CRAZY TINFOILERS: What am I missing about the Berg beheading?

[stickdog]

1) Fat, white fidgety terra'ists wearing tennis shoes, the leader of which:

a) is wearing the sort of large gold ring that is expressly forbidden in fundy Islamic communities, and

b) starts cutting the head, but is replaced (as the camera time signatures change) by someone wearing a white head covering when it's time to show off the head.

2) Out of synch soundtrack and jumping time signatures on the video production.

3) A supposedly live beheading without any visibly spurting blood.

4) For the first time in recorded history, Arab terra'ists post a video of an atrocious murder on a website -- right in the middle of Bush Admin's most damaging national scandal -- a scandal driven completely by its own disgusting pictoral and video imagery.

5) Berg had been held in US custody (in the Abu Ghraib prison?) for two weeks without charge or access to phones or legal help just days before he was last heard from. And the US now denies this, despite the family's insistence and overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

6) Berg just happened to have an FBI file because he somehow befriended the guy the US government calls 9/11's 20th hijacker.

7) Berg was an American Jew traveling alone in Iraq without a job. He reported that he was taking lots of picture around the suburb of Abu Ghraib.

8) Ugly yellow paint, orange jumpsuits and, yes, white plastic Walmart chairs -- all of which appear in both the Berg video and the Abu Ghraib prison videos.

9) Zaqawi rises from the dead, has a letter fall into coalition hands that just happens to confirm everything BushCo is dreaming about the Iraqi situation, grows another leg, loses his Jordanian accent, puts on a forbidden gold ring, reads from a long speech that he's written in a mysterious mobius fashion across both sides of a single sheet of paper, decides to give up his hobby as a poison expert to get down and dirty with a dull knife, and carefully hides his face while screaming, "Yoo hoo - Zaqawi here!"

Did I miss anything, crazy tinfolers?

[Skip Intro]

1. Hey, you're gonna make us all look like a bunch of crackpots

Can't you just believe what you've been instructed to believe, and knock off the thinking already?

:D

[Beetwasher]

2. The Leader is Also Supposed to be Missing a Leg

n/t

[BlueEyedSon]

4. At the very least. Other reports say he is already dead.

[Tansy_Gold]

134. No one knows for sure.

http://www.nwitimes.com/articles/2004/03/04/roundups/roundups/718cf0522b88399686256e4d0062ef59.txt

<snip>
Abizaid's statement in Washington was the most direct assertion yet by a U.S. official that al-Zarqawi is carrying through on a terrorist campaign inside Iraq, as described in a letter purportedly written by al-Zarqawi and intercepted recently by U.S. intelligence.

A leaflet signed by a dozen alleged insurgent groups, called the letter a forgery and claimed that al-Zarqawi was killed in the Sulaimaniyah mountains of northern Iraq "during the American bombing there."

There was no way to verify the authenticity of the statement, one of many leaflets put out by a variety of groups taking part in the anti-U.S. resistance. A senior U.S. official told The Associated Press that the claim of al-Zarqawi's death was patently false.

The statement did not say when al-Zarqawi was supposedly killed, but U.S. jets bombed strongholds of the extremist Ansar al-Islam in the north last April as Saddam Hussein's regime was collapsing.

<end snip>

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Apr2004/n04132004_200404135.html

<snip>
Zarqawi, a Jordanian national, has a $10 million bounty on his head. He is a convicted terrorist, and has claimed responsibility for numerous acts of terrorism in Iraq. He is believed to be the author of an intercepted letter intended for the highest levels of al Qaeda leadership. The letter provides a blueprint for inciting civil war and promulgating disorder in Iraq to derail progress toward Iraqi sovereignty.
<end snip>

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/04/06/us.zarqawi/index.html
<snip>
A U.S. official said Tuesday that al-Zarqawi traveled to Baghdad in May 2002 for treatment of a leg injury but, contrary to previous reports, appears not to have had a leg amputated. The official would not discuss the reason for the change in assessment.

<end snip>

Now, it might be of some interest that this last snip is from a CNN report dated April 6, 2004 , but of course I'm sure that is of far less significance than the white plastic chair.

Tansy Gold, the unabashedly sarcastic

[BlueEyedSon]

3. Captors allegedly talking between themselves in Russian.....

Leader allegedly flips pages in his prepared speech, always ending up on the same page.....

Signed,
A Crazy Tinfioler.

Hey, it's just stuff I read.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

5. Stuff you forgot.

1) Skull & Bones connection
2) Shroud of Turin
3) Alien abduction
4) Castro & the Mafia
5) The Trilateral Commision
6) Satanic rituals
7) The volcanic theory of dinosaur extincion

[BlueEyedSon]

6. And Evolution

[Skip Intro]

12. See - that's what I don't understand

You're basically saying that to question the bush gang's account of the Berg "event" one might as well believe in alien abductions.

Given the list of suspicious aspects and inconsistencies, and the timing of the event - which does so benefit the regime, and the fact that this gang of thugs can't say good morning without lying - given all this, you equate questioning their story with believing in aliens.

Maybe you could make it clear for me? Explain it to me like you would to a young child, if you would. Why is questioning the "official" version of the Berg "event" akin to believing in aliens?

[CWebster]

21. The fundamental reason is that they have not yet reached

the point where they are willing to accept that their government lies. They are still hanging onto that belief--otherwise all that they've ever been told to believe is shattered and they have a crisis of faith. How do uou think people can believe in the human constructs of religion? It offers security.

Much like what happened in Nazi Germany? How could it happen we wonder in the 20th century? An entire citizenry driven by fear and nationalism. People believed the Nazis and denied any other view as propaganda. In their midst were the camps, and when the allies came in and forced the townpeople through, they claimed "they didn't know".

They didn't know or they didn't want to know in the face of overwhelming evidence?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

27. ::sigh::

>The fundamental reason is that they have not yet reached the point
>where they are willing to accept that their government lies.

See, this is what I object to. I'm damn well aware that our government lies. I'm also well aware that just because the gov't lies, it doesn't make anything you say true either. I don't even object to the consiparacy theorism, really. I object to 50 DAMN THREADS on the same freaking topic. There's nothing wrong with discussing it, but you have to admit that GD of the past three days has become the Berg Decapitation forum.

>They didn't know or they didn't want to know in the face of
>overwhelming evidence?

What evidence? Where? That's the whole thing. Unanswered questions don't constitute evidence. There are lots of unanswered questions. I'm not freaking blind. As for being blind in the face of overwhelming evidence, I could easily say the same things about you - that you're deluding yourself because you can't deal with the truth. I see a bunch of people so blinded by their hate and distrust that they have to concoct fantasies because reality is so goddamn horrible.

All I know is that some guy got his head cut off. I don't know why, or who did it. And I'm not going to go around pretending that I have the answers. All I'm really asking is that y'all please, PLEASE stop starting new threads on this topic every 30 seconds.

[slaveplanet]

28. You're

//What evidence?//

a regular Bulldog Crummond....do not tapes and pictures constitute the very definition of evidence? can you clue me in

[CWebster]

37. New around here, aren't you?

Better get used to some intense scrutiny before getting past it and moving on

[stickdog]

39. Who has said they know who did it other than BushCo, the CIA and the

corporate media?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

73. Lots of people here

are damn sure the CIA did it.

[stickdog]

84. More people here are damn sure whoever the CIA says did it did it.

Which are more foolish?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

88. same.

They're equally foolish, but the ones who think the CIA is right seem to have managed to somehow express their views without starting 75 threads.

[stickdog]

90. Please point out the 75 "CIA did it" threads.

I've seen but a handful. I have a lot of questions about this, and I suspect that we aren't being told the whole story.

"Something is really fishy about this." <> "The CIA did it."

And I can think of at least 15 threads started by people intent on shutting down any and all questioning surrounding this event.

[Eloriel]

64. Just so you know

The only people I've ever heard worry about the left being "blinded by their hate and distrust" of Bush and his whole administration are rightwing talkshow hosts and other propagandists on the right, like some of Congress.

Why would you both BUY that argument and then parrot it?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

71. Oh, so now I'm a freeper, eh?

You guys remind me of the people who say that Clinton was a murdering rapist.

