do you really think voting will make these monsters go away?

[mopaul]

i don't. we tried that remember, didn't work. the tired old mantra, 'we'll vote the bastards out in november' gives me no comfort. even if our guy did win, they'd still be there, waiting to attack and foment more unrest in the world for him to deal with.
they will be a constant irritant, and will cobble and annoy him for the whole term, as they did to Bill.

we had better be thinking ahead, if we win or not this november. during the whole of Clinton's tenure, they fumed and spat and longed for the day when they'd get TOTAL control of the ship and run it straiht into an iceberg. we had better be thinking of something BESIDES merely voting, on one day in november.

like what? anything and everything, mobilize, organize, focus, give it back as good as you get it to the hypnotized, yell, write, pray, donate, march, whatever the hell it takes, because these men will not just go away with a handshake.

they fought hard to get where they are, decades of planning and deciet, and they are not going to easily give it up. voting is a good thing, but it's not gonna be our saving grace.

[burythehatchet]

1. I could not agree more

This is a defining moment for our generation.

[afraid_of_the_dark]

2. I don't think of it as a "saving grace"...

It's really more like voting for the lesser of two evils. It's sad, but I don't think that anyone who should be president (who's honest, hardworking, invested in the people) could ever manage to get elected. But rather than bathe in apathy, I try to do what little I can to make the country a little better. And right now, that means I'm voting ABB.

[Sperk]

3. Yup, convinced that they will steal the election (AGAIN)

The only thing that's going to keep me from jumping out a window on election night is that I know in my gut Smirky will be sorry he got away with it. He'll eventually will wish he cut his losses and went back to the ranch.

These people (political mafia) are very much like abusive spouses. They NEVER get away with enough. NEVER. I predict MASSIVE demonstrations in the coming years, so massive that even the media cannot cover up!

In the long run, it will be beneficial to the country. If Idiot Boy merely lost the election, Mo Paul is
right, they would be working in the shadows with one scheme after another. Better to have them fully exposed for what they are, even if it is initially very painful and damaging to the people.

[rocktivity]

4. Our work will only begin in November

Once we get them out of the White House, the next step is to get them into the "big" house!

:headbang:
rocknation

[BiggJawn]

8. Yes, Prison for all of them!

And then, I suggest a PURGE of the ReTHUGlican Party. If Germany could rightfully outlaw the Nazi party after WWII, then why not the same for the ReTHUGlican party? Out with the Neo-Cons, out with the Promise-Keepers...

Does Rove and Co. have to kill 6,000,000 before people start coming on-board with this?

I heard a soundbite today where Rumsferatu claims that his troops killed almost 3,000 Iraqi "insurgents" in a 3-week period. Those are just the ones they TOLD us about!

[bryant69]

10. Interesting

But who would you disenfranchise? All Republicans? All people who vote for Bush this year? All who voted for him in 2,000? Or just the leaders? Or what?

Or are we just going to outlaw the Republican party. An elegant solution, as the two parts of it will naturally gravitate to the Libertarian or the Constitution party which will split the party.

Kind of a dangerous precedent though don't you think? I mean once we start punishing people for their political persuasion might that go to far?

There's a question I like to ask whenever a new governmental power is proposed. Since we're liberals I'll ask it this way "Would you feel comfortable if Karl Rove had his finger on the trigger of that program?" (In case you are wondering, for my republican friends I substitute Hillary Clinton in for Karl Rove).

I guess what I'm saying is that I disagree with this proposal.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[BiggJawn]

23. OK, then disagree.

I'm cool with that.

Guess that's the "price we pay for Freedom", isn't it? Allowing a political party that would end most those freedoms to further their goals to exist.

Perhaps just purging the leadership would work. Isn't that what most organizations try first when they have been taken the wrong direction?
The problem with that, IMO, is the ReTHUGlican rank and file is just as nasty and corrupt as their leadership. At least the ones who aren't just hate-regurgitating Ditto-Monkeys, anyway....

