Do fundamentalist muslims wear gold?

[Dookus]

Or at least jewelry that appears to be gold? You decide:

Osama bin-Laden:



Here's another in which he wears a ring:



and another:




and here is Ayatollah Mohammed Baqir al-Hakim:



Another of al-Hakim:



And another of al-Hakim:

http://www.heute.t-online.de/ZDFheute/img/4/0,1369,2159684,00.jpg

And Ayatollah Khamenei:



and another of Khamenei:



And another of Khamenei:



And Ayatollah Khatami:



And an unnamed African Imam:



And Ayatollah Ahmad Janati:

[mzmolly]

1. Welp guess that clears that up ... now get to work on the orange jump suit

wont you? :hi:

[Dookus]

2. lol...

well I was told that a fundamentalist Muslim wearing gold would be the equivalent of a rabbi eating a ham and cheese hot-pocket.

I'll see what I can do on the jumpsuit :)

[Leilani]

25. Good research!

Shoots down the gold jewelry theory.

[Mistress Quickly]

3. I saw a high res pic

of the jump suit and it looked all shiny, satiny, like a robe. Not like it would be us issue cloth. I'll see if I can find it.

[Minstrel Boy]

9. Here's Berg and a Gitmo comparison:

[doni_georgia]

45. Berg's orange suit is silk. Don't think they're wearing silk in Gitmo n/t

[stickdog]

47. Please explain why you think Berg is wearing silk.

Do you have any evidence to share with us?

Considering that fundamentalist Muslim men are forbidden from wearing silk, where and why do you think the al Qaeda guys came up with orange silk uniform?

[doni_georgia]

89. Just looks like a silky material - look at the sheen

Definitely not cotton. I believe this whole thing is as fishy as anyone else. I frankly do not believe for one second that this was Zarqawi who committed the execution. There are way too many inconsistencies.

[Scairp]

90. That is not a very clear image

I hardly think they would give him anything silk to wear. What would be the point of that? As for the gold jewelry thing, this is a non-starter. They wear gold in Saudi Arabia, and they like to give it away too. My husband has a 24k solid gold ID bracelet that he never wears, and it was given to him by a Saudi in Saudi Arabia many years ago as a gift.

[eridani]

80. Prison jumpsuits available online

Add this piccie for comparison?

http://www.nationaltextile.us/correctional_clothing

Jumpsuits, orange and traditional striped. V-neck and regular collars. Short sleeves pictured.

Berg neckline looks more notched than V-neck, though.

[Eloriel]

4. Well, SOMEONE in the Muslim world thinks so --

as I posted on another thread where you were braying about this issue, this charge did NOT come from a Western source. It was the headline tacked onto an ABC story reprinted in the online Kalifah.com:

Executioner wore gold ring - forbidden by Islam
http://www.khilafah.com/home/category.php?DocumentID=9529&TagID=2
uploaded 13 May 2004


Behind the Masks
Clues From Graphic Tape of Beheading Could Help Identify Killers
By Brian Ross and Vic Walter
ABCNEWS.com

May 13, 2004— Crucial clues into the masked men seen in the videotaped beheading of American Nicholas Berg may come from the tape itself, as well as Berg's body, federal investigators involved in the case say.
After analyzing the audio of the tape, the CIA has concluded with "high probability" that the masked speaker, who also carried out the beheading, is Abu Musab al Zarqawi, the top al Qaeda figure in Iraq. Zarqawi is also believed to be behind a wave of suicide bombings in Iraq against American targets.

-- more --

[Dookus]

5. Braying?

why must people be so rude?

Do you dispute the fact that fundamentalist Muslim men have been shown to wear gold or gold-appearing jewelry?

edit: yes, of course I read the original article. I posted in the thread yesterday. My point is simply because one website says something, doesn't make it true. I have demonstrated more than amply that fundamentalist Muslim men wear gold or gold-colored jewelry.

[ibegurpard]

31. rudeness begets rudeness

eom

[Dookus]

33. I've not said a single rude thing to Eloriel

I know a lot of people feel offended when their pet theories are disproven, but that's not being rude. That's just good old-fashioned debate.