[stickdog]

91. And you remind me of Gomer Pyle.

If you're not just a tad suspicious of everything, you haven't been paying attention.

[Cheswick2.0]

100. Paranoid?

Where did Eloriel say you were a freeper?

[hang a left]

152. If you don't have questions, and your aren't curious why don't

Y'all turn on the TV and watch the news. Or maybe visit the lounge for a little while. I like our threads just fine.

[stickdog]

13. Well, it just goes to show you.

You just can't please every nutcase with a single theory.

Sorry, yibbehobba, but you're a little too far out there for me.

I'm more of a 9/11 timeline type of "conspiracy theorist":

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline

But then again, I'm new to this game. It wasn't until Flight 93 crashed that I even started noticing that the BushCo media was constantly lying to me.

[RobinA]

50. Bermuda Triangle

Vince Foster

[pinniped]

156. No list is complete without..

7> Bigfoot, Yeti, Sasquatch
8> Scott Peterson
9> Jacko
10> Pangaea
11> Double helix
12> neutrino

[Paragon]

7. Do me a favor, stickdog:

Write one of these up for Whitewater, won't you?

There was nothing there, either -- but I betcha one Google search will find some right-wing nut's similar litany of "evidence" about Clinton.

[stickdog]

15. A reverse take on Clinton's penis?

Sorry, but I have no doubt that Clinton did some shady things in his lifetime.

Appoint an attack dog special prosecutor and give his office tens of millions to investigate everything BushCo has ever done, and we'll call it even. OK?

[Dookus]

17. exactly right, Paragon

the same litany of "unanswered questions" is the main argument that the Clintons are criminals, despite the fact that almost every single question has, in fact, been answered.

[stickdog]

25. Bullshit. Not a single one of these questions has been answered.

And, if this holds true to 9-11/Anthrax/Tora Bora (etc) form, none of them ever will be.

[Junkdrawer]

23. Posted in wrong position...

sorry.

[sundancekid]

8. more tinfoiling

9. the military-like stances of the henchmen, and
10.the pet CIA code names for these "contractors?"

But, really now, how many of all these items can truly be of a circumstantial or coincidental nature????

:tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat:

[librechik]

9. with prominently reported facts like those, how can anyone think

the incident is fishy?

It's obviously just a straightforward case of the liberal media putting an anti-Bush interpretation on this incident. Nothing fishy whatsoever.
Like Colbert said on the Daily Show: The facts are biased.

Uh Huh.

You Betcha.

[BlueEyedSon]

10. Number 5 is the one that really bugs me

5) Berg had been held in US custody (in the Abu Ghraib prison?) for two weeks without charge or access to phones or legal help just days before he was last heard from. And the US now denies this, despite the family's insistence and overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

[goodhue]

29. yes, there is much more to unpack regarding number 5

He was detained in Mosul reportedly.
The FBI questioned him at least 3 times.
He was released on April 6, the day after his parents sued Rummy.
Unknown is who held him for 13-days.

[goodhue]

76. Reporter says Berg held in custody entire time by US authorities

The victim: More than work drew him to Iraq — Berg took risks around the world
By John Woestendiek, Scott Calvert and Pat Meisol
Sun Staff
Originally published May 13, 2004

Reporter says Berg held in custody entire time by US authorities

U.S. officials say he was never in the custody of coalition forces. While in Iraqi police custody, they said, he was interviewed three times by FBI agents who were suspicious of his identity and warned that the country was too dangerous for unprotected Americans. He was offered a free flight home, but he declined, officials said.

But Hugo Infante, a Chilean reporter who got to know Berg in Baghdad, told Newsday that Berg recounted that Iraqi police had quickly handed him to U.S authorities in Mosul and that he had been held the entire time in a jail where U.S. soldiers were his guards.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/bal-te.berg13may13,0,1712176.story?coll=bal-nationworld-headlines

[slaveplanet]

11. Yes

9.) we can tell it's a room of some sort, by the existence of a 90 degree inside corner

10.)there is no cove/base in the yellow room which appears to be recently painted- many other pics of AG rooms exist with no Base/cove(electrocution room)

11.) a black tarp is laid out on the floor , it looks as though it stretches right to the wall (see frame 13:48:42), but is pulled away (and torn in one spot) from wall as a result of the struggle revealing what appears to be a cement floor

12.) at very end of video , after arabic chanting is over, very faint western voice can be heard. (thy will be done????) <- this is still extremely speculative at this point.

Western Voice Heard On Nick Berg Videotape
http://www.BreakForNews.com/NickBergEnemiesList.htm
by Fintan Dunne, Editor BreakForNews.com
13th May, 2004 9pmET EXCLUSIVE

[MichaelHarris]

16. Foward, then downward

forward, then downward, forward then downward.

Line from that JFK movie

[SpiralHawk]

22. 13. Totally rad fuzzy focus

I only watched the beginning of the tape, but it was as fuzzily peculiar as anything ever seen on a TV screen.

[slaveplanet]

26. that

//I only watched the beginning of the tape//

about says it all

[SpiralHawk]

41. Says it all?

Well, it says it all about my impression of the first part of the tape. That's all I'm laying claim to, and wondering about.

Are you trying to tell me that the tape got sharper, plainer, and less visually wierd?

Because what I saw -- and I'll assert it again -- merits ranking as #13 - fuzzy image city.

[slaveplanet]

48. If your

No 13 suggestion was meant to add to the serious discourse of this thread then I apologize for the way it may have been worded, and I'll amend my reply to be - Yes it's fuzzy , but not fuzzy enough to obscure crucial clues.

If you were being a sarcastic %*%@ then I stand by my first reply.

#9, 10 & 11 of my post were meant seriously as there was a whole thread in LBN trying to point out moulding issues ,& that it took place in the prison Hall where the other torture pics happened.

that's all theory , I'm trying to point out facts...#12 is probably a red herring but I threw it out there because it's new.

[MichaelHarris]

14. yeah one

through unauthorized stem-cell research one of the killers regrew a leg on the back of a Llama and then replaced his missing one.

[tandot]

18. Isn't there anyone who has experience/resources/connections

to research the whole thing??? Too many people are speculating and all kinds off theories are brought up.

After seeing/hearing what was going on in Iraq, I wouldn't doubt if a couple of those crazy a** right-wing fundamentalist Bush supporters (mercenaries or military) roughed Berg up a little bit too much and then made it seem like our "enemy" did it. Just look at the posts on the freerepublic. If they could, they'd nuke Hollywood. They even listed Berg's father (with the name of their company) on their "list of enemies" because he was involved in anti-war activities.

But as long as we don't have a little bit more on that story, I'd rather believe that Al Qaeda was responsible for it.

[stickdog]

20. I'd rather everyone kept an open mind.

Don't you think that would be the most rational response under current circumstances?

[tandot]

30. I agree that it would be best to keep an open mind.

However, right now we don't have anything to support any of those theories.

A couple of things don't match and some stuff doesn't look right. I don't have the experience or knowledge to judge if they are just coincidences or if something is fishy.

I am certain that right at this moment more knowledgeable people suspicious of the whole incident are trying to sort through all of that. I bet especially Nick Berg's father will try everything in his power to find out what happened.

I'd rather wait 'til I hear more facts.

[slaveplanet]

32. maybe you can

clue me in as well...aside from the last part of 1a, parts of 5, and maybe 9...which ones are you refering to as theories??

//However, right now we don't have anything to support any of those theories.//

so when do pictures , video tapes and main stream reporting not constitute support? I'm really confused now

[stickdog]

33. Right now, we have nothing to support your favorite theory.

You are the one espousing a theory. I'm merely pointing out some problems with it.

But I guess if it makes you feel better to believe that some faceless horrible Muslims must have done this ...

[tandot]

42. Are you reading my posts, stickdog?

I don't know any more than any of you. I probably know less. I am trying to read all the different threads that have been posted for a couple of days. I agree with you that there are some problems with the tape and the circumstances.

Maybe theory is not the word I should be using.

You sound like you are attacking me for keeping an open mind!?

Terrible crimes are committed by both sides, not just "faceless horrible Muslims"

Invading a country and killing thousands of innocent civilians who had no choice whatsoever...that is the crime here. Nick Berg had a choice to go over there and he took the risk that he might get killed.