[DrBB]

5. You speak my own thoughts

Events and policies and bureaucracies have their own inertia. People have a stake in things. The public gets accustomed to certain norms. Money is still money, and Big Money owns Big Media, and has its own Big Interests.

Think Faux News is going to do the same "patriotic" thing for a President Kerry (or any Dem, ever) that it has done for Bush? Think a President Kerry will get a "honeymoon" period like Bush got? Remember Clinton's? I think it lasted about 24 hours, and that was 12 years back down the spiral of Rat Wing Media Consolidation.

I take hope only in this--and it's very much a longterm, not short-term hope--that a lot of people in the center as well as the left are aware of how successful the Reichpublicans have been in equating journalism with GOPropaganda, and are determined to form structures to combat this development.

But I don't expect a Kerry victory to be a sudden renaissance of progressivism. He'll be lucky to survive the massive onslaught of day to day smears and "investigations" the vindictive and powerful and wealthy are storing up for him.

[kath]

26. Clinton got NO honeymoon whatsoever.

The bastards were going after him well before he was inaugurated.

[mopaul]

27. the attacked him before he was even officially a candidate

it was their only agenda, cripple and politically assasinate clinton so that we can set up our terrorist agenda behind the scenes.

bill still managed to be a good president, with all the attacks. bush would've crumbled under such a constant unrelenting attac

[Az]

6. Its not just the monsters

This problem is deeper than that. That there is an audience receptive to these monsters is the problem in and of itself. The monsters got where they are because they rejuvinated an ancient mindset in the people. They nourished its hatred of modern society. When George and company fall the mob will still be there. Still be firm in their belief that they are right and everyone else is wrong. Still confident in their right to force their will on others. Still fighting the Crusades from 100s of years ago.

[TahitiNut]

7. Taking too little antibiotics just makes the remaining bacteria ...

... that much stonger. We've been breeding democracy-resistant fascists in this country for decades and they've become particularly virulent.

[Az]

9. This is the failing of the Post Modern Society

It cannot purge itself of truly destructive strains of culture. The initial shock of diversity may stun them or even weaken them. But eventually they come back and even learn to use Post Modernisms own tools against it.

[Mr_Scarecrow]

11. Yes I can see it now

The day after the election. Someone will litter on the Capitol steps. The Reich will blame Kerry. They will be in full impeach mode.

[demnan]

12. I remember reading something about the fundies

back in the 70s that should be a lesson for us.

They organized from the bottom up. They started at the school board, then they ran for city council, then state senator. All of a sudden they controlled the schools and they decided what was going to be put in the school texts. While liberals slept or dreamed of larger issues, they were organizing behind fundie Congressmen.

The left wing doesn't focus enough on local politics and small issues. Look at this board. Compare all the posts on the Presidential race and lack of focus on the local issues. Sure there are exceptions but our focus and our dreams have always been big. We need to get involved with local issues.

I'm going to do this myself this year so I encourage you all to do the same: I'm going to become involved in a local county-wide issue and I'm going to put my energies in a local Democratic candidate this year.

[bryant69]

13. Yes but

The election provides a convienent and useful focus / teaching tool over the next several months. It's a concrete event, as opposed to some nebulous goals about peace or justice or something.

We can use it to get people focused on the essential differences between the Liberal / Progressive vision of America and the Neo-Conservative view of America. I will admit that if this election boils down to, "Well I guess I like Kerry's hair a little more" than it will be meaningless. On the other hand, if we take the time inbetween now and then to make sure people understand the differences between the two, than it can be an important first step towards getting our country back on the right track.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Tyler Durden]

14. There won't be any peace or rest until EVERY Nazi DIES.

(Hey Agent Mike! That does not advocate violence against anyone in any way, shape, or form. NEENERNEENERNEENER.)

Sorry, Mo. We crossed a Rubicon years ago, and there is no turning back. We THINK that Nixon was the "sea change," but that was like squeezing a zit when the leg has gas gangrene.

The "New World" will give way to the "New Europe." If it doesn't, it will slide into decline anyway, just in a more obscenely violent fashion.