[ibegurpard]

39. Coming into a thread where people are discussing something

and calling it ridiculous and putting people down for it is not good old-fashioned debate. It's good old-fashioned rude. If people then accuse you of braying at a later time then you really have no cause to whine.

[Dookus]

43. and how does that differ

from what you're doing right now?

I have called ARGUMENTS ridiculous, not people

[ibegurpard]

46. It doesn't

hence my earlier reply "rudeness begets rudeness."

[Dookus]

49. Well

I have never entered a thread just to be rude to someone. I present arguments, and evidently that pisses you off. :shrug:

My disagreeing with you on certain factual matters seems to offend you, but there's little I can do about that. Now do you have something to contribute to the topic under discussion, or do you just want to attack me some more?

[ibegurpard]

52. On the contrary

Your disagreeing with me on factual matters bothers me not at all. However, your snarky, sarcastic comments and attempts to ridicule people who speculate about things that there are very good reasons to question bother me a great deal.

[Dookus]

55. I see...

You don't, in fact, have anything to add to the discussion. You just want to insult me. Oh well....

[ibegurpard]

62. OK, I'll add something to the discussion

whether or not muslims might be wearing gold is irrelevant as to whether or not their religion explicitly prohibits them from doing so. Catholics are prohibited from using birth control and yet many do.
So what you've proven here, assuming that these rings are gold, is that some Muslims aren't following the dictates of their religion.
As to people in the video wearing gold rings: None of the details in the video are relevant to my questions...questions like why is the government denying Berg was being detained when the family has proof from a diplomatic liaison that he was detained.
And pointing out your rudeness is not insulting you. It's simply pointing our your rudeness.

[Dookus]

64. ah, you were almost there

but you had to throw an insult in at the end. Well I appreciate the effort anyway.

Then we agree on many things. My only point in this thread, and the one yesterday, is that SOME fundamentalist Muslims do in fact wear gold or gold-colored jewelry. I made this point in response to a very srong assertion that the murderer wearing the ring could NOT be a fundamentalist Muslim.

By showing that some fundamentalist Muslims do wear such jewelry, I have shown that the assertion is wrong.

I have made NO assertions beyond that. I did not say who the murderers were. I did not say the story we've been told is true. I merely rebutted the point that the murderer could not be a fundamentalist Muslim based on his jewelry. That's all.

[ibegurpard]

67. I see you removed your sigline

Too bad. I liked it.

[Dookus]

68. You are mistaken

My sigline is still there, but the feature has been turned off by DU.

But nice attempt to make another insult. You get points for reliability.

[ArkDem]

6. But do they use white plastic chairs?

.

[Psychlone]

8. Check Google

They wear silver, but not gold.

Those rings are silver.

<http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=gold+rings+forbidden+isl... >

Google is your friend.

[Dookus]

11. really?

every ring shown above is silver? Even the ones that appear to be gold? How did you determine that?


I was told yesterday that gold AND gold-colored jewelry would never be worn by a devout Muslim.

[QC]

20. Maybe they're "gold effect brass."

http://www.islamicjewellery.co.uk/ring.html

You're right--one can find all kinds of things on Google! ;-)

[ArkDem]

28. What has that got to do with plastic chairs?

Get glasses they are your friend.

[KittyWampus]

14. Only White Plastic APPEARING Chairs

:)

[CJCRANE]

7. Just like any religion

there's always bits that people ignore. We're all human and we've all got our vices.

[Dookus]

10. I agree, of course

but I was told yesterday that any fundamentalist Muslim man wearing gold or gold-colored jewelry was akin to an orthodox rabbi eating a ham and cheese sandwich in public.

I think that analogy is false, as demonstrated above.

[KittyWampus]

12. Hey There Dookus! Good For You ;-)

you forgot the pix of Qadafi! :)

[Dookus]

13. hehheh...

yeah, I focused this time only on Clerics and other declared fundamentalists.

[quinnox]

15. No fair using facts to spoil the fun

Watch this thread sink like a stone.

[HFishbine]

16. Yeah, but

can you find one sitting in a white plastic chair? Well, can you?

[Psychlone]

17. Your photos prove my point

Your photos show only silver rings.
Look closely, please.