[stickdog]

45. Here's what I was referring to.

But as long as we don't have a little bit more on that story, I'd rather believe that Al Qaeda was responsible for it.

I was simply making an observation about this statement. You currently have a favored theory while I do not.

I'm not trying to insult you. I think it's great that you're keeping an open mind about this, which is all I'm asking.

[RobinA]

57. Except

that time and time again, your mind is open to every bizarre reading of whatever events you are conspiracy-theorizing about except the most logical reading. Your belief in the stupendous power and abilities of BushCo is unwavering. They WISH they were half as powerful as you seem to believe they are.

[stickdog]

62. Maybe so. But can you blame me?

Florida's "Felonious" Voter Rolls: They Knew It or They Blew It.
9/11: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Flight 93: They Knew it or They Blew It.
The Bin Laden Family's 9/12-9/14 Exit Flights: They Knew It or They Blew It.
The WTC Asbestos/Heavy Metal Cover Up: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Uncaught Anthrax Murderer: They Knew It or They Blew It.
The Patriot Act: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Total Information Awareness: They Knew It or They Blew It.
The CAPPS II Terrorist-Helping "No Fly" List: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Poindexter's Assassination "Futures" Market: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Fraud-o-Matic Voting Machines: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Osama's Tora Bora Escape: They Knew It or They Blew It.
US & Iraqi Depleted Uranium Exposure: They Knew it or They Blew it.
Iraqi WMDs: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Cheney's Millions in Halliburton Stock Options: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Poppy Bush's Carlyle Group War Profiteering: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Outing CIA Agent Valerie Plame: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Gutting the Freedom of Information Act: They Knew It or They Blew It.
The 9/11 Commission: They Knew It or They Blew It.
The UN Bombing: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Medicare PharmCorp Plundering: They Knew It or They Blew It.
US's Biggest Export = Jobs: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Enron (& other corporate insider) Scams: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Hedge/Mutual Fund Scams: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Energy Policy Written By Enron, et al: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Record Federal Government Growth: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Homeland Security Pork Barrel: They Knew It or They Blew It
False Employment Data: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Enemy Combatant Legal Limbo: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Cutting Veterans Benefits: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Destoying Reservists' Moral and Enrollment: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Iraqi Prison Abuses: They Knew It or They Blew It.
"Clear Skies" Pollution Maker: They Knew It or They Blew It.
"Better Watch What You Say" Bully Pulpit Threats: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Reclassification of Most of Reagan's & Bush I's Papers (which had been scheduled to be released): They Knew It or They Blew It.
Refusal To Release Documents to Congress, Courts or 9/11 Commission: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Pseudo-Scientific Science Panels: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Wildly Misunderestimated Iraq War & Medicare Bill Costs: They Knew It or They Blew It.
Four Rounds of Surplus then Budget Busting Tax Breaks For Rich People & Corporations: They Knew It or They Blew It.


Just how often are you willing to accept limitless incompetence as an excuse without getting just a tad suspicious?


Florida White Collar Vote Counting Riot: They staged it.
Supreme Court Decision: Supremely Bad Law
Wellstone's Crash: Pilot incapacitation makes more sense than pilot incompetence
The "Dirty Bomber" vs. 9/11 Family CSPAN Misdirection: They staged it.
The California "Energy Crisis": They staged, gamed, bilked amd Arnied it.
Saddam Statue Celebration: They staged it.
Mission Accomplished: They staged it.
The Gropinator Recall: They staged it.
The Plastic Turkey Thanksgiving Drop: They staged it.

Once again, I ask, can you blame me for being a tad suspicious of these folks?

[ACLYouth]

162. uh...

Quote from Stickdog: "Just how often are you willing to accept limitless incompetence as an excuse without getting just a tad suspicious?"

Answer: Often. Why? Maybe because the administration is limitlessly incompetent?

Oh no, my opinion is different from yours, I'M CLOSEMINDED!!! I have to believe Mossad and the CIA tag-teamed on this one in order to be accepted! G-d forbid I have my own opinon!

[stickdog]

163. Believe whatever you wish.

Nobody said anything about a CIA-Mossad tag team. I personally don't even have a favored theory right now, but if this was psyops its purpose & sloppiness would make the Rumsfeld's own little private intelligence agency the primary suspect.

[Joanne98]

144. Not when it comes to Free Republic.......

Sorry

[Eloriel]

67. Why? Al Qaeda hasn't claimed responsibility for it

At least not that I know. The U.S. has claimed Al Zarqawi did it, and I think they put "Al Qaeda" in the translation, but another translation says that Al Qaeda isn't in there.

Hmmm, I guess that's another item on Stickdog's list.

[Streetdoc270]

136. Al Quaeda never claims responsibility...

Unlike Hammas or An Insular (sp) Brigade, Al Quaeda does not usually issue statements of responsilibity.

[doni_georgia]

105. I have just been searching legitimate news articles

Nothing out of the mainstream. I have deliberately shied away from opinion pieces and conspiracy sites. Today I googled a news search on Nick Berg. Read about 50 articles. Came up with a long list of suspicious (not damning, nothing requiring a tin foil hat) items. I'm sorry if it bothers some here that I find that there are some weird coincidences in this story. I do. I was a newspaper reporter, then an archivist. I am now a history teacher (3rd career). It's just my nature to question things, and to search for facts.

Contrary to what anyone here might say, I have yet to see 50 threads saying the CIA did it. I for one, have been very careful not to accuse anyone of this murder. I have spoken out and said I do not believe Zarqawi did it, because he supposedly is (a) dead, or (b) the owner of a prosthetic leg (depending on which account you believe).

It's just odd to me how many people here are outraged over the discussion about the Berg murder. Why? I was under the impression that this was a discussion board. Damn, my bad.

[Tansy_Gold]

149. Regarding Zarqawi

I, too, did some research. I posted some of it in another thread, and I'm too tired to go look it up again. But here's the gist.

Abu Musad al-Zarqawi was reported dead because his hideout in Afghanistan had been bombed. There was a belief that he had gone to Iraq in 2002 for surgery on a wounded leg, and the belief was further that the surgery involved an amputation and prosthesis, which would have rendered him incapable of escaping the bombing. Both the artificial limb and the death in the bombing were SPECULATIVE; I saw no articles that included any kind of definitive pronouncement on his condition.

On 6 April 2004, CNN reported that someone in the * administration announced that al-Zarqawi was responsible for various attacks in Iraq, and the same government agency reversed its speculative suspicion regarding the prosthetic leg. No reason was given for the reversal.

I personally find it interesting -- and somewhat dismaying -- that so many people here on DU are taking it for granted that al-Zarqawi has an artifical leg and/or is dead based solely on media reports, when these same people claim to totally distrust the media! I do not think one can pick and choose one's skepticism.

Do we know for a fact that Abu Musad al-Zarqawi is dead or an amputee? I don't think so. I don't think we can even say one way or another "beyond a reasonable doubt." Therefore, I think it behooves us to keep our minds open to the possibility that the mysterious al-Zarqawi may be implicated in the Berg murder. To dismiss the possibility is as foolish, I think, as to accept it blindly.

There has been almost no discussion or speculation on what might have happened to Mr. Berg in the weeks between his April 9/10 disappearance and his eventual murder. I don't believe it's even been determined when Mr. Berg was killed, whether shortly before his body was found or days or week earlier. I don't believe anyone has posted an autopsy report. I don't believe even know for sure if his body was still clothed in the orange costume seen in the video.

Surely his murder is a mystery. There are many, many, many unanswered questions. But I see an obstinacy on the part of some theorists to accept the bizarre even in the face of multiple rationales opposing, and at the same time an unwillingness to address the more serious questions -- where was Berg for those 30 days? what efforts did his parents make to find him in that month? We know that they filed suit against Rumsfeld in early april, but what about after Nick disappeared again?

[stickdog]

157. We aren't talking about the missing month simply because NO

INFORMATION WHATSOEVER HAS BEEN RELEASED CONCERNING THE MISSING MONTH.

Therefore, any discussion about what happened in the missing month would be 100% speculative by definition. Considering that we have ZERO evidence and ZERO information concerning the missing month, what do you expect us to discuss?