Don't let it bring you down too much. Everything is born, lives, and dies; countries and political systems are not exempt. Maybe it's just time to write the living will for when the country goes into irreverseable coma.

[Paradise]

15. it will take decades, if ever.

when was the last time we (both sides) didn't feel this way? it all started with the neocons' obsessive, and obscene hatred of clinton, and the bushes not getting their way when clinton was elected. to me, it all revolves around the bushes. they have been the most divisive factions since the civil war, and the damage is widespread and deep. i, for one, don't remember anything like this before vater bush lost re-election. think back. :think: am i mistaken? :shrug:

[Tyler Durden]

16. Nope. They ALWAYS hated us.

It's just not fashionable to use firehoses and tear gas anymore.

They minimize dissent with their "The Grownups are in charge now" attitude, which begs a "Have you stopped beating your wife: yes or no?" question.

If you're up against children, then nothing they say that disputes your opinion is valid: THAT is at the core of the Neocon ethos (and I use the term "ethos" lightly).

[Paradise]

24. :) oh, i feel better now! :)

just kidding :)

[Az]

17. It started before that

It started over 500 years ago. This is just a continuing dance. The most recent new refrain in the music was set in motion by the downfall of Nixon. The Republican party went into full damage control mode. Never again would they allow a rogue element like Nixon to take charge of the direction of the party. Thus they set about recreating the right and finding new allies. They found it in the form of the religious right.

The religious right carried with it a sense of moral authority brought from a time when Churchs ruled the western world. 500 years ago the age of enlightenment cleaved the Churchs from their hold on power. They were seperated from the state. Initially it was a small breech but it came into full expression in the Constitution of the United States.

Once the People stepped forward and demanded that they alone could determine the moral path their laws would take the churchs have sought a path back into control. Their institutions were created over a 1500 year period and did not go gently into that night. They are still with us and still promoting their place as the sole arbiter of morality.

It was the descendants of this history that the right appealed to. They found themself assailed by a rapidly changing society and the increasing pressures of science. They desperately wanted to control this "progress" and quickly tied their fate to the right. Sharing a contempt for a strong central government that they could not control they joined forces with the economic oriented Corpratists and sought to bring down the very thing they both believed oprressed them.

[mopaul]

18. we make jokes & all, but the relig. right is seriously unstable now

they are going into full defensive attack mode. they see it all slipping away after decades of hard work and they will not go away gently. they are very, very dangerous, and they will take us all down to hell with them

[Paradise]

22. you're correct, it's just that it's been so PROGRESSIVELY OPPRESSIVE

that, for me, the past seemed regressively milder.

[Baltimoreboy]

29. I don't know when it started

But some of the neocon hate extends back past the "Republican Revolution" that brought in the bomb thrower Gingrich.

The Republicans in the House had long been angry at being treated as second-class citizens.

And if you go back further than that, I'm sure there is some cause.

How we got here could be debated till we're all grandparents. I guess the better question is where do we go now.

[Paradise]

33. i had heard that this scenario was reversed in the past,

but ENOUGH already. we have been dangerously divided as a people, and that makes us weak, and vulnerable. no one, and nothing, that exists now, seems to be able to unite us, and, divided, we will surely fall. the hatred each side has toward the other is visceral. i've never experienced anything like this, in my lifetime, having always voted for the person not the party. we desperately need a uniter, and john f. kerry had better win, and had better be that unifier! if/when he wins, we MUST continue to participate in our government, we MUST hold his feet to the fire, and we MUST stay involved. it's way past time for the return of civility, and unity. a new, healthy leadership for us, and for the world, a separation of church, and state, and a non-ideological supreme court would be a good start. :nopity: :)

[KittyWampus]

19. The Only Way To Dispel Monsters Is To Shine The Light Of Truth On Them

and expose the mundane reality underneath their supposedly frightening appearances.

In a way, it is all so laughable.

Thank God for Black Humor and people who understand it.

[KharmaTrain]

20. Go Away? No...Marginalize, Yes!

Right now we have to get these destructive bastards out of the levers of real power...military, treasury, judiciary and this means winning both the executive and at least one branch of the legislative.

