First war crimes trial in Iraq will be against an American soldier!

[MoonRiver]

How ironic can it get? I always assumed Saddam would be the first, but its one of our own! Lalalalalalala......

[LittleApple81]

1. Did I hear correctly that it is a black American soldier? Man oh man

these people have no idea of what this is going to look like?

[democratreformed]

2. Are you talking about the court martial?

If so, it was a white guy from PA they were showing this morning.

[LittleApple81]

4. OK. I am glad I did not read correctly. It is not good that ANY soldier

be tried before his/her SUPERIORS are brought to justice, but it were a black soldier to go first it would be even worse.

[democratreformed]

6. I understand.

[mn9driver]

3. It gets better. This is the guy who took the pictures.

We're gonna hammer the schlub who created the evidence that got us caught.

edit--add link:

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20040510_107.html

[democratreformed]

5. Those were my thoughts exactly.

How dare that guy be so stupid??? That seems to be the attitude.

[whistle]

7. That's exactly what Rumsfeld kept hammering at...

...in his responses at the senate hearing last Friday. The problem in Rumsfeld's mind is not there was torture and abuse, but that it was found out!

[Spider Jerusalem]

8. Who is this "us"?

I should think you mean "got THEM caught"...unless you happen to be assigned to a military police company in Iraq, that is...

[mn9driver]

11. Not sure what you're getting at.

The US is the nation that is liberating Iraq through murder, torture and rape. In a sense, we all share collective guilt here.

[Spider Jerusalem]

12. What I'm getting at...

is that the notion of "collective guilt" is as absurd as the notion of "original sin". Guilt belongs properly to those who commit culpable acts.

[mn9driver]

13. Collective guilt is not a religious concept

unlike "original sin", so I don't really see the correlation between the validity of the two.

These charming torturers, rapists and photographers didn't just spring out of the earth spontaneously to commit these acts. They were born here, raised here, educated here, and developed their senses of right and wrong right here in the good old US of A.

They watched TV here, saw movies here, developed their ability to think and ask questions here, recieved guidance and correction from parents and communtity here.

But no, you're right--what they've done has absolutely nothing to do with who we are as a nation. Nothing at all.</sarcasm>

[Spider Jerusalem]

14. Apparently, they developed neither the ability to think...

nor the ability to ask questions; if they had we might not be hearing this news.

And it's completely and utterly foolish to suggest that in a nation of three hundred million people, occupying as much area as all of Europe, the actions of a relatively small group of individuals can be taken as representative of the nation as a whole.

That's a bit like suggesting that the actions and attitudes of Muscovites should be taken as representative of those of Parisians; after all, they're both Europeans. What's the difference?

People are individuals, not groups, and to treat and think of them as groups is not only to commit a grave error, but also to take a step down the road that leads to such wonderful things as racism, nationalism, religious wars, and so on...that would be a good intellectual habit to break yourself of.

[mn9driver]

15. Gotta get to work, but before I go:

"Apparently, they developed neither the ability to think
nor the ability to ask questions; if they had we might not be hearing this news."

Agreed.

"And it's completely and utterly foolish to suggest that in a nation of three hundred million people, occupying as much area as all of Europe, the actions of a relatively small group of individuals can be taken as representative of the nation as a whole."

Tell that to the Germans. Or the Cambodians.

"That's a bit like suggesting that the actions and attitudes of Muscovites should be taken as representative of those of Parisians; after all, they're both Europeans. What's the difference?"

How about language, history, political system, culture, climate and national identity, for starters. The differences between a Californian and a New Yorker are, just maybe, a touch smaller.

"People are individuals, not groups, and to treat and think of them as groups is not only to commit a grave error, but also to take a step down the road that leads to such wonderful things as racism, nationalism, religious wars, and so on...that would be a good intellectual habit to break yourself of.

Actually, they are both individuals and groups and throughout history have acted both as individuals and groups, and will probably continue to do so. It is important to be able to work with both concepts if you want to be able to understand what has happened...and what will happen. I'll keep my intellectual habits. Thanks, though. Enjoyed the exchange.

[Shadder]

9. No, this is ONE of the guys that took the pictures

It's clear that there were at least 4 different sets of photos taken and that's only the ones that we know about so far.

[readmylips]

10. So the bush regime continue to commit crimes...

The first on trail is a lower-class soldier who was following orders. It's funny how his trail will be in public view, yet bush/cheney didn't want to testify before the 911 commission in public view. It seems that this soldier's hide, is damage control for bush's elections. The soldier is from PA, state where bush is not doing well. Hope the soldier's family is all over TV shows in PA.

Sometimes, we dought God's miracles. The outing of these criminal abuses and torture by so called holly US keepers of democracy, is a huge miracle performed by God. Amen