Considering Zarqawi, all we are saying is that the VERY SAME INTELLIGENCE that is now telling us that Zarqawi committed this crime (based entirely on their current SPECULATION) recently presented "evidence" that Zarqawi was an amputee then SPECULATED that Zarqawi was dead.

[truebrit71]

19. Just about nails it down I think...

..of course the DU Ostriches will slam you for daring you to question the unquestionable....

[Junkdrawer]

24. Please note: Your critics avoid the facts like wolfbane...

instead, they dredge up the most ridiculous things posted here and repeat them over and over and over..

And that is my point #10.

[goodhue]

31. 2 other facts

1) Berg had been to Abu Ghraib during his prior trip to Iraq, where he had inspected antenna towers and taken photos "where allowed."

2) Berg had Iraqi relatives who he had visited in Mosul. His father's late sister had married an Iraqi. Berg visisted the husband's brother in Mosul, where he helped his set up an e-mail account.

On edit: I see you have version of my number one as back half of yoru number seven.

[markses]

34. And when you say Abu Ghraib

You mean of course the neighborhood west of Baghdad, and not the prison complex proper.

As for another fact, we know from the context of Berg's email to his former client that at least some of the pictures were of the communication towers themselves, and could provide material for conference presentations to either the Society of Broadcast Engineers or the Pennsylvania Association of Broadcasters.

[stickdog]

36. Yes. Just as we know the context of this video becoming BREAKING NEWS

is in the midst of the most damaging scandal BushCo has ever faced.

And just as we know that the context of BushCo's denials that the US ever had custody of Berg come in the midst of people noticing the similarities between the uniform, chair and wall paint in Berg's video and those shown in the Abu Ghraib prison photos.

[markses]

Uh....

Okay?

[goodhue]

44. presumably

I don't really know myself.
I agree that there is no evidence he actually was at prison.
But the towers he inspected were over 1000 feet high.
So it is not unreasonable to think he may have seen and taken photos of prison if he was allowed.
Notice that he reportedly took photos where allowed.
This begs the question of who was doing the allowing.


This is what AP reported:
http://www.boston.com/dailynews/133/world/Questions_surround_young_Ameri:.shtml

* * *

Berg was inspecting communications facilities, some of which were destroyed in the war or by looters.

During his time in Iraq, he struggled with the Arabic language and worked at night on a tower in Abu Ghraib, a site of repeated attacks on U.S. convoys and the location of the notorious prison where U.S. soldiers abused Iraqi inmates.

His father, Michael Berg, told the AP that Michael's sister, now dead, married an Iraqi man named Mudafer, who became close to Nicholas. In one of the e-mails, Nicholas Berg describes going to the northern city of Mosul, where he introduced himself to Mudafer's brother, identified as Moffak Mustaffa.

''We got along splendidly,'' Berg wrote. ''We spent a few hours and I helped him establish an e-mail account.''

* * *


And here is e-mail account:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1588527

Why did he go to Iraq?

He was aware that some towers were damaged last year during bombing
missions, and many more had been looted... copper lines removed,
diagonal members taken out, etc. Few obstruction lighting systems
were functional -- he mentioned an 800 foot tower two miles from an
airport (used by our military) that was totally dark. So he first went over in December to see if he could help to assist in the reconstruction, restore Iraq's broadcast services, and repair the serious structural damage that endangered the lives of their citizens.

I received the following email message from Nick in early January:

>About Iraq-

>I am taking photos - where allowed. It's actually pretty sad - I just
>got off one of two 320 meter monster towers in Abu Gharib (also home
>to the main political prison) which use to support most of Baghdad
>area's VHF and UHF.
>Both have been badly looted, including 4000 feet or more of flexible
>6-1/8" heliax, two full 12X4 panel TV antennas, and even some
>structural members. I was also in the North as I mentioned, but here there
>wasn't as much damage. I'll definitely share some of these pix with
>you and others next time I'm in the area - I'd love to put together a
>little presentation for SBE or PAB in about six monthes after I've
>been on every site and fixed some of them.


He returned to Philadelphia in late January to catch up on some
domestic business -- then in early February, tackled an antenna
replacement job at our aux site, which he had quoted last summer.

[markses]

46. It's reasonable that he may have

It's reasonable that he may not have.

This post is about what is established, after all.

• It is established that he was on the 320m towers in Abu Ghraib (the "neighborhood," or area, not the prison).
  
• It's established that he took pictures.
  
• It's established that some of these pictures would be appropriate for a technical presentation about the communication towers in Iraq to the Society for Broadcast Engineers and the Pennsylvania Association of Broadcasters.
  

That is what is established from that email. Right?

[stickdog]

51. Is it reasonable to think he was held in US custody in an Iraqi prison?

Is it reasonable to think that he might have seen something unsavory there?

[goodhue]

58. certainly

although its not been established :-)

[markses]

79. I think US custody of Mr. Berg

has been established by the Consul's email.

It is just as reasonable to think he saw something "unsavory" as to think that he did not. Of course, most people see unsavory things when they are put in prison or jail (I know I did!). But I assume you are referring to a very specific kind of unsavory behavior? In any case, yes it is reasonable. It is also reasonable to think he saw nothing out of the ordinary and no abuse when he was held by the Iraqi police and/or US forces.

[goodhue]

87. Yes I agree US custody has been established.

Although the custodians have yet to come forward.

[Joanne98]

145. Duh. Can you name one US prison that doesn't have something

UNSAVORY going on. Look at the juvenile detention centers. They're consant rape and torture. It's the American way.

[goodhue]

55. sure

It also establishes that Berg had been traveling around Iraq including Abu Ghraib with a camera in December and January.

I wonder where that camera is now.
Did he have when detained in late March?
Did he have it when released?
It's not been established.

Another thing that has not been established is that he was beheaded by al-Zarqawi. Right? But I digress.

[markses]

78. As far as I'm concerned

It has not been established who removed Mr. Berg's head from the rest of his body.

Do I sense some hostility in your tone? It's hard to measure online, but I'm getting a hostile vibe. We're supposed to be setting out the established events, yeah? That's all I'm trying to do, anyway.

[goodhue]

80. no hostility intended

But I'm uncertain why you insist of limiting focus to setting out established events. Seems to me we can go a step futher and make inferences from established events. The inferences may be speculative, some wildly so, but they do help to form semi-coherent narratives of what may or may not have happened to Nick Berg when he was in Iraq.

I still find the established fact that Berg took photos while at Abu Ghraib tower in Dec/Jan pretty compelling.

[markses]

82. I can limit my inquiry in whatever way I see fit

You can make inferences in whatever way you see fit. This is a fairly simple operation. I'm just interested in what is established. If you're interested in making inferences, by all means proceed. I'll still say that - for the most part - the opposite inference is reasonable as well, given the what is established.

For example: Given what is established, it is just as reasonable to say that Berg took many pictures of the tower's technical condition and perhaps some "local color" or landscape shots, and that none of his pictures have anything to do with Abu Ghraib. It is also just as reasonable to say that his pictures had absolutely nothing to do with his murder. At this point, since both sets of inferences are so many levels away from what is established, both are equally reasonable.

Why do I insist on the established? That's just what i happen to be doing. Ain't nothing wrong wit dat, as far as I can tell. :-)

[goodhue]

85. fair enough n/t

[ElementaryPenguin]

35. Awesome, Stickdog!

Totally nailed it!

:wow:

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[HamdenRice]

40. Great post - I was just thinking its time to sum up and collect ...

all the inconsistencies in one place.

Here are a few more:

15. The killers appear to be wearing flak jackets and/or kevlar body armor.

16. The audio scream of the victim occurs without the video image of the victim opening his mouth or appearing to move. The audio scream is identified by some listeners as the voice of a woman.

17. Al-Zarqawi is known to have a tatoo of green spheres on his hand, but none appear in the video.

18. The average human head contains about 1.5 liters of blood, but when the head is held up, no blood drains from the head.

19. The days before the "discovery" of the video on a website, Bush leaks that he is very displeased with Rumsfeld and that Rumsfeld may need to resign. The day before the video is discovered, Bush states Rumsfeld is an excellent Secy of Defense and will stay.

[HFishbine]

43. You've got this wrong:

"he somehow befriended the guy the US government calls 9/11's 20th hijacker."