[HFishbine]

18. Bionic eye for the conspiracy guy

I see, so you can tell from these photographs that even the "golden" rings are definitely silver; and from a grainy video that the jewelry is definitely gold.

[stickdog]

27. The CIA said the ring was gold.

These rings look and probably are silver in all but one case.

Finally, you are completely ignorant of fundamentalist Islamic law if you think its "kosher" for men to wear gold rings.

You might as well show us some pictures of Islamic women's faces to "prove" that they don't have to wear burkas in public.

[Dookus]

34. yes..

the CIA is reported to have said that. I don't know of any other term one would use when seeing a gold-colored ring on a grainy video.

The rings above are NOT all silver, and saying so repeatedly doesn't make it so.

Look at the bottom pic in a paint program and zoom in - you will clearly see both silver and gold-colored metals.

A few of the others are very clearly not silver.

[rinsd]

71. Now you're taking the CIA's word? (nt)

[Cassandra]

84. A silver ring in a room with yellow walls...

might appear gold. As I say below, I'm a jeweler and know my subject pretty well.

[Dookus]

19. Nonsense

First, they appear gold.

Second, you have NO possible way to determine the metallic composition of them from photographs.

Third, the argument was made that gold and GOLD-COLORED jewelry was forbidden.

Fourth, you can see in the bottom picture that the ring is both silver AND gold (colored, at least).

[hughee99]

21. Gold - Colored???

I agree that there's no way to tell the composition of the metals, but I work with several muslims (some more devout than others) but all agree that you can't wear gold. They just tend to avoid gold-colored jewelry to avoid confusion. Many wear silver or platinum rings. I do get a laugh from this every time I see a professional athlete praising Allah while wearing gold chains and a gold tooth (like Mike Tyson).

[Dookus]

22. And I, too, have known many

arabs of varying devoutness, and I have seen them wear gold. I have shown people who are clerics wearing gold, or gold-colored jewelry, even though it was asserted yesterday that even gold-colored jewelry would be taboo.

Above, somebody posted a website that sells Islamic-themed brass jewelry with "gold effect".

All of which disproves the notion that the murderer of Nick Berg shown wearing a gold-colored ring could not have been a Muslim fundamentalist.

[hughee99]

23. A Link to Koran dress code

http://www.islamtalk.net/pagedisplay.cfm/nodeid=5243.html

Though many websites sell "gold effect" brass jewelry. Which is also what that ring could be.

[Dookus]

24. correct

Which proves my point that because one of the murderers was seen wearing a gold-colored ring it doesn't prove he was not a Muslim fundamentalist, as was strongly asserted here yesterday and today.

[hughee99]

29. I agree with you

I was just hoping to inform the other posters about the Muslim dress code.

[stickdog]

30. Your point seems to be that silver is gold.

Good luck with your alchemy experiments.

[Dookus]

36. No

my point is that the rings shown are gold or gold-colored. Calling them silver doesn't make it so. A few are very very obviously gold-colored, and the bottom one is very clearly made of two metals, one gold-colored.

I'm sorry it offends you so much, but you're wrong.

[stickdog]

44. They are silver or we are looking at moderate or liberal Muslims.

But please, post some pictures of beardless Hassidic Jews for us next.

It would show the same exact sensitivity.

[Dookus]

48. This is not about insensitivity

to any religion, no matter how much you try to frame it that way.

It's a very simple answer to an assertion you made that no fundamentalist Muslim would wear gold-colored jewelry. I have proven that assertion wrong. No need to take it personally. I was wrong once, too.

[stickdog]

56. I freely admit it when I'm wrong. It happens all the time.

But you are playing parlor tricks here, and you are being highly insulting to an entire culture of millions and millions of true believers in doing so.

[Dookus]

60. I'm not insulting any culture at all

I'm not saying they should wear gold. I'm not saying anything OTHER than SOME fundamentalists DO in fact wear gold-colored rings. That's the whole enchilada - that's it. That's all I'm saying. Nothing more. Nada. Zip.

Any cultural offense is entirely on your end of it. I meant none, nor would I ever purposely offend all Muslims. My brother-in-law and his family are Muslim. I know many Muslims, and have great respect for them.

Trying to turn this argument around to my "ignorance" or "insensitivity" is misguided. I have a very narrow point to make, and I have made it.