This, I predict, would set into motion some of the nastiest Repugnican blood-letting we've ever witnessed as the right wing gets the wrath of the party on the whole for losing, and then the blame games associated with that loss. The PNACers and Bushitas will go into hiding...protected by their last minute pardons, to worm their way back into cozy lobbying and corporate jobs. But at least they won't be sending our kids off to war.

A Kerry win isn't the end-all/do-all. There's a huge mess to clean up here and Democrats are yet to agree on which mess, other than beating Bunnypants, is the first priority. Hopefully Kerry will lay out the agenda in months to come (no need to now while the shit is still piling deep) and then we'll see how solid we are in national interests vs. personal ones.

The Right won't die or go away. There'll still be hate radio for years to come and the GOOP has deep pockets that ensure its survival. There are too many wingnuts out there to expect them to do more than shut-up for a couple months and then go back to sniping from the back benches.

During the Raygun years, it was Democrat control of the House that prevented a total Right Wing runamok...like we've seen the past 3 years. During Clinton, when he lost the House, that's when his real troubles began. Imagine how things would have been far better without the Gingrich-led sabotage. That's why winning the House is so vital this fall.

[Jose Diablo]

21. I don't think they will leave voluntarily

either the election will be rigged, or postponed because of marshal law.

It will get very bad I think. The citizens may have to exercise the 2nd amendment to reconfirm the constitution and expunge the interlopers from all three of the branches.

[RedEagle]

25. It Is The Beginning

We have to keep cleaning up the system, little by little.

Get real people in office, get corporate control out.

Public support of campaigns through state programs, without ANY other form of campaign money, would allow individuals besides the wealthy or their pawns to run for office.

On thing for sure- you'd find out fast who has the capability to work within a budget, who planned the best, who would work the hardest.

Clean up the election system and keep working at it, we have a chance.

Beyond that, getting rid of entitlements to legislators would make the job less "rewarding" to those who see a gravy train to ride.

Why should a congressman get paid so much more than a soldier putting their life on the line for their country? Why should a congressman receive better treatment after serving in office than our veterans? Perhaps running for office should be part of the National Service idea.

Imagine that, PEOPLE involved in government, not just the elite we have now, by and large.

[mac56]

28. It's like exterminating cockroaches.

Naturally you don't get the whole infestation at once. Patience, persistence, perseverance.

[mopaul]

30. 3 words w can't pronounce .....n/t

[Az]

32. Actually they are ideas they have all over us

The religious right are merely the latest form of something that has been part of our society for nearly 2000 years. In their latest form they have created massive grassroots networks of churchs and commitees all dedicated to maintaining control of communities at a local level.

From these local communities they apply pressure to the upper reaches and force the republican party to give them consessions on key issues. In this way they are slowly turning the Repubs from their manipulators to their tool.

Compared to the left they are highly organised. Very committed. And focused in ways we can never be. They are a formiddible opponent. To dismiss them as backwater yocals is merely the first mistake.

[Beam Me Up]

31. No. I do not think voting will make them go away.

I agree we're going to have to organize and mobilize WAY beyond the election--even if Kerry wins.

[Karenina]

34. Honestly, what makes me a bit nervous

is that Americans seem to think the "course of human events" is sitting around going tra-la-la in front of the campfire patiently awaiting the outcome of an "election" scheduled six months hence.

It is a NO BRAINER that the *MIC forces that have perverted the American soul will not go quietly into that dark night. They will NOT CEDE POWER VOLUNTARILY. Elections are small potatoes. They've been rigging them globally for DECADES.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch in the here and now, the world is faced with an unrepentant T-rex that has just lied its way into chewing up Iraq, defying ALL STANDARDS OF HUMAN RESPECT, DECENCY and the RULES we've all agreed on proffering the justification, sand niggers BAD, America GOOD. The only place that stinking pile of shit has any traction is in the U.S.A. Do the math. Then DUCK & COVER!!!