[stickdog]

47. According to his father, Berg let "the 20th hijacker" use his computer.

What's your specific objection?

[HFishbine]

49. My objection

is that you are playing fast and loose with the facts. How about a source (and a correction)?

[stickdog]

53. WTF? Ever heard of news.google.com?

http://kutv.com/topstories/local_story_135115151.html

The slain man's father, Michael Berg, told reporters Thursday that his son was cleared of any wrongdoing. He said Nicholas Berg met Moussaoui while riding the bus to classes, and had allowed the suspect to use his computer.

Don't worry. Apology accepted.

[HFishbine]

54. That's wrong

"Government sources said Berg gave the man his password, which was later used by Moussaoui, the sources said."

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/Northeast/05/13/berg.encounter/index.html

[stickdog]

60. Berg's dad lied to reporters about this? Why?

The fact that you believe unnamed "government sources" so much that you consider their unquoted version of events so accurate that you are willing to call Berg's grieving father a liar in a public forum is extremely telling. Don't you think?

I mean, what does the poor man have to do to convince you? Produce the original emails like he did when the "government sources" lied about having his son in custody?

[HamdenRice]

61. A lot of confusion on this point ...

There are conflicting news reports. Some say that Berg met a terrorist suspect who is now in custody and that Berg allowed this suspect to use the email password. This unnamed suspect in turn, communicated with Moussoui.

The other version is that Berg met Moussoui himself and that Moussaoui used the password.

This is a point that the sources are in conflict about, so no one here is wrong

[stickdog]

63. I was accused of "playing fast and loose with the facts."

This accustion was, as usual, wrong.

[goodhue]

65. also these are not mutually exclusive

1) he loaned computer on bus to someone who used e-mail to communicate in turn with Moussaoui

2) he met Moussaoui himself at some point

[Eloriel]

72. I saw a clip of Mr. Berg himself yesterday on TV saying

that Nick had allowed an Arab acquaintance to use his email account at his request and the password was later shared with Moussaoui as were a number of others.

[HFishbine]

69. Huh?

Telling of what? And what original e-mails are you referring to?

[doni_georgia]

106. Hell Stickdog, you know the govt. wouldn't lie about it!

So Berg's dad must be the one in error! See, another case where the government is contradicting Michael Berg. WHY?

[gasperc]

52. check buzzflash, editorial states body found Saturday but video

dated 5/11?
and it was impossible to download the video but the networks all had copies within hours?

[goodhue]

59. body found May 8, video posted May 11

according to this account . . .

http://www.boston.com/dailynews/132/nation/Pennsylvania_family_of_man_who:.shtml

Pennsylvania family of man who was beheaded cries when learning details
By Jason Straziuso, Associated Press, 5/11/2004 14:24

WEST CHESTER, Pa. (AP) The family of a businessman who was beheaded after he was captured in Iraq cried Tuesday when they learned details of his videotaped death.

A video posted Tuesday on an Islamic militant Web site showed the beheading of Nick Berg, 26, of West Chester, whose family last heard from him April 9. It said the execution was carried out by an al-Qaida affiliated group to avenge the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by American soldiers.

Berg's family said earlier Tuesday that they were told by the U.S. State Department that Berg was found dead near a highway overpass in Baghdad on Saturday.

When told of the video by an Associated Press reporter, Berg's father, Michael, and his two siblings hugged and cried. They knew he had been decapitated, but didn't know the details of the killing.

''I knew he was decapitated before. That manner is preferable to a long and torturous death. But I didn't want it to become public,'' Michael Berg said.

[spanone]

56. When this story first broke the news reported that the voice was not

that of Zaqawi!!! They said he had the wrong accent from the area of Jordan Zaqari was from. Now they are sure it is him. bullshit.

[PotatoBoy]

66. Yeah uh.. is that really Nick Berg??

Uh.. he looks nothing like the guy in the video. Say..doesn't the guy in the video have brown eyes?? Maybe I'm imagining it.

[Eloriel]

74. I've looked at those photos myself

and have a lot of trouble seeing Nick Berg in the person seated in the video. :shrug: If it's Berg, he'd lost a LOT of weight (not necessarily out of the question), had much better eyebrows and a much less prominent nose. That's how it seems to me. Not sure I'd put it on the list, but ... there is a question in my mind about it.

Amazing - Just saw a b&w still flashed on the screen on MSNBC and he's MUCH thinner (with a tad bit more hair) and does look more like the guy in the video. Still not totally convinced one way or the other, tho.

[mzmolly]

77. I have been a hairdresser, and have drawn portraits, I think it's him.

I've looked at his bone structure and his hairline, and think it's the same guy personally?

Also the US flew *A* body back to the family, one that was beheaded, one who's hair and beard remain in tact.

[Tansy_Gold]

160. hair and beard intact?

I was called on the carpet by another poster when I suggested possible -- POSSIBLE -- time sequence for discovery of head and body. When I attempted to verify reports, I could not find anything that even said the head had been recovered. If the head hasn't been recovered, how can we state that hair and beard are intact? They may be in the video, but without the head, can we be sure?

I'm not being facetious. While I lean toward the simplest scenario -- which is that Berg was captured by Islamic terrorists while in Iraq and was murdered by them as a statement in response to the U.S. abuses at Abu Ghraib prison and the occupation in general, that two cameras were used to insure the one-time event would be captured, and that most anomalies in the video can be explained as technical glitches -- I have not carved this in stone . I acknowledge that there are MANY MANY unanswered questions. So this post is merely to point out that I hadn't even heard for certain that the head was with the body.

Anyone who can verify one way or the other, please do so.

Tansy Gold

[mzmolly]

68. Question on the chair?

"white plastic Walmart chairs"

Where are these in the Abu Ghraib prison videos? I haven't seen them.

I have questioned the yellow walls, and the orange jumpsuit, but the chair? I hadn't seen, anyone got a pic?

[goodhue]

70. there are many threads on this

here is one with some familiar folks hanging out with chair

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1598249

another

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1597224

[mzmolly]

75. OMG. I really think we should contact the family with this stuff?

They are probably still in shock and mourning, but this is some pretty hard to dismiss shit.

[PotatoBoy]

81. Let's get some detailed photos please, for analysis

Please reply to this post, and post as many links to images of:

* Nick Berg's face, while in captivity
* Nick Berg's face, when he was free
* US soldiers involved in the Abu Ghraib abuse scandal
* The "terrorists" holding Nick captive

Please link to clean photos, nothing graphic. As high quality as possible. Or if the photo is crucial, then warn if it's graphic.

I just figured it would be useful to have all these photos in one area, so people can do analysis more easily.

I want to compare Nick's face (captivity Nick) to before, when he was free. He appeared to have a stocky build and a wide face.. check out his nose and chin. I want to compare those features to his nose/chin in the captivity photos. It just doesn't look like Nick. Maybe that sounds absurd, but hey..just wanna see for myself.

Also, just for kicks, it would be interesting to compare photos of the US soldiers at Abu Ghraib with the terrorists. Body types, shoes, accessories (rings etc), eyes.

[mzmolly]

127. I agree, who wants to start the thread?

:hi:

[Q]

83. I've seen these same gadflies on every board...

...I've ever visited. They're too chickenshit to come right out and say they're afraid of the truth...or that they just might be defending the Bush* regime disquised as a Democrat.

- Discussing theories about a video is a harmless activity...that just might lead to the truth. Yet...some 'round here react as if they're against the truth coming out. And who else but Bush* supporters wouldn't want the truth to be found?

- Don't like the Berg or conspiracy threads? Respect others right to free speech and ignore those threads. Otherwise you're just a silly disrupter trying to chill the discussion.

[ibegurpard]

86. I agree with you

eom

[number6]

89. right on ! Q

stickdog you :yourock: , I support you ... keep on


as for nay sayer ninnies (explative deleted) ;)

[tom_paine]

92. "Gadflies" is right. However, some consider themselves

"investigative journalists" for posting their arrogant, literally pointless, denunciations out-of-hand.

Of course, that's :silly: :crazy:

[doni_georgia]

107. Plenty of freepers bragging on their sites that they have 1000+ posts here

might explain some of the reaction to this discussion.