[stickdog]

85. The only point you have made is that you are willfully ignorant of one

of the major precepts of fundamentalistic Islam.

The rings are silver in every case -- just as The Prophet of Allah demanded.

[stickdog]

26. The rings are silver.

And you revel in your own ignorance of another culture.

[ArkDem]

32. Silver rings shining in the sunlight

Roaring engines headed somewhere in flight
They're taking you away, and leaving me lonely
Silver rings slowly fading out of sight


Don't leave me I cry
Don't take that airplane ride
But you locked me out of your mind
Left me standing here behind


Silver rings shining in the sunlight
Roaring engines headed somewhere in flight
They're taking you away, and leaving me lonely
Silver rings slowly fading out of sight


Slowly fading out of sight
Slowly fading out of sight

[Dookus]

35. No...

they are not all silver.

Look closely.

And yet again, I don't understand the personal animosity. You asserted something, I provided ample evidence to disprove it. That's all.

[stickdog]

40. Dude, you would be executed like Rushdie for simply posting this

in many fundamentalist Islamic communities!

The pathetic manner in which you are reveling in your ignorance of another culture is truly American. Congratulations!

[Dookus]

42. I'm ignorant, eh?

Rushdie wasn't executed.

I make no assertions about Islamic theology. I merely have shown that some fundamentalist Muslims do in fact wear gold-colored jewelry.

Insulting me repeatedly, while perhaps enjoyable, doesn't substitute for a real argument.

[stickdog]

53. In a word, yes.

To add a few more, you are insulting and degrading an entire culture.

[Dookus]

61. Sorry...

doesn't fly, especially when you accuse ME of ignorance in the same post where you assert Salman Rushdhie was executed.

He is still alive. You were ignorant of that fact, but I wouldn't go so far as to call YOU ignorant, as you have repeatedly done to me.

My point is that Muslim fundamentalists sometimes DO wear gold-colored jewelry, and I have provided ample evidence of that. All you have done is say "It's silver!" (despite the obvious gold colors)and insult me.

[stickdog]

72. More parlor tricks.

The point was that you were insulting fundy Muslims in the same manner as Rushdie.

However, he had an artistic excuse.

[Dookus]

74. I've insulted no one

You're being melodramatic.

[stickdog]

78. I dare you to post this on any fundamentalist Muslim site on the internet.

Be sure to use your real email address.

[Dookus]

81. LOL

And I dare YOU to get over it already.

I have merely posted pictures of jewelry. YOU have managed to find offense in that, but that's not my problem - it's yours.

I could just as easily dare you to post some of your stuff on fundamentalist Christian websites, and ask you give 'em your home address. Or perhaps a White Supremacy website - give 'em your phone number.

The simple point is that gold-colored jewelry IS worn by muslim men.

[stickdog]

86. The simple point is that the rings are silver.

And trying to "prove" otherwise is like showing pictures of Hassidic Jewish leaders eating and claiming they are eating ham.

[stickdog]

37. Are you gonna believe Dookus or The Prophet of Allah on this one?

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/032.sat.html

Book 32, Number 4046:

Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib:

The Prophet of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) took silk and held it in his right hand, and took gold and held it in his left hand and said: both of these are prohibited to the males of my community.

Dookus, the way you revel in your own ignorance of fundamentalist Islam is astounding.

[Dookus]

41. sigh

Compounding personal attacks does not make your argument stronger.

I have shown amply that some fundamentalist Muslims do, in fact, wear gold or gold-colored jewelry. You are deceiving yourself if you believe every ring shown above is silver. Some are VERY obviously not silver, and one is clearly composed of two metals, one of them gold-colored.

This is not about my ignorance of Islam - it's about a very simple issue: Do fundamentalist Muslims ever wear gold-colored jewelry? The answer, as demonstrated above, is a resounding YES.

[stickdog]

51. Which photos have rings that look most like gold to you? Post them below.

I'm waiting.

The only think you have CLEARLY shown is that you think if you post a lot of pictures of Muslims wearing rings, some people will be fooled into thinking they are seeing FUNDAMENTALIST Muslims wearing GOLD rings.

And that's both pathetic and ignorant.

