENCOURAGING this. Not to excuse the Privates but the Generals will walk while we hang the privates...

[JCMach1]

5. this is also about sovreignty... they need to have a trial in Iraq

...

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. As an occupying power this technically happened

under the sovereignty of the United States... we are the occupyimng power

This is why this goes beyond Iraq and rises to the level of a War Crime and Crimes Against Humanity, the real of those crimes is not a national court, but an International Court.

I am sorry, but I actually have a clue how this works. Iraqis have no sovereignty right now (and why Bush turned this into a lawless land with executive order 133-13). Hence this rises above one nation, or two, Iraq and the United States.

Why do you think Bush REFUSED to sign the International Court protocols? He thought that this way he coudl escape this... well not really... it only makes bringing charges a tad more difficult as an International Special Tribunal for the United States must be formed... my personal preference, an Internaitonal Military Tribunal, which at that moment can and SHOULD include an Iraqi judge...

See Nuremberg for an example, and the actual precedent

[JCMach1]

18. if the U.S. is the legal occupying power, then should they also be

prosecuted under Federal Law?

that would seem to follow...

Not JUST a court martial...

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. Yes

when we signed the Geneva Convention that became the law of hte land

US Constitution... purely

The UCMJ was designed to meet or supercede the Geneva Convention

There are cases that Federal Law supercedes the UCMJ and in case of the Mercenaries, the Feds theoretically have jurisdiction

BUT... here is the catch... it will depends on what happens at the USSC over the Guantamo case.

By the way I am no lawyer but I have taken steps such as writing amicus briefs to the USSC over Camp X-Ray... used to work for a national Red Cross Society... I do have a clue how this works...

[JCMach1]

22. Don't want to split legal hairs...

But were the victims 'enemy combatants'?

Also, I there MAY be a distinction between the legal status of Guananamo and Iraq...

Also, is there not an effect of not having a REAL declaration of War in Iraq?

Let's hope the military courts do their job...

However, I don't trust it...

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. When this is all said and done

I suspect this is going to end in a Special International Tribunal
for the United States...

I may add this is just the begining of an F-5 storm

Now to Guantamo, you may remember or not, the argument, weak at best, that the administration made that the Camp X-Ray detainees were Enemy Combatants, (and most were). This means they have somewhat less rights than a POW

But here is where things get bad. According to the Conventions of War before we move anybody anywhere, we must have hearings to determine the status of a prisoner as one of the following


POW (Full rights under the Geneva Convention, including not anwering questins beyond name, rank, serial number place and date of birth, for registration at Geneva) Oh this means rights to mail from family, care packages from the red cross and family, visitations from the ICRC, and full contact with the family.

Enemy Comatatant, less rights, but still HUMANE treatment is required.. oh and this includes visitations by the ICRC, and those combatants have to have their status as liable to a trial or not in a speedy manner, the administration is still draging feet.

None of the above, to be released ex post facto

The fourth category is for criminals which are housed in separate facilites, liable to either local law (which as an occupying power we have to allow) or if unavailable, special military courts, using local codes.

These hearings were not carried out in Afthanistan or for that matter in Iraq.


When all is said and done this country will go through a national trauma of unprecedented proportions and we are entering unknown legal territory... after all what do you do wiht a President who is truly liable to an Internatioal Trial?

Since Bush has not acted with any leadership, our options are fast closing as well, and Nato's refusal to even consider talking to us until after November is telling... we are quickly becoming a Rogue State.

[JCMach1]

24. You are right on with your analysis

New cans of worms are going to reopen:

Mazar-i-Sharif...
Guantanamo treatment...
Much more abuse by soldiers in Iraq (not just prison workers and intelligence types)...