**Not accusing any individual of being a freeper - just an observation**

[dweller]

93. get up there

:kick:


dp

[nomatrix]

94. I'll tell you what everybody here is missing

No tinfoil required.

Go climb a tower. Seriously. Here in this country, with nobody shooting at you. Do you think you can just drive up to one, and start climbing, by yourself? At night? No BS, you can't do it. You need at least 2 people, and he's going to do this at night in the open with a flashlight?

For all those who can't be bothered to do any research, but will constantly criticize anyone who does, take a few minutes with your head out of your --- and google up work Iraq contractors opinions and you'll find boards like this, with skilled labor, who do work overseas. They are talking about Berg too. They are saying WTF! You have to stay at armed camps, travel in Kevlar with armed guards, drive at high speeds, work is targeted, booby trapped, sabotaged. Most are returning not to go back, even at high pay because it is way too dangerous.
And THEY say, here is Berg, can't speak the language, working alone, has work/doesn't have work, taking photographs (photo journalist have been killed for that) climbing a tower makes you an easy target. They don't buy it either, because as it is told it does not fit with the reality in Iraq. Americans do not mingle.

No Conspiracy theory from this, just the facts as it is there.
The real conspiracy theory is the "flip-flopping" of the story that has been fed in bites small enough to swallow, for those who swallow, that is.

[Egalitarian]

148. You can climb solo

Basically, you wear a harness that has two leads which attach to the tower to prevent a fall. One of these leads is always attached as you move the other one above the lower one. It's a slow way to climb, but much cheaper than having two people swap leads in a roped team and no way you can haul up a 1000 foot rope for protection. Too heavy. FYI, I've never climbed towers, but was called out to a local tower that needed some work. I was about to go up and do some repair work under the direction a more knowledgeable, but scared to climb engineer on the ground. He tried one last thing on the ground and fixed the problem, but I was going up solo, just before dusk with an LED headlamp only. Not much, if any light source required since you have nice, consistant hand and footholds the entire way up.

[leftofthedial]

95. I'm ashamed and embarassed to even be reading this tripe

and nonsense and who do you think you are? Some kind of commie no doubt who hates our freedoms just like the terrists for saying that kind of anti-American stuff. And this kind of wacky conspiracy theory stuff just makes us look bad to the freepers so cut it out and I mean it and I'm leaving DU and never coming back because you people have just gone too far this time, I mean it's one thing to criticize Wolf Blitzer a little bit once in awhile, but to claim that all the facts you listed above are actually true is just counter to every real story the great free American media (except for the liberals) has been so careful to provide us. I'm signing off if you don't cut it out I mean it so cut it out. Let's not lose our heads over this Berg thing.

cut it out.






I mean it.

[trumad]

103. Don't let the door hit you in the ass!

[leftofthedial]

110. guess I should have used the /sarcasm flag

and I thought it was so obvious.

Especially the part where I "accused" you of believing that the facts were true.

Personally, I think Americans executed Berg. Nearly everything about the video was suspicious from the start. In fact, I'm beginning to believe that al qaeda doesn't even really exist. Emmanuel Goldstein lives! Apparently.

I mean it.

so cut it out.

[REP]

96. Another Point, Perhaps?

I haven't seen the video, and don't know enough to make any observations, other than this - there's more discussion about the tape, etc than there is about the totrture of prisoners by the US. That, and the timing of the release of the tape, make me highly suspicious of the official versions of events.

I don't know who killed Berg or why. I have the tinfoil, I just haven't made the hat yet.

[stickdog]

97. Thanks to everybody who added to (and/or helped create) the list.

I'll try to update with the new information, supporting links and corrected spelling over the weekend.

If you come across anything new, please link the article (or the thread) here for me if you have the time.

Finally, thanks to DU for still being DU.

[mzmolly]

98. Thanks to you. I can't get beyond the orange suit, yellow walls and white

chair ??? *sigh*

[Eloriel]

104. I'll tell you what we need, Stickdog

We need a Master Research thread -- one that pulls together all the known facts with links and such. You know, like in the old days at DU.

We need this because I am about to tear my hair out with all the MISinformation circulating on some of today's threads -- people saying Berg gave his email password directly to Moussaoui, people saying his family didn't have any clue about "any of this" (presumably his business, etc.), people repeating that ridiculous piece of disinformation that the state has no record of his INCORPORATED business, etc.

Stupid, ill-informed stuff. Embarrassing too.

I've got a lotta links collected. I'll be happy to add to such a thread later if you'll get it going. I'm sick to death of (a) the mis- and disinformation and (b) repeating myself on thread after thread about the known facts.

[doni_georgia]

111. Embarrassing

Sorry you find the fact that I posted a link to a legitimate news story from the Philly Daily Local news site disinformation. All I did was quote and post directly from a Philadelphia legitimate news site. "The company that specialized in building communications towers never registered with the Pennsylvania Corporation Bureau, said Brian McDonald, spokesman for the state department." Sorry, I just personally found this interesting and posted the link. Really don't give a flying fuck if it is embarrassing, stupid, disinformation, etc. in your opinion. All I was doing was posting something that I thought was interesting.

[stickdog]

117. Read my post above. I've been fooled as well. It's not your fault..

It's just that we are going to have to triple check even major media sources on this one because of all the "poison pill" disinformation we are being flooding with. The idea is to float a load of easily debunkable disinfo along with the facts of the case so that anyone putting 2 and 2 together gets egg on his or her face.

[Eloriel]

139. I didn't mean it personally, doni

Not at all. I think the info posted -- such as the one you posted -- has been posted in good faith.

BUT I do admit to a great deal of frustration that in this particular instance (that the state of PA doesn't "know" about Berg's business -- which leads to the inference that it's somehow bogus) the countering information I and others have posted somehow doesn't get read or perhaps believed.

Further, we've all seen a lot of misinformation and disinformation appear in highly "legitimate" news sources (NYT anyone? WP?). As I said, this particular story was either written by a naive and ill-informed reporter OR it was intended to convey a message of illegitimacy about Berg, his business and everything else about him. IMO, there's no need for DUers to do their work or further cloud any issues out of their own misguidedness.

IOW, it's not YOU, it's that the myth persists here.

If that offends you, sorry.

[stickdog]

116. Eloriel, they know they can't beat us on the facts here, so they are

counting on us repeating easily disprovable disinformation along with the facts.

Don't worry. I'll triple check everything, post the sources and put it all up here for approval first. I realize there is a lot of spurious information, misinformation and disinformation being floated right now in order to discredit anyone looking into this thing suspiciously.

For example, even I fell for the "he met the '20th hijacker' in person" misquote attributed to Berg's father. However, note that I specifically did NOT include most of the other misinfo/disinfo/amateur speculation that's swirling around about this.

[RBHam]

99. Military Theater

http://www.infowars.com/print/iraq/berg_obvious.htm?type=topNews&storyID=5133783

[mzmolly]

101. 10) The captors are wearing bullet proof vests - like those issued to

military police?

http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/channel.cfm?channelid=94&contentid=1234



"Also - these guys are wearing bullet proof jackets. That's very American. And - when they yelled before they cut the head off - they sounded like Americans yelling at a football game."

[PotatoBoy]

108. So?

Anyone can get those. Market direct, black market, whatever.

Seriously people.. can we stop with the stuff like "oh, he's wearing white sneakers." Did I really read "these guys are wearing bullet proof jackets. That's very American."??? You can't be serious. Come on. Let's focus on the more perplexing stuff, like the stupid video title, "Sheikh Abu Musab al-Zarqawi slaughters an American infidel with his own hands." If he's admitting his name, why wear a mask then?? Why is Nick so calm looking? Why did Homeland Security post links to the video? They seemed overly eager to share it with as many Americans as possible.

[stickdog]

118. All FACTS are revelant, some more so than others.

However, "Homeland Security" didn't post this video. A group of internet monitoring intelligence gadflies with a website that had "homelandsecurity" in its URL did. So that's another bullshit red herring. Remember, TRIPLE CHECK your information on this before repeating it!

[PotatoBoy]

121. That was dumb of me

Sorry, I should've known from the web site content and appearance that it wasn't HS...

[Sweatynipples]

102. military time

This may have been said but what about the military time on the video?