[Dookus]

54. They are posted above

Anyone can see for themselves. I have said in this thread a few times that you can clearly see in the bottom picture that the ring is made of TWO different metals, one of which appears gold.

And can you make a point without insulting me? Just wondering.

[stickdog]

57. More parlor tricks?

Put up the ones that you think look most like gold below or shut up.

[Dookus]

65. I see no need to post what is already posted.

There should be a scroll-bar on the right side of the window you're looking at. If you move it to the top of the page, you will see the pictures I refer to.

But, just to be clear, you should take special notice (as I've said at least three times in this thread) of the bottom picture: it clearly shows TWO metals, one of them gold-colored. Also, the second picture of Ayatollah Khamenei, in which he's standing before a blue and yellow banner, is clearly gold-colored.

[stickdog]

73. Picture #1

It's an artifact of the photo hue. Note that the silver microphone also appears to be "golden."

[stickdog]

75. Picture #2

The ring part (band) is clearly silver. You can't tell what is mounted, though I admit that it looks like it could possibly be gold or golden.

Summary of best evidence: WOEFUL.

[interceptor]

69. So are you

Not all "fundamentalist" Muslims ascribe to the same Hadiths. The Hadiths describe the main differences between them.

[stickdog]

76. This is one of the most widely ascribed to Hadiths

http://groups.msn.com/Mauminz/brotherzpage3.msnw

Can I Wear a GOLD RING?

Gold is haraam for men so does that include platinum, white gold and the other sorts of it and I heard that men are allowed to wear gold for their wedding day only is it true

Answer:

1. Men are only allowed to wear silver, hence, the wearing of platinum and white gold is not permissible for men.

2. Men are not allowed to wear gold for any occasion.

Mufti Ebrahim Desai

[DU GrovelBot]

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[camero]

50. A small detail that I noticed

The rings on the left hand of the whole bunch are all the same design. I just thought that was odd and maybe there was somebody who could see that and what design it is.

Good research.

[stickdog]

58. Dude, if you want to do some research on the practices of Islamic

fundmentalists, perhaps you might try cracking a book on the subject?

Because what you will find is that men are prohibited from wearing gold and silk.

[camero]

59. Dude chill out

I was just asking a question. I'm not interested in whether they can wear gold or not. Next time you insult me the alert button is gonna get hit and hard.

[rinsd]

70. The bible forbids Christians from killing.....

...your point?

[stickdog]

79. My point is simply that seeing a fundamentalist Muslim male wearing a gold

ring in public is like seeing a Hassidic Jew eating a ham & cheese at your local deli.

That's my only point, and it's WILLFULLY IGNORANT to dispute it.

[CJCRANE]

91. Maybe they all bought the rings from

the same store that sells those ubiquitous white chairs.

[noiretextatique]

63. look more like silver than gold to me eom

[Dookus]

66. really?

This looks silver to you?



And take this picture into a paint program and zoom in on the ring. You will see clearly that it is composed of two different metals, one of which is gold-colored.

[stickdog]

77. Yes, really.

Note the mike is also "golden" (glare or photo hue artifact) in the top picture and the ring part (band) is clearly silver in the bottom picture.

What is mounted in the bottom picture is almost certainly a stone. Why do I say this? BECAUSE FUNDAMENTALIST MUSLIM MEN CAN'T WEAR GOLD RINGS.

[Dookus]

82. eppur si muove

[Cassandra]

83. The one of Khamenei...

the eighth picture from the top, is the one that looks the most like gold, however, if that yellow banner continues around the walls, it would cause a gold-colored reflection on silver. As a jeweler, I can tell you that photographing white metals can be tricky, since they reflect everything.
Additionally, given that so many here know the prohibition against men wearing gold, I doubt they could get away with doing so in public.

[Astarho]

87. Most of those rings

look like silver to me. The only ones that look gold are the Ayatollahs', and Shiites follow different Hadith than Sunnis (if anyone knows more about this feel free to explain).

[MoonRiver]

88. It's like asking: do fundamentalist Muslims commit jihad against innocents

The official answer is NOOOOOOOO. But we are sadly aware of the many exceptions.

Hypocrisy abounds in the Muslim as well as Christian religions.