And depending on what the Supreme Court rules in relation to Guantanamo... there can be a WHOLE BOATLOAD of U.S. civil actions.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. The USSC has few choices right now

but given the taquba report we may be forced (from Rummy's POV bad thing) to release most of the Camp X-Ray detainess, the few still present must be tried fast,as the codes require... and yes some are pretty bad apples, but most are not.. or were not, given what we did... we have to pay REPARATIONS... which implies aknowledging War Crimes on our part.

We have already released a large ammount of people from Abu Ghraib, but again Reparations will have to be paid... and this again aknowledges war crimes, hence why Rumsfeld was so careful Friday... if he had aknowledged reparations, we would have entered a whole new ball game at that moment.

But still the next month or so will see where this goes, but Solicitor General Olson has now lost a lot of his case with the USSC, and how we respond will determine where we go, and who ends up trying what

For the moment the Army is trying to blame some bad apples for all of this... war crimes NEVER occur in the vaccuum and this is coming from the statements from those at the top.

Hell Friday some of the statements from Rummy were reminiscent of Nuremberg, and a modified Nuremberg defense, hwo did you expect me to know? Goering refused to aknowledge the camps as well, he did not have time to know, how could he? As a child of a holocaust survivor this was not shocking, but then again I have, as a red cross worker, heard enough stories from victims of torture over the years... which will go to the grave with me.

Another clue as to how serious this is... if you read the sections of the Red Cross Report given to the press... that is the kind of evidence they have been gathering at the Hague... so we will see whether our USSC puts the country ahead of BushCo...

Welcome to the perfect storm... if I had ever seen one...

Ah the Chinese course, may you live in interesting times...

[Eric J in MN]

14. Doesn't the Hague usually have the war crimes tribunals? nt

nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. Yes, see above

[Ladyhawk]

21. I agree with you.

I am against the death penalty, even when it concerns the torturers in question. They probably would not get a fair trial in Iraq or the United States. An Iraqi court would be too harsh. An American court would be too lenient.

Like you said, these people need to be tried internationally. If convicted, they need to do be dishonorably discharged and do a fair amount of time in prison, up to and including life, depending upon circumstances. A slap on the wrist just won't do.

[TheWizardOfMudd]

6. Uh . . . No

If you want to turn the rule of law topsy-turvy on its head, okay.

But since there is no country or laws in Iraq, and since military personnel have been subject to the military code since forever, you are way out in left field.

[JCMach1]

8. remember June 30th

Indictments should be handed down July 4!

[TheWizardOfMudd]

25. What Iraqi law?

And what Iraqi criminal court?

They don't exist.

[napi21]

15. But why Americans judging Americans?

I understnad this is the way it's always been, but why not International court?

[TheWizardOfMudd]

26. International law is not adjudicated in an Iraqi criminal court

Focus.

[JCMach1]

19. Not topsy turvy... if we are occupying (sovreign over Iraq)

I would argue U.S. laws could also govern the conduct of such a prosecution... i.e. Federal Laws

[TheWizardOfMudd]

27. The original poster referenced an Iraqi criminal court

No such thing. No such laws. No such judges. No such juries.

Look. American soldiers are governed by the Military Code of Justice.

What is the problem?

[QC]

7. Does that include the White House & Pentagon officials

who authorized all this stuff and pretended not to know about it?

Let's not forget them.

[JCMach1]

9. save the War Crimes tribunal for them...

[napi21]

10. That's an interesting thought! Why hasn't that been

suggested or better yet, ordered, already?

I never thought of it, but that has happened to others in the past, just never Americans.

[TheWizardOfMudd]

28. When and where did this ever happen before?

?

[Erika]

12. No Laws In Iraq?

So how do we lock up Iraqi citizens?

[JCMach1]

13. after June 30th

[TheWizardOfMudd]

30. Iraqis will pass laws June 30 used to prosecute American soldiers?

For acts committed prior to June 30? Um . . . no.

I've got three words for you: Ex Post Facto.

[TheWizardOfMudd]

29. We lock them up at the pleasure of the Bush administration

Indiscriminately and with torture.