"Bush+Kerry=Same"proponents, how do you convince poor people of color?

[submerged99]

I'll start by saying that I've never voted in my life because I belong to a native nation and felt that it diminished our sovereignty by participating in U.S electoral politics. Bush's reign has convinced me that there is indeed a difference between Democrats and Republicans. I intend to vote this november but I'm curious about the "bush and kerry are the same" arguements when it comes to poor people of color.

Can anyone give me a good argument as to why poor people of color are going to be no better off whether or not Bush or Kerry is elected president? I am not trying to ambush anyone and am sincerely interested in seeing that position articulated. I can say that if 3 more right wingers take seats in the Supreme Court, it's not going to be very helpful for native nations who are facing attacks on our sovereignty from the right.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

1. Of Nader's 2.7% last time I wonder how many were "of color"?

[AgentLadyBug]

2. help my memory - was/is welfare-to-work successful?

... i seem to have the impression that it was/is..... didn't clinton create that program? still think there's no difference between repubs n dems?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

3. By ignoring the question posed to you,

o you believe you've scored a point?

[AgentLadyBug]

6. wow.... my bad i guess....

lol - i meant neither to ignore the question, nor to score a point - lol

(a) my question was genuine - i don't recall the things i claimed not to recall, and was hoping that someone might be able to clarify....

(b) i thought it was on-topic, as i think that a large part of the difference between bush/kerry (derives from)/(is illustrated by) the differences between their respective parties. As a potential example of this latter difference, I sought clarification on the welfare-to-work issue.....

lol - sorry - i'll slink away now....

[Feanorcurufinwe]

8. 'my bad' what does that mean? 'slink away'? what are you talking about?

:wtf:


The question posed was:

Can anyone give me a good argument as to why poor people of color are going to be no better off whether or not Bush or Kerry is elected president?

I guess your response:

help my memory - was/is welfare-to-work successful?

... i seem to have the impression that it was/is..... didn't clinton create that program? still think there's no difference between repubs n dems?


was meant to be an answer, but I don't see this fragment of a sentence attack on Clinton as a real argument. Maybe you could flesh it out a bit, and focus more on the topic of Bush and Kerry and their differences or similarities.

[AgentLadyBug]

9. rofl - i give up - no mas! no mas! \eom

[Feanorcurufinwe]

17. You're not willing or able to engage in a discussion?

Why pretend to participate on a discussion board then?

[submerged99]

4. That's not really what I was looking for.

You're talking about Bill Clinton. I'm asking people to give me an arguement about how John Kerry and George Bush will be equally bad for poor people of color. I could ask them to tell me how they will be equally bad for american indians but I doubt anyone knows much about their policies in indian country.

Once again. John Kerry, not Bill Clinton.

[Warpy]

7. Well, chances are that neither will be good for

...poor folks or people of color. However, that doesn't mean there isn't a huge difference between them, namely that Bush is insane and fronting for the worst group of corporate thieves and policy wack jobs the world has seen since the Nazis were defeated.

We can survive 4 years of business as usual under Kerry. We can't survive four years of warmongering, economic bungling, increasing isolation in the world as allies give up on us, and a "vision thing" that hinges on creating the Apocalypse.

[SemperEadem]

16. non sequitur to the question asked

it was about Kerry and Bush, not Clinton

[GainesT1958]

5. Dub wants to exploit native lands to help his oil and mining buds...

Line their pockets, while the tribes who own the land get virtually NOTHING...save for pollution and other spoiling of their lands.

In addition, his tax cuts for the wealthiest are done at the expense of those living on 80% or less of the median income, which many on tribal lands are...

Also, under Dub, HUD is drastically cutting Section 8 housing vouchers, which will also affect those on or adjacent to tribal lands.


John Kerry would protect the environment, and would not allow mining and oil companies to have a "bargain sale" for drilling and mining rights on tribal land. Moreover, he would encourage greater economic development on tribal lands AFTER consulting with tribal leaders about the type of development their people want--and need--most.

Those are but some of the reasons; many others are the same reasons other Americans are being screwed over by Dub & Co.