[Tansy_Gold]

161. what we call "military time" here is almost universal around

the world.

This was posted in another thread by another DUer.

[PotatoBoy]

109. Something else for you to seriously consider

Here's some food for thought, on the other side of the fence.

Seriously think about this one: Let's assume these masked men are American agents..or at least, SOMEone other than terrorists, trying to disguise themselves and the video as a terrorist act. Do you really think they would leave all these visual clues behind for people like us to analyze? The yellow walls, the white chair, the orange jumpsuit, messed up video timestamps, etc. I mean seriously. I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but if I were an American soldier trying to stage this thing, I'd be like "not against the yellow walls, people will know it's Abu Ghraib prison. Bob, ditch the sneakers, stand up straight, stop fidgeting. Put Nick in all black with a hood, remove the hood only to show the viewers that it's really him." Seriously. Do you think these people would be this sloppy unintentionally? There you go, maybe they were sloppy on purpose for some reason. Or maybe this video is exactly what it is, Middle Eastern terrorists beheading an American.

But even if that were the case, I would still question Nick's extreme calmness. Remember the El Paso soldiers who were captured? Remember the video footage? They looked SCARED. Wide-eyed, shakey, eyes darting around. And they were treated WELL by their captors!

Something is fishy, but remember..these aren't total morons behind this. If there were something to cover up, I think it would've been covered up a lot better. Don't you?

[DoYouEverWonder]

112. No, they just think we're all stupid

and that we would be too horrified to notice the gory details.

BTW: Can you tell me how they were able to ID Berg's body so soon after they found it on a highway overpass in Baghdad.

And how come in the first reports they only say there was possibly 'some' trauma to the body? It's not until after the video came out, that the press knew he had been beheaded?

Oh and by the way, why would they do this in one of the prisons? If Berg had been in US custody at the time of his death, where else would they have taken him? It's not like they have a lot of options. If Berg was already in prison, hence the jumpsuit, why would they take him out of the prison to do the dirty? I think security and reducing the chance of getting caught is more important than an exotic location.

Realize that Berg may have had the misfortune of seeing too much? If he had been in any of the American run prisons, he may have seen the torture and likely he might have been tortured himself. The last thing Rummie needed this week, was an American Jew, who was an honest sucker, yapping his mouth about what he saw in prison. This makes a lot more sense than some one legged terrorist, who might be dead, killing this guy just to make a video.

[PotatoBoy]

114. More questions

Well, how soon did they ID the body? How much time elapsed between finding the body and ID'ing it? Couldn't they check fingerprints? Maybe an identifying tattoo of some kind?

True, it would be risky to take him out of the prison..but they could've at least put up a backdrop against the wall, or done more to cover up these sloppy bits that people are questioning. You know what I'm saying? Remove the body armor, remove all jewelry, etc.

I just think that if the CIA or whoever tries to cover something up, it's usually a REALLY clean cover-up. Obviously not all Americans are stupid, and there are a large handful of us who will question EVERYthing served to us. Don't you think they would plan for that group of people, and make sure there are no loose ends?

[mzmolly]

123. You appear to insinuate that the reason these things aren't suspicious

is because they are so obvious? Is that what your saying?

[PotatoBoy]

143. It's suspicious all right....

I'm just saying that, if this was really supposed to fool people, why would there be all these loopholes people are picking up on? Either:

1) They think we're all stupid OR so horrified we won't examine details
2) They were genuinely sloppy

One of those two must be the case.

[w13rd0]

151. My theory on the reason why the wall is the same in...

...Part 1 (Nick alone stating name, relations, home town, etc) and part 2 (Nick in front of 5 dressed like Ali Babba) is that the Part 1 is the "video record" taken of prisoner self-identification in the prison in which he was held.

Part 2 is made to match Part 1.

I'd like to see some of the video that was taken of interrogations at the prisons. I'm going to make a guess here, but I'm betting there are hours and hours of tape of "detainees" sitting down, bound wrist and ankle, stating their name, their home town, their occupation...and I bet they are wearing orange, backdropped by yellow stone walls.

[stickdog]

158. Exactly. Except there could be three parts.

Part II ("terrorists" reading the statement, then rushing Berg) could have been staged with a drugged or compliant Berg during his first prison stay, while Part III (the out of focus gore) was filmed later (once Berg somehow died by other means?) and then "matched" to both Parts I & II.

[nomaco-10]

113. Not neccesarily.....

bush* and the cabal lie constantly and are never challenged by anyone including our own dem politicians and especially the media. If they were a little sloppy, it's because they are complacent, they know nothing will ever come of this story except for the ramblings of a few so called "uber lefty, tinfoil hat wearing nutcases" on some internet message board. Anyone that crosses the cabal gets silenced or discredited as some nutcase, this is an established pattern with them.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that there is something very amiss about the facts and info regarding the Berg execution. I am convinced something really foul went down.

[PotatoBoy]

115. Sometimes the truth surfaces though

..and sometimes it takes DECADES for it to surface. How about when Clinton had to apologize to African Americans who were dosed knowingly with syphilis in the 50s/60s(was it?) for the purpose of testing? Man. That was a big coverup, but eventually it got out. And Waco? Waco to an extent was exposed, right?

Oh and don't get me started on the whole Timothy McVeigh thing. My dad was all about that one, analyzing it, etc., how the explosives came from within, not the truck, what was that severed leg doing there wearing camoflouge, etc.

Anyway. I was just playing devil's advocate for a moment. :)

[mzmolly]

124. Devils advocate?

My how limbaughian this all sounds. Thanks!

However there is much more information that never really comes out.

The Kennedy murder for one.

The mainstream press will be afraid to question the obvious. If Nick Berg's family does, they will be relegated to left wing nut cases as well.

In fact, I expect both to happen. I expect his family to publically question the facts, and the media/administration to question their sanity.

[stickdog]

119. That argument is so full of shit. The history of BushCo is full of sloppy

psyops. Jesus Christ, just look at all the infantile "Osama tapes" and "WMD finds" they've tried to pawn off on us over the last two years!

[PotatoBoy]

120. Osama tapes?

I've done 0 research on the Osama tapes.. what's shady about them?

[stickdog]

128. Well, let's start with three different guys playing Osama ...

Look, IF this was psyops it probably wasn't Army intel, Navy intel, CIA or NSA. It was Rummy's own personal little band of intel freelancers -- the same boys who brought us yellow cake.

Considering that, it would be MORE suspicious if the psyops was so PROFESSIONAL that it was unassailable.

[mzmolly]

125. Not to mention the fact that 80% of Freeps aka Faux news viewers are still

not aware that there were no WMD's in Iraq.

[mzmolly]

122. So your theory is that the *terrorists* staged the scene?

Could be, but I dont buy the fact that who ever did this was overly concerned about the surroundings. They were probably quite a bit distracted with the task at hand.

Seems you admit the white chair, orange jump suit, yellow walls, bullet proof vests are a bit "odd"?

[PotatoBoy]

126. Possibly

The vests, no. I've seen them on guerillas, Taliban, etc., in varying colors (green, black, blue). But the combination of the chair, walls, stances of the men, calmness of Nick..is all fishy.

[mzmolly]

129. Why the need to wear a bullet proof vest with an unarmed bound man?

Sorry, that makes no sense to me? Especially given the fact that terrorists are martyrs? Osama doesn't have such a vest does he? Did the Daniel Pearl murderers wear them?

Suspicious to me...

[PotatoBoy]

132. Good point

Good point. I'd watch the Daniel Pearl video to see how the terrorists behave, and compare that to Berg's assailants, but no thanks.. I've seen enough with the Berg video!

[keithyboy]

141. Yes, I really think Americans are that stupid. 1,000 photos of prison

abuses confirms this. We are so arrogant it makes us stupid. Or is it that we are so stupid it makes us arrogant?

[stickdog]

142. I guess that's the 10 million dollar question.

I'd like to ask the audience, Regis.

[mzmolly]

130. "15 Anomalies Surrounding Death Of Nick Berg"

1) extremely convenient "wag the dog" timing at the height of furor
regarding U.S. torture of Iraqis

2) CNN poll question: "Is the Berg killing a reason for withholding any remaining Iraq prisoner abuse pictures?" Bush has been reported to be struggling with question of whether Pentagon should release additional torture photos. Given that the alleged decapitation of Berg was allegedly prompted by the first wave of torture photos, Bush could now cite "national security" issues for witholding additional materials.

3) Berg's last known whereabouts was in U.S. custody.

4) Berg shown in video wearing orange jumpsuit known to be of U.S. issue (compare with pictures at Guantanamo).

5) Berg mysteriously captured by Al-Quaeda (still wearing jumpsuit). Either he escaped from U.S. captors or U.S. let him out -- with orange suit and all -- to be immediately apprehended by Al-Quaeda (before he had a chance to change).

6) Tape obviously spliced together and heavily edited. Goes from a) Berg sitting in chair talking about family, to b) Berg sitting on floor with hooded "militants" behind, to c) blurry camera movement, to d) almost motionless Berg on floor as head cut off.

7) Audio clearly dubbed in.

8) "Arab" reader flips through pages of "statement" and keeps ending up on the same page. Perhaps doesn't even known enough Arabic to recognize what page he's on?

9) "Arabs" have lily-white hands and (other exposed) skin.

10) "Arabs" have Western-style body posture and mannerisms.

11) When Berg decapitated, there was almost no blood. If Berg were still alive at this point, with the cut starting at front of throat, blood would have been spraying everywhere. Berg's severed head, the floor, Berg's clothes, and even the hand of the "Arab" who decapitated Berg had no visible blood on it.

12) Berg's body didn't move while on the ground. Although held down, Berg would have tried to instinctively wiggle and writhe away from captor's grip.

13) Camera angle made it impossible to see if Berg's eyes were even open.

14) Alleged "scream" from Berg sounded to be that of a woman and was clearly dubbed in.

15) Berg goes to great trouble to identify himself, providing information about his family. Why? To elicit greater sympathy? Or to provide a positive ID. FBI visited Berg family in an attempt to "verify his identity". Guy in video looks very little like Berg photos provided by family.

http://www.homelandsecurityus.net/nick_berg_mystery.htm

I think that the person killed was Berg myself, and I think he looked like him (with a new hair style and beard) ???

[Streetdoc270]

135. Was that an MP5?

Can someone with a clear copy of the vid (or better viewers than mine) tell if the guy with the white shoes on is carring a MP5? It looks like he is slinging one over his sholder early in the Vid. I was under the impression that the AK47 is the weapon of choice for that area due to the fact its cheep, easy to maintain, available, and has a ready ammo supply as opposed to the expensive MP5 which uses 9mm ammo, not the best weapon to use if your enemy is armored US troops....

[PotatoBoy]

146. Yeah they're carrying MP5s.. nice catch there

At least the guy on the far right is, for SURE..it's an MP5.

[mzmolly]

131. My thoughts ... Could Nick Berg have witnessed something he wasn't

supposed to? Or, could they have thought he did?

Wondering why he was the target?

[billbuckhead]

133. I think was produced by the "Contractors", but it was aBFEE film.

Killing someone is their ModusOperendi at this point. By managing the "news" they manage "democracy".

[Streetdoc270]

137. Was Nick Berg CIA? n/t

[TrogL]

138. That he's still breathing

I was wondering if he was, in fact, dead at the start of the film, but he appears to move of his own volition. Hence any thoughts of the later timestamps from the same camera is nonsence.

Therefore we have two cameras, one of lower quality, perhaps older than the other, accounting for the different timestamp and the grainy quality of the video.

[stickdog]

140. He's breathing during the reading of the speech (drugged perhaps?).

But there are no clear signs of life after the obvious edit that occurs when they force him to the ground.

[PotatoBoy]

147. Check it out..does his mouth move..

...at 13:46:12? Sorry, I know that's a tough part to watch :( I'm just stepping frame by frame. It looks like his mouth closes then opens again. I can't tell cuz the quality sucks, but maybe it's just his slack jaw hitting the floor as they manhandle him.

[Joanne98]

150. Being discussed right now on this show

http://www.wlsam.com/listenlive.asp

[kevinam]

153. I don't agree with some of what you said.

Just because I don't agree with some of your points, doesn't mean I consider you a crazy tinfoiler. I am just trying to look at what I saw from a fuzzy video which in my opinion was of poor quality.

1. "Fat, white fidgety terra'ists wearing tennis shoes..."
I have read some folks say they were wearing bullet-proof vests, and others say they are fat. I don't think being over weight says this is a conspiracy. "White", from the video I saw, I don't know how someone can 100% state that they are white guys by a fuzzy video of only hands. "Fidgety", I don't necessarily see the relevence of that to imply the video is a hoax, or set up. "tennis shoes" again, I don't see how that is indicative of the video being hoax. I would think some Iraqis wear white tennis shoes.

a. "is wearing the sort of large gold ring that is expressly forbidden in fundy Islamic communities"

Not all people follow every letter of the law concerning their religion. These guys aren't radical muslums, they are trying to free their country from what they see as invaders.

3. "A supposedly live beheading without any visibly spurting blood."

I don't know that every beheading is the same. It seems I have seen a video of one on ogrish.com and there wasn't this enormous amount of gushing blood. I would think it is possible for blood to flow down the throat or other places. Again, we are talking about a poor quality video which is difficult to see real good detail.

5) Berg had been held in US custody (in the Abu Ghraib prison?) for two weeks without charge or access to phones or legal help just days before he was last heard from. And the US now denies this, despite the family's insistence and overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Berg's family sued the DoD to get him released from custody. For that reason, he had to have some contact with the outside world or else his family wouldn't have known he was being held captive.

8) Ugly yellow paint, orange jumpsuits and, yes, white plastic Walmart chairs -- all of which appear in both the Berg video and the Abu Ghraib prison videos.

I agree the orange jumpsuit thing is a odd. The dingy yellow paint, again, I don't think that it absolutely means anything. Again, poor video quality, the two different paints might look much different but it is un-noticable because of the lousy video. The chairs, that isn't a clincher for me. There could be millions of those chairs in Iraq. All we know is that they are similar chairs. In the Berg video, he is sitting on it, so the design of the back of the chair is unknown.

I agree there are some inconsistancies with the story we are being told. I don't think that absolutely means the CIA killed him, or created a fake video to rile the American public. Is it possible, yes, but I am not convinced...Kevin.

[mzmolly]

154. Not convinced either Kevin... just want some questions answered.

:shrug:

[stickdog]

155. A measured response

I have read some folks say they were wearing bullet-proof vests

Misinfo, IMHO

and others say they are fat. I don't think being over weight says this is a conspiracy.

Of course, it is of dubious importance in and of itself. But it is far more anomalous for an Arab than for an American.

"White", from the video I saw, I don't know how someone can 100% state that they are white guys by a fuzzy video of only hands.

Are there lots of non-white people with white hands? You can tell that some (but not all) of the terra'ists' hands are white by comparing them to Berg's face.

"Fidgety", I don't necessarily see the relevance of that to imply the video is a hoax, or set up.

Again, it justs fits a bit more with Westerners playing dress up than with vicious terra'ists making a serious proclamation.

"tennis shoes" again, I don't see how that is indicative of the video being hoax.

Are tennis shoes the favored footwear of Arab terra'ists? Once again, this is of dubious importance in and of itself, of course. But it is more anomalous for an Arab than for an American.

Not all people follow every letter of the law concerning their religion. These guys aren't radical muslums, they are trying to free their country from what they see as invaders.

That's not what the CIA says. The CIA says these guys are radical fundamentalist Islamic al Qaeda terra'ists.

Berg's family sued the DoD to get him released from custody. For that reason, he had to have some contact with the outside world or else his family wouldn't have known he was being held captive.

Yes. This is not in dispute. And?

I agree there are some inconsistencies with the story we are being told. I don't think that absolutely means the CIA killed him, or created a fake video to rile the American public. Is it possible, yes, but I am not convinced...Kevin.

Nobody is saying that there is anything here that PROVES who did it. However, since we have no proof either way, the logical standard for determining the most LIKELY suspects is the preponderance of evidence. Of course, people need to make their own judgments about that.

[Rex]

159. nope, youre one of us now.

no wait, you already is, ain't ye?