I think it's GREAT that you're voting for the first time in a Federal election this November, and that you're trying to convince others in your tribe to vote for Kerry!:D

B-)

[sandnsea]

10. I beg you to just help us

We have to get rid of this monster. I can't answer anything about whether anything will be better for natives under Kerry or not. I kind of think they will, but we've got to get Bush out. I am feeling rather desperate today. Just help us get him out.

You can see what you think of this:

http://www.johnkerry.com/communities/nativeamericans/

[submerged99]

11. sure. That's what I plan on doing.

I was having this discussion with a friend and he is lukewarm on Kerry because he thinks Kerry doesn't seperate himself enough from Bush. For me, that isn't a good enough reason NOT TO VOTE.

This is the way I look at it. I know Kerry isn't the answer to all of our problems and he may even oppose some of our work. However, I view him as a possible ally and a possible opponent. If Kerry is an opponent at times, I believe he is open to our views. I dont view Bush as either an ally or an opponent. I view him as an ENEMY to our people.

For those ndns that disdain voting, I'll just put it to them like this. What administration would you rather deal with for the next 4 years..Bush or Kerry? That should settle it.

[Servo300]

12. people of what color?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

13. non-white

pick any one.

[Jacobin]

14. People of color are always first to be drafted

Those people and rural folks.

They were killed at a much higher rate during Vietnam.

The draft will be reinstated July of 2005 under bush*

Tell all the mothers and fathers.

[pop goes the weasel]

15. Argue from your heart

I appreciate your symbolic rejection of US dominion over your nation, and am grateful that you have decided that the current crisis requires a different approach. At the very least, I think that the US should devolve power to the native nations, similar to the way the English have begun devolving power to Scotland and Wales. Getting such a thing is a long shot, but I think that the chances are better with Democrats in federal position than with Republicans.

And there are so many immediately reasons to vote for the Democrats. Like you said, there's the Supreme Court issue. There's the threat of the draft. There's the repudiation of human rights by the Republicans, and the crying need to hold the leadership accountable for crimes against humanity. On that one, I think that the First Nations can speak with the greatest authority.

If you just share what is in your own heart, I am sure you will sway many.

[FDRrocks]

18. I can't...

Both parties are friendlier, economically speaking, to the big guys. The Democrats maybe to a lesser extent, but not enough.

I'm glad you'll vote for Kerry though. He is a strong moderate and hopefully the Democratic party will be able to change itself for the better in the ensuiing 8 years that it will hold the White House (at least, I truely think Bush has screwed the Republican party for a while)... b/c they have some slack to pick up on the left.

[scarletwoman]

19. The best argument I've seen is Granny D's:

"When we have reasonable people in power, let us start our arguments again, for we can not move forward unless we have a decent government underneath us and a Bill of Rights to let us speak freely."

(read her whole piece here: http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=15789 )

I readily admit that I do not feel particularily inspired by Kerry -- but I DO feel extremely inspired to get rid of bush* and his criminal cabal.

The national Democratic party, by in large, is way too beholden to the corporate powers-that-be, imho, BUT they have not been overtaken by the religious zealots and bigots as has the Republican party.

This is a very important distinction. There are still rational minds within the Democratic party, and for all their serving the interests of the moneyed elite, there remains at least some traditional sense of "noblesse oblige" -- that is, the idea that those who have much have SOME responsibility toward those who have little.

This is my argument for those who would turn away from voting altogether, or would vote third party: Kerry is simply the tool we have at hand to evict the bush maladministration. He's our crowbar, he's simply the necessary first step in what has to be a very long and involved struggle to bring this country into sanity.

He is "reasonable", as Granny D says. He is not insane. That's an important starting point. We cannot get to where we would like to go without taking the first step in that direction.

There's alot more I'd like to say. Although a non-native myself, I have been involved in native political issues for a number of years through personal relationships with tribal members in my area. In the 2002 election I worked with the local band members to register new voters, and will be working again to get out the vote on the local rez this year.

I would REALLY appreciate hearing more of your thoughts here!

sw